How should a Specialist respond to an NCO who doesn't know regulations?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 07:55:52 -0500

The Army really needs to make sure if they are going to make somebody an NCO then that person should have general knowledge of ARs. Because it's really sad that as a specialist I have to correct an NCO who's trying to correct me because he doesn't know simple regulations like AR 670-1. What do you think?

Response by SFC David Howell made Mar 3 at 2015 8:08 AM

SFC David Howell — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 08:08:06 -0500

You are correct in your statement, and it is something that all leaders need to do, stay current on regulations. As a SPC you are already on the right path if you are reading and staying up on the ARs and FMs. A lot of things are changing and a lot of things have changed since I was a young SPC, so don't let me or my battle buddies get away with doing things the old way. Make sure you use tact and show respect where it is due, but continue to know, meet, and enforce the correct standard. It goes up and down the chain. Also remember that where there are gray areas, you can learn a lot from the old dogs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 8:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 08:11:16 -0500

Promotions use to be based on potential, AR670-1 is not a simple reg. A new NCO has alot to learn, schooling and experience will come. Im positive when you pin SGT you will make your fair shair of mistakes , but it seems your maby ahead of your peers . Hopefully you will have mentors and soldiers who will guide lead and direct you to all that you can be.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 3 at 2015 1:37 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:37:28 -0500

Well not know the situation I cannot accurately give my feedback on it but I will say when I pinned my stripes I did not know all the regulations forward and back and therefore, made my share of mistakes and I corrected myself and learned which I hope that this NCO does.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 3 at 2015 1:39 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:39:57 -0500

I would need more info on what part of AR 670-1 was in question. The sheer volume of "stuff" an NCO is supposed to know is too voluminous for folks to have everything memorized. It is more important to know where to get the answe from than it is to try to have all the answers memorized.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Mar 3 at 2015 1:41 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:41:41 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member - I can't help but wonder if this post is an attempt to pick a Rallypoint fight with a random senior NCO?

It's like waving a cape in front of a bull....

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 1:46 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:46:20 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member every time you post a discussion I just...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 2:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:03:30 -0500

I will say that this is a major issue. I was speaking to a SPC who I hold in high esteem about this. He is by far one of the brightest soldiers I know. His team leader told him that he, the team leader, doesn't know as much that he, the SPC, does. So how a SPC is pretty much doing the job of the TL. What is worse the SL felt challenged by the SPC. The SPC knows more than his SL does also. So the SL tried show how smart he was by reading off his IPAD and quizzing the SPC on stuff. The SPC answered him and left one detail out. The SL then berated him for not know everything. Keep in mind the SL didn't even know it and was reading it off his IPAD. Stuff like this happens far too much. This soldier has plenty experience and fought in some major battles in Iraq. He should be an NCO but the system isn't working in his favor.

As an NCO you should correct soldiers. But you should know the REG. If you try to call out someone and get it wrong you should be humble enough to check it out then to force your will on them.

I totally agree with you. I think some take being an NCO too lightly I felt it was a huge burden. I thought the weight of the Army and my unit on my shoulders. I am an officer now. I still feel that weight bearing down on me. It pushes me to perform. It is rough but I can bear it. I will succeed. I will leave my unit better than when I got there. That is why I am there. When I see a person in leadership not feel this burden it really bothers me. They are only putting that burden on others. One day I won't be there. Someone new will have to take my place. If they aren't prepared that weight may just crush them. Then we all lose.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Mar 3 at 2015 2:07 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:07:57 -0500

Correcting NCO's as a non rate is poor form and will only make you more enemies than you likely already have. You might want to learn a few leadership skills before taking on the entire Army structure. You are becoming a legend on here for leading with your chin.

You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 3 at 2015 2:10 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:10:47 -0500

Not everyone can quote regs exactly as they are written. If I was to miss an word or two so be it, you get the jist. But before I correct someone and I don't know, I look the reg up and see what it says before I do!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 3 at 2015 2:12 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:12:50 -0500

The AR 670-1 is 65 pages long. I doubt anyone has it completely memorized. The most recent revision I saw was Sept 2014.

I was VERY familiar with the USMC version, and I still had to look things up. I constantly had to look things up, even if I was sure I knew the reg. Things change all the time.

Something the NCO in question knows may have since changed, and because you know it now "the correct way" is because you learned it after the change. Knowledge evolves. Constantly.

Someday, one of your troops is going to look at you like you have a sixth appendage growing out of your forehead when you try to correct them, and point out the regs, and you will say "when the hell did they change that?" It's going to be little things at first, like wedding ring tattoos (back when I was in, there were no tattoos below the wrist at all), or males carrying umbrellas. One of the other posters here mentioned an old timer yelling at him for having "Officer US" insignia on. When my dad was a CMSgt (retired in 1990) in the AF, they still only had 2 stripes on the top (instead of the 3 now).

These are just a few examples. So before you judge your NCO too harshly, remember it could be you. Grab the AR 670-1, and just show him. "Hey Sgt, You're mistaken, it's right here in B&W, it might have changed since last time you dealt with it."

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 2:18 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:18:45 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Like others have already said on here; that the large amount of ARs, FMs, TCs, DODI, DOD regs, policy letters, TMs, doctrine and other rules are far to vast for any one leader to know. This is why company commanders have so many Soldiers in additional duty positions. They need subject matter experts to give them advice and ensure they follow those regs. I will tell you from experience most NCOs and leaders have no problem with being fixed if they are wrong. I personally can not stand being wrong so if I am fix me. Here is my bit of advice though. You want to be treated with respect you fix me behind closed doors or off to the side respectfully. Even if i am wrong if you come at me rude and disrespectful in front of a group of people right after I corrected you; its going to be a bad day.

Bottom line people make mistakes Soldiers and leaders. We do not know it all. But we can not pick our leaders solely on their knowledge of every little Army detail. NCOs should be chosen based on the ability to find the answer when needed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 2:20 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:20:18 -0500

You have a lot of problems with authority kid.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 3 at 2015 3:31 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:31:38 -0500

Well I can say this, With all the responses and all the reply's that we have made, maybe the kid is smarter than a 5th grader and is racking up the RP points himself!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 3:39 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:39:02 -0500

I just viewed your profile to verify what I already expected....only question I have is...is the Army verifing you before you pin on?...the question you proposed is double sided.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Mar 3 at 2015 3:43 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:43:08 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member I think you and this NCO need to have an honest sit down conversation, maybe with the PSG or the CO present.

Maybe you can get him his own ring and then you guys can be the Wonder Twins.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 3 at 2015 3:43 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:43:40 -0500

This message is Master Guns approved

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 3 at 2015 3:47 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:47:35 -0500

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 3:50 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:50:47 -0500

What I whould have said was if an NCO is going to correct someone, they should know the regulations

Response by CSM Michael Lynch made Mar 3 at 2015 3:53 PM

CSM Michael Lynch — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 15:53:44 -0500

You can always try this !!!

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 4:23 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 16:23:22 -0500

Based on the various responses and previous discussions why is anyone humoring this particular poster?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 4:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 16:34:08 -0500

To my original post...Also... Just wanted to add before you read my comment, look at my profile and ask me questions... I was a specialist that thought I knew all there was to know about everything...I was severely mistaken. I call it now the wizard of oz complex... Wait until you view want is truly behind that curtain before you pass judgement

Confusious say... Those who walk around with mouth open always taste defeat....

Response by SFC Rodrick Carter made Mar 3 at 2015 4:37 PM

SFC Rodrick Carter — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 16:37:23 -0500

A noncommissioned officer's duties are numerous and must be taken seriously. An NCO's duty includes taking care of soldiers, which is his/ her priority. Noncommissioned Officers do this by developing a genuine concern for their soldiers' well-being. Leaders must know and understand their soldiers well enough to train them as individuals and teams to operate proficiently. This will give them confidence in their ability to perform well under the difficult and demanding conditions of combat. Individual training is the principle duty and responsibility of NCOs. No one in the Army has more to do with training soldiers than NCOs. Well trained soldiers will likely succeed and survive on the battlefield. Well trained soldiers properly do the tasks their NCOs give them and executes with energy and enthusiam. Instead of correcting NCO's on regulations SPC Voye, get with your 1SG and ask him if you can give a class to the company on AR 670-1. Also get promoted! If you are so well versed on your AR's then you should be wearing Sergeant stripes and not a shield. I had a few Soldiers back in the day that challenged me and realized that they didn't know as much as they thought they did.....IJS

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 5:10 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 17:10:39 -0500

Every NCO (Soldier for that matter) should be constantly gaining knowledge, because this is the secret to great success in our lives and craft. I also see this as a good learning experience for junior leaders, such as a Specialist. I deal with Senior NCOs all the time, and tactfully correct them. Does that make me more knowledgeable? Does it make me a better Soldier? No, but I do the right thing and drive on.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Mar 3 at 2015 5:11 PM

SSG Richard Reilly — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 17:11:38 -0500

Simple Answer...Yes Sergeant...Roger Sergeant.

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 3 at 2015 5:43 PM

SGT William Howell — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 17:43:02 -0500

So here is my two cents. Who the hell knows what is in the 670-1 anymore? We change uniform regs like you change underwear. Heck we change uniforms every year! Heck their have been 5 major uniform changes that I can count in the last 10 years.

A NCO can spend months memorizing the 670-1 and then it will change a week later. When I was in I gave up. As far as I am concerned, uniforms today all look like soup sandwiches (with the exception of the Blues).

My advice, suck it up, pick your battles, and soldier on.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Mar 3 at 2015 5:47 PM

TSgt David Holman — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 17:47:26 -0500

I think you need to take a step back and look at the situation with a little different look. First of all, some of us have been doing this long enough that regulations have changed (imagine the look on my MSgt's face when I corrected him that black socks are actually authorized with the AFPT uniform... he appreciated it, it kept him from looking stupid). Know how to correct someone with tact, and not make them look like idiots and you will go a long way. What is really sad is you comment of "it's really sad that as a specialist"... learn to be a good soldier before correcting people on not knowing "simple" yet ever changing regulations...

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 3 at 2015 7:08 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 19:08:32 -0500

I'll be sure to let the Army know that.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 7:32 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 19:32:03 -0500

There are classes for this NCO to attend and emails updating him on the ARs right? The AF sends out e-mails when an AFI changes. I do agree... that's sad. But the correct response is to remain respectful while correcting him.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 7:38 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 19:38:02 -0500

As a "Regulation Nazi" and a former Specialist, I ran into this several times. Usually the situation was already a low-key argument, so the scene was set.

Usually I would ask the NCO respectfully, if he had the regulation/reference to back up his assertion. I usually had the regs on my iPod Touch, so I did. If the NCO did not, I would bring up the reg and ask if he would like to see what the reg actually says, for future reference.

My favorite instance of this was right after my second deployment and I had just gotten out of a promotion board where I was recommended for promotion to SGT. The SSG pointed to my Combat Service Badge on my ASUs. He said that I was wearing the "wrong one." I asked him how he figured that (admittedly I was playing with him, because I had lots of references on this one). He asked if I had just deployed with the 101st. I replied in the affirmative. He then said that I had to wear the latest unit of deployment. I asked him if he would care to bet his next paycheck on it. He asked if I could cover his next paycheck. I told him that I didn't have to, because I already had the answer, had witnesses (who were following the exchange), and was just waiting for him to say yes. He turned around and walked away.

So the bottom line is that there is a way to convey regulatory guidance to senior personnel. It involves respect and lots of tact. You also had best know what you are talking about and in many cases, are interpreting the reg properly.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Mar 3 at 2015 7:45 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 19:45:12 -0500

"Soldiers may wear a wristwatch, a wrist identification bracelet, and a total of two rings (a wedding set is considered one ring) with Army uniforms, [unless prohibited by the commander for safety or health reasons. Any jewelry soldiers wear must be conservative and in good taste.] Identification bracelets are limited to medical alert bracelets and missing in action/prisoner of war (MIA/POW) bracelets. Soldiers may wear only one item on each wrist.

No other jewelry will appear exposed while wearing the uniform; this includes watch chains or similar items, pens, and pencils. The only authorized exceptions are religious items described at the beginning of this section. Other exceptions are a conservative tie tack or tie clasp that male soldiers may wear with the black four-in-hand necktie and a pen or pencil that may appear exposed on the hospital duty, food service, combat vehicle crewman (CVC), or flight uniforms."

The bracketed portion is what stands out to me. This is why you need to have a sit down with the NCO and possibly the Commander and explain your grievances, because continuing to come onto a site such as this, which is established for the professional development of soldiers to have a personal bitch fest and ignore good advice will do nothing but hurt you. If you are not careful, the Commander at your incoming unit when you are ready to make SGT will see your topics such as this one and decide that you are not worth promoting. There is an open door policy for a reason, use it.

Or you can keep bitch festing here and getting ridiculed by those on the website who have attempted to give you honest help in the past. Stop being a smartass know it all and learn something for once. Talk to your command structure if you are having an issue with this NCO. You are not the only soldier to have difficulty with a superior, but you are the one that I know of that will continue to complain on a social media site and ignore advice from all manner of experienced professionals that have been willing to help you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 7:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 19:59:42 -0500

SPC Voye, there are good NCOs and bad NCOs and every shade of grey in between. The best advice I can give is you need to learn how to make your leadership an asset to you. If you have this knowledge you need to be weilding to your and your units benefit. Step one your immediate response should be "Roger Sergeant" do not attempt to make an on the spot correction at this time give the situation some time to diffuse. Come back later and in private with the regulation in hand and tactfully show the NCO. Remember your goal should be the betterment of your unit not to one up your boss. Step two, teach your subordinates and be seen doing it what's the point of all the knowledge you are amassing if you keep it to yourself? You also need to start selling your services to your chain of command. You need to be your own PR service remember these are the people who will promote you, send you to school ect. Running around trying to dick measure with them is not doing you any favors. You need to become the go to guy.

Your FLL should be your greatest resource and advocate if that is not the case it's because you are not managing the relationship. Take a few steps back before you judge. A lot of hard charging SPCs look at old balls SFC and think they could do better. Well maybe you can but your shot is not coming for several years. So you need to learn to follow if you ever want to get the chance to lead.

Sent from my iPhone

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 8:03 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:03:45 -0500

I would challenge you to note those things that your leadership excels at. As a kid I was always made to state two positive points whenever I said a negative thing about a person. I guarantee there are a multitude of things that those individuals are far more proficient, technically, and tactically, than you could possibly hope to be by comparison at this point in your career. Because you happen to know one basic regulation very well, certainly doesn't give you any right to assume yourself superior, or more qualified for leadership than those individuals. When you have managed to school them in much more than putting your pants on in the morning, you may have a case for yourself. When you deal with soldier's family problems, financial issues beyond what stands out in an LES, time management, NCOER's, drunk idiot kid at the MP station, angry spouse complaining about hubby's work schedule, additional duties (besides a fridge fund), remaining proficient in the MOS, training others beyond 10 and 20 level tasks, etc., you might have a little more weight behind your pretentious leadership superiority complex. With you, as an individual who has rendered honors in over 250 funerals, I would hope that you are intimately familiar with 670-1, but I would challenge you to attempt to be just mildly as familiar with those FM's, TM's, TC's, DP's, AR's, etc., that are related to your job as a 12B. If you so wish to challenge the competence and qualifications of those senior to you, you'd do well to be familiar with other regulations like sponsorship requirements, equal opportunity, ARMY LEADERSHIP, rating system, pay and entitlements, physical training, and even a little bit of Title 10, subtitle A, part II, Chapter 47 to name a few topics. And when you do, see how much time you have to go back and refresh yourself on a AR-670-1, the one regulation every SPC knows "inside and out". That being said, as is the expectation when voting someone down, I did so because your approach is unprofessional, petty, and makes it a point to place yourself above others in such a way that you come off very arrogant, and even self righteous, where you even challenge the Army's overall competence in choosing is leaders. No, it doesn't always get the right guy for the job, but more often than not it does. To offer a solution to your "issue" however, tact is king, and rarely is a junior "correcting" a senior a vessel with which tact can be applied. Especially not when done in such a way as to attack an individual's overall competence for a minor mistake. That's called a pissing contest. I would suggest bringing it up to the next guy in line (if the fight is even worth it) so if a correction needs to be made, it can be made by an APPROPRIATE agent. Then, let bygones be bygones rather than continue to be petty and attempt to garner support off site. All that out of the way, something positive... Well I don't know you well enough, but a nod to you sir for taking pride in what you do for families of the fallen. Not very many people have that kind of reverence and appreciation for funeral detail. I've only done 7 funerals myself, and I see it as a privilege to have done those few, so more power to you. I'm sure you're more than well aware, but that task is received with huge appreciation. Don't have a second positive, but that's just for lack of knowing you. Now, pull your head out of your ass and develop yourself as a better leader than those you feel you have fallen victim to. No one's going to put you on pedestal (or put stripes on your chest) based on the inequities of others. They're looking for your successes, and yours alone.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 8:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:07:17 -0500

make sure you have all your ducks on a row. It would be best to have a side bar with that NCO and have the AR para and line dtd etc. written down in a book. Which you should have these inspect able items on you at all times. Your Soldiers Book, Two sets of ID tags, CAC/ID Card, A Black/Blue ink pen, and Profile if you are issued one, and depending on your Cmd a reflective belt in your pocket.

Response by SSG Eric Eck made Mar 3 at 2015 8:17 PM

SSG Eric Eck — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:17:00 -0500

Not to take any side, but to know AR670-1 is just the beginning. Remember that your unit commander can add to but not take away from the regulation. Hair cuts and uniform appearance are the worst when it comes to this. If it has to do with what goes where, then you need to show your NCO's the actual regulation, and when you do, make sure it is the most updated version, and make sure you are correct. It also may be a good idea to quit questioning everything you are told as a lower enlisted, your NCO's are professionals that are there to train and guide you.

Response by MSgt Michael Durkee made Mar 3 at 2015 8:32 PM

MSgt Michael Durkee — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:32:05 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member , you have seen the gambit of advice but still seem to ignore it. I've said it before, and I will continue to say it again...RP is a place of immense advice and mentorship. Listen to the vast bank of knowledge, experience, and genuine care for our Profession of Arms.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 8:44 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:44:08 -0500

I'm sorry, I can't hear you due to all of the push-ups. IMHO, this is currently what is wrong with the military (a severe lack of military good order and discipline) today. Being groomed for advancement in my career, I never would question my NCOs.

If they told me to walk like a penguin, I walked like a penguin. If they told me to go pick up cigarettes in the parking lot, that's what I did. I didn't question what they were telling me to do.

Maybe I'm just a little "old school."

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 8:44 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:44:46 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member I've read many of the comments (not all) to your question/concern. So I think you've already seen all the criticism you've received so I will focus more on your question.

Couple points that would be good to know would be the rank of the NCO you're referring to; the situation; and knowing the particular point in the AR you're referring too.

Putting that aside. The Army (Big organization) is not the blame of NCOs, Officers, Soldiers not knowing particular points in ARs; FMs, and other guides. These issues are organizational leadership accomplishments as well as failures. These are also individual and personal knowledge and skill successes, as well as failures.

Each level of rank has a next higher level of rank that should be taking interest in the development of subordinates be it Enlisted, NCO, or Officer. It does happen when those in leadership positions will base their actions on "what they think or believe" is based on a regulation and not be completely accurate. It shouldn't happen (not making excuses) but it does happen.
Now how you as a Specialist go about in making a correction is important. Why? How your approach, attitude, and manor is which you "deliver" your response to an NCO who is providing (or trying to) a correction.

I can relate to your post remembering when I was an E4 Team Leader with an E5 Section Chief who should have never been promoted beyond PV2. But it happens...it's reality and a fact of life in the Army; However, the way you go about it is a very key issue.

Now you can do it as an arrogant ass, wanting to show him up, proving (in your mind) that you showed his ass up, don't mess with me, I know more than you. However when done in that manner what is often never thought of is...."How is being received?" Two wrongs never make a right....in reality!

From a mentoring aspect, I will suggest you go about doing (or thinking about) it in this manner: Being professional, respectful to his rank, yet confident without coming across as an arrogant ass and hopefully be received as non confrontational, sarcastic and him thinking you're thinking he's a dumb ass (which you may or may not be).

Some in leadership positions are threatened when a subordinate appears to possess more knowledge or info on any topic; instead of accepting the subordinate as an asset! Only you can choose the manner in which you approach the situation.

The best outcome for this is if in the future, should this ever happen to you, make sure your response, attitude is not as degrading as you may feel the NCO was to you...whether it was or not in reality. Check your EGO as you think he may have failed to do!

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Mar 3 at 2015 9:21 PM

SPC David Shaffer — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 21:21:19 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member To answer your question SPC to SPC, the Specialist should follow orders, and remember that we as specialist have no place correcting an NCO. With the attitude you are displaying by posting this...well, I don't see you making it to NCO anytime soon, if ever.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 10:08 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:08:55 -0500

What I think SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member , is there should be more to your story. Do tell.

Until then, you come off as a pompous and arrogant SPC who is attempting to make himself look smarter or bigger than his rank and age, and I'm sorry to tell you, you are failing on all accounts. I would like to believe you are something more than a smartass, but I will await your reply to see.

If your purpose was to stir up shit on RP again, congratulations.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 10:10 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:10:41 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member always be respectful when correcting or pointing out errors. That may even mean taking the chewing prior to being able to show that they were in the wrong. Do not showboat it. This is another reason I think RC should have appearance boards for E-4 to E-5 and E-5 to E-6.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 3 at 2015 10:20 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:20:09 -0500

Yes I down voted you - WHY? Just re-read your post! On a forum like this one must post some facts, not just pointing fingers. Maybe next time you post you need to re-examine the 5 "W" and see how to work them into what you post. I also think you need to hit the TMC and get that rubber elbow checked out!

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 3 at 2015 10:20 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:20:57 -0500

You must be careful and prudent on how you conduct yourself with an NCO when it comes to correcting them for a minor infraction or in your case, an AR 670-1 issue. By the way, the Army promotes on potential. So no one ever said, "Hey before we pin you take this test on every TM, FM, AR and TC ever made". We are all human and we make mistakes. I bet there is something you don't know that you should know on your level. One thing is for sure, be respectful, be private and do not berate because they will make you go from E4 to E3 or lower in a heartbeat.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 3 at 2015 10:26 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:26:15 -0500

Spc Cody Voye, Perhaps you should check the toilet bowl before you flush in the AM. Is your s--t straight? I would never know it from your posts on RP.

Response by MAJ Terry LaFrance made Mar 3 at 2015 10:55 PM

MAJ Terry LaFrance — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:55:47 -0500

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 10:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 22:59:26 -0500

True story:

As a hi-speed SPC, I was 2 weeks away from going to the board. I decided to see who could piss farther between myself and two SSGs.

After I felt satisfied (not realizing how big of a douche I just made myself look like) I carried on about my day as if nothing happend. That same morning, one of the SSGs I decided to challange, was named my first line leader. His first action, of course, was to pull my packet.

I went to the 1sg and explained the situation. Top said something that will stick with me always, and, is the moral of this story. I hope it resonates.

"I see you putting in work out there, trying to become an NCO. I also see that you try to hold your NCOs feet to the fire. Just know... once you put them stripes on, I will hold your feet to that same fire.

Be respectful, fill your cup up and share knowledge. Play the game, get your stripes, and know that one day, you will have to deal with the new high speeder. Guide and mentor. Think back to your issues now and be a leader. But in order to lead, you must first learn to FOLLOW!

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Mar 3 at 2015 11:20 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 23:20:34 -0500

You should just break down and give the NCO the other one to the set.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 3 at 2015 11:29 PM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 23:29:39 -0500

Didn't you already ask this same question about the two rings?

I think you need to have faith and confidence in your leaders. When you always think you are smarter and more talented than your leadership, then perhaps the military is not the place for you. If this is about the two rings again, that again shows you are more concerned about being right, than doing what you are told, which is another dangerous situation for a Soldier.

I was in the Army nearly 33 years, and I don't know what is in every AR, not even close. I do know, if I have a question, I consult with an NCO and/or the requisite AR.

Perhaps, when you are an NCO, you can be the NCO you think the rest should be. It is not as easy as it looks.

Response by SFC Roger D. made Mar 3 at 2015 11:47 PM

SFC Roger D. — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 23:47:25 -0500

Not everyone knows everything so be tactful start by addressing them " With all due respect SGT or MSG 1SG, SMG".

Regulations have changed a lot over the years and Some NCO's have forgotten more than you. Be patient and do not call them out....He or She may know something you don't. Look inside yourself..

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Mar 4 at 2015 12:31 AM

PO3 John Jeter — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 00:31:37 -0500

You're entering into a species of argument which, in one form or another, is going to bedevil you for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter if you're military or civilian. The core generic question is "How do I deal with a supervisor who isn't as familiar with the rules as they believe they are?" With respect, at this stage of your career........don't. If you have a problem, you have provisions in your chain of command for dealing with it. Use the channels that the Army has provided.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 2:12 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 02:12:15 -0500

SPC Voye, I urge you to lift and shift your fire. But I see that's too late.

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Mar 4 at 2015 2:59 AM

SPC Lukas Jones — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 02:59:28 -0500

If your question is how you should respond, I have a one word answer: Carefully.

If you are surrounded by other subordinates of that particular NCO, ask to speak to him/her privately or in an area that you will not be overheard by others. Once you have that meeting, ask them for clarification on the regulation in question (for example AR670-1). It may be that the NCO is not aware of an updated publication of that Regulation or that the NCO has a newer version than you know. Either way, approach the matter delicately (we have to keep our NCO's egos intact when we have such discussions). Our rank originally meant that we were subject matter experts in our MOS and we were often conferred with when command decisions were being made. Sadly, when the Army un-complicated our rank structure (and just talking to my Grandfather I came to understand how convoluted it used to be) they passed many of the roles and responsibilities on to the NCOs.

If you take one thing away, just stay professional, maintain your bearing and politely address the issue in a considerate and appropriate manner. If the NCO in question is new, they will appreciate your brevity and professionalism in addressing the concern. If you are speaking to a more experienced NCO, they will appreciate the opportunity to address the issue. It may even be an underlying issue in the unit that before, has gone un-noticed. Also, be aware, that command can be more stringent that AR 670-1 states. Example: in one of my infantry companies, command did not want any soldiers with hair longer than a quarter inch (basically everyone had a BCT haircut). It was a very professional look that the commander preferred and we all complied.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 4:10 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:10:12 -0500

I have seen the other discussions that this young specialist has posted on RP and of course I have judged him just like the rest of you have but, I have chosen not to respond to them, except this one. Why you ask? Well I will tell you.

Seems to me that this young Soldier has some poor leadership in what seems to be a poor unit. Sounds like he may have some legitimate issues but does not articulate them very well. Meanwhile, he gets the same treatment from Rallypoint that he gets from his leadership.

If you think he is just stirring up nonsense, ignore him. If you think you can help, give him advice. If you want to make fun of him, you should think twice. I wish I had a dollar for every time I misquoted a AR, FM, TM and was corrected by a subordinate. I don't know about you but, I don't have a photographic memory and there is more to being a NCO than memorizing regulations.

Zero defect is a bad thing!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 4:51 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 04:51:01 -0500

Other things to remind yourself, SPC Voye, if it's regarding an NCO in a Reserve or Guard Unit, they have other responsibilities in life. Might have some room to throw a stone or two if it's an Active Duty NCO who's held their rank for a while, but the non-Active Components not only have their Military standards to keep, but their Professional Standards in whichever career field they preform daily.

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made Mar 4 at 2015 5:35 AM

CW2 Eric Scott — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 05:35:58 -0500

Take into account that as a SPC you are (hopefully) studying for the board and thus more fluent with regulations. In any event if you run into anyone that doesn't know regulations and an event requiring the invocation of regulation arises tell them or correct them respectfully. You'll never be wrong. But if you're just going around sharpshooting NCOs, you're asking for CQ.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Mar 4 at 2015 5:36 AM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 05:36:52 -0500

SPC Voye:

Humility and perseverance are two main ingredients to longevity in the Military. My thoughts are grace is given and Military professionalism is a must. It took me three years to make E-3 due to I was very opinionated and out-spoken.

I have learned by remaining respectful and being a team player you can educate without being perceived as out of order.

Response by SPC James AbadaOMalley made Mar 4 at 2015 7:12 AM

SPC James AbadaOMalley — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 07:12:47 -0500

Specialist to Specialist I'd like to answer your question not just for you but also for other young soldiers who will read this thread looking for the same advice and see a ton of comments tearing in to you for your bad attitude. Your heading is vague and the main body of your question is inflammatory. I get it, you’re frustrated, and we've all been there. If you take a confrontational stance you are going to get a confrontational response.

I suspect the spirit of your question would be “How would a junior soldier correct a senior soldier/leader?”
First, you had better be certain you are correct before you correct. Few things look dumber than a subject matter expert who is wrong.
Second, approach from a position of respect. If you are correcting to get back at someone or make them look stupid you look unprofessional. If you are correcting to allow someone to improve you are a battle buddy.
Third, always use tact. When correcting, especially when correcting a senior, ensure the smallest feasible audience and the most reasonable time. And remember, you are not correcting to be critical, you are correcting to provide the opportunity to improve as a soldier.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 8:29 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:29:12 -0500

So, unlike the majority of these posts, I will actually provide some legitimate feedback. I don't know you, or the "alleged dirt-bag NCO". Your service promoted the NCO in question because he met all the requirements to advance. It isn't yours to judge him unfit. Educate him, respectfully and alone with the proof in front of you. I have learned from my subordinates before. If you are correct and can prove it he will most likely have a greater respect for you.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 9:15 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:15:19 -0500

I don't like to make excuses for dirtbag NCO's (if that is the case) as it is their duty to know there job as well as current regulations. However nothing is more annoying than backseat supervisors and armchair quarterbacks. Being an NCO while rewarding can often times be an overwhelming responsibility. Just remember that heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 9:17 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:17:22 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member I am not christian, I am not chaplin assistant or whatsoever but, I can't deny that there is wisdom in the bible. I would say that the best advice that I can give you, and I repeat that I am not christian, is Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool who keeps silent, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
That was my serious response in this matter.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 9:27 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:27:21 -0500

I wouldn't want an NCO that is in charge of me and didn't know Army regulations.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 9:42 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:42:36 -0500

Don't correct the NCO in front of his soldiers. That will not go over to well for you.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 10:09 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:09:55 -0500

Tactfully is the right answer but that does not explain anything. In a polite and courteous manner show the NCO the correct interpretation of the regulation. If he/she is an NCO that was promoted too quickly based off bravado or down range time chances are he/she does not know the regulation but worst of all cannot admit when they are wrong. Hopefully the we can develop a program that will address the uneducated/not fully matured NCO with specific NCO leadership training. This is a great learning opportunity to deal with for you as there are aplenty of uneducated/not fully matured NCO's out there.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 4 at 2015 10:19 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:19:34 -0500

SPC Voye, even as a SFC/PSG there were parts of 670-1 that I did not know inside and out, the beauty of it was that I could reference it and read what was actually there in black and white. Perhaps you feel that you are god's gift to the "SPC Mafia" and feel it beneath you to have someone higher on the totem pole make a mistake in correcting you and you have to point that out to them. You more or less lose your credibility on here by posting in the manner in which you did, seems you may have some personal animosity towards this particular NCO or you CoC in general. Try to remember "how you felt" when you make a mistake and a PFC or PV2 has to correct you and thinks to themselves "wow, this SPC doesn't seem to know his regs, no wonder he isn't getting promoted." Just some food for thought, take it or leave it, it's free.....

Response by Sgt Jim H. made Mar 4 at 2015 10:24 AM

Sgt Jim H. — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:24:54 -0500

Cody,

You have to be smart and choose your battles wisely. Remember, the higher ranking person is automatically presumed to be right. If you have chosen to make a uniform regulation an issue with an NCO then you should always use extreme tact when making your point and be able to cite the specific regulation, tactfully. If you can't do that then just say "Yes Sergeant" and correct the deficiency to the NCO's satisfaction and continue to carry out the orders of the day.

And, if you have a problem with the NCO corps then change it by promoting. That means making yourself promotable.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 11:25 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:25:13 -0500

Before we crucify this young hooah, analyze his statement. From my foxhole, it is sad that an NCO would exercise his/her authority without understanding the regulations and policies that grants the authority. It's easy to blast a SPC and dismiss his comment because it's perceived as "uninformed" or "disrespectful. Frankly, I have seen NCOs lead solely by the rank on their chest, vice using the experience, research, and validated training they should have. While, these new Soldiers are coming in much smarter with an inherit will to research topics before doing anything. Moreover, technology puts the right answer right at their fingertips. But, leaders, expect Soldiers to follow blindly. I've had Soldiers challenge or ask about things I've directed. I didn't get mad. I knew what I was talking about and allowed them to research. When they came back knowing I was right, I gained credibility in their eyes. There will be times when Soldiers just have to follow, no questions asked---they know that too! But, that's not all the time. If you blast them every time they provide input, you stifle their initiative preventing them from growing as critical thinking leaders. Just a different point of view.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Mar 4 at 2015 11:27 AM

SSG Brian Kresge — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:27:23 -0500

Seeing the number of responses indicating that this is par for the course with the line of questions posted, I had a relatively non-linear thought about all of this.

Nearly as long as I've been in uniform, I've also worn a yarmulke in the traditions of my religious faith. Generally speaking, 670-1 is the only AR I've ever been "tested" on, and I'll admit, I can quote the section regarding religious headgear verbatim, because it's the only one I've ever been queried about outside of a board.

Leadership is more contextual than referential - at least it should be. We have references to inform some leadership choices, and we also have references that we must completely adhere to. Sometimes, I'm not altogether confident that our promotion processes account for emotional maturity, let alone learned capability, or even just disciplined adherence to troop leading procedures.

But the ability to channel some encyclopedic knowledge of references isn't a hallmark of leadership in just about any forum, let alone military. It's like winning at a trivia game. At the end of the game you've demonstrated your ability to retain and recall facts, but no one wants to make eye contact with you.

At the very least, we should generally be able to assume even a junior NCO can synthesize experience, smarts, and capability into a reasonable facsimile of leadership. The emphasis in that case is not knowing the particulars of 670-1, like how far off the cuff of the sleeve service stripes should be on a female service uniform, but rather that it *is* the reg that governs wear and appearance of uniform. Or that a -10 covers operator maintenance, etc. etc.

And another thought - we tend to think of leadership from the top-down. What are our leaders' obligations to us? Well, what about our obligations to them? There may be instances where I am more competent in this or that realm of thinking than someone of higher rank. My obligation there isn't to question his leadership if I know something he doesn't - my obligation is to ensure that my knowledge is *his* asset. That is an ideal reciprocal form of leadership that so many of our units desperately need, one we can't cultivate in NCOES without soldiers feeling that sense of duty not only to the service, but the individual people who lead them.

Response by SSG Paul Lanciault made Mar 4 at 2015 11:30 AM

SSG Paul Lanciault — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:30:41 -0500

There is more to leadership than "knowing the regulations" You also have to know when, where, how and why the should be enforced.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Mar 4 at 2015 12:30 PM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:30:36 -0500

Use tact.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Mar 4 at 2015 2:12 PM

SrA Matthew Knight — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:12:43 -0500

If said NCO is wrong then politely and respectfully inform them of the correct regulation plain and simple. No need to blow it out of proportion just because they are higher rank and in your opinion they should know. As some others have said there are a LOT of regulations and the idea that people should know every single one is just absurd. I wouldn't even expect a 4 star General to know every single regulation. It's just human, I know my memory isn't that good. Not only that but it isn't hard for someone to misinterpret a regulations meaning either.

Response by MAJ Chris Ballard made Mar 4 at 2015 2:15 PM

MAJ Chris Ballard — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:15:38 -0500

You should respond quietly and professionally. One day you'll find yourself with an extra stripe and find that it does not automatically convey omniscience. A good NCO will take the correction if done privately and professionally, but a good NCO will also not stand for a subordinate calling him out to embarrass him.

Response by SSG Sean Knudsen made Mar 4 at 2015 2:27 PM

SSG Sean Knudsen — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:27:52 -0500

Just remember that while you keep waving that sword around, sooner or later you may fall on it young soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 3:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:57:07 -0500

You need to do it in a non confrontational manner - remember that he is still a Non Commissioned Officer as you may be one day. Make it a learning experience for both of you (you pretty much have to set the tone and control the situation). Our regulations change so frequently at times that unless you have a mind that is a steel trap we are not going to know every detail of every regulation, pamphlet, ALARACT, and MILPER message that comes down the pike.

What you don't want to do is embarass him in front of your peers or his peers. If he is a good NCO and recognizes that he is wrong and that you took the steps to avoid embarrassment for both of you chances are you will come out ahead.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Mar 4 at 2015 4:35 PM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:35:42 -0500

SPC Voye:

I have the UT-most respect for my junior enlisted. I was enlisted for 22 years and I will share with you a valuable nugget.

If you do not have a professional relationship you get labeled. If you are not a vital part of the support team for leadership you have a good chance on being on the menu.

Keep your mouth shut, maintain military bearing at all times, know your job, do your job.

If it is not unethical or immoral follow the order and move out!

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Mar 4 at 2015 5:42 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:42:34 -0500

I think NCOs are human as are you and what goes around generally comes around.
"The Army really needs to make sure if they are going to make somebody a specialist then that person should have general knowledge of ARs. Because it's really sad that as a private I have to correct a specialist."

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Mar 4 at 2015 5:48 PM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:48:18 -0500

Most People, and likely everyone, makes a mistake occasionally regardless of rank. No need to be a wise*** making an issue out of nothing

Response by SFC Donald Neal made Mar 4 at 2015 11:23 PM

SFC Donald Neal — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:23:24 -0500

All commanders have an open door policy, plus there are IG hotlines, and other means of communicating troublesome issues. I would think if your unit is that bad off, then it would be your duty to report these issues to the chain of command and the governor's office. I personally have driven Soldiers to the IG office so they could make a complaint. Never had a problem and as a former NCO, they were more than helpful in helping Soldiers understand how to read the regulation, how it is interpreted, and what the standard is. The IG is way underutilized as an asset for commanders and the NCO support chain. I have learned they are a great resource in helping create positive environments where all members of the organization know the standards of conduct, performance, and professional Army Ethos.

If this is the same NCO from your other postings, where you wanted to sucker them into a physical altercation; I recommend transferring to another unit, or moving to a different section/platoon. Have you thought about working towards promotion? You've put a lot of energy in identifying your NCOs short comings. Step up and join the Corps of Non-Commissioned Officers; there's plenty of room for great leaders. NCOs lead by example and if no one else is doing it, then why not be that person?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 11:40 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:40:21 -0500

In any work situation with other people especially the military, you have to show you are a team player and project a respectful and positive attitude. It can be done without being a "yes" person. If a co-worker or subordinate feels there is a better way to do it; or that it is out of compliance with a regulation, directive, or law, you can respectfully say that I believe that this is not correct; do you mind if i look it up to double check. (if so then show it to him/her.) A good supervisor would even encourage it. However, if the supervisor is not open to that, you could respectfully ask to go up the chain and ask to see the commander. If still not resolved then the IG. However, before doing that be sure to do your homework and get the regs/facts. In most situations, it shouldn't come to that if you just maintain a positive attitude, always communicate positively and avoid giving the impression of being a "whiner" (not saying you do--just general advise to anyone. Project the attitude that you are proud to be a soldier and to serve in the US Army!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 11:58 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:58:16 -0500

Further comment after looking at your profile. You would have to be a top soldier to be on the base honor guard. I don't know what kind of situation you are in now, but if you want to be a Tomb of the Unknown Sentinel in the elite Old Guard then continue doing that outstanding job, believe in yourself, your unit and your teammates. Be the person that your fellow soldiers and supervisors/commanders can depend on when they need a job done or even need help with something! Set the example and mentor your PFCs and Privates. You will have bad days. People will get into bad moods from time to time. Continue to hold your head high and stay positive!

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Mar 5 at 2015 12:33 AM

SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 00:33:28 -0500

What is the context of this engagement involving this NCO? Is he or she the same NCO you posted a few weeks ago about what to do if he hits you first or something along those lines?

If so, unless this NCO is your direct supervisor, I'd suggest you stay away from him. If he is your first line supervisor, consider going through the COC and get reassigned within the unit.

If the scenarios you keep presenting in this forum are real, it may not be long before you're reporting in as a PFC or PV2.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 1:42 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 01:42:12 -0500

The right answer is professionally and with the knowledge to back your sH$# up. But in reality most will not and will bypass it or ignore it.

I can still remember the faces of a collected group of soldiers when I told the CSM talking to us that his patrol cap should be fixed. All he did was fix it and say thank you. But obviously it could have gone a far more negative way. But that is just part of the way it is.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 5 at 2015 2:06 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 02:06:43 -0500

Sometimes I ask myself the same thing but not of NCO or even officers but of Soldiers. For example, a military police Soldier who conducts law enforcement duties yet I have to make sure he or she is driving around their assigned sector so they can develop a mental map. I shouldn't have to supervise that hard. It should be common sense. If an emergency occurs, they can respond in record time. Then this same Soldier asks me about a waiver to SPC(E4). So why aren't they rattling off TMs, ARs, TCs, and FMs to show me what they know?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 3:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 03:12:01 -0500

I need more info, what happened?

Response by CPT Brian Kent, PhD made Mar 5 at 2015 6:06 AM

CPT Brian Kent, PhD — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 06:06:08 -0500

You are correct. It is a shame this happens. I think some of it is because some NCOs do their job great and senior NCOs and officers promote them for doing a good job. They seem to ignore the total NCO. Commanders do not step up and set a standard for promotion packets. While in command if I had a special or sergeant that did not have college and correspondence points in their package, I would not provide them the max points allowed for me to provide. I briefed this the day I took the company flag. So 30 days later when I did it, several NCOs, my first sergeant and even my Sergeant Major talked with me about it. If you are going to lead you have to constantly educate yourself. That task is not just the major function of your job, but as a leader all of the supporting functions for the job. I encourage all individuals to always seek education both professionally and academically. The world is changing too fast today to take time off from learning.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 6:30 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 06:30:34 -0500

If you have issues how about you getting promoted and leading from the front.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 7:57 AM

HN Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 07:57:22 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Allright. Theres 2 things that are wrong with this. First, i understand your frustration trust me i do. i'm a 4 year e-3 with more experience than half of the e-4's above me. BUT there is a time and place to complain about things. This is not that place. Now if you had left it as...I have had problems with an NCO not knowing the regulations and i was wondering what the best way to respond to him then Great. That's exactly what this website is for. As for the Actual Questiong thats easy. You print off the regulation, highlight the point that your trying to put across with that NCO and pull them off to the side or an empty room to calmly discuss the situation. Yes that doesn't always work but thats why theres a chain of command. You start with the lowest level. Then you go higher. If i were you i'd take down the rant you posted because you never know who can be on this website watching what you post and are saying. Case in point my MCPO who was in charge of my last command works across the street from me now and is on this website.

In the future be more thoughtfull about what you post on here. This is just like FB and you never know whos watching

Response by SSG Don Waggoner made Mar 5 at 2015 9:22 AM

SSG Don Waggoner — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 09:22:20 -0500

I generally agree with 1LT Scott D. . However, there are occasions when senior soldiers in rank get it wrong. If, you can politely and respectfully argue the point, do so. If not, accept whatever it is the senior soldier is telling you and make the correction as ordered. Try to address the issue in a different venue, with your leader, or with someone senior in the chain of command to the person correcting you.

I look at it like this sometimes. If a cop pulled you over and wrote you a ticket for a bad taillight you know you didn't have, are you going to argue it there on the street and take a chance on greater consequences or are you going to take it to the proper forum and argue your point? Hopefully, you would take it to the proper forum. Most people believe the cop is always right, but you're entitled to a day in court to prove him wrong. You may not be entitled to a day in court to prove the senior soldier wrong, but maybe you can find a way to do so respectfully and politely. Otherwise, let it go, calm down, and move on soldier.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 2:35 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 14:35:04 -0500

The specialist should be courteous, respectful and demonstrate to the NCO the regulation in a tactful manner to ensure all are fully informed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 2:37 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 14:37:35 -0500

Yes we need more information

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 4:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:10:28 -0500

Never throw them under the bus because it will bite you. Let the senior NCOs groom them to become better. If need be, a reduction could be an option to put the young NCO where they should be.

Response by SGT JayMichael Neill made Mar 5 at 2015 5:33 PM

SGT JayMichael Neill — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:33:54 -0500

Right wrong or other here is my advice for you. In the military or civilian life you are going to encounter managers/ leaders like this. In each of these situations you have to be able to influence without authority ( easier said than done). 1. Try not to make it about calling them out on their lack of knowledge, they have to maintain control and this will only trigger their fight or flight response. 2. Pick your battles. If you continually call out leadership for their mistakes you will be branded as combatative and insubordinate. Leaders want problem solvers on their teams not problem creators, and rarely have I seen a conversation on insubordination care about who was right. 3. Be humble. You will go far with your knowledge if you let yourself. I learned to do the job as instructed until I was promoted to a position where I could influence change. Be the one to show subordination to become the NCO to show em how its done.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 5:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:41:20 -0500

How about from the front leaning rest or dying cockroach positions?

LMAO!!!!!! Jus' kidding. But it did sound good.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Mar 5 at 2015 8:29 PM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 20:29:29 -0500

I had this very thing occur, when I was a young Specialist, LOL. Many NCO's, such as this, think that it's only their responsibility to check down, when in fact, every leadership school will tell you you check up and down, any Senior NCO will tell you the same thing. It's everyone's responsibility to ensure the regulations are followed. You do need to correct him with respect to the rank, but, if you can show him in the AR, where he is incorrect, he'll get really pissed, and he won't be able to do anything about that, LOL.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Mar 5 at 2015 8:35 PM

SGT Tyler G. — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 20:35:13 -0500

There is more to being an NCO than having an encyclopedic knowledge of ARs, FMs, TMs, and TCs. While it's important to know the standards, with regulations the important thing is knowing where and how to look when a question comes up regarding a regulation.

If your NCO is correcting you based on regulations, and you believe them to be wrong, for the love of god do it tactfully. Tact will get you far in the military. Also keep in mind that your leadership is free tighten the standard as they see fit as long as it doesn't contradict the published regulations (i.e. they could make haircut standards stricter if they wanted to, but couldn't change how the uniform is worn).

The post was too vague to say much more so I'll leave it at that, though if you take one thing from this, let it be what I said about tactfulness.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 10:16 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:16:12 -0500

Yes, it is not a good look that a SPC has to correct an NCO, however as long as you do it with professionalism and tact there should be no issue. If the NCO is wrong and you can show them in the AR then it should be okay. I know as a MSG that I do not know every regulation in and out and hardly anyone could, so I was always tell my Soldiers what I believe it to be and if they can show me in the AR something different then okay.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 10:33 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:33:13 -0500

I think you should take the correction at parade rest and then... later ask the NCO if you can speak to him or her about a concern that you have.

Response by SPC James Bailey made Mar 5 at 2015 10:46 PM

SPC James Bailey — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:46:24 -0500

Now where have I heard of this problem before.............. Oh, that's right. I WORK with a specialist with very similar issues to yours, only he keeps his mouth shut in public and drags the NCO to the side to question the calls he makes. Learn to use your brain every once in a while, kid.

Response by SGT Joseph W. made Mar 5 at 2015 10:56 PM

SGT Joseph W. — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:56:42 -0500

Tact and respect is key. Any leader (speaking as a civilian) worth their salt should accept/appreciate correction/feedback.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 1:02 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 01:02:52 -0500

Here I thought I was going to assist a thoughtful Soldier in a tough situation but instead I find a self righteous whiner that knows all the answers and what's best for the Army.

Your question in the title is fine and it drew me here to help. However the underling comments draw a different picture and now I'd like to provide you an entirely different sort of lesson.

What do I think? I think you are likely an immature SPC that needs to grow up, stop whining and gain more worldly experience.

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made Mar 6 at 2015 1:17 AM

CSM Mark Gerecht — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 01:17:38 -0500

SPC Voye,
Before I provide my response I would ask that you look at the question from a different perspective.

Your question- How should a Specialist respond to an NCO who doesn't know the regulation?

So from a different perspective-
1. How do PFCs respond to SPC who doesn't know the regulations?
2. As a SPC do you know every Regulation, Field Manual, ADP, ADRP, ATTP, ATP, TC, TM, etc that you are required or should know to be a Specialist, Sergeant?
3. Should a Specialist be required to mastered every common task and every MOS specific task and know every regulation before they can be recommended for Sergeant?

If the answer to question 3 is YES- Then I should still be an E-1. Because I am far from a master of all tasks and I continue to learn everyday usually from my team members- superiors, peers, and subordinates. I usually find the person with the best solution is the person who has to actually do the work :)

So please take an honest look at the questions I posed.

WARNING WARNING WAR STORY WAR STORY INBOUND!

As a new SGT a SSG came up to me in the orderly room one day and said "Hey G (I guess GERECHT is hard to pronounce or something). Do you plan on making the Army a career? Absolutely I responded (See I come from a 2nd Generation Military family then my father, my brother, and myself all retired...get a life right! Wonder what Holiday Dinner was about at our house?)

Okay..this SSG looks at me and says" "Well GMAN then you better know what they CAN and CAN"T DO TO YA"! He then walks me over to bookcases that encompassed the entire orderly room (YES it was before the internet and PDFs, I think we had one computer in each company with a dot matrix printer) What he showed me were walls of Regulations, DA PAMs, TMs, and FMs

Being the idiot I was I went over and pick up a regulation, signed it out, and took it home and put it in my bathroom. Yes every time I went to the bathroom at home I read the Reg. I did the same thing at work. When I was done with a regulation I returned it and exchanged it for another one.

Then all of a sudden as a SPC I would get called in by my Chief of Section, Chief of Smoke, 1SG, LT, etc. Hey SPC G what you know about? Then I would share what I knew. It was not because I was smart it was because I cared enough to learn. Trust me there was plenty to learn. As a CSM there was still plenty to learn.

SPC Voye when you make Sergeant, don't be too hard on those know it all Specialist because sometimes they just want to play GOTTA! Guess what it does not end at SPC...SGT, SSG, SFC, and General some of them all like a good game of GOTTCA. They are the know it alls

Keep it all in perspective. You are going to run into jerks. They can't help it, after all they are JERKS! No matter where you go you will find substandard privates, specialist, sergeants, right up the chain....don't judge all of them by one painful person.

So how do you make that correction? You might consider doing it in a polite and respectful and professional tone. Pull them off to the side. Hey Sergeant not to be a jerk or anything but if I am not mistaken the regulation says this. I can grab it for you if you want me too. I don't mean any disrespect. I just want my Sergeant to be seen as on the money and squared away.

As the host of WWW.ASKTOP.NET I have answered several similiar questions. You might find this one useful: Can I tell my NCO to PISS OFF? Here is the
Link: http://asktop.net/q-and-a/can-i-tell-my-nco-to-piss-off/

I hope you don't mind that I was a little sarcastic in my respond with you. Just trying to lighten the attitude and tone of the discussion.

In the end its not about them its about you. You cannot control how others treat you but you can control how you respond to them. If you are dealing with a leader that is a pain in the butt simply- Be professional, factual, calm, and honest. That can really be tough sometimes as some leaders want to test you even push the point. However by being professional if it ever comes down to a hothead Leaders response or yours...usually the chain of command will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Meaning. Sergeant Joe goes to the platoon sergeant and says SPC Voye was disrespectful to me I want to recommend an Article 15. If your behavior is generally, usually, typically, professional, the platoon sergeant will most likely be like: SPC Voye...you sure Sergeant? Our SPC Voye...Really? Cause that ain't like him. Let me go speak with SPC Voye and get his side of the story.

Treat people like you want to be treated! If you are catching a lot of crap do a self assessment, look in the mirror, or consider doing an MSAF 360 assessment see MSAF360.army.mil. That is an awesome leadership tool!

Last WAR STORY I PROMISE at least for this POST-

When I was a platoon sergeant I already knew how to be a 1SG! When I was a 1SG I already knew how to be a CSM! or so I thought. The truth of the matter is I was more prepared to be a good 1SG after my first tour as a 1SG I was a better CSM after my 1st battalion. Sometimes humble ain't a bad place for assessing yourself.

Best of luck to you and take a depth breath. You will be a Sergeant soon. Shoot me an post when that 1st smart butt SPC shows up. I am sure we will both be able to laugh.

On a serious note always happy to help if I can. If you want to chat off line I am always willing to that as well. Wish you the best in all your future endeavors.
TOP

AskTOP.net - Leader Development for Army Professionals

Leader Development for Army Professionals

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made Mar 6 at 2015 8:16 AM

SFC Terry Murphy — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 08:16:08 -0500

I have seen soldiers that can pick up a book, memorize it, and use the information to cause problems, such as pushing haircuts to the exact millimeter, doing only the minimum required by regulation etc. Since they could quote the ARs chapter and verse, they did know the ARs better than I did, but by pushing everything to the limit, all I had to do is wait, sooner or later they would trip and fall over their own line.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 10:04 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:04:42 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member I'm voting you down and here is why: I'm taking from your lack of response, that this thread was more to stir the pot than asking a question you wished to get counseled on and learn from. It's a shame because there are some great folks on here from a variety of fields and ranks with a wide breadth of experience who could help you learn and grow as a soldier. I am sad for you because you are missing out on a wonderful opportunity. If you are in a truly bad unit with bad stuff happening, respectfully contact someone on here who can give you some sound advice. Otherwise, I would say you need to put on your big boy pants and grow up. Good luck to you and your military career.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 1:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:49:23 -0500

I have a hard time believing there is a NCO in the Army with no general knowledge of AR 670-1. And if someone's main concern is knowing Army regulations verbatim I think there is more important things to focus on like performing well at your job or task at hand

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 1:59 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:59:03 -0500

There is more to being a NCO than just memorizing orders. Being an NCO is to be the backbone of your unit. It's to lead with firmness, fairness, and dignity. Small unit leadership will either be the success or downfall of your commanders intent. If you know something is wrong then tactfully talk to him on the side and tell him why he was incorrect. I can tell you that throwing him under the bus in front of everyone will not get you far though. Remember that your one team and there to help each other.

Response by CPL Joshua Wood made Mar 6 at 2015 2:36 PM

CPL Joshua Wood — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 14:36:52 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member I understand your complaint and I am sorry there are some in this group that would tear you down. Your first line supervisor is never going to be perfect but the fact that he is trying to correct you shows that he cares about his position and is trying to do his job. Your duty is to 1st follow command...2nd do your research...3rd politely inform your Sgt. of AR regs at the APPROPRIATE time. Do your job and don't let it bug you so bad. The leaders you will have in your military career are never going to be perfect. Learn from them what they can teach you and learn from their mistakes so that you may be an effective leader if you get that opportunity.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2015 4:25 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 16:25:08 -0500

What do I think? From someone who has corrected and been corrected by NCOs: "Remember this moment, for someday there will be a Specialist asking the same about you."

Always remember that how you respond to people is important and learning how to tactfully correct a senior officer and/or NCO is an important part of everyone's career development.

I agree with 1LT Scott D. to the point where he says we need more information. We do not know why the NCO is correcting you. He or she could literally need a refresher on the regs, or he/she could be trying to teach you how to correct people tactfully. Then there's the possibility you and this NCO are caught in a vicious circle and it doesn't matter whether you are in compliance with whatever the regulation says.

If it was a one-time thing and the NCO acted professionally in all other respects: People are human. It might already be forgotten. If it was a one-time thing and the NCO acted unprofessionally: You have a chain of command and an NCO support chain who can assist, either formally or informally. If it is more than a one time thing, but the NCO acted professionally in all other respects: Make a note of it and see if you can speak to the NCO off-line, or have another NCO speak off-line. If it is more than a one-time thing, but the NCO acts unprofessionally: Document it and use your Chain of Command and NCO Support Chain.

Response by CW4 Brian Haas made Mar 6 at 2015 5:21 PM

CW4 Brian Haas — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 17:21:24 -0500

That NCO has an NCO above him...take it up there, just be tactful! That's why there is a chain of command and open door policies...too easy.

Response by MSG Kirt Highberger made Mar 6 at 2015 6:29 PM

MSG Kirt Highberger — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 18:29:06 -0500

In the proper setting have a professional discussion with the NCO.
I always encouraged my soldiers to think and ask if in doubt. How else do they learn to become leaders?

Response by SPC Fermin Maturin Cabral made Mar 6 at 2015 9:00 PM

SPC Fermin Maturin Cabral — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 21:00:49 -0500

I think there is more to being an NCO than memorizing regulations. Remember that no one is perfect, I don't care what rank you have on your chest.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Mar 6 at 2015 9:17 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 21:17:06 -0500

I have seen many E-3 and below think that they know more about the Navy, or military in general, than those of us who have been around for awhile.
While I do agree that there are some E-4 and above who don't know what is going on they are a small percentage of the overall bigger picture.
What makes you think that you are smarter than those who are senior in rank to you? Because you can quote your General Orders from memory? Or you always wear a squared away uniform?
So what will you do when you become an NCO and some junior soldier questions your knowledge?

Response by SPC Daniel Joslin made Mar 7 at 2015 6:50 PM

SPC Daniel Joslin — Sat, 07 Mar 2015 18:50:43 -0500

Thank you SGT may I have another, would be the proper response.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 2:45 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:45:47 -0400

Unless lives are in danger, I would just stay in my lane. There are plenty of folks above who can take care of it.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 8:05 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:05:05 -0400

You should read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey, and focus on aligning your circle of concern with your circle of influence. Don't know what I mean? Read the book, it will help.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 9:56 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 21:56:28 -0400

How is this still getting mileage?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 10:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 22:10:18 -0400

Well, SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member, I can't speak of the specifics of your situation... speculation and assumption wouldn't do anybody justice.

There are a couple of approaches. We are taught, from day-1 that everyone is responsible for on--the-spot corrections (after all, right is right... right?). But we also can point out individuals [senior to us] who will refuse correction and take things personally, as disrespectful. That being said,
#1 know your audience.

I'll try to keep this short.
#2 if you decide that direct discussion (notice I DID NOT say "confrontation"?!?) is reasonable presenting your point of view as a question, for your own development, with reference material (in this case the current version of AR 670-1 and DA PAM 670-1, with accompanying local policy letters). "Hey, SGT, I was studying for the board and came across this in AR 670-1. I noticed you addressing this with PVT Schmuckateli the other day, can you help me decipher what it means?"

#3 if the NCO is unapproachable (this means there may be toxic leadership issues), then I suggest going through your NCO support channel, so that someone of equal or higher rank may assist you in your approach.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Jun 30 at 2017 11:16 AM

SPC Rob Lewis — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:16:06 -0400

Just let it go...You're putting a target on your back.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2017 12:00 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:00:13 -0400

If the correction is valid and done with extreme tact and respect, which is paramount, said NCO should not take that out on a subordinate. That being said, there are conditions. 1. Be damn sure you are right without any doubt. 2. Do it the right way; in private, with respect. 3. Most importantly know who you are talking to and be damn sure it's worth whatever repercussions are headed your way. Do not be the dumbass that tells his SNCO some dumb shit.

Response by SPC Justin Foster made Jun 30 at 2017 12:32 PM

SPC Justin Foster — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:32:06 -0400

I can understand the frustration. Whether in the military or elsewhere, before you decide to correct someone, it is incredibly obvious that you should first make sure they are actually wrong. It doesn't matter what your recruiter told you. It doesn't matter what your mom told you. Verify that you are actually correct before correcting someone.

Response by SSG James Swarr made Jun 30 at 2017 12:33 PM

SSG James Swarr — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:33:40 -0400

How should you respond? With a "Yes Sergeant" as you were taught as a Private and move out quickly....now if your feelings were hurt that tremendously and the tears won't stop flowing, report directly to the TMC for some Motrin and foot powder than report to your first line supervisor and have THEM explain to you military bearing and tactfulness.

Response by SGT James (Jimmy) Crone made Jun 30 at 2017 12:38 PM

SGT James (Jimmy) Crone — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:38:19 -0400

You being a E4 always want to know your next rank higher as far as promotion with that being said it is never a good idea to challenge a senior NCO about anything related to AR whatever because it is looked at " being insubordinate especially if your not trying to be, but showing yourself being smarter doesn't prove anything either, it's like someone else said earlier you don't want to make enemies trying to be promoted to E5. You want as many friends as you can get.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2017 4:07 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 16:07:09 -0400

You should be put in a leadership position for your ability to lead. Not your ability to memorize and recite regulations.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Jun 30 at 2017 6:16 PM

CAPT Dave Woodard — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 18:16:21 -0400

Carefully! I would choose to find a time and place where it would be appropriate, and then with all the courtesy that is expected junior to senior.

Response by 1SG Roger Erickson made Jun 30 at 2017 7:06 PM

1SG Roger Erickson — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 19:06:43 -0400

Now I have been a retired 1SG for 20yrs but your question belies animosity toward NCO's, to begin with. While I agree there is an expectation of general knowledge and we expect even more when it comes to job knowledge. If you really wanted an answer it is called tack. If you want to put your rank on the line to be right well the lack of tack will get you to regulations that are punitive in nature, called UCMJ when you use no tack. As a 1SG once told me when I was an SFC you want to fall on your sword to be right be careful somebody might take your stripe. Being right doesn't give anyone authority and showing disrespect will get you something you don't want.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2017 8:45 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 20:45:26 -0400

Simple try to make the correct as respectfully as possible. If that doesn't work then go to his superior nco & inform then of the issue & leave it be.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2017 11:39 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Jun 2017 23:39:39 -0400

Sounds like you have an attitude.

Response by CW4 Richard A. Dropik made Jul 6 at 2017 3:50 PM

CW4 Richard A. Dropik — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 15:50:55 -0400

The Military operates by orders being carried out. If you believe the order was incorrect, made an appointment to see the commander and explain what happened. It is the commander that has the duty to take appropriate action on the one that was wrong. He will figure it out according to regulation.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2017 8:13 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:13:10 -0400

1. There is a rule for everything.
2. There is an exception to every rule.
3. The rules constantly change.

Being a good NCO and knowing every regulation update and revision are not necessarily the same thing. However, it is hard to be a good NCO if you are ignorant of current rules and regulations and unwilling to constantly educate and improve yourself. How can you uphold the standard and lead by example if you don't know what the proper standard is or what "right" looks like?

A subordinate must be tactful and professional when updating/educating/correcting a person of higher rank, but I believe it is appropriate to do so when such situations arise. Just be sure to do it properly and professionally. Unfortunately a lot of people do not keep current in their skills and knowledge. Many learned something once and then repeating it for life without regard for changes in regulations, technology, or equipment. If they learned it wrong initially, they often can't unlearn the wrong and accept the right. If the NCO is willing to embrace the new/revised information then I don't see the problem. If the NCO is unwilling to learn new tricks or update their education then it is time to get out. If the subordinate is just being a pain in the @$$ know it all, then it is time for a smoke session or other corrective measures.

But ask yourself: How many Soldiers knowingly violate Army Regulations, DoD regs, Exec Orders, and federal law (i.e. virtually everyone that chews/dips tobacco)? How many Soldiers ignorantly use incorrect terminology like "TA-50" when the proper doctrinal term is OCIE? How many Soldiers erroneously believe their new green combat uniform is called "OCP" when the proper doctrinal name is "ACU"? (Check AR 670-1 or read the label behind your right chest pocket to confirm) How about Soldiers who believe the old Army Green Service Uniform was called "Class A uniform" and have no idea what uniform classifications are? (alpha, bravo, charlie) What about referring to sticks and chalks in a convoy or repeating obsolete terminology and slang terms like "birth month audits" (it's annual record review), Kevlar (ACH is not made of Kevlar), flak jacket (it's body armor), etc.? How many regulations are 10 years old or older? Hell, even "current" Army regulations are not always in compliance with federal law or contain long obsolete information for years after the change (AR 670-1 of 2005 mentioned uniforms obsolete in 1995). More commonly, the regulation is modified by other pubs (i.e. ALARACT, MILPERS, Army Directive, policy memo, etc.) but ADP only posts the original reg and never mentions the changes.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Jul 13 at 2017 4:45 PM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 16:45:21 -0400

I have actually had this occur, myself and another Specialist were leaving the building, weren't outside yet, and had a fat NCO, and yes he was overweight and in the overweight program, try and correct our uniforms, which were within regulations. This NCO, SGT/E5 type, was wearing a flight suit that was way out of regulations for his size, protruding belly, and looked like they were high waters. This was the nomex, one piece flight suit. His belly was so big, it took enough slack out of the legs, it came up to the top of his boots. We respectfully acknowledged what he was saying, advised him that per our section NCO's we were within regulations, and any questions he could discuss it with our section NCO's. We then advised him, respectfully, that he was out of regulations for the normal wear of the none flight suit per AR670-1. He didn't like us pointing this out to him, argued with us, starting he was an NCO and we had no business correcting him. To which we responded with the Directive straight from Army leadership manuals, and reiterated by the CMS, you check up, just as you would check down. The moral is, as long as you respect the rank, and do not let anger get to you keeping your composure, and your own knowledge of the regulations is spot on, there is nothing that NCO can say about your corrections to them.

Response by SSG Michael Burdiss made Jul 16 at 2017 11:36 AM

SSG Michael Burdiss — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 11:36:08 -0400

Eat them up SPC. Always call out dumb ass leaders.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2018 6:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 May 2018 18:19:10 -0400

If an NCO is wrong, and you have the right information to TACTFULLY correct said NCO I don't see an issue. No one knows all of the ARs and some people actually study them. If your NCO is trying to correct you and is in the wrong then pull up the regulation bull him aside tactfully and teach him. A good NCO should listen when they are wrong and admit that they didn't know the correct answer. Will they be butt hurt about? Probably alot less of you do it tactfully and not in front of a bunch of other junior soldiers. If you try and put him on blast in front of everyone, then yes you will have a bad time.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2018 9:56 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:56:26 -0400

Don’t think anything without context. As a future NCO, gotta give the Paul Harvey when asking for advice

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Dec 4 at 2018 11:59 PM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Tue, 04 Dec 2018 23:59:33 -0500

This depends on your professional relationship, and the maturity of the NCO. Your tone and tact about the situation is also a factor. If the situation is not critical, immoral or illegal I would let it go. This may not be the hill you want to die on. Just remember for the future the right way to do things. If you feel that you need to address an issue, my best advice is to come at it from a mutual learning perspective. It needs to come across like your trying to make the squad or team better, and not correction of the NCO.

Response by SPC Larry Shahan made Jun 26 at 2019 2:17 AM

SPC Larry Shahan — Wed, 26 Jun 2019 02:17:56 -0400

As an aviation operations specialist, part of my job was insuring regulations were being followed. I had been studying the army since I was 6 and obviously some things change but people still came to me for information. I was lucky enough to have a command staff that understood my priority was to keep people out of trouble and safe. I was also specialist at the time. The key is diplomacy and tack. For instance, say the NCO is correcting you on the proper wear of your uniform. If he says "your American flag goes on the left shoulder" and you obviously know this is incorrect, you have a few choices. First you need to gage that person. Some people don't take criticism well and it's better to say "yes Sgt" follow the order and verify the information in the reg. If they are accepting of criticism "Sgt, I believe the regulations state the flag is supposed to be on the right shoulder, may I check the regulations" may work. Always refer to the regulations not just "you're wrong" but "I believe the regulations state____". As for the NCOs knowledge of regulations, if you are better informed, it's your duty to teach. If the NCO refuses to learn or has no interest, you should contact your command. Remember to use proper channels when contacting command. Also, remember that regulations change regularly. I was just messing with a friend of mine that's currently in AIT about uniform regs. I quickly found that I was the one who didn't know the regs as I've been out over 10 years. Some of your NCOs have been in a while and may not keep up with regs as they should. I'm sure you'll see a lot of people telling you not to correct others and I'm sure many won't like my answer but that's how it worked when I was in. Remember to be tactful, respectful, and always within regulations when correcting someone else. I hope this helps.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2019 11:01 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Jun 2019 11:01:21 -0400

It isn't so much about someone not knowing regulations. Not every NCO knows every reg In existence. And if they did everyone would hate life (anyone remember the regs on how your supposed to make love? Because it was a thing...) My point though is that someone must be able to accept correction when they are wrong, I encourage my soldiers to inform me if I do something against the regulations, simply because I may not know it and my priority is to train and take care of soldiers. I suppose the better question is how did you go about informing that NCO and how did that NCO respond? If you were respectful and you received a negative action then it is that NCO that must look into the mirror and answer some questions of himself.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2019 10:35 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Jun 2019 22:35:39 -0400

On the spot corrections are authorized with TACT

Response by MSG Tom Yuppa made Jun 27 at 2019 5:49 AM

MSG Tom Yuppa — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 05:49:46 -0400

There’s a tactful and respectful way to approach this. Think before you speak and hopefully you’ll make him aware of the error in private

Response by SFC William Ewing made Jun 27 at 2019 10:08 AM

SFC William Ewing — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:08:47 -0400

Every soldier should strive to improve each other.
Going up ,down, or sideways.
The goal is a better unit and ARMY.
False pride in rank hurts, a subordinate who is a know it all and tried to embarrass his NCO hurts.
The correction should be in a manner to improve without destroying.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2019 11:55 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:55:39 -0400

This topic is 5 years old, and only now came into my Facebook feed. I'll participate in the peanut gallery anyway. Ask yourself, what is achieved by your actions? Is making the correction necessary to succeed in what is going on right now relative to the actions you are trying to achieve. If you are not making the correction as a favor to them, and they are going to get pissed off, then don’t. Who cares…………. As a trainee I saw a CPT in BCT with US Army on both sides of his blouse. The correction was a favor to him because he was walking around like an idiot. He pulled off the name tape from this Cap, swapped them and carried on. Same BCT experience a Drill SGT got wind I planned on being an officer. I was 39 at the time and he straight up told me it wasn’t going to happen. Anyhow………… bit by tongue, and carried on through BCT. He was an Active Duty Drill SGT, and doesn’t know one iota of USAR regulations. His opinion also doesn’t matter one bit because he’s not in the chain of decision making for USAR Commissions. I could bless upon him my knowledge of USAR regulations, but no action is going to be taken, and then I painted a bullseye on my forehead.
If safety and mission is involved stop and make the correction. If a CSM happens to be taking a swig of coffee while walking, then well, maybe let it go.
My favorite experience giving advice that wasn’t taken was from a peer 2LT. In BOLC he was walking with coffee in his right hand. Not a regulation, but a good idea to swap hands. I mentioned he might want to swap hands so he can salute. No sooner than he blew me off he got LIT UP by a USMC CPT for failure to salute. I was right behind him rendered my salute to the good CPT and he waived me by to continue ripping to the other 2LT.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2019 1:23 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:23:12 -0400

There is a way to do just about anything, and there’s a correct way to communicate that you believe a higher ranking service member may be interpreting a regulation incorrectly. Notice that I didn’t say “correct”. You aren’t correcting. If you are given a legal order to wear uniform items a certain way, then you wear them that way. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that it appears to contradict regs, but this done tactfully and with respect. There is chance that he actually knows what he is talking about in the context of the situation. (Saying “all due respect” before being disrespectful is not a ‘get out of extra duty free‘ card). If you do this right, you have helped to better an NCO, and thus improved your own life. Do it wrong, and you’re an insubordinate crybaby who questions every order. Remember that commanders have great latitude to modify regulations such as AR 670-1. Your NCO may be following command policy. So first, know-really know-what you’re talking about before you speak. Second, use tact and proper military etiquette when you do speak. And last, just accept it and let it go if your objections are overruled. Maybe you’ll be a leader someday, and you’ll know that much more about how NOT to do it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2019 1:47 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:47:42 -0400

I see that things are working out well. In the 4 years since this post, you've gotten promoted from Specialist to Corporal.

Response by SSG Dennis O'Connor made Jun 27 at 2019 3:25 PM

SSG Dennis O'Connor — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:25:20 -0400

Did you HAVE to correct the NCO or did you WANT to? Because the difference in the two is immense. One of the things that make a good leader is that at one time they learned how to be a good follower. The army has more ARs and FMs than any individual could ever possibly hope to memorize so was making the correction more for their benefit or for yours?

Response by SPC Ruben Marin made Jun 27 at 2019 10:09 PM

SPC Ruben Marin — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 22:09:42 -0400

I'm from an Army where you knew your role and stayed in your lane. In that same army I also was given the freedom to correct any soldier with the understanding I did it with respect and tactfully. Misquoting a Reg/DA Pam/FM or anything else was common as there are so many of them. To correct an NCO over a simple mistake versus understanding your lesson needing to be learned is a mistake in itself on your part. You failed to understand you were in the wrong vs accepting the correction. If an NCO is constantly misquoting anything, your chain of command has failed you and your leadership. Retraining is needed for both of you. Why both? Because you're a team and you have a desire to teach your leadership. Therefore leadership and you should work together to rectify the problem. If they refuse to hear you out, it's too late for you bc you have been labeled as a problem child. Time to rethink your approach and start over elsewhere. Remember you are a team, not individuals. Work together to problem solve. When you start thinking you would make a better NCO instead of what do I learn from this, how can I help, and how do I respectfully and tactfully approach this issue? You no longer are humble and have become the problem. So retreat, regroup, rethink your plan of attack, and try again.

Response by SGT Sam Decker made Jun 28 at 2019 12:09 AM

SGT Sam Decker — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 00:09:46 -0400

Here's my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. Without a back story it's impossible to judge who was in the right. When i was E1-E4, there were occasions where i did see an NCO stating regs incorrectly. Rather than argue, i accepted, and later double checked my knowledge and carried on with what i knew was correct. But as i said, you have given no back story. While i agree, there are some NCO's that misquote FM's and AR's, there are also orders of magnitude more E4 and below "barracks lawyers" who just want to one-up a leader. Make sure you're not the latter or you will get crushed.

Response by PO1 William Ewing made Jun 28 at 2019 11:33 AM

PO1 William Ewing — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:33:59 -0400

That depends on a lot of things. Who are they, and what rank? What reg? Is it a general reg, something part of your job, or theirs? Is it not a reg, but they think it is? Or it used to be?
Do you want them to be mad at you and call you "mr. fucking instruction"? Do you just want them to not bother you with made up regs? Or do you want to hurt your career by rubbing their face in the 'fact' that you are smarter than them?

Response by SSgt Mike Joyce made Jun 28 at 2019 1:40 PM

SSgt Mike Joyce — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:40:45 -0400

The best way to grow as a person, and as a future leader, is to learn from those around you, even the bad ones. They teach you who you don't want to be. Remember that every one forgets things sometimes, even you. If you have an issue with a particular NCO, try going to another one. Not necessarily a senior one immediately as that may cause more problems than you intend to, but maybe another of similar rank and ask them to help.

Response by SFC George McMakin made Jun 28 at 2019 8:20 PM

SFC George McMakin — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:20:37 -0400

Had the library in my office

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2019 8:35 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:35:57 -0400

An NCO that does not know AR 670-1, has lost its way, or never had it.

Response by MAJ Gregory Moon made Jun 29 at 2019 12:41 PM

MAJ Gregory Moon — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 12:41:43 -0400

One thing to be careful of is interpreting issues that leave room for variance. If it is a black and white problem like a measurement. Then respectfully show the NCO. The when you make the NCO grade remember it when a a subordinate questions. Being right in a gothcha feels good in the moment but that doesn’t last especially when you’re on the receiving end.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2019 1:00 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:00:36 -0400

We have a diverse range of leadership and talent in the Army. Being a leader at any rank means doing the right thing. As a Junior leader, I was quick to prove a point . But as I grow and develop as a leader, that will not get you far. NCO'S are not perfect, Soldiers are not perfect, Officers and Warrant Officiers are not perfect. That is why we are a team. We look out for each other and share information for the good of the Army not for personal leverage. I have met some brilliant people who were great at their MOS and some who were well versed in other areas. As a Junior leader you need to figure out; how to make your unit and culture of your unit better everyday. NCO'S may not day it put loud but God dammit I love seeing Soldiers that a faster and brighter coming up the ranks. It let's me know that our country will he well taken care of in the future. Keep being a hard charger and doing what's right and you will go far in this Army.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Jun 29 at 2019 2:06 PM

MAJ Steve Daugherty — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 14:06:08 -0400

No one should resent constructive criticism done correctly. A good leader will solicit advice from subordinates for the good of the mission. I can appreciate how many times over the years a nurse or medic noticed something that was wrong or overlooked that changed a potentially bad outcome into a more successful one. I have appreciated the military in the fact if you have a superior who is really stepping on it, you have recourses to make them do as they are supposed to if they won’t listen to feedback from their team . Troops in combat can’t afford to have leadership who don’t recognize their limitations as lives depend on it

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Jun 29 at 2019 2:26 PM

SP5 Gary Smith — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 14:26:09 -0400

Barracks lawyers don’t do well.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 9:44 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 09:44:17 -0400

Gentlemen......I'm sure we've all corrected our leaders at some point, and have been corrected as leaders.
A funny story would be my SL having a questionably within regs haircut that most 1SG's would've had an FTX with. Within our squad, I jokingly reaffirmed to the squad that we're getting haircuts. A statement that was spontaneously understood and became a running joke within our squad.

While leaders are expected to be knowledgeable and pass that knowledge to his/her subordinates, our minds are not computers. I may not have always remembered the FM # for FM 3-22.9, but I guarantee I could employ and mentor my subordinates to do the same, that which is stated in that FM, and that's what Leader's Books are for. In a perfect world, you, as well as your peers will have an answer to your question by COB. This situation however seems more of a straw that broke the camel's back. I'm sure their are more serious examples to mention.

Response by SSG Bill Berger made Jun 30 at 2019 2:19 PM

SSG Bill Berger — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 14:19:53 -0400

I think this is a good example of what happens when soldiers are promoted too fast. I joined in 89 and it was rare to see an E5 with less than five years. And most platoon sergeants were 15+ years experience. During all those years they learned a whole library worth of knowledge and skills. They knew what the regs were and what resources were available. And in my opinion even more importantly they knew how to work the system. All of that allowed them to lead by example and to truly take care of their soldiers. Since 03 I have seen time in grade get less and less. I know a lot of soldiers who made E7 in 7 years. That shorter amount of time robbed those NCOs of the knowledge, skills, and wisdom that only comes from experience. That in turn sets a lot of soldiers up for the exact scenario this young soldier is dealing with. A SGT at 3 years may have significant experience in some areas due to deployments and combat. But they are lacking in all those areas that come with time and experience. On the soldier side the rapid rank advancement is nice, but in the long run he is being robbed of experience and being set up for this exact situation, or worse

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 4:20 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 16:20:57 -0400

I used to think the same way. I used to tell my NCOs that a "specialist should be an actual specialist in their field".

Now that I have a few years under my belt as an NCO, I realize that the volume of work, and the type of work change. I'm not a "specialist" anymore because i have fuys to do that for me. My job is to take care of soldiers. Sometimes i get a reg wrong, and when I do, I appologize and move on.

Sometimes I make the wrong call. I was a high speed, low drag, Army koolaid drinking E4 at one time not long ago. If you don't believe me, look at some of my posts on here.

Learn which battles to fight. We, the army, will only intentionally choose to fight battles where we have 3-1 odds. If you're wise, you'll apply that in all areas of your life.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 4:51 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 16:51:06 -0400

If you want to lead up the chain of command, that's great! But it will only be effective if you learn tact.

It's not just a matter of knowing the rules; serving in an organization is also about relationships. You've gotta have good relationships with those you are leading -- up or down -- in order to get lasting, effective results. If your people don't trust you, it doesn't matter if you think you're right, you're wrong. You've already lost their faith in you.

Remember, there are so many rules in the military, we've all been guilty of infractions we may not even be aware of. You are no exception.

Eat your slice of humble pie, learn from it, keep it in mind for when you're the senior NCO, and develop the tact to deal with the seniors that need correcting. I still do as a Chief Petty Officer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 5:06 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 17:06:30 -0400

Learn what you can. Sometimes the only lesson you can take it what NOT to do when you are in leadership.
This can even happen at the LTC level. Persevere and don’t let leadership’s insecurity deter you from your goal. However, choose your battles wisely.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 6:33 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:33:31 -0400

There is another way to approach this, Voye. The ‘praise publicly and punish privately’ can work both up and down in ranks. Unless he you and him are already bitter rivals, I hope that this was a personal conversation. Even if you were 100% correct in the situation, it pays dividends to help a fellow soldier out in a manner that will save face. If he is in your CoC, helping him may help your team/squad/platoon become stronger by politely educating him and saving him from from incorrectly spouting reg’s.
Plus there there is the personal clout you can build by giving a shit about the soldiers around you without being an asshole about it. It’s a skill to develop that I’ve seen many neglect - actually caring. Many become numb with all of the ridiculous tasks that are paid in front of us and the compartmentalized existence that some live in working in their specialties. But, taking a moment to try to make another soldier better, regardless whether that soldier is senior or subordinate, can only help.
But, putting the nice guy aside, if he is a headhunting piece of shit and has it coming, try to get past the moment as quick as possible without arguing publicly or putting yourself in a situation that ends up with paperwork.
Try to remember this, as an E-4, you have more time on your hands to focus on minutiae and snipe at the mistakes made by the NCO’s above you. I hope that you experience the task overload that is often dumped on your leaders and you can look back with some realization about why they did what they did or didn’t do. There are a lot of things to learn and plenty of AR’s and TM’s to digest but there are only so many hours in one day. Yes, demand better of him every single day, but, try not to be a dick about it.

Response by SMSgt Robert Anderson made Jun 30 at 2019 7:36 PM

SMSgt Robert Anderson — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:36:37 -0400

Getting promoted doesn’t always make you smart!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 9:54 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 21:54:38 -0400

Remember. Technically you can counsel anybody no matter rank....

Response by SGT Micheal Adams made Jul 1 at 2019 12:20 PM

SGT Micheal Adams — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:20:29 -0400

John Allison I stopped a bus at the ECP and the SCO was in there, I started checking IDs and he didn’t find it amusing. He told me everyone was good. So I continue taking up IDs and left the bus, haha he followed me. Repeated himself. I told him I understand but someone could have you at gun point and make you say that and blow up my FOB. I had a meeting with the First SGT. And SGMG later. No one was mad, just couldn’t believe I did it.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2019 12:51 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:51:53 -0400

He’s a NCO, Roger that and talk to your supervisor. Unless the guy is being a safety hazard, just say roger that and be done with it. Yes, NCOs should be knowledgable but they aren’t going to know every ref. If you Insist on not rogering up, than act dumb and say, Sgt, BM2, or whatever Air Force guys are called, I thought that the regs said this and that?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2019 2:00 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 14:00:09 -0400

I am finding it difficult to go through the comments on here. As an E6, I am expected to not only correct my junior sailors, but to also hold my fellow E6s and my senior leadership accountable. All corrections should be help behind closed doors. This way, no one gets hurt feelings, corrections are made, and no one is embarrassed in front of others. Being in leadership does not make us impervious to making mistakes when it comes to regulations. If a junior is correcting you, it shows he has enough respect for the uniform to help you, as his senior, and he is showing leadership skills he has learned himself.

Now, if the junior sailor is calling you out in front of others, that is something that needs to be fixed, but if he is doing it respectfully, then listen, and go through the regulations with him and make it a lesson for both of you.

Response by SFC Kevin Cox made Jul 1 at 2019 10:44 PM

SFC Kevin Cox — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:44:36 -0400

There's nothing wrong with correcting A NCO The only problem is when and where you correct him never correct and an NCO In front of a class or In front Of a formation And it's best that when you do Pulled The NCO to the side Have a copy of the regulation that you're talking about so that he can see for himself

Response by PO3 Brandon Pescatello made Jul 1 at 2019 11:20 PM

PO3 Brandon Pescatello — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 23:20:32 -0400

Right or wrong, he's got the rank. You have to respect that more than he should know a regulation. The line "obey all orders from those appointed over me" covers this. If he is really wrong, speak with him or her in private, in a calm manner. Chances are, they will fix themselves. However, to answer the question, a specialist should do what the nco says, and carry on. The army doesn't pay you to be an individual.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 7:59 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Jul 2019 07:59:05 -0400

Going to have to agree with the majority of the comments here. I get that we all have had occasions where we had to “lead up” at some point in our careers, but airing grievances on social media doesn’t solve anything. My advice is square yourself away and do a better job when you earn your stripes, all the while respecting those who earned them before you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2019 2:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:04:23 -0400

NCOs are still just human beings and make mistakes. I think of myself as pretty current on my regulations, however regs change all the time and ALARACTs are published often. Nod your head, say roger, then go print the pertinent page of the req in question, then address the NCO in a proper manner. Unless the NCO is a shitbird, they will appreciate the update.

Response by SFC David Johnson made Jun 20 at 2020 6:42 PM

SFC David Johnson — Sat, 20 Jun 2020 18:42:44 -0400

Sounds like your a smart ass. Your tone just in this message sounds just like you have no tact.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Jun 20 at 2020 7:08 PM

SSG John Jensen — Sat, 20 Jun 2020 19:08:07 -0400

Drill weekend after finishing a school (I forget which one), I told 1SG this certain thing is now part of his job, He said ok he would check it out, and thanked me. Another time I told him the Army had changed something and he no longer had that privilege, he was not pleased with me. He didn't try to get me for it, but, he wasn't pleased.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2020 1:06 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:06:58 -0400

Tactfully. It's an art form.

Response by PO1 Eric Justice made Jun 21 at 2020 3:11 PM

PO1 Eric Justice — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 15:11:07 -0400

I know, in the Navy, regulations change all the time, especially the uniform regs which seem to change more than the CNO changes underwear. To expect people to remember them all is impossible. Now the way you handle it is like this: You take the correction from your NCO, say "Aye aye, Petty Officer," or "Yes, (insert senior rank here)," in your free time pull up the regulation that you were corrected on, make sure there are no new or recent updates to said regulation, we call them NAVADIMS in the Navy, print it out, politely ask to speak to the PO/NCO that corrected you, and in a professional manner say, "Hey, just thought you should know, here's the regulation/update to regulation you spoke to me about earlier." You will find that either there was an update to the regulation, that the person simply forgot, or was misinformed themselves, and most of the time the PO/NCO will be grateful for the information. Like SGM Oldsen, I have been corrected by subordinates many times. I have also corrected many a senior and as long as it's done politely and with courtesy, it's not a big deal. However, if you're obtuse and demeaning, you should be ripped a new one. Oh and whatever you do, don't go bragging to you boys about how you schooled SGT. So-in-so. Bad gas travels fast and you can find yourself on the receiving end of shit duty for awhile.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2021 8:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 May 2021 20:06:22 -0400

670-1 changes more often than you think. He may have known it once.

Still. You must be respectful. If he corrects you, just say “Roger SGT, I’m going to double check the reg on this, if it turns out I’m not wrong I’ll get back to you.”

Then you go on army pubs, get the right thing. Print the page and put it in front of him.

Whatever you do, do NOT tell him he’s a shitty NCO for not knowing something. That’ll get you in worse trouble.

The best revenge is your own success. Focus on you, and your career. Make points, work your ass off, get promoted. Chances are your entire leadership isn’t like the person you dislike. Surpass him.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Jun 25 at 2021 8:07 AM

SPC Rob Lewis — Fri, 25 Jun 2021 08:07:25 -0400

Short answer is to shut up and roll with it, this happened to me more than once form a NCO that could understand that the sun came up in the East and went down in the West. Or you could risk becoming that "guy" and take it to a higher level.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2021 12:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jun 2021 12:43:40 -0400

I don’t think it’s pathetic. All newly promoted Soldiers to the ranks of the NCO Corps do not know everything. You would want to think that. That is not the case though. Not every CSM you come across will know everything. I as a CSM that has been the Army for 25 years, do not know everything. One thing I will not do is try to pretend that I do. I do know a lot and I am willing to share what I do know. But a SGT or even a SSG is still learning as well. You as a SPC do not know everything. You just so happen to know something that NCO tried to tell you about. That is good. Just explain to them that this is the correct way without being disrespectful. That will go a very long ways. We all learn something new all the time. You will see when you reach SGT, SFC, 1SG or even CSM.

Response by SSG Stacy Carter made Jun 27 at 2021 12:26 AM

SSG Stacy Carter — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 00:26:25 -0400

There are a couple of ways to handle this. First, you could attempt to correct the NCO while they are trying to correct you.. THIS WOULD BE BAD! Second, you could stand there at the position of parade rest like a good soldier and take the correction without fuss. Then afterwards go and get the regulation and ask to speak to the NCO who corrected you to show them what it actually says.. dont be alarmed if that doesn't go over well either. Some times NCOs do not like being corrected no matter how wrong they are. Another option would be to go to the NCOs supervisor and bring the matter to their attention. Let a NCO handle the issue. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GET INTO A PISSING CONTEST WITH AN NCO YOU WILL LOSE! In my opinion option 3 is the best course of action.