SGT Private RallyPoint Member 5591760 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>One of my soldier was involved in an accident on base driving the military vehicle and crash with a pov, I was asked to write him a counseling recommending for UCMJ. the accident is still under investigation and I am really confused on what to write. I am a new NCO, that want to make sure I&#39;m doing the right thing. I really do not know how to start this counseling. anyone with a suggestion? 2020-02-23T15:01:49-05:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 5591760

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>One of my soldier was involved in an accident on base driving the military vehicle and crash with a pov, I was asked to write him a counseling recommending for UCMJ. the accident is still under investigation and I am really confused on what to write. I am a new NCO, that want to make sure I&#39;m doing the right thing. I really do not know how to start this counseling. anyone with a suggestion?

2020-02-23T15:01:49-05:00 2020-02-23T15:01:49-05:00 CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member 5591820

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>In your words - this guy screwed up bad enough that he needs to stand tall...fill in the blanks.

2020-02-23T15:28:28-05:00 2020-02-23T15:28:28-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 5591837

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Just write what they failed to do. Anyone can get in an accident that&#39;s not their own fault. Identify what errors in judgment they made, or preparations they may have failed to make. If you can&#39;t identify anything they did wrong, then refer it back to the person telling you to write it. Tell them to write the counseling.

2020-02-23T15:36:16-05:00 2020-02-23T15:36:16-05:00 SFC Casey O'Mally 5591895

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Remember that a counseling statement is simply a record of a conversation.<br />My recommendation: Go in with a handwritten bullet list of things to discuss (in this case, likely the 5 Ws). Have a CONVERSATION about what went wrong and why. Discuss what can be done in the future to prevent a similar situation, not just for this Soldier, but for all Soldiers.<br />Then, based on your discussion (including preventive measures) determine a course of action.<br />Do NOT make promises, deals, or threats that you do not have authority for (i.e. UCMJ will or will not happen, driving priveleges will or will not be revoked, etc.), but DO lay out possible consequences.<br />Write on your hand written form responses and pertinent data as the conversation proceeds.<br /><br />After all of that is done, then go back and type and &quot;prettify&quot; the form. Go back over it with the Soldier to ensure it properly encapsulates the conversation.<br /><br />This is how almost ALL counseling forms should be done, honestly. But it is especially important in situations where you may not have all of the facts or where the Soldier needs a COUNSELOR not a judge.

2020-02-23T15:59:37-05:00 2020-02-23T15:59:37-05:00 SPC Private RallyPoint Member 5591950

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Do civilian vehicles get compensated for that?

2020-02-23T16:16:30-05:00 2020-02-23T16:16:30-05:00 SSG Brian G. 5591996

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Ok, so the got into a car accident. It happens. Start by verifying that the troop has a valid drivers license and has the necessary training to get a military drivers license. Next get a copy of the accident report. Or the officers report who was on scene. Then ask the troop to recount what happened, word for word. Based on this you should be able to get a fairly clear idea of what happened. <br /><br />Based on the above, then sit down with the troop and have a loosely written counseling, you will later go back and type it up, and lay out that driving a privilege, and a serious responsibility and that involvement of a piece of government property in that is a serious event and should command decide, there could be UCMJ action involved. Lay out any errors that the troop made, if any but also lay out their positives that they made too. <br /><br />Stress safety in your counseling. Let your counseling state the facts and observations and follow the regulations. <br /><br />Lastly, once you have it typed up, I would avail myself of my CoC open door policy and speak to the 1SGT unless he was the one that directed you to counsel the troop. Show the counseling to the 1SGT and get his or her opinion on the matter. Then providing they are ok, present said counseling to the troop, and have them sign, date and add any remarks. Done. <br /><br />This allows you to be thorough and neutral without railroading a troop and keep your CoC in the loop and for input. It may be a case of a NCO getting over zealous in recommendation for UCMJ.

2020-02-23T16:28:30-05:00 2020-02-23T16:28:30-05:00 Landrew Usoalii S. 5592039

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>As stated by fellow NCOs, a 4856 is a must in everything that happens to an individual while serving in the ARMY. <br />1- gather facts<br />2- review and clarify with individual<br />3- write it in a summarize of what, when, why, where, how, and who in bullets to stress the indivual(s) in question.<br />its just a record of conversation and facts and to cover everyones asses. But to counsel someone and recommending them for UCMJ is far fetch and unnecessary if there is still an open 15-6.

2020-02-23T16:44:53-05:00 2020-02-23T16:44:53-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 5592083

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Always have to have an incident such as this on record. If it ends up not being their fault, then it is what it is. Be sure to have that &quot;Magic Bullet&quot; on there.

2020-02-23T17:00:57-05:00 2020-02-23T17:00:57-05:00 MSG Dan Castaneda 5592338

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Shit happens. I rear ended a vehicle in Key West totally my fault on TDY. My rental car was totaled and was cited by local police. My unit only asked if I was ok and then proceeded to help me get all my ducks in order to ensure I did not get sued later. They were great and that’s why I’ve scarified so much for the Regiment.

2020-02-23T18:29:28-05:00 2020-02-23T18:29:28-05:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 5592394

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I concur with the other&#39;s comments. <a class="dark-link bold-link" role="profile-hover" data-qtip-container="body" data-id="136036" data-source-page-controller="question_response_contents" href="/profiles/136036-ltc-jason-mackay">LTC Jason Mackay</a> list is a great outline.<br />I suggest you get clarification on whether the commander suspects the Soldier violated the UCMJ (if so, ask which arricle(s)). If so, I suggest contacting JAG to determine whether a Rights Warning Procedure/Waiver, DA Form 3881, should be completed. If the CoC believes the Soldier violated the UCMJ and has directed you to counsel the Soldier, it is reasonable to presume you&#39;re going to ask questions during the counseling session and the Soldier will make statements (say things spontaneously, or in response to your questions).

2020-02-23T18:43:02-05:00 2020-02-23T18:43:02-05:00 SPC Stewart Smith 5592488

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I&#39;m slightly confused. You were told to write this soldier a counseling, recommending UCMJ, for an accident this soldier may not have been responsible for? Or was he definitely at fault?

2020-02-23T18:58:32-05:00 2020-02-23T18:58:32-05:00 1SG Alan Boggs 5592614

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think Col Grierson is giving good advice. Be careful. What kind of investigation is ongoing? Were there injuries? There should be a 15-6 underway and you shouldn&#39;t do anything to muddy the water for those investigating the incident. I think you need to exercise some tactical patience and lets this develop

2020-02-23T19:27:06-05:00 2020-02-23T19:27:06-05:00 SGT Robert Wager 5593280

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would ask my NCO support channel how are you supposed to request UCMJ punishment before the investigation is complete? <br /><br />If the soldier was in violation of a specific article covered under the UCMJ that is separate from the actual accident that is one thing. If he was operating a vehicle he was not licensed or an improperly dispatched vehicle (you are going to have to prove the soldier knew he was not supposed to do these things) for example. If you are being ordered to issue counseling for the cause or fault of the accident before the investigation is complete that is some shady stuff and I would steer clear.

2020-02-23T23:59:12-05:00 2020-02-23T23:59:12-05:00 SSG Tom Montgomery 5593326

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Be honest. Tell them that they need to wait until the investigation is completed.

2020-02-24T00:42:26-05:00 2020-02-24T00:42:26-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 5593978

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Simple answer is you don&#39;t. Wait until the investigation is over. One of the most annoying things we see at the MP station is unit&#39;s jumping ahead such as getting an IO when the investigation is still open by the MPs. Let the MPs do their job, close the case, then take it from there.

2020-02-24T07:44:50-05:00 2020-02-24T07:44:50-05:00 MSG Gary Eckert 5594136

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>If the soldier receives a federal district court ticket for the accident, they cannot receive UCMJ for the same offense(s). At minimum, you will need to know they received a district court summons before you can start the UCMJ recommendation process. Once you know that, I would check with the lawyers about what other articles may apply.

2020-02-24T08:32:00-05:00 2020-02-24T08:32:00-05:00 Sgt Dale Briggs 5595244

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>You need to talk to your company Gunny or your Army equivalent before I’d do anything or put anything in writing. If you get it wrong it can’t be undone, I’d look to Sr NCO Leadership here.<br /><br />We had an accident at Bragg with blackout lights only, a Cpl was skating and catching some Zs, and the SSGT directing the convoy move failed to see him and he was run over and killed by a 10 ton. Brought up the SSGT on charges and the driver as well, I was EAS before this concluded but the SSGT was about to have a nervous breakdown , his hair was falling out. How the driver was charged is senseless, if anyone’s been under blackout lights you know you literally can’t see shit. That skating Cpl was at fault.

2020-02-24T14:01:08-05:00 2020-02-24T14:01:08-05:00 1SG Bill Farmerie 6803105

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>You can counsel them on their military driving privilege&#39;s are suspended until the investigation is completed and what the consequences would be if he were to be found at fault

2021-03-07T13:18:39-05:00 2021-03-07T13:18:39-05:00 Sgt Dale Briggs 6803218

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Why counseling when it’s still under investigation? If there’s no final determination of fault it seems premature. Are we presuming fault without proof? <br /><br />What are you going to tell him, be careful? It might have not been his fault, to be determined.

2021-03-07T13:56:09-05:00 2021-03-07T13:56:09-05:00 Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis 6803273

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>In this case, I would quote Sgt Friday, from &quot;Dragnet&quot;<br />&quot;Just the facts, ma&#39;am. Just the facts.&quot;<br />Focus on the facts.

2021-03-07T14:13:04-05:00 2021-03-07T14:13:04-05:00 SSG Bill McCoy 6803384

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would at LEAST speak to the MP Traffic Section to determine if they plan to cite him. Actually, at the unit level, nothing should be done until the accident report is received (DA Form 3975). It would sure look bad if his accident wasn&#39;t his fault, or even if so, there were mitigating circumstances - like an animal that might cause a driver to swerve.<br />I would suggest to whoever &quot;asked&quot; you to write the statement to hold off until the FACTS are KNOWN.

2021-03-07T14:51:40-05:00 2021-03-07T14:51:40-05:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 6803550

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I met that guy in the late 80&#39;s at Ft Bliss. He was drag on a group of about 5 vehicles, there were no road guards and He blew through a red light and took out a rental I was driving a couple of Warrants around in. Mp&#39;s didn&#39;t give Me any kind of citation.

2021-03-07T16:18:51-05:00 2021-03-07T16:18:51-05:00 SGT Lorenzo Nieto 6804003

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Give this person your understanding let this person know you are there for them no matter what,

2021-03-07T19:06:21-05:00 2021-03-07T19:06:21-05:00 SFC Randy Hellenbrand 6804243

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>WHAT???? Counseling?? Oh wait, this is the &#39;you got a jay walking ticket and now you get a RE4 discharge code&#39; Army. The only thing you could give is an evaluation of his past performance. Don&#39;t let some Jag Rat talk you into anything about your soldier. <br /><br />And why the F is this year old post coming up on my current feed???

2021-03-07T20:18:30-05:00 2021-03-07T20:18:30-05:00 SMSgt Bob Wilson 6804634

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Attentiveness, rules of the road, being aware of their surrounding, etc. You do not have to refer to the accident. All statement should be general in nature. &quot;Pvt Smith was counseled on proper operation of a military vehicle to include the rules of the road and attentiveness. He/She was reminded to follow all required safety requirement when operating a military vehicle.&quot; REMEMBER: You are not the judge and jury. Your reason for counseling is because the individual was involved in any accident, NOT that they caused it.

2021-03-08T00:12:42-05:00 2021-03-08T00:12:42-05:00 CW3 Kevin Storm 6806024

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Does it appear the Soldiers is at fault? If your gut tells you that, odds are they are. You can counsel them on having the accident, query them on what they could of done better in that situation. Are they taking responsibility or denying it was their fault?

2021-03-08T12:45:52-05:00 2021-03-08T12:45:52-05:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 6806120

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&quot;You are being counseled due to your involvement in an accident on XXX at XXX. The unit is conducting an investigation and your military drivers license will be suspended until the investigation is completed.&quot;

2021-03-08T13:20:19-05:00 2021-03-08T13:20:19-05:00 Sgt Dale Briggs 7555840

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Company Gunny or your equivalent, get their advice and their help.

2022-03-04T17:24:28-05:00 2022-03-04T17:24:28-05:00 2020-02-23T15:01:49-05:00