How should Vietnam War recipients of the Bronze Star Medal interpret more recent liberal awarding of the Bronze Star?

2015-02-20T15:20:15-05:00

I know this has been covered ad nauseum on this site before, but I'd like specific advice from the Rally Point community regarding a deeply personal slant to the issue.

My uncle is a Vietnam veteran (Army airborne draftee ca. 1967). He has severe PTSD and for him, the war rages on. Almost every conversation, no matter how benign, somehow turns to his time in Nam.

During his tour in Vietnam, he earned a Bronze Star with V device. It is a source of immense pride for him. He is a man of few possessions, but his citation has always been a framed and displayed proudly in his home. The short synopsis of his citation is that in the midst of a heavy firefight, he exposed himself to enemy fire to drag a wounded Soldier from his platoon to safety--saving his life.

Unfortunately, he recently discovered that folks in Iraq and Afghanistan are earning Bronze Stars for meritorious service in theater (i.e. simply being there). This made him question the prestige of his award. I explained to him that, yes, the basic award is being issued more liberally but his V device is the discriminator. His award is indeed special and continues to garner high respect.

For the record, he is being treated by VA mental health professionals for his PTSD. This damn medal thing just wounded him pretty deeply (logically or not). The sum of my 20 years don't approach the intensity of his single year in Vietnam, but since I'm his nephew and I served, he confides in me often. He seems to have accepted my explanation, but I can tell it still bothers him. It's as though he feels like a fool for being so proud of his medal all these years. Any advice from the community is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Feb 20 at 2015 3:22 PM

2015-02-20T15:22:47-05:00

Yeah, I'd say the Bronze star has been cheapened a bit in most services. No V? Then I'm a skeptic.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 4:42 PM

2015-02-20T16:42:54-05:00

The Bronze Star with V will always be held in higher regard then a Bronze Stars Meritorious. In Vietnam, it was about a 1 BSM /V for every 3.2 BSM Meritorious Awarded.

Meanwhile for OIF we have a 1 BSM /V for every 41 BSM Meritorious Awarded. OEF has 1 BSM /V for every 31 BSM Meritorious Awarded.

At least for the numbers HRC gives for the US Army.

https://www.hrc.army.mil/TAGD/Awards%20and%20Decorations%20Statistics%20by%20Conflict

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 4:52 PM

2015-02-20T16:52:51-05:00

I've never thought much of the idea of giving out the BSM for anything other than valor. I think there should be a different award for the meritorious service. No offense to anybody with that type of award. I just think that the BSM should be reserved for that valorous act. But what I think and $4.79/ will get you a grande mocha latte at Starbucks...maybe.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 20 at 2015 4:54 PM

2015-02-20T16:54:09-05:00

BSM w/o V = MSM in an AOR....at least that is my personal take on it based on how it has been given out for the last decade or so.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 5:08 PM

2015-02-20T17:08:52-05:00

Not that my opinion or say in the topic should mean much, but the Bronze Star with a Valor "V" or Combat "V" will always and always has been regarded with higher respect and virtue to the recipient - even above those who earned the same medal for "meritorious achievement". Those who are awarded the medal for heroism should be proud of what they did! There is no shame in earning any award if it is for valor.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 5:13 PM

2015-02-20T17:13:19-05:00

I wrote a command post on this. It was something that is very contested in the military. The fact is still that the Bronze Star started out as a service award. Then the V device came out. The Bronze Star was blanked in WWII in mass to any infantryman with a CIB. Initially it was issued in bulk. That is why you will see some veterans get their Bronze Star now a days. They had no clue they got it on their record and a family member will found out. The Purple Heart was even given out as a service Award for a short period of time until the Meritorious Service Medal was introduced. It is not so much the medal that is of value. It was the Act that was worthy of such an award that is important. You could find MoH winners who go it for some questionable acts. I really wonder if "Running down an Indian and Killed him" is worth the Medal of Honor compared to some of our modern day awardees. But I doubt John Comfort really cared. But when you get into the game of comparing your service to others you are going to venture into a dangerous area. I served as an infantryman in combat. I part fourth a substantial sacrifice, maybe more than others but that doesn't make my service any better or worse than others. It is about service and doing the best you can. It is about his commander thinking he act of Valor was worth the Medal as apposed to being a S1 in Iraq.

http://www.rallypoint.com/command-post/military-misconceptions-the-bronze-star-medal

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Feb 20 at 2015 5:40 PM

2015-02-20T17:40:16-05:00

Thanks for the replies everyone. For me , I couldn't care less about the politics of the medal. I didn't earn one, nor do I feel I deserve one.

To me, my beloved uncle sacrificed his mental health for his country. If a BSM gives him solace, so be it, and I'll defend his honor to the end. I just want him to be well. Thanks again everyone.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Feb 20 at 2015 8:54 PM

2015-02-20T20:54:19-05:00

A Bronze Star Medal with no "V" on an officer . . . about as impressive as a Good Conduct Medal on an enlisted person. No offense intended.

Response by SP5 Michael Rathbun made Feb 20 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-02-20T22:26:50-05:00

I am still quite proud of mine (no V). I paid the full retail price back then. If it has been devalued since then, I care not.

I know what it means.

Response by SGT Rik Thibodeau made Feb 21 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-02-21T08:10:27-05:00

This isn't a new thing, the liberal awarding of the Bronze Star. There was a bit of a mini-scandal back in 1999 or when the Stars and Stripes reported that the Air Force awarded several Bronze Star medals to its members who were involved in the bombing of Serbia; it came out that they even awarded some to the refuelers at Whiteman AFB. That's right, service members who worked on an Air Force base in Missouri received Bronze Star medals for the Kosovo campaign (Not a single member of the Army or Marines received a BS for the Kosovo campaign). In the ensuing debate that followed the report, one of the justifications that some people gave was that it was no different than during Vietnam, several people who worked in the Philippines refueling planes also received the BS.

So it didn't start with OIF or OEF, it's been going on as long as the BS has been given. Your uncle feel nothing but pride, his award is not cheapened in any way, shape or form.

EDIT: Here's a link to the original story I mentioned, some good info on the BSM on here:

http://www.stripes.com/news/scores-of-medal-winners-never-entered-combat-zone-1.42255

Scores of medal winners never entered combat zone

This time last year, an Air Force lieutenant colonel was leading a team of mechanics and maintenance crews at Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo., making sure the B-2 bomber was a regular player in the air campaign against Yugoslavia some 5,000 miles away. For his efforts, he is among the nearly 200 Air Force members to receive the nation’s fourth-highest combat award, the Bronze Star.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Feb 21 at 2015 7:38 PM

2015-02-21T19:38:59-05:00

Your uncle should be very proud of his Bronze Star with "V" device. He earned it and very few soldiers receive the "V". I am a Vietnam Veteran also and I know during that time that award was precious. I thank you and your uncle for your service to this country.

Response by SPC Charles Griffith made Feb 21 at 2015 11:10 PM

2015-02-21T23:10:31-05:00

MSgt Jim Pollock Please tell your Uncle This Veteran Thanks him for his service. More over remind him that the Family of the serviceman he rescued that day are eternally grateful for his act of Valor. I'll send up an extra prayer for him tonight. And you keep on keeping on MSgt your doing a fine job in my book :)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2015 11:46 PM

2015-02-21T23:46:29-05:00

I think this is one of those times when we look back with lenses that suit our argument or emotional feeling. When you look at the number we actually see that the scrutiny or freeness of awarding the BSM is less not and especially when discussing the BSM-V. Vietnam saw a total of 975,081 BSMs awarded for service and 170,650 awarded for Valor. Iraq and Afghanistan combined had 165,011 BSMs awarded for service and 4,495 awarded for Valor. Obviously very drastic difference and much less. Just in case you are thinking that maybe it's just that more Soldiers were in Vietnam or we were there longer etc. Vietnam saw 2,594,000 troops went to Vietnam and actually served there on the ground, so not counting folks out at sea. Iraq and Afghanistan just through 2011 had a total 1.5 million Soldiers alone. That's not even counting other service or the years since 2011. It is always to say that when I got my CAB or BSM it was tougher then today etc. That may be true on a case by case basis but overall the number do not even come close to bearing that out.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 22 at 2015 12:58 AM

2015-02-22T00:58:18-05:00

As I have said previously, the BSM and many other awards are laden with issues and disgruntledness.... The BSM is in fact a the MSM when in combat/deployed. From the time the V was added, it is simply another award.... The MSM for combat. I have 3 and I am proud of each.

But, I remember my 1st PSG, as an Armor PL... He served with the 11 ACR in Vietnam and he said was shot at daily (had 113s shot out from under him), and when left, he got a warm hand shake... Then he went back, and was with the Big Red One, and never saw the enemy... and when he DEROSd.... he got a CIB and a BSM... That was the 1 ID outprocessing way... Not a new issue.

Response by CPT Sarah Persinger made Feb 25 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-02-25T15:40:12-05:00

The "V" device is still given to very few. All awards are something to be proud of if you know that you have earned them!

Response by LTC Donald (Don) Bachler made Feb 26 at 2015 7:14 PM

2015-02-26T19:14:04-05:00

Bronze Star and the Broze Star with the "V" device are completely different awards.

Don't look for satisfaction in the awards system... you will never find it. It completely changes depending on the conflict, what branch of service you are in, your chain of command, and unfortunately what rank you have on your collar.

Accept the awards you receive, and try not to get upset about the ones you should have received. We wore the uniform and served. That should be enough.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 7:27 PM

2015-02-26T19:27:02-05:00

It should be viewed the same. Both era's had 2 criteria, valor and meritorious service.
A modern factor is when they have authorized the substitution of the MSM. This alternative makes sense outside the boundaries of Iraq and Afghanistan. It created a defacto quota for who got which decoration for meritorious service.

Response by SMSgt James Williams made Mar 5 at 2015 10:08 PM

2015-03-05T22:08:54-05:00

It has become watered down, in my eyes. Commanders get them for just being in command of units in deployed locations, others get them for just doing their jobs.
I look at it this way...I take each one by the person behind it and the actions they performed. But that's just me.

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made Mar 6 at 2015 3:45 PM

2015-03-06T15:45:25-05:00

Re-read the citation again.

Response by CMSgt Mike Esser made Jun 6 at 2015 6:01 PM

2015-06-06T18:01:26-04:00

A Bronze Star without the "V" is an MSM......All "V" awards , in my opinion trump a BS without the "V"

Response by MAJ R. Andrew Hoskinson made May 30 at 2016 7:06 PM

2016-05-30T19:06:50-04:00

My father was a helicopter company commander in the First Cav Division in 70-71. He told me the entire roster was put in for a BSM, minus soldiers who had received Article 15s or courts-martial. So I don't buy the premise that BSMs were hard to come by in Vietnam.

Response by SPC Daniel Grimm made Jan 7 at 2018 11:23 AM

2018-01-07T11:23:47-05:00

I was in pleilu during tet and Dakto for the battle of Dakto I have 4 bronze stars 67-68

Response by MSG John Hundahl made Feb 3 at 2018 9:56 PM

2018-02-03T21:56:41-05:00

The Meritorious award of the Bronze Star was given throughout the Vietnam war. SSG and above and all commissioned officers received one. At least in my unit.

Response by 1SG Terry Folsom made Mar 4 at 2018 6:37 AM

2018-03-04T06:37:57-05:00

While the Bronze Star can be given for merit, I really can not see why, with the introduction of the various Meritorious Service Medals, that wasn't changed. I wear my MSM w clusters with pride. Thank you and thank your uncle for your service. He should be proud.

Response by SFC James Welch made May 10 at 2018 7:00 PM

2018-05-10T19:00:04-04:00

When I came back from Vietnam I attended Intelligence School at Fort Huachuca, Arizona The went to Germany. I wore Civilian Clothes in my assignment and didn’t wear my uniform until I rotated to the States to Fort Carson, Colorado. After I was there a week we had an event that required the Dress Uniform. Of course, I put everything on it I was authorized. I noticed people looking at me with a frown on their face, mostly Officers. In the coming days I experienced a resentment that was palatable. I finally asked a person I had come to know if he knew what was going on. He grinned and said, none of these people have been in Combat, they resent the fact that you have and have Awards they will never get. From that day on I wore only my Jump Wings and Aircraft Crewmans Badge. I volunteered to go back to Europe and spent the rest of my career there. Awards are not the sum total of anyone. The possession of, or lack thereof reveal nothing of the individual who should be judged solely on their knowledge and Leadership Ability, in my opinion!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2018 8:28 AM

2018-06-21T08:28:52-04:00

The bottom line is that you can interpret any award however you like. I’ve seen a well placed female Captain get a Comabt action badge for being on a FOB that had 1 shell of indirect fire about a quarter mile from her position with no injuries and personally seen a group taking sniper fire and not qualify for it. It’s based on criteria, who advocates for you, and politically correct rules enforced to make sure all potentially marginalized people are recognized. Sometimes the military is just making a point in specially recognizing someone. I don’t interpret it I just recognize that sometimes that SPC AAM means more than that MAJ Bronze star. It is the way it is.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Dec 30 at 2018 9:29 AM

2018-12-30T09:29:45-05:00

Earning Bronze Stars for meritorious service in theater for simply being there is a misstatement as it depended on the degree of service performed in a combat zone. Between an ARCOM and a LOM.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Dec 30 at 2018 10:15 AM

2018-12-30T10:15:34-05:00

All of the wars throughout modern history have had different standards for the issuance of awards, awards have also changed over time. Your Uncle received his with a V and should be honored. That is not to say that one without a V should not be honored. Those of us who believe that because of a certain grade or position ones medals mean less. Each person who has medals in their personal records knows the value, it is for no man to judge other than that of the face value. I know of Soldiers that refused medals in combat as they had their own thoughts regarding said award. None-the -less, for one service member to denigrate another based on assumptions is not appropriate. Sorry to take away from the primary question, again your Uncle is to be honored. Thank you both for your service.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Sep 5 at 2019 7:59 PM

2019-09-05T19:59:43-04:00

He should be proud of his BSV. It was awarded in a war that wasn't handed out for attandance.

Response by CPT William Jones made Mar 6 at 2020 3:12 PM

2020-03-06T15:12:52-05:00

The Bronze Star With V devices the third highest award for Valor in the RVN era. Yes there were lots awarded for service but they are a lesser award and I have one of those. But one with the V is a Ginuwine Hero badge. Not many of them awarded.

Response by 1SG Russell S. made Oct 29 at 2023 7:52 PM

2023-10-29T19:52:57-04:00

Good grief