How will the Army transition with transgender in open showers?

2023-06-05T00:32:54-04:00

I was doing field rotation that had open showers and had a thought about Transgender personell and how the be treated by other personell. I talked to a female an she said she upset if transwomen in her shower if they still had there male genitals. I asked a male the same thing and he said he wouldn't care. He said "If they identify as a man I will treat them like a man". How would you personally feel about this.

ADMIN NOTE: Be respectful to other RP members who may be in the transgender community.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2023 6:14 AM

2023-06-05T06:14:45-04:00

As discussed in our S1 one weekend back in 2018 when I was with the old 1st BDE, Pacific Division 75th Training Command The big problem is that those small group of soldiers Sailors and Airmen who join the military just to get their transgender surgery means that they will be non-mission capable for at least 2 years. We discussed this in our Brigade back in 2018. I foresee that females who complain to their superiors about transgender men will be disciplined and somebody be kicked out of the army when they have a bona fide reason to complain. This will only go away once this regime is voted out of office. People purposely joining the military to have transgender surgeries is not going to help retention. Those military personnel who are stuck in limbo getting their surgeries and not being able to deploy for 2 years will put a real strain on the system not to mention taxpayer dollars because they join the military to change General markers but not to serve our country.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 5 at 2023 6:33 AM

2023-06-05T06:33:37-04:00

One, I do not understand paying for the surgery’s. The government does not pay for breast augmentation of women?, do they? What about make enhancement, and other.

As for the showers it is not a good thing and I am glad I don’t have to deal with it. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in individual rights, however, anything this complicated does not belong in the military.

It is an unfair ask to have to place one’s self in a situations that will be tenuous, making the other person uncomfortable in their own skin.

I don’t have an answer and this is deeper than any other situation that comes from the LGBTQ community.

The military has always had additional requirments of their Service Members which contributes to good order and discipline. Let’s just say that four men out of a 9 man section request transition therapy and surgery, they all get approved and are on the books but that section, squad, platoonCokpany etc are in a deficit and non deployable for the duration. Anyway it is too difficult, it should not be something that we force on the junior leaders in out services to deal with.

I ramble as I do believe it is the right of each individual to be who they wish, but I do not see how it fits in the military.

Response by CSM William Everroad made Jun 5 at 2023 8:40 AM

2023-06-05T08:40:49-04:00

Every now and then we all have this conversation. I imagine it started when black people were integrated into the military, then women, then homosexuals, then women in combat units and now transgender.

A couple points: 1. all Soldiers are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect. Regardless of whatever excuse we have to dislike certain aspects. They volunteered to serve. We should let them. There has been no evidence of a depreciation of readiness in any integrated units (regardless of the characterization of integration: race, gender, age, etc)

2. Soldiers must accept living and working conditions that are often austere, primitive, and characterized by little or no privacy. We went from open stall bathrooms and showers in all billets to private rooms, but the expectation of privacy is a "nice to have" not a requirement. If female Soldiers are examining the "equipment" of fellow Soldiers, perhaps they should mind their own, do what they need to do and get out of the shower. The same goes for males. A lot of civilians would be uncomfortable showering in an open bay, but we do not change anything for them. Some places even have mixed gender bathrooms with individual stalls and showers.

3. Most integration efforts suffer from ignorance and preconceived notions and bias. Soldiers diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria do not get to change their gender marker until they are medically cleared. Until then, they are treated as the gender marker they enlisted with. The Real Life Experience (RLE) phase begins only during off-duty hours. Most Soldiers are not even aware someone is diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria and some don't even pursue transition because it is not medically necessary. The ones I have met wait to change their gender marker until they PCS as part of their RLE transition to full time.

4. Civilians with a history of gender dysphoria are accessed the same way as anyone else with a medical condition that impact military service. High impacts will always require a waiver. The Army was already providing medically necessary care for other preexisting behavioral health conditions (counseling, medication, etc).

This is a small unit issue that will depend on the professionalism of the Soldiers assigned around them. If everyone is a grown up, there are no problems. If someone does not like it, they can sit down with their 1SG/CDR who will tell them the same thing.

Females in the Army have more to fear from male Soldiers than from female transgender Soldiers. Female Soldiers are more likely to be sexually assaulted by a male Soldier than being injured by the enemy. We have bigger fish to fry than what someone is rocking between their legs in the shower. If they are performing to expectations, then we treat them with dignity and respect and move out.

Response by COL Randall C. made Jun 5 at 2023 9:39 AM

2023-06-05T09:39:37-04:00

From a commander's point of view, it is as simple as it is difficult. The overriding guidance of "which gender do I treat them as" is simple - whatever is reported in DEERS is how they are treated. If they are male in DEERS, they will use male showers and likewise if they are annotated as female.

Understand, that the Army's policy is not that a transitioning individual has 'more rights' than other Soldiers or that they have 'less rights'. Implementation of guidance will be accomplished by the commander balancing the rights of all with a focus on the impact to the mission.

AD 2021-22* gives general guidance to the commander in modifying local policies - "Commanders have discretion to employ reasonable accommodations to respect the modesty or privacy interests of Soldiers, including discretion to alter billeting assignments or adjust local policies on the use of bathroom and shower facilities in accordance with Army policy, in the interest of maintaining morale, good order, and discipline and consistent with performance of the mission."

As CSM William Everroad stated, you can't have separate "transgender-only" facilities, however you CAN have designated times for the use of those facilities as LTC Kevin B. mentioned.

The overriding guidance for a commander can be summed up simply as, "no special (as in 'increased rights') treatment for any Soldier because of the presence of a transitioning Soldier". A transgender Soldier is treated as they are identified in DEERS. A commander can alter billeting arrangements/assignments, adjust hours of operation of showers, adjust privacy options in bathrooms, etc. However, they will use whatever else is used by those with the same DEERS gender marker and there won't be separate "transgender-only" facilities.

Specific to your question SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member - If a transitioning Soldier was identified in DEERS as a female, then they use the female facilities regardless if they have gone through gender transition surgery or not.

If it was my situation to address, I would have a privacy area within the female changing area and establish a reasonable shower schedule that wouldn't advantage or disadvantage all (trans and non-trans) female Soldiers (for instance, having one schedule that occurred during dining hours would disadvantage whichever group was in that slot). After that you monitor the arrangement and adjust as necessary (just as with any policy change - you have to ensure there are no unanticipated impacts of that change).
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* AD 2021-22 - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32878-ARMY_DIR_2021-22-000-WEB-1.pdf

ARN32878-ARMY_DIR_2021-22-000-WEB-1.pdf

Response by COL Randall C. made Jun 5 at 2023 10:34 AM

2023-06-05T10:34:01-04:00

I've seen comments regarding a transitioning Soldier and thought I'd lay out the Active Duty process (there is a different process for reserve component, IRR, and ING Soldiers). BTW - I'm rendering no opinion in support for or against the process - just laying out what it is.

As I mentioned elsewhere, until the gender marker in DEERS is changed, Soldiers will still be treated as whatever is reflected. Furthermore, the gender marker isn't something that is changed because a Soldier decides that they want it changed and go to the RAPIDS office and implement it. It takes a while for the process to happen.

First the Soldier has to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the medical provider has to indicate gender transition treatment is medically necessary (note, this does not automatically mean gender transition surgery), and then they develop a treatment plan.

After that, a brigade-level commander has to approve the timing of the transition (again, not necessarily 'surgery', but changing the DEERS identification and how they will be treated) weighing the treatment plan and the the Soldier's individual circumstances, impact to military readiness and the mission, as well as the morale, welfare, good order and discipline of the unit. This will very likely be done in concert with the Soldier's commander regarding personnel impacts, upcoming missions, etc.

Once a time-line is established, and assuming nothing changes it, after the Solder completes medical treatment and the provider notifies the commander that the Soldier has achieved stability in the self-identified gender along with a recommendation of when the change in DEERS should happen.

At that point the Soldier can request that the change actually happen along with all the documentation necessary (medical diagnosis & confirmation from provider, legal documentation, etc). The brigade level command will consult with the Service Central Coordination Cell (SCCC) at the ASA (M&RA) and has 30 days to review the packet to ensure it's complete. Assuming everything is in order, THEN the commander will approve the request, including a date when the PAR to change the gender can occur in IPPS-A.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jun 5 at 2023 11:43 AM

2023-06-05T11:43:25-04:00

How? There's your shower. Use it. That's pretty much it.

COL Randall C. and CSM William Everroad already covered the top down nuts and bolts far better than I ever could. But from a unit-level leadership perspective, it is very simple IMHO.

You use your shower assigned to your gender marker. If you are a female with full tackle and you start doing a helicopter dance, then other females have every right to file a complaint for sexual harassment. If you are a female with full tackle and other females start staring, commenting, or (please, gods, no!) touching, you have every right to file for sexual harassment (or assault). Just the same as if you are a female with NO bits n bobs and start gyrating for the ladies or are ogled/commented/touched by the other ladies.

Same goes true in the men's showers.

The fact of the matter is that we already have rules for sexual harassment and sexual assault. If anyone - cis or trans - is doing things they shouldn't do or saying things they shouldn't say, then we have avenues to address that.

I see nothing wrong with carving out time for transitioning Soldiers, but I also do not see it as a requirement.

Professional Soldiers are PROFESSIONAL. Even in the shower.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Jun 5 at 2023 12:10 PM

2023-06-05T12:10:23-04:00

Not meant disrespectfully; but a male is a male, and a female is a female. I won't go into my view on transgender people in the service - it's above my paygrade; but policy will dictate what showers they use ... probably. That said, transgenders with their natural genitalia, should be restricted to their chosen sexual identity - that is, restricted to specific times where they won't be exposed to a person's natural sex. I would not expect a female to simply accept a transexual with male organs in her shower, or sleeping quarters, or visaversa.

Response by Amn Dale Preisach made Jun 5 at 2023 12:25 PM

2023-06-05T12:25:22-04:00

Communal Showers happen in some Colleges. CoEd showers in the military?? Depends on the persons affected. Post to post varying handling of the situation, as well as Command Suggestions on such.
If you went into the Service thinking you'll be catered to,... you might be an idiot.

Response by PO3 Shayne Seibert made Jun 5 at 2023 1:04 PM

2023-06-05T13:04:50-04:00

My quick take is that this shouldn't be happening at all in the military. Integration has come a long way in the last 75 years, and while the military WAS a massive social experiment with racial issues this one is beyond the pale.
Gender Dysphoria has been labeled a mental disorder for decades, so that alone should disqualify the soldier from serving in the first place.
Transitioning surgeries is an elective procedure. I'm not against it in general, but if you want it you pay for it.
Showers... Until you have the surgery (which again, the dysphoria should have kept you out), you shower with those who have the same parts as you were born with.

Response by Amn Dale Preisach made Jun 5 at 2023 1:35 PM

2023-06-05T13:35:11-04:00

Could the Transgender person end up filing a Lawsuit POST-Surgery and blame Military Psychiatric/ Surgical Staff and Command for " Buyer's Remorse " type of situation????

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Jun 5 at 2023 2:27 PM

2023-06-05T14:27:29-04:00

This is simple-install a shower curtain.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2023 3:50 PM

2023-06-05T15:50:44-04:00

The very few times I've had to use open showers in the Army I wasn't looking at anyone else in there. Even in high school I never showered in the locker room unless it was an away game. At home games I just showered at home after. I also frequently change in a stall when I can because I still have ingrained some body image issues. I'd bet any trans person who hasn't had reassignment surgery is going to avoid using the open shower. Or try to go when no one else is there.

I honestly wouldn't even care if showers were just gender neutral. If you're in the Army and you can't control yourself to not rape, SA or indecently expose yourself then you probably shouldn't be in the Army or around people. I could also just as easily be harassed by another cisgender woman in the shower then a trans woman.

As long as someone doesn't harass me or others and isn't indecently exposing themselves idgaf who is in a bathroom or shower.

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Jun 5 at 2023 4:50 PM

2023-06-05T16:50:56-04:00

Good afternoon SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member. Excellent post. Thanks for sharing this Brother James. This can become an issue if a separate bathroom isn't established.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2023 11:26 PM

2023-06-05T23:26:12-04:00

Unless things have changed field showers were frigging cold and no one stood around looking at anyone. You were lucky to have 3 minutes to shower. It boiled down to this: Get in there. Get wet. Then get out of my shower.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2023 7:41 AM

2023-06-06T07:41:21-04:00

The military has a very military solution. My summary:
1. Everyone is the gender that's in their Deers record and there are only 2 choices.
2. Treat everyone with respect.

My assumption is in situations like this a little coordination from leadership would go a long way. Having a trans troop is probably reason enough to get at least individual showers with curtains.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2023 9:54 PM

2023-06-08T21:54:44-04:00

I don't know, but the very first month I took company command a soldier in my unit came into my office and said, hello, I'm pre transition..............

The very next month we had a field exercise and the Battalion CO (the property book owner of the showers) was going to park herself in front of the showers to prevent everyone and anyone from going in there while the transgender soldier was in the shower. I'm sure COL's and GEN's would heed the LTC's career advice and just let the situation happen and move forward with the exercise. I agree, this is not a long term answer. This was the tip of the spear dealing with this new atmosphere.

DEERs is the final authority as far as I'm aware, and the soldier was originally female transitioning into male.

In this situation showers times would have been blocked off to get around the regs and a LTC was going to be the gate keeper to enforce actions that ensured a drama free career moving forward.

Realistically speaking the USAR officers (to include myself as the soldier in question company commander) attached to the potential CNN/MSNBC/FOX headline were just trying to get through the end of the day.

End result was Trump became president the solder hit ETS, and didn't reenlist, and was out before the field exercise. So everyone dodged a potential bullet.

The soldier, originally being female, and already having trouble passing the APFT as female with hormonal assistance wasn't looking to be in a good position when DEER's changed the gender to male when it came to the ACFT.

************
Finally, we all know how long it takes ETS orders to be cut when USAR soldiers want out at the end of their contracts.

Welp.................. On a Monday, I submitted three ETS packets from my company command, and to include the transgender soldier in question. Orders were published and in my mil mail account the following Tuesday for the separation for all three of those packets.

The transgender soldier was in no way treated differently than any other soldier. However, all ETS packets were signed, approved and published lickity split that specific day.

The USAR is a very low bar performance wise, and we did lose a soldier that kept green across the board, showed up at the right time in the right uniform, and was always dependable to execute tasks that needed to be executed. They had numerous vehicles on their military driver's license so unit readiness and capability technically went down when they decided not to re-enlist.

Response by SP5 Christopher Brock made Jun 12 at 2023 1:34 AM

2023-06-12T01:34:06-04:00

Maybe America should Adopt a European point of view stop viewing everything sexually and when you see a woman man naked don’t sexualize it, which means a lot of people have to GROW UP, and when it comes to mission readiness you make that individual who wants to transition meet certain requirements and that requirement means they have to do the Gender PT Standards, height weight standards and along with that they have a contract with a certain amount of years they need to be on Active Duty

Response by SGT John Prolo made Jun 12 at 2023 11:20 AM

2023-06-12T11:20:06-04:00

I find this entire discussion absurd. The number one concern is Mental Illness being allowed to infiltrate our military. It is appalling and non conducive to a fighting force. And, everyone knows why these people are joining. Tax payer funded transitions. I’m assuming that there are a small number within the military, and in my opinion that’s too many. I’m sure there are many other ways they can contribute to their country.

Response by PO1 Robert Ryan made Jun 12 at 2023 12:27 PM

2023-06-12T12:27:52-04:00

Sorry I can't be objective on this matter. Guess i am a dinosaur.

Response by SGT Erick Holmes made Jun 15 at 2023 4:35 PM

2023-06-15T16:35:27-04:00

I would assume that all branches would have a seperate shower or certain times that transgender Soldiers would utilize the showers. I mean who knows. Its tough

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Jun 16 at 2023 2:39 PM

2023-06-16T14:39:45-04:00

A women becoming a man in mens shower okay, but male in womens shower I don't think it will work well. I really don't believe the men would complain but may cause lots of problems.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2023 12:44 PM

2023-06-23T12:44:18-04:00

Are the branches of the U.S. military now "accepting" transgendered soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines? What about those who are transitioning? At what point are these transgendered?

Response by 1SG Rick Seekman made Jun 25 at 2023 5:05 PM

2023-06-25T17:05:31-04:00

First and foremost, I would get those "individuals" into mental health counseling to help with their mental shortcomings..

Response by SPC Jesse Roth made Jun 27 at 2023 8:00 PM

2023-06-27T20:00:39-04:00

In china they are training to defeat our Infantry and Cav on the field. They don't have to ask whether or not their troops are male or female.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jun 28 at 2023 11:54 PM

2023-06-28T23:54:30-04:00

Let's be honest here, if the majority of transitions were female to male and transmales with female anatomy were using male showers fewer people would care. The trigger point here is transfemales with male anatomy showering with our daughters and wives is what causes the biggest issues.

Response by Sgt Matthew Ota made Jun 29 at 2023 9:18 AM

2023-06-29T09:18:43-04:00

I think all of military installations should do away with communal or open showers. That would solve any issues.

Response by TSgt Daniel Wareham made Jun 30 at 2023 7:02 AM

2023-06-30T07:02:50-04:00

Perhaps I am too "Old School" but IMHO, any person who is diagnosed with this mental illness should be medically discharged as unfit to serve as an active duty/Guard/Reservist. Just as a person who is overwieght, under performing, not able to achieve physical fitness, etc, is discharged, this is no different.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2023 7:44 AM

2023-06-30T07:44:53-04:00

Well, Field Showers have limited water. Missions still have to get done. Rotational times with a set time limit could be one solution. But, no matter the solution, there is no fix currently that will satisfy everyone. There's always going to be one person that's unhappy. I'd just be happy to get a shower, especially if I've been without one for 30+ days.

Response by MSG Tony Hughes made Jul 1 at 2023 8:10 PM

2023-07-01T20:10:26-04:00

Get Trump back in office and end this crap. I retired before all this crap came into play. I think it will bring down morale, unit cohesion within the ranks. Were changing too much from base names because some asshats thought they were too offensive. Glad i am retired, i would not adapt to today's military

Response by PO1 Frank Downs made Jul 2 at 2023 1:00 PM

2023-07-02T13:00:49-04:00

It’s a shame this is even a conversation for the Military.
The Military is under attack as the last bastion of tradition and standards, instead of asking how the Army will transition the question should be WHY is the Army accepting Transgender, what benefits does a transgender person bring to a combat unit if that person is under constant treatment and still have a higher then normal suicidal rate.
After 40 years of women being assigned to combat units the jury is still out as to their cost benefit (still no 100% all female units or ships).
I would normally use a phrase; Your right to be you includes my right to be free from you, but in the Military that right to be free from you doesn’t exist and you and this social movement are risking members of your unit lives as you allow others to push a agenda.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jul 3 at 2023 7:16 PM

2023-07-03T19:16:47-04:00

Imagine, if you will, that ALL SHOWERS are open. and ALL PERSONNEL REGARDLESS OF GENDER use them at any and all times. Male and female members are in "the full Monty" (as it were), for as long as it takes for each member to accomplish their bodily washing tasks. It is not sexual; it is simply the necessary configuration for that kind of hygiene.

That is how it is, even today, with openly gay personnel in the military. I am not expressing criticism; I am simply stating the facts. The sexual tension that would exist with traditional mixed-gender (M/F) showering exists TODAY with openly gay personnel in open showers with personnel who are not gay.

If this gets your attention, then note that trans-genderism will sharply accelerate this.

BTW: If you would like to see a taste of this, go see the movie "Starship Troopers." (Also, BTW, I am in it: Third blur from the top, "Football" scene). (Another BTW: I am NOT recommending that movie.)

Response by SPC Paul Gooch made Jul 5 at 2023 9:40 AM

2023-07-05T09:40:01-04:00

I think they should all be separated in bathrooms and held equally accountable during work/battle hours. We can all act like Klinger during times we are not working

Response by SSgt Ryan Pittenger made Jul 5 at 2023 1:22 PM

2023-07-05T13:22:56-04:00

Just give the TRs their own shower room. problem solved. Women should not be in a position like this in the first place.

Response by SPC Will Thorson made Jul 14 at 2023 8:04 PM

2023-07-14T20:04:59-04:00

Just to throw has on the fire. Trans soldiers have been in the army for a while. They fought in Afghanistan and Iraq. You couldn't tell if one was transgender or not. Right wing boogeyman at work again.

Response by Amn Dale Preisach made Jul 21 at 2023 6:42 PM

2023-07-21T18:42:45-04:00

Will a serviceperson choose to go trans to keep from being other than Honorable/ Dishonorable discharged?? They could say the attempt at discharge is because they came out as being trans.

Response by MSG Steve Collier made Aug 1 at 2023 1:22 PM

2023-08-01T13:22:47-04:00

This comment will cause some heartache... people espousing transgender ideology should not be in the military. The separation of soldiers into their respective transgender beliefs is a barrier to unit cohesion. The accommodation of respective medical processes to maintain transgender choices makes medical care less available to non-trans warfighters. The associated psychological problems. requires, again, command attention that will be diverted from warfighters. People desiring a transgender lifestyle as civilians isn't a problem. The U. S. military should not be a large, captive social experiment pool.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2023 12:21 PM

2023-08-04T12:21:56-04:00

The Army will transition by lowering the standards. The Canadian military, for example, allows you to have tattoos on your face, unusual colored hair, and you can even cross dress. All trying to cater because nobody wants to join the military. Commanders do still have the option of raising the standards but I wouldn't be surprised that the US military will end up being like William Shatner's weird or what? The US military is supposed to focus on duty, honor, and Country and not on trying to be a trendy and Catering to one half of 1% of the population. Look how the US Military has stupid Madison Avenue types trying to push recruiting and the recruiting is going into the toilet because they don't want to know about a lesbian Army soldier with two lesbian mothers. They don't want to know about a Navy drag queen RuPaul who looks normal on duty but then dresses up like a female off duty so why would they have someone dress up and drag to try to recruit new recruits? It's kind of like taking two steps forward and 200 steps back trying to cater to a small segment of the population instead of trying to focus on the majority of the straight, middle of the road young person without trying to attract weirdos that look more like Marilyn Manson or rupaul?

https://legionmagazine.com/en/canadian-military-breaks-with-tradition-changes-dress-codes/#:~:text=Anxious%20to%20attract%20increasingly%20reticent,you%20prefer%20it%20that%20way.

Just a moment...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2023 9:52 AM

2023-08-08T09:52:42-04:00

I remember hearing a story many, MANY years ago, when men were men and women were women. It went like this: If a women, by mistake, inadvertently, walked into a shower filled with men, she'd be embarrassed. If a man inadvertently walked into a shower filled with women, he'd be excited.

Response by SSgt Don Porter made Aug 8 at 2023 4:30 PM

2023-08-08T16:30:53-04:00

Oh my! Transconfusion
Males to the male shower and females to the female shower. Super simple
Give no attention to their delusion.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Aug 8 at 2023 5:20 PM

2023-08-08T17:20:11-04:00

Blindfolds! What you can't see can't offend you. In many areas around the world, they have unisex bathrooms. I have delt with trans-men and many, many times I had forgotten they were physically female. Also watch Starship Troopers a few times. the key is focus on who they are and not what they are. Sure, it may feel awkward to you, however if you are professional and mature it will not matter. Do you have a female Doctor? Do you every time she makes you turn you head cough, pop a woody, or checks your prostrate? I have a female doctor and my answer to my question is no. Why because we are professional, she is doing her job and I am checking on my health, just as if you're taken a shower you go in you shower dry off get dressed and go. What else are you going to do in an open shower? Be professional and mature

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2023 7:13 PM

2023-08-08T19:13:01-04:00

Amn Dale Preisach
Posted 18 d ago
Will a serviceperson choose to go trans to keep from being other than Honorable/ Dishonorable discharged?? They could say the attempt at discharge is because they came out as being trans.

Why would that stop them from being discharged? What were they being discharged for to start with?

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Aug 8 at 2023 9:52 PM

2023-08-08T21:52:08-04:00

I would prefer that the Army not allow transgender in the service, but that is my opinion. But since they do- I think they should go to private latrines such as at home, a single person with a lock on the door. If not then they need to just remove the signs and let everything go free. Maybe label the latrines, Penis, or Vagina, and if you have that body part you use that latrine.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2023 3:19 PM

2023-08-09T15:19:49-04:00

I see this as just one more technique to confuse and demoralize all service members.

Response by SGT Earl Curtis made Aug 9 at 2023 5:14 PM

2023-08-09T17:14:17-04:00

If still serving, though I might disagree with the policy, I would respect all. My Christian beliefs challenges me to be kind. I do sympathize with women who might have to shower with biological males. Already, in civilian schools, there has been rapes and we are talking in grades 12 and under. Women deserve respect, privacy, and safety. In my humble opinion.

Response by TSgt Timothy Collins made Aug 11 at 2023 4:11 PM

2023-08-11T16:11:47-04:00

Just wash your butt, don't stare at the other person's junk no matter what form it takes, be respectful and exit. As Ling as the troop is next to you watching your 6, that's all you need to know

Response by Cpl Franz Buhlmann made Aug 11 at 2023 11:36 PM

2023-08-11T23:36:05-04:00

If our Armed Forces accept Transgender, they should also accept TransRank!
I sell identify as the Supreme Ruler over all The United States! I wonder how senior NCOs and Officers would respond to that idea!

It's shocking as the United State ages, it loses its ability to reason!

Response by TSgt D Newman made Aug 13 at 2023 10:04 AM

2023-08-13T10:04:25-04:00

So a complete set -up question. Stop making our military your "SOCIAL EXPERIMENT" Liberals Suck!

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Aug 15 at 2023 4:45 PM

2023-08-15T16:45:40-04:00

I would skip showering and just take a canteen bath or something. Even though the Army just about lost its mind, most soldiers are going to know better and try to avoid seeing what they shouldn't be there.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2023 7:21 PM

2023-08-23T19:21:52-04:00

Women in men's showers, men's barracks.... is a sure recipe for rape.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 24 at 2023 12:34 PM

2023-08-24T12:34:38-04:00

I am retired now, but in my youth, I always advocated to those who supported gay rights in military that new billets would have to be built that allow Straight male and female and Gay and lesbian. That is what I said as it had to do with the mindset of the 1980's and 90's. Well, those building never got built so it shows what I knew. This issue becomes even harder and gets down to some core & religious beliefs of people on both sides. I am not sure there is an easy answer, and I don't envy the commanders who develop these policies.

Response by SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D made Aug 24 at 2023 1:12 PM

2023-08-24T13:12:09-04:00

Born a male, shower with the males, born a female, shower with the females. Why is this so confusing to some, or are you lacking the intelligence to know the difference, which I doubt, and stay the hell out of each others sports!

Response by PO3 Steven Schonberg made Aug 25 at 2023 1:31 PM

2023-08-25T13:31:17-04:00

I wouldn't worry about it too much. They will figure it out.

Response by SPC James Fitzpatrick made Sep 1 at 2023 3:26 PM

2023-09-01T15:26:04-04:00

First, there have always been homosexuals in the military.

Second, what the hell has the Army come to that something like this even needs to be discussed?

Response by PVT R O made Sep 8 at 2023 10:21 AM

2023-09-08T10:21:23-04:00

It is discouraging to see CSM’s and Colonels, who should be wise leaders by the time that they’ve been promoted to that rank, not be so. They may be happily embraced by the Godless of the world, those bound for destruction, but it won’t go so well when they stand before God who said that he “makes them male and female.” God does not make mistakes. He also condemns homosexuality but these same ppl push that behavior on society to no end, granting special privileges to those who will engage in it and much needed attention to those who don’t get the attention that they should or that they want. How clueless these men are not to recognize the constant brainwashing going on right now on the youth of the world to engage in these things. How slow these men are to learning. These men most likely have heard of Sodom and Gomorrah, but then blindly approve of the same behaviors, sexual impurity. These men are leaders of the blind, as wise men would see through them. These same men fail to see God’s lessons about those persons or peoples who He warns and warns to stop their depravity, which they don’t and ends in their destruction, or which they do and ends in blessings.

Response by SGT Chris Owens made Sep 18 at 2023 8:35 AM

2023-09-18T08:35:48-04:00

I was in iraq when they started letting gays in
we had a LT waiting to push the button to send a message on FB that she was a lesbian

I didnt like it then and couldnt wait to retire...all of this makes combat readiness , not ready...too many problems associated with this to make this ok

women in combat roles already make this a bad thing as I saw the first time I was in iraq...a guy flipped a humvee and killed the gunner ...a female ...while out on the road.....I can only guess the driver was at fault because he was messing with her while she was in the gunner seat which probably she kicked him in the head

women also have the monthly problem, if they are in a place where they cant clean while on their monthly , it could be a health issue later

I dont believe women or gays should be let in, same goes for transgenders....too many problems that could happen that dont need to happen if they arent let in...so glad I'm retired, cant stand what has happened to the military

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2023 9:22 AM

2023-09-18T09:22:13-04:00

Obsession with other people’s bodies, be they cis or trans has no place. If someone wears the uniform, they deserve respect and dignity without exception. Honestly this question made me recall the shower scene in the movie “Starship Troopers” where males, females and J would assume trans soldiers showered together and it just wasn’t an issue. I know that that was a Hollywood movie, but based on the experience of repealing DADT where almost none of the fears people had about gay and lesbian soldiers showering with straight soldiers came to pass, I believe this would be the same.

Nobody should care what kind of primary or secondary sex characteristics a soldier has, and hopefully someday all of this prudish restroom obsession will be as much of a non-issue as racially integrated units (and by extension restrooms and showers) are today.

Response by LCDR Ed Etzkorn made Sep 18 at 2023 4:28 PM

2023-09-18T16:28:29-04:00

What a shame we focus on transgenderism etc., instead of readiness to fight a war!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2023 5:30 PM

2023-09-18T17:30:19-04:00

Removed by author.

This was very poorly composed and not helpful to the discussion.

Response by SGT Jeff Everhart made Sep 19 at 2023 12:01 AM

2023-09-19T00:01:24-04:00

This is what equality looks like. Women wanted equality now they have it! The problem is that now women have reached parity with men in the military some men are wanting to be women just so they don't have to meet the higher standard. Do women who consider themselves men in the military have to do PT under their former gender, or do they have to meet the higher male standard? This same question applies to men who want to be women in the military. It's time to eliminate the requirement for young men to register for the draft, or start requiring women to register for the draft. The trans issue shouldn't be considered a civil rights issue, it should be treated like the mental disorder that it is.

Response by SPC Russell T. Andrews made Sep 19 at 2023 4:48 PM

2023-09-19T16:48:46-04:00

Not my military!

Response by PO1 Wayne Merritt made Sep 20 at 2023 8:55 AM

2023-09-20T08:55:31-04:00

stupid fucking shit

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2023 7:51 PM

2023-09-20T19:51:59-04:00

I think, no, I know they are mentally ill.

Response by SFC Dave Brewer made Sep 21 at 2023 8:05 PM

2023-09-21T20:05:03-04:00

It's funny just a few years ago it was a mental illness now some act and say not a big deal. I'm sorry combat arms will have so many issue, yes many like those here will say stuff to not take a position against. I'm sorry don't join unless you have made the change, you only hurt a units readiness.

Response by 1SG Mark Rodgers made Sep 22 at 2023 4:17 AM

2023-09-22T04:17:01-04:00

Not many ppl identify as what ever U say! I see no problem unless U are conflicted with gender in U're own mind. When I was in Afghanistan the first time there were separate times and U might not get any water. It was even worse when Infantry boys were back on camp. Might have gotten better after I left the first time in 2003. Ppl that want combat will maybe get what really happens if U hang around long enough!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2023 12:41 PM

2023-09-22T12:41:09-04:00

I remember back in 1966 when a homosexual was assigned to the G2 Section of 3rd Inf Div. HHC. He always showered in the wee hours when the showers were not in use. I do remember thinking about how that issue could be resolved and the only solution I could come up with was: No person should have to shower with someone who might find them of sexual interest." Which, basically, meant that everyone would need to be able to take "solo: showers. BTW, the homosexual did an outstanding job, easing the load on others in the Section with never any type of "offensive" behavior. He was very quick thinking...I remember one time when we were on maneuvers in a local German town and the fire dept. was called for some reason. The the call was resolved the firemen refused to leave with out getting our lead Officers serial number. He was no present and no one know the number. As the Germans were getting more angry, he, homosexual, said he had found the number and gave it to the Germans and they departed. When asked where he found the number, he replied: "It the Kissinger APO with a 1 in front."

i

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Sep 22 at 2023 7:05 PM

2023-09-22T19:05:09-04:00

You want to make it equal... make the barracks co-ed. That way they could ID as a lampshade and then it wouldn't make any difference.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2023 1:18 PM

2023-09-24T13:18:01-04:00

My hope is that it will not be to ignore the rights of female service members until one files a Tailhook-esque lawsuit to bring attention to the problem.

Response by SPC Terry Martin made Sep 25 at 2023 2:39 AM

2023-09-25T02:39:49-04:00

It's overdue for the Supreme Court to rule that there two biological sexes, male or female. Each should confine to their natual born sex, irrespective of what they relate as.

Response by SFC Kevin Barlow made Sep 25 at 2023 7:42 AM

2023-09-25T07:42:25-04:00

Males I feel will more accept females in the shower, however, I don't feel the women will be so respective.

Response by LTC David Howard made Sep 25 at 2023 8:48 AM

2023-09-25T08:48:00-04:00

Maybe I'm just too old fashioned, but I have a feeling most men would not be at all upset at "trans men" showering with them, meaning biological women who have the delusion that since they "feel" like a man that magically makes them into a man. In fact many might find that a very entertaining and stimulating experience. On the other hand, I doubt that too many women soldiers would be happy to openly shower with biological men who claim to be women. I will add that I think discussions like this would be improved if we stopped using the terms "trans" and "transitioned" and the like. Without totally re-defining what the words "man" and "women" mean, it is literally impossible to change one's gender, i.e., "transgender" so no transition can actually ever occur.

Response by SGT Robert Urbaniak made Sep 30 at 2023 4:24 PM

2023-09-30T16:24:02-04:00

As far as I'm concerned this bullshit has to stop.

Response by PO2 Gary Riedl made Oct 2 at 2023 11:44 AM

2023-10-02T11:44:37-04:00

In my opinion, transgender ideology has set back women's rights decades. "Identifying" is a very misused word to indicate they are unhappy with what and who they are.

Response by SGT Tony Hall made Oct 9 at 2023 12:46 PM

2023-10-09T12:46:51-04:00

Male is male, female is female. Joining just to get transgender surgery reminds me of a lot prior to Desert Storm, “I joined for the college education benefit. “ The military has one job, protect and defend the United States. Read your oath that you swore to uphold. Sounds like we have a lot of snowflakes and “Maxwell Klingers” in todays military. Any soldier whom is undeployable for 2 years needs to be a civilian.

Response by SGT James Hunsinger made Oct 23 at 2023 12:55 AM

2023-10-23T00:55:08-04:00

They don't belong in the military. I'm not talking about anything other than the fact that gender dysphoria is a mental illness. A mental illness I might add that leads many of them to suicidal ends and no, it isn't because they simply aren't accepted by others. Soldiers have enough to worry about without adding in forcing them to feed someone else's pipe-dream fantasy that they can become another gender by smearing on some make up, wearing a dress and changing their name from Bob to Roberta.

Almost half (48.3%) reported suicidal ideation, 23.8% had attempted suicide. This is not a statistic that should be being introduced into our fighting force simply because it would be a nice thing to do to meet woke, DEI requirements in a place that it shouldn't be a concern. War fighting is something that brings on its own set of psychological issues without already getting a head start on it before even getting to the starting line. I know many young men and women for that matter that would have loved to join the military but this sort of thing makes them rethink it and take other avenues instead of serving. Who in their right mind would want to go to war with someone from a demographic that lives their life in an ongoing fantasy that they demand others validate along with their potential suicidal or perhaps even homicidal tendencies? So the military will now make it mandatory for fellow service members to validate their fantasy and feed their mental illness? You will continue to miss recruitment quotas as well you should.

I've seen some advocates for this use the introduction of Black service members many decades ago as an example...False equivalency all together. The color of your skin is not a mental illness or a departure from reality in substitution of fantasy. Even homosexuals serving at least have a solid grasp of reality typically. It doesn't get more real than combat and the last thing you want is someone with a very tangible lack in their grasp of reality involved.

Just out of curiosity, can I come back in and identify as a commanding general and have the military bending over backwards to feed my fantasy? It has as much basis in reality as this load of bull. What's next? Are we going to allow someone who identifies as a horse to serve as a mount in the Old Guard perhaps? Maybe some soldiers on all fours and barking in the K-9 Corps? At what point does the line of ludicrous get drawn?

At some point, reality and pragmatism has to prevail or our military is doomed in infrastructure, recruiting and especially on the battlefield. God help this country because it has lost its way. We are the laughing stock of the world thanks to this insanity.

Response by SFC Richard Baerlocher made Oct 23 at 2023 5:36 PM

2023-10-23T17:36:00-04:00

In Viet Nam we had our hooch maids come into the shower room where we were taking showers, and they weren't bothered. Military are usually able to adjust to just about anything, or any condition. When we had to use the showers where we used the Laudry and bath showers, everyone had their showers by gender and pay grade, with the officers seperate. There hould be no difference for Transgender.

Response by CPO Janson Booth made Oct 24 at 2023 5:14 PM

2023-10-24T17:14:05-04:00

Retired Navy 2000, no way should they be showering together, disgusting!

Response by PO2 Jason Phillips made Oct 25 at 2023 2:31 PM

2023-10-25T14:31:32-04:00

This is a completely Fubar situation. So called "Trans people" not only dont belong in the showers. They are mentally ill and don't belong in the Military. Inclusion, Trans people, and women's weakens our readiness.

Response by PO1 David M Burns made Oct 25 at 2023 9:50 PM

2023-10-25T21:50:28-04:00

I would recommend that the army bring back a special hygene product that the Navy used in the sixties, that is soap on a rope!

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Oct 25 at 2023 9:59 PM

2023-10-25T21:59:50-04:00

I HOPE NOT LIKE IE. IN HIGHSCHOOL WHERE THESE BOYS/GIRLS CAN GO INTO GIRLS /WOMEN BATHROOM AND RAPE A WOMEN AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Nov 2 at 2023 1:39 AM

2023-11-02T01:39:15-04:00

The current administration and high command elements have decided to make the military one grand social experiment, so I imagine they will figure it out. I am so grateful I served when I did. I used to promote joining the military. Towards the end of my career, I volunteer coached high school baseball, and I had several of my players join. I ensured they dealt with honest recruiters, and went over the paperwork. NOW? If somebody asked me what I thought, I could not, with proper conviction encourage it. My nephew was the last one I had join, and he joined with every intention of making it a career. After he told me things that were going on, he did his tour and got out, and I wasn't about to even attempt to talk him into staying. So nope, the military lost a decent off the side recruiter. The military should teach how to destroy and effectively kill the enemy, destroy their targets, and toughen them up mentally and physically enough to endure the rigors of combat operations. Under the Biden administration, they have brought their divisiveness into the ranks of the military. Example, what are your pronouns? The only pronouns should be, Private, Private First Class, Specialist, Corporal, Sergeant, Seaman, Airman, Petty Officer, Gunny, Chief, etc. etc. Those are the ONLY PRONOUNS that should be used. Hockey Pucks to the garbage going on.

Response by SPC Edward Abney made Nov 6 at 2023 11:28 PM

2023-11-06T23:28:04-05:00

Man, I am so glad that my enlistment (62-65), was way before all the current complications that face the Services today. I hope it all works out.

Response by PO3 Anne Moyer made Nov 10 at 2023 9:23 PM

2023-11-10T21:23:36-05:00

If the person is anatomically on gender and wanting to pass as the other than I have a problem. There is still a problem with military sexual assault happening and now you want anatomical females to have to worry about protecting themselves in the head or berthing....no the services first have to be able to end one problem before they start a practice that could increase MST.

Response by PO3 David Keck made Dec 12 at 2023 5:36 PM

2023-12-12T17:36:35-05:00

If they identify as a bottle nose porpoise they should teach swimming.

Response by SPC Amanda Ramsey made Dec 14 at 2023 6:24 PM

2023-12-14T18:24:23-05:00

In the field it doesn’t matter what genitals you have! As a female, I’ve had to bunk with all-male platoons while out on mission in Iraq and I’ve seen my fair share of dicks. Everyone is a professional and has to do their job regardless!

Response by SGT Katherine Van Niman made Dec 15 at 2023 8:22 AM

2023-12-15T08:22:46-05:00

It is a mental illness as described by the APA. A woman can be all she can be as long as she is a man. They need to stay out of woman spaces and have their own showers or shower with the men.

Response by SGT John Baker made Dec 15 at 2023 1:25 PM

2023-12-15T13:25:16-05:00

I guess what bothers me more than this issue is the underlying cause of the whole thing. Someone once said that if you control education, you control the country. The liberal movement has taken over the entire educational system, every classroom, every lecture hall. If there is any educational value at all in television, they control that as well, even the commercials. Think about this, they even control our government. How many people have had their careers destroyed over "Political Correctness" in our military and our government agencies. It numbers well into the thousands. This is why we must concern ourselves with Transgenders in our showers.

Fyodor Dostoevsky, the Russian author, wrote in 1855 that if the liberals control the country, any country, that country will be destroyed. Russia fell to communism fifty or so years later.

Response by SPC Chris Parks made Dec 16 at 2023 5:34 PM

2023-12-16T17:34:48-05:00

I believe those who want to be or believe they are transgender *should not* serve in the United States military.

Response by AN Ron Wright made Dec 17 at 2023 5:27 PM

2023-12-17T17:27:04-05:00

i would NEVER be comfortable around them. This would make our detachment more of a security issue
nor would i TRUST them to watch my back
i don't care who you are or what your are. But do NOT expect me to succumb to any pronouns or your mental instability this is immoral and unnatural
there is only 2 GENDERS --- following the science !!!!!!!!!! and many more mental illness

Response by SGT David Schrader made Dec 17 at 2023 6:27 PM

2023-12-17T18:27:39-05:00

Best solution that I can think of if transgendered is allowed would be having three different facilities.
1. Men’s
2. Women’s
3. Others

Response by SSG Russell DeWade made Dec 19 at 2023 2:28 PM

2023-12-19T14:28:34-05:00

"feelings"....smh EVERYTHING is "how I feel"! ...stfu about hurt feelings. How are you going to feel when your fire team is short because a trans soldier has to dilate their fake vagina, or can't function because of a lack of testosterone...There is NO medical necessity for transitioning! Actually there is no such thing as transitioning. If you were born a male you remain a male.PERIOD! I REFUSE to participate in their mental illness!

Response by SFC Frederick Dalton made Dec 19 at 2023 10:27 PM

2023-12-19T22:27:33-05:00

Showering is a relatively minor issue. The really big issue is the non-deployability of transitioning service members. Not everyone HAS to deploy, but every service member must BE ABLE to deploy. If you cannot maintain deployability, for whatever reason, you are a liability to the service and someone else has to fill that gap.

Response by SPC Timothy Coleman made Dec 22 at 2023 7:00 AM

2023-12-22T07:00:24-05:00

If you are a mature adult, and in full control of yourself and are fully secure in your own sexuality, then you would not let something like nudity get in the way of acting appropriately and minding your your own business in the shower. Nudity does not equal an invitation for sex. It never has. Put your mind in the proper context, as all of your team needs to shower, like siblings, if that helps. And get used to seeing other peoples genitals. And stop fussing about it. Act like a responsible and respectful adult, and allow each other their own space. That means don't stare are each other. Do what the military does best, adapt and move on.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made Dec 22 at 2023 11:53 AM

2023-12-22T11:53:13-05:00

I imagine they'll transition the same way they did with racially integrated units, opening combat arms to women, opening Ranger School tp women, accepting openly gay soldiers serving. Pretty much a "There it is, that's how it is, now deal with it or hit the bricks". We should always return to the dictum that a soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Race don't matter, color don't matter, gender don't matter. You wear the uniform, you meet the standards, you're good to go. Don't meet the standards, or expect some kind of special treatment, then you're in the wrong line of work.

Response by CPT Ian Stewart made Dec 22 at 2023 12:46 PM

2023-12-22T12:46:57-05:00

Back in the day (1980s) my wife was stationed with an MI unit in Germany. Her battalion had male and female soldiers which required some creative arrangements when it came to the "facilities". The latrines became unisex with the urinals covered and everyone using the toilet stalls. The barracks had one shower room per floor so one floor was designated as female and the others as male.
I imagine units will do something similar or designate separate shower times for each group.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Dec 25 at 2023 9:08 PM

2023-12-25T21:08:18-05:00

I think that we're looking at a Supreme Court case in the not too distant future.

Response by SFC R. Lee Linebarger made Dec 31 at 2023 2:24 PM

2023-12-31T14:24:35-05:00

It's a mental issue that needs to be addressed outside the military.

The military is not a sounding board for this mental disease and ought not be forced to adjust policy due to political issues.

There is no similarities to this and racial integration. Period.

Response by SGT Jeff Everhart made Jan 1 at 2024 5:15 PM

2024-01-01T17:15:25-05:00

I don't see many trans, or anyone today banging the doors down to serve in the military today. We have the smallest military since the beginning of World War II.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 14 at 2024 1:15 PM

2024-01-14T13:15:54-05:00

For me asked and answered. There was never a taste for mixing genders, how do we leap to whatever is a gender. I read people's opinions frequently, and most are different in person. Bottom line is that people in transition are in limbo, accommodations must be made as the policy has changed.

Therefore it is asked and answered. The real question is which shower do each one use? That needs to be determined at the top, and respected. As always in the military we have only to follow there orders, and regulations that guide us. Soldier up!

Response by Amn Dale Preisach made Jan 22 at 2024 7:21 PM

2024-01-22T19:21:00-05:00

It depends if the transwoman gets hard when they see nude women in the shower.
If they do, i'd doubt the transwoman's claim.

Response by GySgt Frank Hohimer made Feb 20 at 2024 4:46 AM

2024-02-20T04:46:02-05:00

I find it fascinating how little regard we seem willing to give to women troops in these situations. We're falling all over ourselves to be concerned with the trans service members' feelings but don't seem to accord women in the same showers the same degree of consideration.

Things may not have reached this level of drama in the military as they have in other environments, like gyms and jails where open showers are more common and there have been many recorded incidents of trans individuals taking the fullest possible of the relatively impossible position they have put the authorities in, to the detriment of women's' feelings of safety and security while they are stark naked and relatively defenseless in the presence of genetic men who are typically physically larger and stronger. I'm sure the DOD will do its level best to suppress news of any such incidence in the modern military, but as the number of trans troops increase, so will these unfortunate incidents.

(I call them "unfortunate incidents" because the press releases rarely describe them as sexual assault, or rape, even when that is just exactly what they are.)

I have a daughter in the military, and I hope she never has to worry about being accosted by someone who has exploited the regs to gain access the women's' showers for their own evil intentions, but that happens all too frequently in the civilian world.

If we're going to be considerate of people's feelings, let's try and find a balance that's workable so we never arrive at that awful moment, so we can avoid having the investment this country has made in this military and its personnel go to waste. Women who feel unsafe will simply take the training we provided them, and leave. We have trouble enough meeting recruiting goals without young women being told to get accustomed to the presence of genetic men in their showers and other living spaces.

And for anyone who'd like to give me a little quiz on biology and suggest I'm not welcome in the conversation without a PhD in morphology, just know that such arguments are the same special pleadings, ad hominems (arguments against the man instead of the argument he raises) and ad verecundiam (arguments from authority), all classic logical fallacies that routinely fail to resolve problems everywhere else, like telling a man he can't have an opinion on abortion because he lacks a uterus, or telling a women she can possibly understand what it's like to go to war because she never served.

All people are very capable of imagining and reasoning, and don't have to pass your test to do so. And anyone insisting that we need to, say, pass a pop quiz on amino acids in order to contribute to one of the most tenuous issues of the day is flattering themselves and demeaning others with irrelevant nonsense.

There is a strange suggestion inherent to all of these pro-trans positions that trans people have no responsibility at all for the impact that their presence has on others, and that the physical anomaly they present to people who are not suffering from the same disorder is irrelevant and of no consequence, but that's the same awful structure as the soft racism of low expectations is when we think some minority Marine from a tough neighborhood who had to struggle to earn the GED and qualify for the Marine Corps isn't apt to be just as capable and teeming with potential as a privileged white kid from the OC. Trans women are perfectly capable of understanding that their presence is, among other things, not as easily explained in a shower full of naked women where no one is wearing name tags. How do women know this isn't just a naked guy who helped himself to their space for the kicks? What if their hair style isn't able to suggest that quite so easily? What if, in the most neurological sense, the shock of a naked, genetically male individual among the women in the shower space is experienced far sooner than the purportedly rational explanation that the male genitalia they're seeing is just the physical feature of a person who'd rather be thought of as a woman?

Or is that entire line of argument not valid because I didn't get a PhD in human morphology and genetics, and why is it again that only those people are entitled to understand our experiences for us?

You see? While we're busy pretending this is the Whig-Cliosophic Society (my nephew debates at Princeton) real women are having traumatic experience both in the military and in civilian life, and the only ones whose feelings are given much consideration are the trans folks, but not the women.

When did it become okay for us to disregard women on behalf of anyone? And when did some women's need trump other women's needs?

The ultimate answer is that there is no pat solution to the problem, but the safest one would be to make shower spaces more individualized and private, but we can barely provide our lower enlisted safe and healthy barracks spaces free of mold and mildew without blaming them for their problem and branding it a discipline thing.

I see a pattern developing. Cowardly management avoid the responsibility of making potentially unpopular decisions by blaming those least able to affect the needed change.

How American of us.

My daughter is leaving the service. I did some of the hardest and best years of my life in uniform, but if I had to enlist today, I doubt I'd have chosen to serve. The military is bleeding credibility and respect among the people we serve and from among whom we recruit. How wise is it to cater to a handful of inflexible people with medical issues if it results in falling readiness and it turns us into a punchline?

If it results in one woman's abuse, it was not worth it. And it may already have.

Response by SGT Robert Urbaniak made Mar 2 at 2024 10:38 PM

2024-03-02T22:38:42-05:00

Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus, the rest are from Uranus.

Response by SFC Benjamin Varlese made Mar 8 at 2024 6:29 PM

2024-03-08T18:29:34-05:00

To be frank, those who “transition” are suffering from a significant mental health disorder, no matter how the APA wants to reframe it to serve ideological agendas. There’s usually other mental health issues that spurned it on (or indoctrination but that’s a discussion for another day), all of which should be addressed and treated as such and enabled; schizophrenics don’t get these kinds of mental health waivers or encouragement. Retain them for proper treatment or separate them from service. Period. It’s asinine that this should even need to be discussed

Response by Capt Robert Vincelette made Mar 23 at 2024 11:04 AM

2024-03-23T11:04:18-04:00

We need to outgrow superstitions against being seen nude. Segregated nudity such as in showers and lavatories contributes nothing to respect for sexual boundaries. This is observed in clothes-optional communities by people who have studied the problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault. This will simplify the problem by eliminating it.

Response by CPL Larry Frias Jr made Mar 23 at 2024 7:39 PM

2024-03-23T19:39:28-04:00

That’s nonsense …

Response by CPL Larry Frias Jr made Mar 24 at 2024 7:55 PM

2024-03-24T19:55:03-04:00

......better ton focus on hand to hand and open field combat......all that shower stuff comes later....

Response by CPL Larry Frias Jr made Mar 24 at 2024 7:58 PM

2024-03-24T19:58:39-04:00

......all the combat arms units need to focus on hand to hand combat and staying alive ....the rear units have the luxury to shower......

Response by CAPT Edward Schmitt made Apr 28 at 2024 10:39 AM

2024-04-28T10:39:42-04:00

From my perspective the military has been turned into an experimental institution for radical social change. When we make the military a place where we institutionalize the mental illness of sexual dysphoria, transgenderism, as our most critical characteristic we have condemned countless service members to defeat and dishonor in our next war. Sorry folks but calling a man a woman or a woman a man is not based on reality or sanity. Biology is a fact regardless of what the current fad culture desires. Changing paperwork or making radical hormonal or surgical changes does not mean it is true.

Get back to building teams and training and stop the insanity of trying to twist reality to current fads. It will change again in the future.

Response by MAJ Montgomery Granger made Apr 29 at 2024 7:21 AM

2024-04-29T07:21:47-04:00

Question is still relevant, even almost a year after posting. The answer is "No." No "transgender" in the military or in the showers. The proper name is gender dysphoric. It is a mental condition by which the ill person believes something that is not true. They need professional help, not a co-dependent DoD.

Response by PO2 Terence Larkin made May 2 at 2024 2:42 AM

2024-05-02T02:42:51-04:00

This is all crazy woke things. It needs to stop this is a bridge to far in my mind.

Response by CMSgt David Bridge made May 2 at 2024 12:38 PM

2024-05-02T12:38:37-04:00

This is just downright stupid. We need to go back to the days of don’t ask don’t tell. It’s not the personal side of it that offends me, it’s the fact that we have to cater to everybody that thinks there different sex than what they were born or a different thing altogether. One day he’s a man the next day he’s a woman and the next day he’s a mixture of both and then the next day he identifies as a brown cow. This is a waste of time and money. Don’t pay for transition to whatever these things are, try to treat the mental conditions and the real issues behind it. The mission of the United States military is to fight, win wars not worry about he, they transition services and all the money and time it takes to pay for this . The military is just become away from people to join and get their sex change paid for.

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made May 2 at 2024 11:26 PM

2024-05-02T23:26:06-04:00

I’m a fan of science, and common sense, and reality. You can claim to be whatever you want, but you cannot change your dna, you cannot change your chromosomes. You are born male or female. There are about a dozen verified accounts of hermaphroditism. Everyone else has a mental health disorder. Giving people with a mental health issue a weapon and sending them to combat training seems like a bad idea. You can cut off whatever you want, sew on anything you want, it doesn’t change you, just your appearance. Be whatever you want to be, but the military is not for everyone.