Posted on May 22, 2015
I find that I am more and more bitter about Iraq
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As I respond to the questions regarding Iraq, I think back to training the IA and I think about how I KNEW then that they would lose that country to the first tough Girl Scout that came along. Then we kept training them, teaching them about our tanks, GIVING them our tanks, and I had to spend HOURS teaching them how to fight. They were incompetent then and I KNEW it wouldn't work out. I gave them a year. In less than that they had already started losing ground to AQI and then ISIS came along and beat them into the ground and just as I...no as we ALL knew that were there they ran. Giving up everything that we had worked for. Personally, I have NO inclination to help them. I am going recruiting from here thankfully, but still I find that more and more the posts that I reply with are showing that bitterness. How common is that to all those that dealt with the same thing?
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Army
Army
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
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Brother, you are NOT alone in your thinking and I couldn't agree more personally, but I'm retired. I strongly urge you to watch what you sign your name to when in uniform. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but when failed policy is apparent, they will look to point the finger elsewhere. God help us if they look at the troops who didn't back our nation's policies 100% and blame them for not drinking their koolaid. Wait for retirement. Just my .02
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SFC (Join to see), the fallacy was that the Iraqi Army was ever a professional organization. The majority and depending on where you were the vast majority wanted to be in the Iraqi Army for one reason: it was a job. With a paycheck.
They were not patriots.
They were dangerously weak in squad level and platoon level leaders.
In many cases, entire formations were in existence only on paper, so their commanders could collect all of the Jundi's paychecks. Those formations didn't desert, they didn't exist in the first place.
I too pored a lot of blood and sweat into the IA. I perceived them as a police force at best. But there was some good men in there who wanted what was best for their country. They just didn't know how to get there.
They were in good company. In eight years of operations there, we hadn't figured out how to get there either.
No one should be surprised that the IA collapsed. It had happened before plenty of times with the IP or MOI troops. This one had strategic implications.
Now we have handed Iraq to Iran and the nut jobs left over from AQI. And we saw it coming. And we didn't care. So now to "fix" it we are contemplating Gulf War III.
A George Santayama quote comes to mind about repeating the mistakes of history because you forgot the lessons learned the hard way before.
They were not patriots.
They were dangerously weak in squad level and platoon level leaders.
In many cases, entire formations were in existence only on paper, so their commanders could collect all of the Jundi's paychecks. Those formations didn't desert, they didn't exist in the first place.
I too pored a lot of blood and sweat into the IA. I perceived them as a police force at best. But there was some good men in there who wanted what was best for their country. They just didn't know how to get there.
They were in good company. In eight years of operations there, we hadn't figured out how to get there either.
No one should be surprised that the IA collapsed. It had happened before plenty of times with the IP or MOI troops. This one had strategic implications.
Now we have handed Iraq to Iran and the nut jobs left over from AQI. And we saw it coming. And we didn't care. So now to "fix" it we are contemplating Gulf War III.
A George Santayama quote comes to mind about repeating the mistakes of history because you forgot the lessons learned the hard way before.
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1SG (Join to see)
Yes, LTC Paul Labrador that is true. But most of those were either killed by us during the Gulf War or in March of 2003 or were purged to get rid of all of the Ba'ath Party folks in December of '03.
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SFC (Join to see)
Those that were left were not REALLY that interested in working with us were they? I mean I agree that the hard core we had to get rid of for sure however if there were any that remained they were not really lining up to be a part of the new government, much less as a part of the new "puppet government" right? I don't remember them anyway.
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1SG (Join to see)
Some of the Colonels were survivors from back in the day, but they were survivors because they did not stick out. Not exactly the cream of the crop.
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1SG (Join to see)
MSG El Sar, it didn't make the news much, but several generals were charged and quietly retired due to their fraud with ghost units. Despite their crimes and the magnitude of the consequences.
Why?
Because fraud like this is a veritable cottage industry in multiple ministries throughout the GoIZ. Prosecute too hard, and the generals might just start exposing people.
It used to be that fraud would consist of bribery and nepotism. Well, sometimes you just don't have enough relatives. So you start making people up. The folks down in the Qadas and Nahias out in the boondocks never know that they are purposely underserved, they just take it as a continuance of poor governance.
In the event that we have to go back in there, we will have a major challenge in this area.
Why?
Because fraud like this is a veritable cottage industry in multiple ministries throughout the GoIZ. Prosecute too hard, and the generals might just start exposing people.
It used to be that fraud would consist of bribery and nepotism. Well, sometimes you just don't have enough relatives. So you start making people up. The folks down in the Qadas and Nahias out in the boondocks never know that they are purposely underserved, they just take it as a continuance of poor governance.
In the event that we have to go back in there, we will have a major challenge in this area.
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I knew as a young SPC in 04-05 when the IA where known as ICDC that it wouldn't work. It didn't work in Vietnam for us, it didn't work for the British Empire prior to WW1....why would it work now? What makes me bitter is the mass loss of Coalition lives in the OIF/OND debacle. That's what posses me off.
As an additional couple notas for my bitterness regarding ISIS. It's the ethnic cleansing that they are doing....murdering thousands because of their xenophobic bull sh!t. Now their zealots are destroying artifacts of human history. These two things puts me in a place where I WANT to fight them, if only to preserve history, and innocent lives.
As an additional couple notas for my bitterness regarding ISIS. It's the ethnic cleansing that they are doing....murdering thousands because of their xenophobic bull sh!t. Now their zealots are destroying artifacts of human history. These two things puts me in a place where I WANT to fight them, if only to preserve history, and innocent lives.
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SFC (Join to see)
Yeah and I think that is going to be the problem the tight, tight, super tight ROE. I think that it would be something that you would find would be so self defeating that you would be more frustrating than New Dawn, and I know that you weren't questioning anything battle.
I don't know I am just surmising what I suspect.
I don't know I am just surmising what I suspect.
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CPT Jack Durish
The situation in Vietnam was vastly different. South Vietnam was divided by two principle factions, the Catholics and the Buddhists. However, nothing wanted anything to do with the Communists and stood ready to defend their nation against them. Sadly, we abandoned them and they could not long resist the subsequent invasion of their neighbors to the north who enjoyed all the benefits of complete support from the Soviets and the Chinese.
Iraq is divided into many warring factions of Islam. Replacing a dictatorship with democracy only served to allow a different sect (the majority) to impose their will on the others and there was not will to fight as a unified force. Our support was wasted on them.
Iraq is divided into many warring factions of Islam. Replacing a dictatorship with democracy only served to allow a different sect (the majority) to impose their will on the others and there was not will to fight as a unified force. Our support was wasted on them.
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SFC (Join to see)
I was referring to the whole "nation building" concept. It plain doesn't work on a lot of cultures.
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SGT Rick Ash
SSG Walker
You got everything right. And soon, we can have the same conversation about The Ghan. I financially contribute a lot to The Wounded Warrior Project even though they serve only post 9/11 vets/active duty. I was Shocked to learn they serve 500,000 soldiers with varying degrees of PTSD, TBI and other related illnesses. Talk about the heavy price our youth and leaders in the armed forces have paid. I also get the names and numbers of five (5) warriors per day from http://www.battle-bro.com and these brave men and women have been to hell and are not home YET. I had a 3 AM call last night from a young man that was thinking about suicide but he acted as I had asked, he called me first. He was having severe flashbacks and I'll tell ya', he had me right there with him. Fears and dangers I had not thought about for many years. I kept calling him by his first name only and I think that's what worked. He finally realized he was home in the states and he quit freaking out. Since we report on every Battle-Bro call we make I have had a call or two from our Sr. Counselors checking in on ME. As a country we must realize that we can't be the police force of the world. Congratulations on all of the Trailblazer Awards you have won.
You got everything right. And soon, we can have the same conversation about The Ghan. I financially contribute a lot to The Wounded Warrior Project even though they serve only post 9/11 vets/active duty. I was Shocked to learn they serve 500,000 soldiers with varying degrees of PTSD, TBI and other related illnesses. Talk about the heavy price our youth and leaders in the armed forces have paid. I also get the names and numbers of five (5) warriors per day from http://www.battle-bro.com and these brave men and women have been to hell and are not home YET. I had a 3 AM call last night from a young man that was thinking about suicide but he acted as I had asked, he called me first. He was having severe flashbacks and I'll tell ya', he had me right there with him. Fears and dangers I had not thought about for many years. I kept calling him by his first name only and I think that's what worked. He finally realized he was home in the states and he quit freaking out. Since we report on every Battle-Bro call we make I have had a call or two from our Sr. Counselors checking in on ME. As a country we must realize that we can't be the police force of the world. Congratulations on all of the Trailblazer Awards you have won.
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