Posted on May 12, 2015
How many of us have seen closed-doors racism in the military?
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I don't have any links or surveys, just personal experiences.
From my observations, racism is alive in the military, particularly among officers. I don't know why it seems that way, but my guess would be that there are more minorities in the enlisted ranks?
My own observations mostly involved Marines; the interesting part was that they would - only behind closed doors - say some pretty awful things about nearly any minority you could imagine, including other Marines, but not a single one of them ever said any of those things about their own subordinates or teammates.
I've witnessed it a lot with the Army as well, a little bit with the Navy, and almost not at all with the Air Force. Is it perhaps just a grunt-centric attitude that they want to shock people with what they say, maybe? They say rough things for shock value, and don't act on those words? I'm not entirely convinced.
I've had plenty of friends - particularly while I was in college - who would say any awful thing necessary to get a good laugh from a group. Is that what this is? Or is there something else behind it?
Now's your chance to either sound off about how you feel, or set the story straight.
From my observations, racism is alive in the military, particularly among officers. I don't know why it seems that way, but my guess would be that there are more minorities in the enlisted ranks?
My own observations mostly involved Marines; the interesting part was that they would - only behind closed doors - say some pretty awful things about nearly any minority you could imagine, including other Marines, but not a single one of them ever said any of those things about their own subordinates or teammates.
I've witnessed it a lot with the Army as well, a little bit with the Navy, and almost not at all with the Air Force. Is it perhaps just a grunt-centric attitude that they want to shock people with what they say, maybe? They say rough things for shock value, and don't act on those words? I'm not entirely convinced.
I've had plenty of friends - particularly while I was in college - who would say any awful thing necessary to get a good laugh from a group. Is that what this is? Or is there something else behind it?
Now's your chance to either sound off about how you feel, or set the story straight.
Leadership
Racism
Officers
NCOs
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 28
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I believe LCDR (Join to see) this is another "it depends" answer. I did not look at your results thus far, nor could I vote, as none of your options are in line with my thinking.
These are my thoughts. My thoughts are that of a poor white kid from NJ, the son of single mom, who enlisted in the Army, went to OCS and served for almost 33 years (32 years, 11 months, 16 days).
1. I believe Racism will always exist, but I also believe we are far better today than we were in 1948. But, I also know we are not there yet. We are light years ahead of the rest of America. I believe off color comments become less and less acceptable, so perhaps the hardliners do go behind closed doors. I also know Soldiers know the rules and know how to talk the talk and ensure it they do have character flaws, they keep those beliefs close hold. I was never in that crowd. I also aggressively dealt with any behavior contrary to Army Values and AR 600-20.
2. I believe your racial perspective has to do with where you came from in America; life circumstances and location. My HS was 60% black and 40% white. So, when I arrived at Fort McClellan Alabama at MP OSUT in 1980, and joined 4th Platoon in an open bay... I was amazed/confused some were appalled they had to sleep in the same room as black Soldiers; they used other words. I now live in Mid - Missouri, and within 10 miles of hear most black Soldiers are less than welcome. It is like you go back in time when drive away from this military community. I get that. I don't like it, but this about what goes in the military not the community at large.
3. Racism is also a two way street. If you ask most Soldiers what racial discrimination is, they will most likely define it as the white majority oppressing the black minority; try it. The Army also knows, but will not acknowledge, that reverse discrimination also exists is largely ignored; some will call this "the Army's Dirty Little Secret." That is, turning your cheek to discrimination that does not fight the stereotype.
eg. In Jul of 2005 I gave an sub-standard OER (evaluation) to Lieutenant who was involved in a sexual assault; charged by Army CID for his involvement and for lying to CID. Clearly an Army Values failure. Well, in no time it was an EO complaint, and eventually an DAIG and DODIG whistleblower reprisal case. I ended up being Flagged (suspended from favorable actions - in limbo) for over 3years (Jul 06 to Sep 09), until the DODIG finally overturned/reversed everything. The Vice Chief of Staff himself called me to essentially tell me the Army got this wrong, and all would be fixed. All was cleared and restored on 28 Sep 09, and I was finally promoted 19 months late (yes, I got back pay) and returned to command list. The LT was black, my XO was black (the actual antagonist), and my Brigade Commander was black. They all argued (lied) that I gave this LT a bad OER because he was black, and because he made an EO complaint about the OER. No mention of the Sexual Assault nor lying to the CID. That LT... was passed over from promotion to CPT and is now out.
I have not personally seen behind closed doors racism, as I would not allow it or stand for it. But, I know racism unfortunately still exists. But, remember too, it takes on many forms.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/desegregation/large/#1948
Added some RP colleagues as this topic is important to me and I am interested in your perspectives.
COL Jean (John) F. B. Cpl Michael Grubbs Col Joseph Lenertz CSM Michael J. Uhlig CPT (Join to see) MAJ (Join to see) CPT Aaron Kletzing Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS SGT (Join to see) 1LT Sandy Annala TSgt Hunter Logan GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas COL Wade Dennis COL (Join to see) Capt Christopher Mueller SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA COL Vincent Stoneking LCDR Rabbi Jaron Matlow SGT (Join to see) CW5 (Join to see) Cpl Anthony Pearson LTC Yinon Weiss SFC Mark Merino LTC Paul HeinleinSFC Mark Merino LTC Yinon Weiss MAJ (Join to see) CPT Aaron Kletzing Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas CSM Michael J. Uhlig CSM (Join to see) COL Vincent Stoneking COL (Join to see) SGT (Join to see) TSgt Joshua Copeland COL Jean (John) F. B. Col Joseph Lenertz SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSG James J. Palmer IVSPC Jeff Daley, PhD Col Michael Grubbs, Ph.D., LMFT-S SPC Jeff Daley, PhD
These are my thoughts. My thoughts are that of a poor white kid from NJ, the son of single mom, who enlisted in the Army, went to OCS and served for almost 33 years (32 years, 11 months, 16 days).
1. I believe Racism will always exist, but I also believe we are far better today than we were in 1948. But, I also know we are not there yet. We are light years ahead of the rest of America. I believe off color comments become less and less acceptable, so perhaps the hardliners do go behind closed doors. I also know Soldiers know the rules and know how to talk the talk and ensure it they do have character flaws, they keep those beliefs close hold. I was never in that crowd. I also aggressively dealt with any behavior contrary to Army Values and AR 600-20.
2. I believe your racial perspective has to do with where you came from in America; life circumstances and location. My HS was 60% black and 40% white. So, when I arrived at Fort McClellan Alabama at MP OSUT in 1980, and joined 4th Platoon in an open bay... I was amazed/confused some were appalled they had to sleep in the same room as black Soldiers; they used other words. I now live in Mid - Missouri, and within 10 miles of hear most black Soldiers are less than welcome. It is like you go back in time when drive away from this military community. I get that. I don't like it, but this about what goes in the military not the community at large.
3. Racism is also a two way street. If you ask most Soldiers what racial discrimination is, they will most likely define it as the white majority oppressing the black minority; try it. The Army also knows, but will not acknowledge, that reverse discrimination also exists is largely ignored; some will call this "the Army's Dirty Little Secret." That is, turning your cheek to discrimination that does not fight the stereotype.
eg. In Jul of 2005 I gave an sub-standard OER (evaluation) to Lieutenant who was involved in a sexual assault; charged by Army CID for his involvement and for lying to CID. Clearly an Army Values failure. Well, in no time it was an EO complaint, and eventually an DAIG and DODIG whistleblower reprisal case. I ended up being Flagged (suspended from favorable actions - in limbo) for over 3years (Jul 06 to Sep 09), until the DODIG finally overturned/reversed everything. The Vice Chief of Staff himself called me to essentially tell me the Army got this wrong, and all would be fixed. All was cleared and restored on 28 Sep 09, and I was finally promoted 19 months late (yes, I got back pay) and returned to command list. The LT was black, my XO was black (the actual antagonist), and my Brigade Commander was black. They all argued (lied) that I gave this LT a bad OER because he was black, and because he made an EO complaint about the OER. No mention of the Sexual Assault nor lying to the CID. That LT... was passed over from promotion to CPT and is now out.
I have not personally seen behind closed doors racism, as I would not allow it or stand for it. But, I know racism unfortunately still exists. But, remember too, it takes on many forms.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/desegregation/large/#1948
Added some RP colleagues as this topic is important to me and I am interested in your perspectives.
COL Jean (John) F. B. Cpl Michael Grubbs Col Joseph Lenertz CSM Michael J. Uhlig CPT (Join to see) MAJ (Join to see) CPT Aaron Kletzing Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS SGT (Join to see) 1LT Sandy Annala TSgt Hunter Logan GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas COL Wade Dennis COL (Join to see) Capt Christopher Mueller SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA COL Vincent Stoneking LCDR Rabbi Jaron Matlow SGT (Join to see) CW5 (Join to see) Cpl Anthony Pearson LTC Yinon Weiss SFC Mark Merino LTC Paul HeinleinSFC Mark Merino LTC Yinon Weiss MAJ (Join to see) CPT Aaron Kletzing Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas CSM Michael J. Uhlig CSM (Join to see) COL Vincent Stoneking COL (Join to see) SGT (Join to see) TSgt Joshua Copeland COL Jean (John) F. B. Col Joseph Lenertz SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSG James J. Palmer IVSPC Jeff Daley, PhD Col Michael Grubbs, Ph.D., LMFT-S SPC Jeff Daley, PhD
Truman Library: Desegregation of the Armed Forces Online Research File
September 1945: Secretary of War Robert P. Patterson appoints a board of three general officers to investigate the Army's policy with respect to African-Americans and to prepare a new policy that would provide for the efficient use of African-Americans in the Army. This board is called the Gillem Board, after its chairman, General Alvan C. Gillem, Jr.
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COL Charles Williams
Try my question. Ask any group to define discrimination or racial discrimination. You will be amazed with the prevailing answers. MSgt Brian Welch
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SSG (Join to see)
Sir I am sorry that you had to deal with that. Also I see that you are in waynesville, MO. I am from St. Louis and I was stationed at Fort Lenoard wood as well and it is a shame that my home state is that way. I only hope and pray that as time goes on that it will change.
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SGT (Join to see)
Okay, here we go.
1. Minorities in the enlisted ranks:
You have to look at the demographics of those enrolled in college. We know in order to be a candidate for OCS, you have to have education pass the 12 years. Agreed??
15 % of those enrolled in college at the moment are African American.
14% of those enrolled in college are Hispanic.
6 % of those enrolled in college are Asian.
.9% of those enrolled in college are Indian/Alaskan Natives.
That means 64.1% of those enrolled in college, at the moment, are Caucasian.
So NO, I don't think it is because of some sort of racism. I think it is because the amount of those having had 12+ years of education is limited. ALSO, I had an AAS in chemistry when I joined the military and I was enlisted. That was just my preference and it might be that to some others as well.
2. I believe everyone is guilty of racism in some form or fashion. We would like to exclaim "No we aren't!" But, to be totally honest, every one of us have that bone. Probably b/c of something we might've experienced or the basic, your family taught you to be this way. Not a one of us are born that way... It is taught. So I would conclude that everyone probably talks about everyone behind closed doors. We are not all saints.
3. I have never witnessed the whole racism thing. But what I did witness was the whole Mason group. That was about the dumbest thing I saw and witnessed in the military. I mean, for real... A secret society within a family??? I guess I will never get it.
But I will NEVER be threatened and my not react. No matter your rank, if you threaten to put your hands on me, it is on! And because your Mason friend was the one that did it doesn't mean I should get into trouble because I was going to defend myself. You tell me you are going to kick my ass, I am going to tell you to bring it!
Anyways, that's my 411. I'm looking forward to the vote downs. LOL
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_306.20.asp
1. Minorities in the enlisted ranks:
You have to look at the demographics of those enrolled in college. We know in order to be a candidate for OCS, you have to have education pass the 12 years. Agreed??
15 % of those enrolled in college at the moment are African American.
14% of those enrolled in college are Hispanic.
6 % of those enrolled in college are Asian.
.9% of those enrolled in college are Indian/Alaskan Natives.
That means 64.1% of those enrolled in college, at the moment, are Caucasian.
So NO, I don't think it is because of some sort of racism. I think it is because the amount of those having had 12+ years of education is limited. ALSO, I had an AAS in chemistry when I joined the military and I was enlisted. That was just my preference and it might be that to some others as well.
2. I believe everyone is guilty of racism in some form or fashion. We would like to exclaim "No we aren't!" But, to be totally honest, every one of us have that bone. Probably b/c of something we might've experienced or the basic, your family taught you to be this way. Not a one of us are born that way... It is taught. So I would conclude that everyone probably talks about everyone behind closed doors. We are not all saints.
3. I have never witnessed the whole racism thing. But what I did witness was the whole Mason group. That was about the dumbest thing I saw and witnessed in the military. I mean, for real... A secret society within a family??? I guess I will never get it.
But I will NEVER be threatened and my not react. No matter your rank, if you threaten to put your hands on me, it is on! And because your Mason friend was the one that did it doesn't mean I should get into trouble because I was going to defend myself. You tell me you are going to kick my ass, I am going to tell you to bring it!
Anyways, that's my 411. I'm looking forward to the vote downs. LOL
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_306.20.asp
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Lt Col Jim Coe
My observation is similar to yours. I grew up in a segregated school system and attended a majority-white university. There were no black officers in my pilot training class. The first time I talked to a black person for more than a few seconds was talking with our SSgt loadmaster as a 1 Lt copilot. I learned more from a Lt Col pilot I flew with for a few months. He had a great way of using humor to explain what it was like to be black in America.
The Travis AFB race riots caused the AF to start mandatory race relations training. For the first time I learned what I'd missed in my upbringing.
I never experienced closed door racism on active duty. As s DAC, I was the only non-minority division chief in our Directorate. I was treated equal to my peers.
The Travis AFB race riots caused the AF to start mandatory race relations training. For the first time I learned what I'd missed in my upbringing.
I never experienced closed door racism on active duty. As s DAC, I was the only non-minority division chief in our Directorate. I was treated equal to my peers.
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I have never heard of racist jokes in private or public. Could be because I am a minority myself, but in 21 years in the army, I have been free of that terrible behavior.
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I'm glad to hear your experience with the AF proved negative for this situation. I spent 20 years in the AF and never saw any incidences of this involving anyone of rank, enlisted or officer. I may have seen younger folks act up a bit while in a bar drinking or what not but those moments didn't center around race as I recall. It always impressed me actually, that it was quite amazing that all these people from all different walks of life and backgrounds came together and functioned as a team so well.
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