How should I handle the punishment and flag from a UCMJ action when there is lost paperwork?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Mar 2021 23:34:15 -0400

If you’re pending UCMJ for a Company Grade Article 15 and you’ve been read and is now flagged and everybody loses the counselings

Should I back date the counseling’s so I receive my punishment and get unflagged?

Will the flag be lifted over a period of time?

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Mar 20 at 2021 12:20 AM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:20:37 -0400

I don't know the technical answer but if you know you're guilty as charged, take responsibility for screwing up and work to correct the deficiency. You will be seen as having at least a little integrity

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 12:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:47:07 -0400

I would refer you to AR 27-10 and ATP 6-22.1 for an answer that you didn’t really need to get from here, especially as an NCO

Response by SSG Brian G. made Mar 20 at 2021 12:48 AM

SSG Brian G. — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:48:45 -0400

Not your responsibility. You are the one getting punished. Your commander should have the Article 15 paperwork and the counseling's mean nothing. The important thing is that you serve your punishment. There is a record of when you were read and the punishment begins. Your flag will be lifted when you complete the terms of your punishment.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 20 at 2021 12:48 AM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:48:51 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Backdate? “Falsification of records”? Please do not!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 1:27 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 01:27:26 -0400

Backdating counseling forms is no Bueno. Plus, if you're the one getting the 15, why would you back date your own counseling forms? Your Flag will be lifted after the punishment phase of the 15 has been served and the Request for Removal has been filled out, signed, submitted and processed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 2:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 02:04:13 -0400

Why would you do that? No don't. If your leadership lost the counselings, you need to go talk to JAG and find out what happens.

This is not your responsibility. It's your leadership and if they couldn't do their job to keep track of paperwork, that's on them.

Response by CW2 Michael MacInerney made Mar 20 at 2021 8:35 AM

CW2 Michael MacInerney — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:35:48 -0400

Even if it was legal, back dating them only shows trouble with leadership responsibility. A person willing to accept responsibility for their actions and show a willingness to improve might consider accepting appropriate punishment though.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 20 at 2021 10:16 AM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:16:06 -0400

You have a right to justice. If those prosecution gets you are claiming incompitence as as excuse they need to either press the charges or drop them

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Mar 20 at 2021 11:01 AM

1SG Ernest Stull — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:01:15 -0400

If you now meet the standard for the reason you were flagged and you are eligible for renlistment then see your career counselor or the BN. S1.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Mar 20 at 2021 5:00 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:00:50 -0400

If your unit lost the Art 15 packet, your 1SG needs to be given a new job.

Response by SGM Jeff Bullard made Mar 20 at 2021 9:59 PM

SGM Jeff Bullard — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:59:09 -0400

Integrity is like virginity once you lose it you can’t get it back. You as a Soldier know what is right.

Response by SFC Gerald Gatlin made Mar 21 at 2021 9:42 AM

SFC Gerald Gatlin — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:42:40 -0400

Sounds like you were flagged pending UCMJ action and everyone involved decided on non-judicial punishment. You were read the Article 15 and now you are being informed that the supporting paperwork was lost. The counselings are not a requirement for an Article 15. Everyone is acknowledging what happened and prepared to proceed with punishment. The flag will be lifted once the Article 15 is imposed. DO NOT make up paperwork. That's a whole separate issue for anyone suggesting it.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Mar 21 at 2021 1:48 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 13:48:17 -0400

Unless the Article 15 involves the failure to correct actions found in previous Counseling statements, it's not required. If you were read the Article 15 and agreed to accept the Commanders findings, that should be all that is required. The flagged should be for pending UCMJ action and should be removed once the punishment is completed. Be aware that at your rank, this will go on your record. Whether it is on the restricted is up to the CO.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Mar 22 at 2021 2:32 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:32:04 -0400

As I recall a flag should be lifted after the time for the punishment is over and then +90 days. What type of unit are you in where everything got lost?

Response by CH (CPT) Jerry McGowin made Mar 27 at 2021 3:06 PM

CH (CPT) Jerry McGowin — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 15:06:38 -0400

it should be completely dismissed.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2021 4:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 16:40:16 -0400

Upon final punishment decision by your commander the flag should have been changed from "Adverse Action" to "Punishment Phase." Punishment phase flags fall off automatically because you must put the date punishment will be complete on the 268. Since the Art 15 is done you don't need the counselings anymore.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2021 8:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 May 2021 20:06:18 -0400

Unpopular opinion:
If someone else screws up the process they are legally required to get right, your punishment should not happen.
And if you get pissy about someone not getting their punishment, YOU need the punishment for screwing up the right things.

Response by SSG Paul Carrier made Jun 6 at 2021 3:19 PM

SSG Paul Carrier — Sun, 06 Jun 2021 15:19:56 -0400

If someone is telling you that you need to back date official documents you need to politely refuse.

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Jun 17 at 2021 10:02 AM

SGT Robert Andrews — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:02:17 -0400

DEFER TO JAG if command screws up your Art 15 paperwork. Counclings support cause for Art 15. But if you have questions defer to JAG and do not backdate or re create anything.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 17 at 2021 10:08 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 10:08:50 -0400

Get with your local defense counsel at JAG and seek advice in tHis situation.