How much of a problem will the new Army Combat Fitness Test be for the part-time force?

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:11:10 -0400

The full time component Soldiers will have daily opportunities to practice the events that will be included in the test. It is already a challenge to get RC Soldiers to pass the current test. I believe the national average is under 80% (I have been in units where the BN average was as low as 74%). An now we need to try and find a way to train on deadlift and medicine ball tosses? "Well get a gym membership", is a likely response. And for some that is a legitimate option, but for many that COA is constrained by budget concerns as well as the reality of time constraints that comes with juggling two careers. If you are not in the Reserves (and I assume NG) then you really can't appreciate how much time is spent between your40-50 hour job, Military obligations outside of drill weekends, and for some, throw in school.

It used to be fairly easy, if you had the motivation, to get up 45 minutes early and go for a short run or crank out a few sets of push ups or sit ups, or do some core exercises. Now what...GO to the back yard with your medicine ball that you somehow acquired and toss it about? I don't know that many who have a full set of weights in their home. I have a small set of bar bells and a kettle ball that I use, but not for deadlifts.

It will be interesting to see where passing score averages go when this becomes fully implemented.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2018 9:19 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:19:09 -0400

They say the 2 events cause more injury than what is proposed. I am 55 and it is easy for me to get a 273. I foresee more injuries.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2018 9:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:29:07 -0400

Canada beat us to the punch on similar wartime tasks in the new p.t. test.

https://globalnews.ca/video/831872/new-fitness-testing-for-canadian-forces-members

New fitness testing for Canadian Forces members | Watch News Videos Online

Watch New fitness testing for Canadian Forces members Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 21 at 2018 9:45 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:45:00 -0400

How much time to administer new APFT?

Response by LTC David Brown made Jul 21 at 2018 10:03 PM

LTC David Brown — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:03:20 -0400

I often felt a time crunch when I was active Duty. We were supposed to have “ blood on the OR floor by 7:30. That meant we had to be to work and moving around 6 AM to set up room and evaluate patient, start IV’s etc. we would get out of work at 4 ish. Then home to deal with stuff there. Maintaining our medical career and practice required more time plus doing your military ticket punches. I see this s going to add more stress. Thank God I’m retired.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 21 at 2018 10:39 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:39:45 -0400

There is no such thing as a part time force. When we enlist we accept the standards associated with service. Fitness is core with a many walks of life. You can meet the standards if you train to be fit. Thank you for your service.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jul 22 at 2018 9:14 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:14:21 -0400

OK, let me be the naysayer here. The biggest difference in the program is the increased emphasis on strength training and that takes less time that maintaining your aerobic fitness. Gym memberships are cheap and you can find a number of two day split weight programs that take about 30 minutes or less that work just fine. You do not have to spend hours a day in the gym to strength train. I'm 62, former National Guard, work 9 hours plus shifts and have a 2.5 hour commute time on the current project, and I still make it to the gym 4 times a week or more. I did almost the same program when I was still active reserve, just had a more stringent aerobic routine.
I was 40 when I went IRR and I was still scoring over 270 on the 21 year old scale. I can post my current routine if that interest you.
WARNING. Free Weights are ADDICTIVE.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Jul 22 at 2018 9:35 AM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:35:30 -0400

You either meet the standard or you don't. No one said that these "soldiers" had to go for the reserves or guard. If they have a test coming up they better be prepared for it or suffer the consequences for failure to meet the standard.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 22 at 2018 9:11 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:11:42 -0400

I'm sorry, but the standard is the standard for all, not just some. Think outside the box- when in the Sinai we made barbells out of rods with cans filled with concrete. You will comply with the standard, so get the folks thinking outside the box.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Jul 23 at 2018 12:11 PM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:11:48 -0400

The Army is about to get 50% less and this will weed woman out if it is the same standard. That test should be the same standard just like women going to RANGER school, I heard they dropped the standards for RANGER school because of women is that true?

Response by PO2 Bill Kuiper made Jul 23 at 2018 4:24 PM

PO2 Bill Kuiper — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:24:11 -0400

When you are called up, you are FULL TIME. Be ready!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2018 6:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:06:54 -0400

You are always a soldier regardless of AD, USAR or ARNG, but USAR and NG soldiers are essentially part time. The skills, discipline, standard and professionalism should be on all the time though.

I am a former Reserve TPU soldier with 2 years AD under MEDDAC and TRADOC. I am now AGR in the Reserves. I see two major flaws with the new APFT.

1. You cannot practice the new test anywhere, anytime. Sure, you can get a medicine ball for cheap or use sandbags to toss but a deadlift set up... Not cheap even on the cheap.

Used plates in my area, when I can find them are $0.40-0.75 a pound. I have looked at super shitty used bars for $50 but I've seen slightly less shitty new bars on Amazon for around the same price. If you wand to build a platform itll run about $250 if you use your military discount at Home Depot. Or you can use 4 horse stall mats for about $100. Still, if a soldier bought all this, they are still limited with using it at home only. A majority of soldiers travel amd hour or more to drill so even if the unit left enough equipment out for soldiers to use, it wouldnt be used much. Some units dont even have space for a small gym. Out of 560 soldiers in my battalion, about 150 to 200 of those can barely afford the gas to come to drill.

2. THE DEADLIFT...
Let me preface that I have a background in bodybilding and have been dabbling in powerlifting for the last year. I also have a medical background with a good chunk of my education spent on gross anatomy and body mechanics.

The deadlift is a highly technical lift that a majority of people perform incorrectly. Sure any schmo should be able to grip and rip their bodyweight with a relatively low risk of injury but we all know these couch potatos or desk jockeys are gonna pound a couple scoops of pre workout monsters and try for 300 or heaven forbid the max when they have no busines attempting that weight. This is asking for hernias and herniated disks and someay have vaso vagal responses and pass TF out and hurt their dome.

Each lifter also has a unique deadlift set up due to their body habitus, height, grip preferences and stance preference. Im going to assume the Army will push out a standardized set up which can cause injury. Max or min foot width, overhand, hook or mixed grip and knee and hip angle standards. Sumo lifters are gonna love it... Not. There is no cookie cutter set up amd the the fatty who can't even do 20lb dumbell curls has no business judging technique and neither does the endurance runner who's never met the free weights. The deadlift is just a recipe for disaster.

The same joes who lack motivation and disciple to prep for the current APFT or stay relatively healthy and active, are the same ones who will fail this test or possibly the old crusties who shouldve retired arter WWI.

I loathe cardio so I would like to see the run dropped to 1 mile or removed... my momma always said I was a dreamer.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Jul 23 at 2018 6:40 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:40:23 -0400

I agree 100% with what you are saying. As soon as this came out, I identified several issues including how reserve component Soldiers are supposed to train for this. It is easy to say train on your own but that does cost Soldiers either by getting that equipment to train or join a gym. While I can afford that, I know there are plenty of RC Soldiers who would have a financial burden placed on them. Active duty Soldiers have access to the equipment and free membership at Post fitness centers. My second concern is the potential injury risk from the deadlift. If an active duty Soldier gets injured, they again have full access to healthcare without paying out of pocket. A RC Soldier will have to rely on a line of duty investigation or pay through their own healthcare. Finally, I am concerned about the long-term affect this will have on retention in the reserve components, especially the Army Reserve which already has a major issue with retention. I have a feeling that many will just say. "screw it all," and get out. IMHO, this is an example of big Army leadership either apathetic or ignorant of the challenges this will pose to RC Soldiers.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2018 7:55 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:55:55 -0400

I told my physical therapist to get ready to see lots of hamstrings. I tore mine earlier this year on a very light deadlift (225). I have been been lifting for years and years, but still got injured doing a routine exercise with light weight.

The deadlift is a difficult lift to master, especially for tall guys like me. Wait until you get every swinging $&@# in the Army trying to go out and rep 315. Massive injuries will ensue.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2018 8:53 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 08:53:02 -0400

I've mixed feelings (and frankly, no dog in the fight...but what the heck).

For a long time now, I've felt the NG and Reserves are being used outside their original intent and purpose (thank you, LCDR Obvious). What was intended as a practical supporting element that could primarily take up stateside roles during emergencies and wartime is now more or less a fully-fledged component of the deployable, regular component. This poses interesting problems revolving around the split professional commitments, funding relative to training and equipment, and the overall readiness of units that could, in theory, be operating right alongside front-line assets for extended periods of time.

It stands to reason that if these missions continue to involve "reserve" Soldiers...the physical standards should be equivalent. The mission defines the standard.

However, it also makes sense to consider the notion that you cannot breed a champion race-horse by treating it like a mule. I myself finally resigned my commission largely because I didn't want to spend twelve months being an "active duty" officer, forward deployed...only to come home and look for yet another lower-wage paying job to occupy the six months to a year in between possible deployments. Furthermore, it is a surreal experience to show up for a drill as a department head, and barley be able to afford your own hotel room for the weekend...while some of your Sailors have their PhD. Had there been a realistic option of rotating stateside to fill a full-time billet similar to a "shore rotation" in the fleet...train for a specific mission downrange, then return...I'd no doubt still be in today.

Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but I suspect that the "overuse" of NG and Reserve components stems directly from DOD cost-saving measures. Why spend the money to maintain and grow a sufficiently large enough active component...when you can tap reserve forces to do the same job "part time"? This practice makes no operational sense, and I suspect leads to numerous risks both to personnel and mission objectives over time. To my mind, we either need to fund an active component large enough to do the job...or policy objectives need to factor in the operational limits of the active force we can afford.

I've always been a firm believer in the notion that the money is out there...it's just spent on the wrong things, or massing in the wrong accounts. I'm also of the opinion that like it or not...we've inherited the mantle of "imperial" responsibility globally...hopefully in a benign sense. If so, then the active forces should be disseminated to equally manage both the forward deployed and stateside missions. It makes perfect sense to me that rather than having a large portion of the active component retire in their forties...we should foster a true life-long career for all members that starts at 18 and goes up to 60; maybe beyond. You can't actually divide these missions on just age/experience...because you need 19 year old riflemen defending California every bit as much as 42 year old NCOs in Afghanistan...but you could tailor an individual's career to suit the changes in physical and personal condition over those years to keep people in longer and get more efficient use from them.

Perhaps a fifty year old former infantry NCO would make an outstanding supply officer or even doctor later in life. Perhaps we should require all incoming young members to serve a few years in combat arms before even being eligible to transfer to support roles. Maybe a fighter pilot nearing middle age can't pull G's in an F-18 any longer, but can easily handle flying tankers for stateside operations. If someone's role no longer places them "downrange"...perhaps they don't need to demonstrate levels of fitness that may result in injury as they age. Is not the 20 year old gym rat and the 50 year old who can rebuild a helicopter engine in his sleep both equally valuable in their specific functions?

We're in this pickle for the same reasons we've always been; politics and economics. It would make good sense to have full-time uniformed personnel doing everything...from front line operations to stateside garrison roles; but it makes oodles of money for contractors, senators, congressmen and vendors to do it the way we do now (and pretty much always have). I'm pretty sure the civilian contractors currently performing these roles don't have to pass the PRT (no, I don't mean "civilian" combatant forces who are arguably if not literally all former special operations personnel).

In that sense, if NG and Reserve personnel are going to be asked to pull their weight downrange...then yes, the standard should be the same...but I fear all it will do is further weaken our overall retention and strength.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2018 3:01 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 15:01:56 -0400

I live in an apartment and can't afford a gym membership. What do they expect me to do?

Response by CW3 Kim B. made Jul 24 at 2018 8:40 PM

CW3 Kim B. — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:40:15 -0400

Isn't there still issues with pt on drill weekends? I agree that there will be a training problem due to lack of accessibility to equipment. Also remember that drill weekends have other mandatory requirements other than conducting a pt. I had Soldiers that never drilled with the unit due to mission requirements and did their apft away from the unit. It may be very hard to conduct this apft on an Individual basis. In a perfect world the unit would execute on the same day...however, the world is not perfect.
If the Army wants this to happen then unit provided equipment and trained facilitators need to be assigned to EVERY unit at the Company level....not Battalion level.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2018 12:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:34:40 -0400

I guess they will find out all this in field testing starting in October to October 2019. Nothing has been put into affect yet. TRADOC has even said that there could be changes made once they field test. Hell last time they thought they had a new test with the APRT and ACRT, it got killed in field testing.

My brother is in the Guard. I talked to him about a little. He's not really concerned about it yet. But he works out on his own and stays in pretty decent shape as opposed to some in his unit he's told me about.

I feel like we need to see what happens when it's in field testing but until then, people get ready however they can and hopefully go about starting weightlifting the right way if they haven't done it whether Guard, Reserve or active. I don't weightlift. I PCS in a couple months and as soon as I get to my unit I'm finding someone who knows how to properly weight lift to guide me and prepare for if it happens and if it doesn't. Hell I foresee some CSMs fighting letting soldiers go to the gym for PT even on active duty.

Response by SGT Josh Samuelson made Mar 14 at 2019 11:56 AM

SGT Josh Samuelson — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 11:56:17 -0400

Bottom line... if you can’t commit you shouldn’t. We are talking about preparations for combat. I don’t think that anyone I ever trained with or spent time with would disagree. Physical fitness is probably the first responsibility a soldier part time or full time should have and being weak is not an option. We need to stop pandering to an inability to perform minor fitness requirements. The army standard was one thing when I was in, but if you weren’t maxing your APFT you were failing. Fix your soldiers and make sure they understand that great fitness increases they’re performance on every level of the job. It increases alertness and basic health along with energy and focus. Zero excuses for anyone failing any part of that test and I find it appalling to see so many issues with fitness when you join the military.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2019 10:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 22:45:42 -0400

Short answer is it's going to be a massive problem on multiple levels to the point the higher ups will be forced to think twice about making the RC/NG do the ACFT.

I think just the logistical aspect of administering the ACFT will be a nightmare for the RC/NG. If the equipment is only going to be distributed at the BN level, how are units far away from their BN suppose to conduct the ACFT? Is the equipment going to be rotated between the units? Or will units have to dedicate a day or more just for travelling to and from BN to conduct the ACFT? Even the Commander of the RC (LTG Luckey) has concerns about ensuring all RC units have the necessary exercise equipment in time for the October 2020 deadline.

As for the time constraints, the typical BA weekend already has enough mandatory training and readiness requirements as it is. Adding the ACFT on top of it all is like trying to pull the Jenga block that everyone knows is going to collapse the tower. Unlike with the APFT, you can't minimize the time a company spends taking the ACFT just by adding in more graders, you also need more equipment. When RC/NG start doing the ACFT, it's not going to be a surprise when these units start turning up red on mandatory classes and online training.

The budget impact of Soldiers having to buy their own equipment (if they have enough space to store and use the equipment) or pay a hefty gym membership shouldn't be dismissed easily, especially for the junior enlisted. Not all part-time Soldiers are making big bucks on the civilian side. For those on active duty who think I'm being melodramatic about the monetary aspect of this, imagine if all on-post gyms and PXs shut down permanently, BAS and BAH was completely eliminated for everyone, everyone living in the barracks had to start paying rent and utilities, and the DFAC is only open for the lunch meal. With all of those financial perks gone, how would you feel about being told the onus is on you and your Soldiers to spend the money to get access to this equipment to be ready for this ACFT?

I'm not opposed to making changes to the APFT, but if you want the RC/NG to do the new test, the designers have to take into account that part-time Soldiers don't have the same kind of resources or schedule the full-time Soldiers do. No amount of hooahs will make these differences between AC and RC/NG go away.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2019 11:28 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 May 2019 11:28:52 -0400

It's going to be a big problem I predict in 2020 and beyond. There are many people in my unit with some serious profiles (I am an AGR Officer assigned to a USAR Unit). And they can only do one or two events in the current APFT, with the WALK as an alternate. One SSG I saw at Ft. Dix, NJ going through the Master Fitness Course, said they'd taken the new Army Combat Fitness Test (ACFT) and that no profiles would be allowed. If you are not in reasonably good shape you'll likely get hurt while attempting the ACFT. Some events like the army hang, crunch (Not sure of the proper name) requires some serious core strength, than many older out of shape reservists/national guard personnel do not have!! I predict that there will be many Soldiers retiring at the 20 year mark or get out all together... that or they allow people to just stay in (and not be promoted) while not passing the ACFT.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2019 3:02 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 May 2019 15:02:09 -0400

There is an ACFT app. Just go to https://acftapp.com from your smartphone.

ACFT app - Army Combat Fitness Test App - ACFT Calculator

ACFT (Army Combat Fitness Test) app calculates your ACFT score. The pro version of the App will allow you to keep track of your ACRT scores over time

Response by Sgt Jmeans M made Oct 17 at 2019 9:10 AM

Sgt Jmeans M — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 09:10:00 -0400

I'm kinda glad my old ass is out now, that test is for the young bullet proof troops,

Response by SFC Scott Higgins made Oct 17 at 2019 10:11 AM

SFC Scott Higgins — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 10:11:11 -0400

SFC Squires, I agree with you. Many, active duty soldiers might disagree, but i challenge those soldiers tasked with recruiting duty or asdigned to small posts might face the same challenges you mention. To simply say you are a soldier 100 percent of the time and you need to stay fit with whatever standard is thrown out is someone who cant see how a plan effects the entire force and the potential disasterous effect upon readiness and retention. Sure soldiers need to stay fit. They need to stay fit. But exactly hpw is someone in a forward firebase supposed to trsck down the deadlift bar, if their unit even has one and train? Or that soldier on recruiting duty iin NYC afford a gym membership because there is no base close enough to use thier facilities and even if there was a base close enough would there be an adequate amount of equipment for every unit member to have enough time to train? While it might not have been the same level of testing physical fitness of "real world" exercises, the "old" APFT at least could be trained for anywhere by anyone who answered the country's call. Thank you for your service.

Response by LTC David Brown made Jan 9 at 2020 2:16 PM

LTC David Brown — Thu, 09 Jan 2020 14:16:31 -0500

When I was on active duty as a Nurse Anesthetist I found maintaining Physical Readiness a challenge. In most units you had unit PT etc., Operating room Personal weren’t as fortunate, we arrived in the OR at 5:30/am to 6:30 am to set up for cases and then you worked until 3:30 pm or later, many times I got off work at 5:00 or 6:00 pm.. You had to maintain your medical career, military career etc. along with PT, raise and maintain a family etc. When I got into the reserves it was tougher. Coordinating drill weekends with call schedules etc was a pain. Then our AT was often during periods when everybody wanted time off during the summer. It wasn’t impossible but you had to pay attention. One of the units I was with really didn’t give a f—ck if any of us passed the PT test. A lot of people signed up for2 or 3 years in reserves and their unit did NOTHING to help them with the PT test. These people would show up for the PT test, do a push up, fail then say fire me. There was Chronicle c shortages of military medical personnel in the reserves. This new test will be far worse.

Response by CSM Danny S. made Feb 25 at 2020 9:21 AM

CSM Danny S. — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:21:00 -0500

So the first thing I did was introduce my soldiers to the events long before this year. We held an event were they came and actually performed each event. Getting soldiers over the shock of the new events was the real reason. The ACFT isn't that hard to complete but you will have to work on fitness a little be more to ensure you pass. I also keep them updated with any changes that develop over the course of this year. My goal is to expose soldiers to their weaknesses and then try to motivate them to train those areas more to improve. If the soldiers have very little strength they will struggle and require weight training. Our armory has a gym in it so local soldiers could come there to do some training. I am only adding in leg tucks to my normal training and I don't go to a gym. The reality is that a lot of Compo 2 soldiers don't train for the APFT so they will not train for the ACFT. The numbers in the beginning will show this and over time the number should start to rise as soldiers realize what they have to train. Time will tell.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 7 at 2020 9:48 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:48:37 -0400

If trends continue? 40-50% failure rates.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 2:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 14:44:56 -0400

All things being equal there is no reason to predict the USAR pass rate wont go down.

Administratively by default the USAR pass rate will go down. The rates were already what they were with units given APFT tests every single month. Now, with the equipment, and the added events, the logistics of administering the ACFT is more on par with running a Range Weekend. So, by that very nature the ACFT record days will be conducted on a much bigger scale, and be a much more important battle assembly weekend where excused absences are prohibited. That won't matter though because half the year is mandatory anyway and soldiers still miss events.

Folks will miss the event for the sake of more important things, like getting degrees, or pre-planned vacations and weddings based on an original Training Schedule and forced into conflict when the schedule is changed 2,3 or 4 times.

Since more folks will now miss the event, and since Ad Hoc monthly events can't be conducted the pass rate will go down even in the face if the pass rate prior to ACFT was the same. There will just be less soldiers with a CURRENT RECORD pass rate as a result of Record events only being given twice a year instead of every month.

That's whats going to happen, and the USAR will still go forward and commanders will wonder why schools and promotions have slowed down.

Response by LCpl Samuel Maynard made Sep 2 at 2021 6:34 PM

LCpl Samuel Maynard — Thu, 02 Sep 2021 18:34:24 -0400

i would expect that it will be damn near imposible. few are the people that will stay in shape if not proded by someone to do it.