I just visited West Point. Are the best Army officers often from West Point?

2016-10-03T23:13:19-04:00

Response by SN Greg Wright made Oct 3 at 2016 11:16 PM

2016-10-03T23:16:16-04:00

The best Army officers, sure. But the best officers period come out of the Naval Academy. :)

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Oct 3 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-10-03T23:19:03-04:00

No. USMA produces many good officers. Other commissioning sources produce good officers. Both occasionally produce officers that are not so good. Plus, the idea of 'best' is subjective and these things just lead to debates and anecdotes ad nausea ;-)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-10-03T23:19:20-04:00

I suppose often but not always.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Oct 3 at 2016 11:35 PM

2016-10-03T23:35:29-04:00

They call 'em Cadidiot's for a reason. The best Army officer is the one that realizes he/ she is not the best yet but is willing to learn beyond college/academy. If you want to be the best, never stop learning.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 2:00 AM

2016-10-04T02:00:23-04:00

I always felt like the ROTC officers had an edge over the USMA officers starting out, as they were educated, not trained in college. ;). But it should be noted that some USMA officers turn out pretty well, overcoming their initial disadvantage.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 4 at 2016 3:54 AM

2016-10-04T03:54:20-04:00

Never ask an Officer if they are from West Point. If they are they'll let you know. Repeatedly.

Response by Capt Gregory Prickett made Oct 4 at 2016 5:05 AM

2016-10-04T05:05:26-04:00

It's been my experience that young USMA officers sometimes have interpersonal skill issues, compared to OCS and ROTC officers. The good ones overcome it and progress. The bad ones don't.

Good officers come from all of the commissioning sources. It is what the individual makes of the opportunity, not the letters on their class ring.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Oct 4 at 2016 5:53 AM

2016-10-04T05:53:52-04:00

The best officer's come from the enlisted ranks more often than not

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-10-04T07:29:46-04:00

I'm not a West Point guy...however, that being said...don't make the assumption that just because someone went to West Point that they are automatically better officers. I've worked (still do) with folks that got their commission thru West Point, OCS and ROTC. You have stellar performers out of each. You also have duds out of each.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 8:14 AM

2016-10-04T08:14:37-04:00

I think so , they are better then ROTC , in my opinion

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Oct 4 at 2016 8:21 AM

2016-10-04T08:21:17-04:00

Perhaps, but one thing I've seen for sure in my military and civilian careers is that the worst leaders/managers have been West Point graduates. In defense of the Point, they produce some quality officers, but many not so fine ones slip through. Same with other service academies but WP seems to crank out more losers.

Response by SGT Curtis Alexander made Oct 4 at 2016 9:31 AM

2016-10-04T09:31:59-04:00

As a NCO. I have had the honor to work with some amazing Officers from the Academy and other schools. Its not the school that makes the leader.. Best advice I can give.. Think of all the Leaders and Mentors you have had the honor to work with. Now create your own style.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 9:41 AM

2016-10-04T09:41:09-04:00

I'm sure there may be a few, but the best officers, in my opinion, are those that started off in the enlisted ranks. Fresh grads from any of the military academies tend to let their shiny new bars go to their head.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Oct 4 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-10-04T10:14:13-04:00

Oscar: We never know where the best officer will come from. Mustangs, direct commission, ROTC, Academies are just ways Army managerial and leadership employees are hired. It's not till any employee is fully train and tested before you know if they are cream or milk.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Oct 4 at 2016 10:23 AM

2016-10-04T10:23:49-04:00

In my experience as a Infantry NCO years ago the West Point Grads can at least read a map-by the way don't ever expect an Officer who can't read one to ask for assistance until you are really lost!!

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Oct 4 at 2016 10:59 AM

2016-10-04T10:59:41-04:00

Ask how many SOCOM officers are ring knockers.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 12:29 PM

2016-10-04T12:29:51-04:00

An Officer's particular commissioning source has very little to do with how "good" or "bad" they are. I graduated from USMA, taught the Officer Basic Course for 2 years and was an ROTC PMS for 4 years. I've seen a lot of good Officers and a lot of bad Officer's from every commissioning source. The quality of the Officer depends on who they are, not where they came from.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 4:19 PM

2016-10-04T16:19:46-04:00

The best Army officers come from the Naval Academy. Don't believe me? 100% of the Army officers who have ever walked on the moon graduated from Annapolis.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-10-04T16:51:40-04:00

Typically the West Pointers think so. My interactions with them have been mixed at best. My roommate at BOLC II would tell anyone who would listen about how much better trained he was being a West Point graduate. He left the Army after 4 years as a 1LT. I will say West Point Officers tend to enjoy a level of "privilege" the rest of us do not.

However, as others have said all commissioning sources produce good officers. An individual's character has more to do with whether they're successful than where they earned their bars from.

Response by SPC Richard Stengline made Oct 4 at 2016 8:09 PM

2016-10-04T20:09:25-04:00

Some I served with were great others average. I had this 1 full bird that did not like what I did one time he caught up to me in my orderly room and started chewing my ass. I look around doors were closing he wanted to know who my platoon sergeant and platoon leader were. I stood at attention taking my ass chewing not saying a word he finally told me get my ass out of there. Thought that was the end until 3 weeks later got a call go to regiment shit he caught back up and here it comes. Go down there he calls me in at attention waiting for it tells me relax there are some things he wants me to do for him. Well ok turns out he liked that I would not talk go figure.

Response by SFC Daniel Zelch made Oct 4 at 2016 8:48 PM

2016-10-04T20:48:55-04:00

In my career I noticed the best officers generally were prior enlisted. I had a few good officers that came thru West Point. Most West Pointers come to their first duty station with a big chip on their shoulder, and a better then you attitude. If they are assigned to a grunt unit these issues are usually cleared up pretty damn quickly.

Response by SPC David Willis made Nov 29 at 2017 4:18 PM

2017-11-29T16:18:29-05:00

On paper, sure, I suppose the USMA breeds the best training sand box training officers. Theyre taught very well about historical defeats and victories and tactics that have been proven to work more often than not. If being a military officer were just about op orders west pointers would be tops. However, much like the saying "no plan survives first contact" and thanks to things like Murphys Law, west pointers tend to be about as good as a typical officer. You can know all about Custer, and the Normandy invasion, and how to run a company level operation, but if you cant get troops to the fight and more importantly get them home you'll be phased out pretty quick. However saying that the worst LT I had was a green to gold guy and he made it about 7 months into our deployment before they swapped him out.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 29 at 2017 4:56 PM

2017-11-29T16:56:41-05:00

I don't necessarily think that anyone out of an academy is better than their OTS or ROTC counterparts. There is good and bad with each. Academy officers are surrounded 24 hours a day 365 days a year with other cadets that they lead. That leadership doesn't necessarily transition well when leading enlisted folks. They lack interpersonal skills because they only see each other.
ROTC and OTS commissionees don't have the 24/7 leadership lab that the academy guys get either. I think if a leader is a leader, you won't be able to tell the difference between them at all unl3ess they tell you and those that tell you...well, if they have to tell you they are looking for something. Real leaders don't flaunt their colors like a peacock...they focus on the mission and that is where the rubber meets the road.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Dec 4 at 2017 3:25 AM

2017-12-04T03:25:21-05:00

My general opinion of most service academy officers is that they went to 4 years of high School where Mommy told them when to get up, what to eat, when to study, and when to go to bed. Then they go to college where somebody tells them when to get up, what to eat, when to study, and when to go to bed. I tend to have greater confidence in a leader who learned his/her decision making skills, starting as a Freshman. Should I head for the coast and start my Spring Break early, or go to the Calculus review for the next exam, and what about that Babe that moved into the apartment two doors down. I must form a strategy to meet her without looking impetuous. It is from those roots that great leaders ascend.

Response by MSG John Joseph made Dec 4 at 2017 3:41 AM

2017-12-04T03:41:09-05:00

I was an SMI at a mid size college so I witnessed both sides of this. I can say West Point has the resources to give their Cadets a professional military advantage over ROTC students. During LDAC at Ft Lewis Wa, USMA brought a platoon of Cadets to go through the 5 week assessment with the students. Overall they were better prepared in military decision making during the field portion. There was also a huge contrast in military bearing. I had some outstanding students but there never seemed enough time to effectively mentor them. To say one is better than the other is pointless, USMA has history and tradition but overall the officers and NCO's mentoring the 2LT's makes the difference.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2017 6:44 AM

2017-12-04T06:44:07-05:00

I was a direct commission - at a time when women officers were not always respected as officers by other officers and enlisted who felt military service was not appropriate for women - other than as a nurse or in some other traditional female role. My impression was ring knockers - and even worse those who attended pre-academy high school,academies - were rather too sure of themselves and took risks that might set themselves up as career military leaders. They tended to be more cliquish - believe they were better than the rest - and felt other academy graduates would support them without regard for how badly they screwed up. That said - a few years out of school - the officers who were selected to be retained and advance tended to be those of proven character and leadership - maybe influenced somewhat by old school ties - but certainly chosen for their ability as officers not students. Warmest Regards, Sandy :)

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Dec 4 at 2017 7:40 AM

2017-12-04T07:40:42-05:00

West Point certainly has produced some very good Officers but then so has ROTC and also places such as Virginia Military Institute, Norwich, the Citadel, Texas A&M or even the former Pennsylvania Military College. In the final look after all the education and training it still falls upon the individual Officer to take full advantage of His education and training and be the best He can be.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2017 8:07 AM

2017-12-04T08:07:03-05:00

This may be a double edged sword. I have gotten asked if i think the Naval Academy produces the best officers. Often, I would say yes, but I also add that it also puts out the worst officers as well.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 7 at 2017 11:43 AM

2017-12-07T11:43:30-05:00

I worked on joint service staffs as a USAF officer, civilian contractor, and Army Civilian. Some of the Army Officers I served with were West Point graduates. I don't know that they were better staff officers than their counterparts from other commissioning sources. What I did see was improved opportunity for promotion and assignments for the West Point grads. The one GO I served under who was a West Point grad only advertised it because he hung a lot of "Beat Navy" stuff around the command section every fall. Turns out he had been a West Point football player. He was also a darn good leader.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 4 at 2019 7:40 PM

2019-04-04T19:40:23-04:00

What matters is your leadership abilities and your value as a staff officer.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2019 7:58 PM

2019-04-04T19:58:18-04:00

From what I've seen and experienced in the Army, the best officers came from West Point and non West Point, even former prior service, Marines.
So, where do the best officer's come from, "Really", in my opinion, and not stepping on anyone's shoes, the best came from, "The Combat Zone".

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Apr 5 at 2019 7:17 AM

2019-04-05T07:17:24-04:00

Good officers come from all three accession routes. Much depends on what you bring with you!

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 20 at 2019 9:25 AM

2019-05-20T09:25:04-04:00

Best as I see it are former enlisted. OCS. If you are a west point grad and do not make col you failed. Had one when I worked for army recuiting support center. He was a fool. Selling real estate on the side because both of his wife's divorced him.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2019 11:36 AM

2019-05-20T11:36:17-04:00

My experience with west pointers typically is that they have the old mentality that the enlisted are the lowly doers, and the officers are the only people that matter, like 1770s type mentality. This is a different Army, and that kind of thinking doesnt belong. We need officers who listen to their NCOs. LTs typically have no experience, and some basic training in patrolling and paperwork. A good one listens to the NCOs to build themself into a great officer who leads and listens

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 20 at 2019 1:28 PM

2019-05-20T13:28:03-04:00

It boils down to leadership, tactical, and technical knowledge regardless of commissioning source.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2019 11:28 PM

2019-05-20T23:28:02-04:00

The best officer is found in the quality of his soul, not where he received his training.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 21 at 2019 8:49 PM

2019-05-21T20:49:25-04:00

It's funny you ask that...the Army ROTC unit I was in before USAF OTS traned a good deal at West Point, in formations by the barracks, on the obstacle course, rappelling off the cliff, on the orienteering range, so I got a pretty fair idea of what the place was actually like, as far as I could...also, had I known that ROTC unit commanders can apparently nominate for the academy for their svc, I'd certainly have asked, I only learned that little tidbit much later on...my next younger brother was USMMA Kings Point, I commissioned him when he finished, so I got a pretty fair description of his place also, from all he'd told me...the deputy base commander where I was had been Annapolis, he opted for USAF when he'd finished, the Lt. Gen. of my installation had been a B-17 tail gunner who'd gone West Point then USAF after WW2, also, one enlisted guy where I was did get into USAFA in CO, while I'd been there, I'd read in the installation newspaper...I worked with a good many USAFA grads, also SUNY Maritime College grads, known many other USMMA grads as well, also had a chance at one point to have done a one-year temp faculty spot at SUNY Maritime that I'd chickened out on, for which I kick myself fairly regularly, I also kick myself I never applied there, I very nearly did and might've actually had a halfway decent chance, I think...I just figured you might find such trivia of interest...last, my best friend in USAF had been from VMI, so I got his perspective on his place, as well....

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made May 21 at 2019 11:21 PM

2019-05-21T23:21:44-04:00

NO, or rather not necessarily, some were "90 day wonders, others were ROTC with prior service... and a few were Battlefield commissions.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made May 30 at 2019 10:54 AM

2019-05-30T10:54:40-04:00

All three sources produce great officers, capable officers, and poor officers. Being a jerk equal opportunity.

Response by SPC John Decker made Jul 14 at 2019 7:36 PM

2019-07-14T19:36:25-04:00

IMHO the best officers come from the enlisted ranks. OCS. They understand how the lower ranks feel. They're smart enough to have made it through that level of training and the ones I knew were more respected than most other types of officers.

Response by LTC Stephan Porter made Mar 14 at 2020 10:46 AM

2020-03-14T10:46:48-04:00

I know officers on both ends of the spectrum (excellent-terrible) from all sources (West Point, ROTC, OCS, Direct Commission).

Coupled with your ability to learn and adoption of the service/school values, it is really your character that is the primary determinant of the type and quality of leader you will become.

Response by SPC John Decker made Apr 1 at 2020 11:45 AM

2020-04-01T11:45:14-04:00

There are 4 officer sources. West Point, other Military Schools, ROTC, and OCS. In my opinion the ranking of best officers is in direct opposition to the order of this list. OCS are the best because they understand the needs and attitudes of the enlisted personnel under their command, while having the ability to interact with other officers. As you go through the other groups, you'll discover an increasing level of entitlement and lack of understanding.

Response by MAJ Geiter Dunn made Apr 1 at 2020 12:34 PM

2020-04-01T12:34:13-04:00

The best officers are those that understand leading the best soldiers to ever exist in history is a privilege and an honor that requires the officer to make demanding sacrifices for his soldiers' well-being every day. One who accepts that his NCOs have a completely different mission in regards to his soldiers, and gives them the time and the support that they need, without excuses or delay. One who accepts nothing but the best effort from each member of his unit while realizing and taking advantage of the fact that each of his soldiers has unique strengths and weaknesses. Those qualities are not unique to academy graduates.

Response by PV2 David Holder made Apr 1 at 2020 12:44 PM

2020-04-01T12:44:17-04:00

I thought they come from dedicated and experienced NCOs when they have enough sense to listen. Don't doubt the top, he's got a closet full of "been there done that" shirts.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2020 3:37 PM

2020-04-01T15:37:11-04:00

It is not possible to identify a single school or commissioning program that produces the highest quality officers. There are exceptional people from service academies, state schools, online colleges, and prior enlisted programs. There are also turds produced from every example above.

Generalizations make us stupid.