How many times do you use physical corrective training to help a soldier correct deficiencies before using negative counseling statements?

2019-04-02T11:32:13-04:00

I personally believe good ole push-ups will address the issues soldiers have with being on time, subpar customs/courtesies, and general lack of professionalism (along with verbal communication on expectations following said incident). What are your thoughts and/or methods in discipline?

Response by CPT Ray Gilmore made Apr 2 at 2019 12:04 PM

2019-04-02T12:04:07-04:00

Dependent upon Rank and the level of stupidity involved in the soldiers mistake, and the culture of the unit.

METT-C

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 12:08 PM

2019-04-02T12:08:21-04:00

As the regs state that the corrective training must meet/match the infraction, I am a firm believer in education of the mind while cramping the hell out of the hand. I assign essays that are to cover the infraction, the disciplinary actions that can occur, the negative effects the infraction(s) can have on the unit (whether this be section, squad, platoon, etc.). This essay is to be written in pen, in print, no errors of ANY kind, and 500 words.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Apr 2 at 2019 12:13 PM

2019-04-02T12:13:35-04:00

At some point that individual does need to sat down with and the issue addressed and if it continues corrective action may well be in order. I always tried to handle these problems within My section and on eon one sessions usual worked as opposed to out in public in front of His peers. You don't need to make a fool of Yourself to get a point across to another. there are of course some time peer pressure may work but be careful there. Problems can sure be mentioned to and entire gathering but holding up and individual and naming Hi isn't a good idea. I do expect people will make mistakes, that what human beings do. I also feel if a person did several good things then made a mistake once the object shouldn't be to hang Him. Never do anything without talking to them first, there may be more to the story than You actually know and maybe that will even resolve the problem if there even was one. Also don't take the cowards way out and delegate it to another person that had nothing to do with it in the first place, handle it Yourself. I'm not talking about micro managing, use You supervisors but also have their back and IF they can handle the situation fine. If it had to go further then the First Sergeant and Commander may need to become involved and perhaps an Article 15 would be in order for constant repeat violators.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Apr 2 at 2019 12:34 PM

2019-04-02T12:34:01-04:00

It really depends on the soldier in question and the infraction. Also corrective training indicates a lack of proper execution of a given task, so the corrective training would be to fix said deciency.

That said what I always fell back to was a 3 pronged approach.

1: A counseling statement wherein the SM was counseled on the infraction. Proper guidelines and expectations were laid out as well as appropriate regulations cited therein.

2: Immediate corrective action in the form of the soldier being in the front leaning rest and knocking out push-ups, situps, etc.,

3: Corrective training in the form appropriate to the infraction.

THis both teaches a lesson, trains the soldier, sets and example and as necessary provides a solid paper trail in the event that the soldier needs to be removed from the service.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 12:37 PM

2019-04-02T12:37:24-04:00

I would say it depends, on A the soldier, B the infraction. hell I knew some guys 1000 push ups were not going to correct a damn thing, plus push ups alone are not the answer to much of anything with some sort of overall plan depending on what happened.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 12:37 PM

2019-04-02T12:37:54-04:00

Twice. If after two corrections they can't pull their head out of their 4th point of contact they need something more permanent to refer back too.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 1:13 PM

2019-04-02T13:13:03-04:00

A Bar to re-enlistment works wonders.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Apr 2 at 2019 1:20 PM

2019-04-02T13:20:19-04:00

Dropping a soldier for push ups is not going to fix a bad soldier. NCOs often use the push up as a crutch for weak leadership. You need to know your subordinates and know what does not work and what works in getting their attention. If Joe forgets to button (Velcro) a pocket and you simply want his attention a judicious “knock em out” can be used as an attention getter. If however, that same Joe is habitually late for work, has a negative attitude, and is a subpar performer, then those ten push ups are meaningless.

Leaders must spend time getting to know their soldiers. They must also learn how to be leaders. You cannot lead soldiers simply by “smoking” soldiers. Respect is earned. Trust is earned. If your soldiers respect and trust you, more often than not, you have 90% of your job done before you even show up for morning formation.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Apr 2 at 2019 1:33 PM

2019-04-02T13:33:31-04:00

Being an Air Force guy I never used nor received this sort of thing. For us, it was straight counselling, followed by administrative or disciplinary action if there was no improvement. I guess you have to use whatever works most effectively, but keep in mind that while push-ups and the like seem quite useful for immediate correction on the spot, more serious problems most likely would be better served by a counselling-centered approach. The reason is simple. Bad behavior usually has a motivation. With more serious issues, that motivation has to be addressed and corrected. While push-ups can discourage behavior, they do little to address the underlying motivation. This is all stuff straight from BF Skinner and classic behaviorism. But with more serious issues, you have to take the cognitive processes into consideration.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 2 at 2019 1:43 PM

2019-04-02T13:43:19-04:00

The old army had some doozies for punishment. I talked to a CSM and asked if he ever effed up as a soldier. I chuckled as he replied yes, and was told by his CSM to mow a parade field with scissors. He said he never made a mistake again lol

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Apr 2 at 2019 1:45 PM

2019-04-02T13:45:43-04:00

Different world today.

Way back then, a great 1SG of PVT/SPC Rivera used to say: “F**ker, you have two options... work like a Hebrew slave building pyramids for me for the next 2 months or get slammed with an Article 15 with complimentary restrictions, extra duty, loss of income, and rank!” Great dude if you ask me.

Folks learned to stay in the hard but righteous way of doing military business!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 2:42 PM

2019-04-02T14:42:17-04:00

If a soldier has a history of being a problematic soldier, I think the best solution is to generate a paper trail to help ensure that soldier gets kicked out of the army sooner then later. Corrective training (of any type) won't fix soldiers who don't want to improve.

If the soldier is otherwise a decent soldier, I strive to make the training relevant to the offense.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 2 at 2019 3:00 PM

2019-04-02T15:00:52-04:00

Push ups are fine as long as you are dropping with them. Other than that the discipline should match the issue. I.e., failure to salute, conduct research and write a short paper on the history and purpose for the salute etc. as for written counseling that is case by case. Thank you for your service.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 2 at 2019 3:52 PM

2019-04-02T15:52:35-04:00

As a tangent, Collin Powell described the old army as a place where the unit punishes the soldier, not the CG. As a LT he lost his 45, which was found later. You do that today and your done.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 5:43 PM

2019-04-02T17:43:16-04:00

I've never used physical corrective training. If I have time to waste watching a service member conduct corrective training, I also have time to document their activities, better my counseling skills, and cover my 6.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Apr 2 at 2019 5:43 PM

2019-04-02T17:43:46-04:00

I can't resist. I just have to tell you how things were handled back in the old Black Boot Army.
In the mid-60's I was in Heidelberg, Germany. We had a 1sgt who shall go unnamed that was a Veteran of WWII and Korea.
Every Monday morning we had a "work-call" formation.
If we had any newbies come in over the past week, Top gave the same speech:
My name is First Sergeant K*****Y. I f***ing run this G-damned company. Yes, the Captain commands it, but I RUN it. As long as any of you sorry-a**ed wannbe soldiers are in MY company, you will heed my orders.
Now, for those who may not agree with my policies and orders, I will be out behind the barracks for the next 10 minutes. That should be sufficient time to resolve any issues you may have.
Now, pay attention (and he would make any pertinent announcements, then;
Dismissed!

If there were no newbies that week, he would just come out, call us to attention, and if there was nothing pertinent, he would dismiss us.
In the 2 years he was my first-shirt, I only knew of one time somebody went behind the barracks. Top came out front in about 2 minutes and called for a few guys to go "help" the soldier, who, Top claimed, must have slipped and fallen.

I would add though, Top would go to hell and back for "his " troops when they needed his assistance.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Apr 2 at 2019 6:08 PM

2019-04-02T18:08:10-04:00

Honestly, it depends on the Soldier. Some Soldiers won't learn through push-ups (and they are hard to use in today's Army).
Some Soldiers won't learn from "worthless pieces of paper."
Even though there are very limited circumstances when PT can be used anymore, there are still creative "punishment fits the crime" ways to "train the mind and body.". But only if that Soldier responds to that kind of correction.

When I was a young PV2, I lost pounds of sweat every month. And I learned a LOT of lessons.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 8:09 PM

2019-04-02T20:09:24-04:00

I never used it. (Experienced it, but never used it.) I had two Soldiers with sub-10-minute 2 mile run times drop out of a six mile, _slow_ ruck run do a 12-mile ruckmarch with me around Schofield Barracks once on a Saturday morning, which was physical, but directly-related to the issue at hand. You don't use it in the corporate professional world. My view is that it is generally only appropriate in a training environment (a formal school) and is generally a very light and ineffective way of correcting. Many Soldiers take it as fun and games, which defeats the purpose.

An alternative that I used on more than one occasion was to require a Soldier to write an essay on the subject of his deficiency and check in with the staff duty desk during the evening to show forward progress on the assignment and to give me the completed work in the morning. That brings the subject matter to the forefront of the activity and it takes up an evening. Never had to do it twice with the same Soldier.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2019 10:34 PM

2019-04-02T22:34:38-04:00

As a former SSG, I never used physical punishment in the traditional way because my NCOIC wouldnt allow it. Instead I made the worst PT session possible with extra time. Moreover, I forced the Soldiers to learn every PRT drill by heart all the way to CD3. I cant smoke you but PT sure can.
If that didnt straighten them out or give them a hint they were politely reminded that promotion rests in my and 1SG hands. If I say you are trash, 1SG wont circle yes on that monthly report.
Putting stuff on paper only happened to Soldiers who just did not care or didnt want to be in the Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2019 3:42 AM

2019-04-03T03:42:00-04:00

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Pushups work, but they're just one tool. As you gain more experience you get better at figuring out how to fix the problem by finding more creative solutions. Sometimes you do just need to beat a horse with a stick. More often, you just need to train them better.
Thats not to disparage pushups and burpees. I had an extremely in-shape squad when I was a senior medic because my corrective training was swift and merciless. But we were deploying with fresh out of AIT medics who couldn't pass a PT test. There was a reason to be ruthless; so they could learn fast and get stronger immediately. Once they were competent, I backed off and focused on the how and why, and teaching them how to come up with creative solutions on their own rather than follow my directions.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2019 7:30 AM

2019-04-03T07:30:49-04:00

That it is probably not authorized per AR 600-20, para. 4-6b(1) - The training, instruction, or correction given to a Soldier to correct deficiencies must be directly related to the deficiency. It must be oriented to improving the Soldier’s performance in their problem area. Corrective measures may be taken after normal duty hours. Such measures assume the nature of training or instruction, not punishment. Corrective training should continue only until the training deficiency is overcome. Authority to use it is part of the inherent powers of command.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2019 5:39 PM

2019-04-04T17:39:49-04:00

Unfortunately the regulation doesn’t really not allow much rigorous corrective training as we are limited to a few exercises in FM 7-22 and for only five repetitions. I have had a soldier do front leaning rests until I have them push them out which seem to do the job in getting my point across, but I only do it once as it’s not as effective on fit soldiers. I’ve learned that documentation is more effective because it builds an unfavorable record that is tangible and damaging overviewed by a board for schooling or promotions. I say your shooting yourself and career in the foot by not doing the right thing. But that’s just me. S

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2019 5:17 PM

2019-04-05T17:17:06-04:00

I am a big supporter of physical corrective action to fix minor issues. With that said, a repeat of minor issues requires a paper trail, I want to know exactly what a person is messing up so I can find out why and fix it. With that said, physical corrective action can not be too harsh because you don’t want to units climate to one that lacks morale. Be understanding and reasonable.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2019 11:55 PM

2019-04-05T23:55:27-04:00

Most of the time corrective training will do the trick, most soldiers I have are good soldiers and will respond well to corrective training I personally don't want to leave a trail of paperwork that a future NCO of their's could exploit if said NCO likes to power trip

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 17 at 2019 7:01 AM

2019-05-17T07:01:00-04:00

Give them a place to eat
Shower. No booze. Cigs. For a week. No article 15

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jun 11 at 2019 8:43 AM

2019-06-11T08:43:22-04:00

I seem to be typing this a lot lately. Physical training should be Physical training and used to Correct low PT Scores. Basically it has zero use as a corrective action for other infringements. It does work for immediate correction for minor violations such as Chatter during formation. The Corrective action should Justify the Infringement as a leader you should be willing to give of yourself to set the example.
If a soldier is having trouble showing up on time counsel them Put in a plan of attack that moves the Soldier in the right direction "Your report time will be 04:00hrs every morning" for PT you will report to me the PT field ready to be the Demonstrator for the PT, This way if you are a no show I will have reaction time to find out where you are and take steps to get you where your supposed to be on time and in uniform you will have something to do for the Hour before PT formation starts Practice so you don't embarrass yourself.

Custom and Courtesies "You have a class to train the entire Company on Customs and Courtesies" it is on the Training form get it prepared get back with me (Date and time place) we will look at your lesson plan and you can teach me the class in advance so we know you are ready to give the class I will be your assistant trainer.

This is not Rocket Science as a Leader you need to always be Proactive with Soldiers for corrective action or teaching the basics. Document with counseling. Leaders see counseling as bad these days it's actually not, it's an amazing tool you set goals for your S/M's and use bullet comments on both good and bad. Counseling is a Written record and Guidance for S/M's so they know what they are doing right an where they have to improve.

In my opinion there is no worse leader than the one that writes counseling for only bad behavior and a yearly review, so you do everything wrong for a year and then all you hear is bad where is my monthly counseling so I know what I need to do to get that next Promotion?
JMTC thanks for reading.

Response by Cpl Lapumo Muskets made Jun 28 at 2019 12:54 PM

2019-06-28T12:54:41-04:00

Depends on the Infraction. Performance that effects the Unit as a whole must be considered. I can't have an entire Unit of 90 Pound weaklings that are Great Soldiers or Soldiers that can't shoot. PT of an Entire Unit can be stepped up to curb Attitude issues. Even extended hours should be considered, for the Entire Unit.