How will Russia react to their aircraft getting shot down by Turkey? Is Turkey aiding ISIS or at least enabling them?

2015-11-24T14:39:26-05:00

This is wrong on many levels. First, Turkey knew it was a Russian Aircraft. I know that Russia did violate their airspace but they did so only so they could attack ISIS. Also, by shooting the aircraft down they should have known that they pilots would fall into the hands of the Rebels and they did. One pilot is died so far and the status of the other is unknown.

With all of this and seeing how Turkey responded to the moment of silence for the french attacks during a sports game does it seem that Turkey is not really in the fight against ISIS. Are they enabling ISIS to continue to fight? ISIS is right on the border with Turkey but they are not battling another. What will become of this.

Turkmen rebels today claimed to have shot dead two Russian pilots in midair as they tried to parachute to safety from their downed aircraft after it was destroyed by Turkey.
In the wake of its destruction for an airspace violation, a deputy commander in a Syrian Turkmen brigade was interviewed clutching what he claimed was a piece of the airmens' parachutes while boasting that his men opened fire as the Russians floated to the ground.
Turkish F-16 fighter planes shot down the Russian two-pilot Sukhoi Su-24 this morning after it violated Turkish airspace and ignored nearly a dozen warnings by the army, Turkish officials claimed.
Alpaslan Celik, the leader of one of the local rebel groups, spoke near the Syrian village of Yamadi following its destruction. He stated: 'Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air.'

The extraordinary downing of the plane by a NATO member has further compromised relations between the myriad of players embroiled in the Syrian conflict.
Meanwhile, Syrian rebels were seen chanting 'Allahu Akbar' over the dead body of one of the Russian pilots in shocking footage released shortly before a separate group blew up a Putin chopper sent to find survivors.
A video filmed by rebels in Syria's Turkomen Mountains, an area which has been the cause of recent tensions between Turkey and Russia, sees ethnic Turkish anti-government fighters celebrating and cheering as they discover the body of the pilot.

This was followed by a second video, claiming to show members of the U.S.-trained Free Syrian Army firing an anti-tank missile and destroying the helicopter sent by Russian forces to rescue the surviving pilot. A Russian soldier was killed in the crash, Moscow said.
Claims the jet breached Turkish airspace have been refuted by a furious Vladimir Putin who said the jet never left Syrian airspace, and the Russian President instead accused Turkey of funding ISIS, and using its military to protect the terrorist organisation. He called it a 'stab in the back' committed by 'accomplices of terrorists'.
The video, posted on Twitter by a man believed to be a Syrian-Turkmen rebel soldier, shows at least a dozen men surrounding the corpse of the pilot, dressed in Russian military fatigues, and some are heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' – 'God is great'.
Both pilots ejected themselves from the jet and a separate video shows them parachuting down to the ground as fighters fire at them.
A spokesman for the rebel group said the dead pilot, who can be seen covered in bruises and burns in the video, was already deceased when he landed, and that they are conducting search operations in the area to find the second crew member.
The pilot in the video has since been identified as Sergei Rumyantsev, a major at Shagol air force base near Chelyabinsk, east of the Ural mountains in south-central Russia.

ahed Ahmad of the 10th Brigade in the Coast, a group affiliated with the Free Syrian Army, said his group would consider exchanging the body of the Russian pilot for prisoners held by the Syrian government.
The area where the plane went down is mainly populated by Turkmens - Syrians citizens, but ethnic Turks - and is the target of a current Syrian government offensive, where President Bashar al-Assad's ground troops are supported by Russian airstrikes.
The United States believes Russia's incursion into Turkish airspace likely lasted only a matter of seconds before Turkey shot down the warplane, while Obama today laid blame with Putin's insistence on targeting moderate groups fighting the al-Assad regime instead of ISIS.
According to Fox News, he said: 'I do think that this points to an ongoing problem with the Russian operations. In the sense that they are operating very close to a Turkish border, and they are going after moderate opposition that are supported by not only Turkey but a wide range of countries.'
He added such mistakes were less likely to occur if Russia directed its focus towards attacking ISIS.

The Turkomen Mountains is controlled by several insurgent groups, who are not allied with ISIS, including al-Qaida's branch in Syria, the Nusra Front, The Free Syrian Army and the 10th Brigade in the Coast, that consists of local Turkmen fighters.
The Turkish army said the pilots of the Russian jet had been warned 'ten times in the space of five minutes' before the plane was shot down, a statement which has since been backed up by the U.S. military.
'We were able to hear everything that was going on, these (communications) were on open channels,' Baghdad-based military spokesman Colonel Steve Warren said, confirming that ten warnings were issued by Turkish pilots without response.
He added it was not immediately clear on which side of the Turkish-Syrian border the Russian jet had been flying, and it would take some time to analyse data before arriving at that determination.
Meanwhile, President Putin called Turkey's decision to down the plane a 'stab in the back' by the accomplices of ISIS, as his Defence Ministry still claims the jet was flying over Syria and never entered Turkish airspace.
'The loss we suffered today came from a stab in the back delivered by accomplices of the terrorists,' President Putin said, speaking at a meeting with King Abdullah II of Jordan in Sochi, Russia, on Thursday afternoon.
'We will never tolerate such atrocities as happened today and we hope that the international community will find the strength to join forces and fight this evil,' Putin said.
The president warned that 'today's tragic event will have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations', shortly before Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov cancelled tomorrow's visit to Turkey, where the two nations were due to discuss Syria.
Putin boldly claimed that Turkey has been buying oil from ISIS, funding the terrorist group, and accused Ankara of protecting the jihadists with the country's military, Moscow-funded RT.com reports.
In a separate incident, sources told AFP in Beirut that a Russian helicopter in the same area in Syria was destroyed by rebels on the ground after being forced to make an emergency landing following damage from rebel fire.
A Syrian military source told AFP that a unit of Syrian regime special forces saved the dozen-strong Russian commando team and brought them back to the regime stronghold of Latakia.

Just hours before the Russian jet was shot down, Ankara called for a U.N Security Council meeting to discuss attacks on Turkmen areas in Syria, which have forced some 1,700 civilians to flee their homes in the last three days, according to Turkish officials.
It followed a summoning of Moscow's ambassador on Friday, when Ankara demanded an immediate end to the Russian military operation near the Syrian border saying the Russian actions did not 'constitute a fight against terrorism' but the bombing of civilians.
Ambassador Andrey Karlov was warned during the meeting that the Russian operations could lead to serious consequences, the ministry said.
Turkish officials said the Russian plane was first warned that it was within ten miles of the Turkish border, and the aircraft then crossed over Turkish territory, adding that a second plane had also approached the border and been warned.
'The data we have is very clear. There were two planes approaching our border, we warned them as they were getting too close,' a senior Turkish official said.
'We warned them to avoid entering Turkish airspace before they did, and we warned them many times. Our findings show clearly that Turkish airspace was violated multiple times. And they violated it knowingly,' the official said.

NATO allies will hold an 'extraordinary' meeting later today at Ankara's request to discuss Tuesday morning's incident, an alliance official said.
'At the request of Turkey, the North Atlantic Council will hold an extraordinary meeting at 4pm. The aim of this extraordinary NAC is for Turkey to inform Allies about the downing of a Russian airplane,' the official said.
The North Atlantic Council consists of ambassadors from the 28 NATO member states.
A Turkish military statement, issued before it was confirmed that the jet was Russian, said the plane entered Turkish airspace over the town of Yayladagi, in Hatay province.
'On Nov. 24, 2015 at around 09.20am(7.20am GMT), a plane whose nationality is not known violated the Turkish airspace despite several warnings (ten times within five minutes) in the area of Yayladagi, Hatary.
'Two F-16 planes on aerial patrol duty in the area intervened against the plane in question in accordance with the rules of engagement at 09.24am(7.24am GMT).'
The Turkish Army later released a radar analysis image which they say tracks the movement of the Russian Sukhoi Su-24 jet, showing where it entered Turkish air space, and where it went down.
'This isn't an action against any specific country. Our F-16s took the necessary steps to defend Turkey's sovereign territory,' a Turkish official told news agencies on condition of anonymity.
Russia's Defence Ministry said in a statement that they are looking into the circumstances of the crash of the Russian jet.
'The Ministry of Defence would like to stress that the plane was over the Syrian territory throughout the flight.'
The statement also claimed that the Sukhoi-24 had been shot down from the ground at the altitude of 6,000metres (3.73m).
Vladimir Putin's spokesman called the downing of the Su-24 warplane a 'very serious incident' but declined to comment further until more facts emerged.
'It is just impossible to say something without having full information,' said Dmitry Peskov.
Russia's government-run TV Zvezda claimed the warplane had been in Syrian airspace the entire time, which allegedly could be proven by 'control systems', a ministry spokesman said.
'It's the kind of thing we're been warning about,' said Ian Kearns, director of the European Leadership Network think-tank in London.
'And it's a direct military engagement between a NATO country and Russia, so I think it's a serious incident in anybody's book.'
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has spoken with the chief of military staff and the foreign minister about the developments on the Syrian border, the prime minister's office said in a statement, without mentioning the downed jet.
He has ordered the foreign ministry to consult with NATO, the United Nations and related countries on the latest developments, his office said.

Last month, Turkish jets shot down an unidentified drone that had also violated Turkey's airspace.
Turkey and Russia have long been at loggerheads over the Syrian conflict, with Ankara seeking Assad's overthrow while Moscow does everything to keep him in power.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was due to visit Turkey on Wednesday to discuss Syria, in a trip arranged before this incident, which he abruptly canceller on Tuesday afternoon. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is meanwhile expected to visit Russia for talks with Putin in late December.
Russia's participation in the Syrian peace process talks in Vienna, the co-operation on the UN Security Council resolution and meetings between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Nato leaders provided signs of a renewed diplomatic engagement between Moscow and the West in recent weeks.
French President Francois Hollande will meet Mr Putin on Thursday and Russia has offered co-operation in the fight against IS following the atrocities in Paris and the downing of a Russian passenger jet in Egypt.

Turkey shoots down RUSSIAN jet on Syrian border, video show dead pilot

Turkish army officials say they shot down the Russian Sukhoi Su-24 after it ignored warnings, however, Russia's Ministry of Defence claims the jet was not violating Turkish airspace.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Nov 24 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-11-24T14:47:05-05:00

What action was taken in response to the blowing up an airliner full of people. They will respond, but not massive enough to stoke the flames in the ME. IMO

Response by SFC Kevin Cornett made Nov 24 at 2015 2:48 PM

2015-11-24T14:48:51-05:00

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-11-24T14:52:54-05:00

Also, the Free Syrian army shot down 1 of the 2 helicopters try to rescue the surviving pilot .... I think Russia will soon take some kind of military action against Turkey ... and the "THING" will hit the fan ...

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 24 at 2015 3:34 PM

2015-11-24T15:34:19-05:00

This place is getting more interesting by the day.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Nov 24 at 2015 3:43 PM

2015-11-24T15:43:37-05:00

The Russians have violated Turkey's airspace more than once and have been warned about it. It will be fairly easy to prove where the aircraft was when it was engaged. I have read that the Russian Mig was warned 10 times (or attempted to be warned).

Does Turkey support ISIS directly or indirectly? I think there are likely many in Turkey that do and some in their government that do. Why then are they in NATO, good question. They are a good ally only when it is convenient for them to be one.

I suspect Russian pilots will be more careful in the future. I don't think this will escalate as I do think the evidence will show Russia was in the wrong place, Turkey warned and then fired. Game over.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2015 3:51 PM

2015-11-24T15:51:24-05:00

The Russians have repeatedly violated Turkish airspace since they began operations in Syria, and it is not likely that it is an accident. The Russians are annoyed that they have to fly all the way around Turkey to fly supplies and sorties into Syria, and say "mother may I" to transit the Bosporus. The Turks meanwhile have repeatedly warned against airspace violations, allegedly shooting down a Russian UAV last month. That SU-24 was warned ten times (according to the Turks) before they intercepted it and shot it down.
A little historical subtext:
Russia and Turkey have been historical enemies for a very long time. When the Russians seized Crimea in the first place back in the 1800s, they took it from the Ottoman Empire. What the Russians would just love is to use their newly acquired peninsula as a base to launch flights against ISIS. It is another way for them to assert their will on a neighbor, and solidify their claim on their newly seized territory, The Russians have an excellent memory for history. So do the Turks.

One other note, the piece of territory that the Russian plane was shot down over, Hayat Province, was only annexed by Turkey from Syria in 1939. Prior to that, it was Ottoman territory up until the end of WWI, when it was included as part of the French protectorate of Lebanon-Syria. Syria has never recognized that territory as belonging to Turkey, so there might be more at work here than meets the casual eye.
Not only that, but the aircraft that was shot down was attacking ethnic Turkmen from a Free Syrian Army faction, not ISIS as the Russians say.
I think Turkey is looking after their own interests, and the Russians were probing their airspace on purpose.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2015 5:08 PM

2015-11-24T17:08:14-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, I don't know why Turkey ultimately decided to fire upon and shoot down a Russian fighter aircraft engaging ISIS targets on the ground in Syria, but I do not believe for a moment this decision was made in a vacuum or with little regard for the ensuing fallout such an action was likely to elicit. Sure, the Russian aircraft likely breached Turkish airspace, albeit unintentionally, as it sought out it's IS targets. But why would Turkey choose to shoot a Russian aircraft down, especially in a desolate, remote border region where no population centers or Turkish infrastructure could be claimed to have been threatened by the breach of the Russian aircraft? Yes, Turkey may be a member of NATO and a named member of Obama's coalition to defeat ISIS, but their actions are starting to say something entirely different. Turkey may be able to mea culpa it's way out of this one with Russia this one time, but if anything happens again, Turkey can expect to incur the full weight of Putin's anger in whatever manner he chooses to dole it out.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Nov 24 at 2015 5:11 PM

2015-11-24T17:11:34-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Just be glad this happened today, and not pre-1991.

This has a lot of bad potential. If Russia responds militarily against a NATO member...well, I don't have to tell you what that means. Here's to hoping they keep level heads.

On another note, I watched a video of rebels shooting at the pilots as they drifted down. I'm no fan of Russians, but what a bunch of fucking cowards. Made me grit my teeth. At least let them get down and then engage if you gotta be a dick.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Nov 24 at 2015 5:17 PM

2015-11-24T17:17:40-05:00

I suppose you have all heard that Russia has a Missile Cruiser on the coast of Syria. With orders to fire on any threat.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Nov 24 at 2015 6:20 PM

2015-11-24T18:20:36-05:00

Since ISIS has carried out attacks in Turkey, I don't think they would have what you would call a "Close" Relationship but being they are wedged between a lot of Players I suspect they do quite a bit of dancing to show their Independence of Sorts. I think they are Nato Now I also know we have had a Collection site in Incirlick that has been there as long as I can remember that the US uses to Watch Russia. I think they are Majority Sufi Muslim which doesn't engender a warm and fuzzy between them to either orthodox Sunni or Shia.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Nov 24 at 2015 7:49 PM

2015-11-24T19:49:36-05:00

Turkey is a big buyer of Russia's oil and gas. So I think it will result with tighter ROE's for Turkey after Russia responses with a "save face" act!

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 24 at 2015 8:11 PM

2015-11-24T20:11:50-05:00

I would bet much along the lines of Vietnam - SAM sites with Russian troops. I wouldn't be surprised if something blows up in Turkey.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2015 8:44 PM

2015-11-24T20:44:58-05:00

I think Turkey believes it is reacting to airspace violations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-warns-russia-over-airspace-violations-as-syria-airstrikes-widen/2015/10/05/19d2e7b0-6b47-11e5-b31c-d80d62b53e28_story.html

NATO warns Russia over airspace violations as Syria airstrikes widen

The rifts grow deeper between Moscow and the Western alliance over the Syrian conflict.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Nov 24 at 2015 9:14 PM

2015-11-24T21:14:03-05:00

"With all of this and seeing how Turkey responded to the moment of silence for the french attacks during a sports game does it seem that Turkey is not really in the fight against ISIS. Are they enabling ISIS to continue to fight? ISIS is right on the border with Turkey but they are not battling another. What will become of this."

Let's be careful not to claim something as having an entire nation's imprimatur when it doesn't. Those were soccer hooligans that chose to be idiots by making noise during the moment of silence. Not an entire nation. A similar thing occurred at a football game here in America. Are we all anti- French? As for this shootdown I pray for cooler heads to prevail. No one wins if this escalates.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Nov 24 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-11-24T21:21:34-05:00

Russia will do nothing. They are quite boastful, as are we. In the end they do not want war with NATO anymore than we want war with Russia.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2015 9:44 PM

2015-11-24T21:44:30-05:00

With French President Hollande openly seeking partnership with both Russia and the U.S. to defeat ISIS in the wake of the attacks in Paris, I think Putin sees an opportunity to fragment NATO, given Obama's weak public statements and somewhat humorous insistence that any partnership involving Russia is contingent on the removal of Bashir Al Assad from power in Syria. Unlike the U.S., Russia, like France, is a recent victim of ISIS targeting. In the court of World opinion, this gives Putin the opening he has been waiting for to expand Russia's leadership role in the fight against ISIS. When combined with France's renewed focus on aggressive operations in the fight against ISIS, Obama's calls to stay the course with his fictitious coalition of 65 nations appears laughable; even more so as news emerges that the U.S. has provided France vital ISIS targets that it has been apparently sitting on for well over a year and as accounts of U.S. pilots involved in strikes against ISIS targets frequently were denied authorization to engage and destroy ISIS targets, often returning to base with 75% or more of their munitions unexpended.

Yes, Putin is again playing his brand of strategic chess. He knows of the coalition's difficulties in getting Turkey to take an active role in supporting actions against ISIS, and he now may have parlayed this into a moment of truth for both the Obama Administration and the Government of Turkey, exposing a rift that may soon be impossible to continue to gloss over. This will cause ripples across NATO, further highlight the failures of U.S. foreign policy, and place Putin in a position of strength as he negotiates the future of the fight against ISIS.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Nov 25 at 2015 10:50 AM

2015-11-25T10:50:54-05:00

For their first step they are moving their top of the line anti-aircraft system to the AO. Putin will find other ways of pay back, senior KGB operators are generally a clever bunch....watch for further actions. I do think it shows that the Russians aren't up to our standards of performance.....Turkish pilots had a distinct advantage by flying the F16.....

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Nov 25 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-11-25T11:18:58-05:00

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/24/world/middleeast/russia-turkey-jet-shoot-down-maps.html?_r=0#pattern

Sorting Out What Russia and Turkey Say Happened in the Sky

Comparing the conflicting versions of the events.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Nov 25 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-11-25T13:59:57-05:00

Not defending Turkey in this, but Russia has had a problem of "flexing" it's muscles and thinking no one would care or do anything. Now this unfortunate incident has happened, who's fault is it really? You've spent the last few years "testing how far" you could go, and someone finally cashed in on a debt your a** can't cash. The real pain behind this are the pilots and their families. They're the middlemen in a mess started in Russia, and "ended" in Turkey. The next important question is will Russia stop testing the waters or will they continue until either they "accidentally" shoot down one of ours, or we "accidentally" shoot down one of theirs? This is one battle Russia cannot win in regards to air power and air superiority.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Nov 26 at 2015 12:57 AM

2015-11-26T00:57:29-05:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner. Why not let President Putin speak for himself: "Planes are on thing, war is another." In defense of Turkey, they have always supported the Sunni Islamists, I don't understand the question. The Turks are at war with the Kurds and have no use for Basher Assad. Turkey is the fence for Islamic State oil and like Saudi Arabia Turkey provides aid and support the Sunni Islamists. The Turks let the US fly air strikes out of Turkey because they get a lot of money from the US to do it. They also get the weapons they use to kill the Kurds from the US.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Nov 27 at 2015 7:25 AM

2015-11-27T07:25:31-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Poorly!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2015 7:32 AM

2015-11-27T07:32:13-05:00

Apart from all the good comments below from 1SG Private RallyPoint Member and others, let's not forget that Syria (with Russian missiles and probably help) shot down a Turkish jet in 2012 for violating Syrian airspace. Its been a couple years, but this is classic tit-for-tat.

Response by LTC Stephen Conway made Feb 25 at 2016 12:36 AM

2016-02-25T00:36:09-05:00

I had a conversation with a former Turkish Army Sergeant a few years back when he worked at UPS as one of the evening supervisors...He stated that Western Syria and the Turks are from the same clan or people just like Eastern Afghanistan and Western Pakistan have the same kinship. So Turkey is freaking pissed off since Russia is killing their historical people. I am not surprised for the shootdown. I saw that same video of the rebels blowing up the rescue helicopter. It is both cool to watch the chopper get destroyed and sad for the pilots parachuting who should be protected under Geneva Convention. We are in World War V and this is no time for military cutbacks!