I'm honestly very hurt and feel abandoned at this point and I really need some help. Am I being retaliated against?

2020-09-22T21:52:13-04:00

Hello, I'm really looking for some help from some senior leaders. I'm about to go to DTS and Legal to try and get some help but I'd like some other points of view, please. I'm an E5, I've been in the 82nd for two years. I joined as a SF Candidate and I went to ASAP while I was there, failed, my chain of command decided not to chapter me. I was given additional treatment which I was successful with and completed.

Two months ago, I had an incident where I was intoxicated, had been fighting with my wife over depression and other issues for days and the situation escalated and a firearm was involved. My counselors have considered it "fleeting thoughts of suicidal ideation" or so to speak.

I was supposed to deploy about a week after this incident. I was enrolled in ASAP again since there was alcohol in my system. But my CoC is down range and pursuing any means possible to Chapter me. I have a good record aside from my previous ASAP history, no negative counselings, its been more than 12 months since my last successful ASAP session. They have even gone to the lengths of basically asking me to get my own medical records from WOMACK and hand them over so they can attempt to chapter me for my failure three years ago, which to me sounds like they're trying to avoild HIPAA since they can request it themselves.

They have not been involved in my treatment process, neither has my Rear D Commander really, although he is trying to protect me as much as possible. My 1SG has been calling here from Iraq everyday, every other day to try and get this chapter going from any angle possible. It's to the point where I literally feel like I'm starting to be retaliated against for my treatment, which is actually going great, to finally talk about my depression and seeing how it affected my drinking, completely influenced by COVID and being home all the time playing house wife.

I called my 1SG a week after the incident, evem though I was already under my Rear D Commander, because I felt like I owed him that, that he would want to know what happened from me. But he didn't even ask. He just asked me if I was okay, if I was getting treatment and if I needed anything further at the moment. He even said "you don't owe me shit" which I thought was really rude.

But overall, I feel like I've had zero support from my CoC, I feel as if I'm being targeted, like they're completely against me. I've been given no support aside from my Rear D Commander and my OPS NCO who have been fighting tooth and nail for me and slowing down this process as much as possible. I feel like this sets a poor precidents for soldiers who need help because they may be chaptered for past discretions. Any help or insite would be greatly appreciated because I'm tired of fighting, I'm angry and I'm hurt. Thank you guys for your time. Please, please feel free to ask any questions. I know there was a lot of information.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 9:54 PM

2020-09-22T21:54:10-04:00

I'm sorry, I meant TDS and I'm also planning on stopping by IG in the morning. I know there is a lot of information but please take the time to read it. Thank you.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 22 at 2020 10:10 PM

2020-09-22T22:10:06-04:00

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member They aren't picking on you. I have seen soldiers separated for all those things, just depends on which chapter they are going to use.

AR600-85 Army Substance Abuse Program Para 1-7
"(5) Soldiers who fail to participate adequately in or to respond successfully to rehabilitation will be processed for administrative separation and not be provided another opportunity for rehabilitation except under the most extraordi- nary circumstances, as determined by the clinical director (CD) in consultation with the unit commander. In addition to existing separation policies for alcohol or other drug abuse rehabilitation failures, Soldiers with a subsequent alcohol or drug-related incident of misconduct at any time during the 12-month period following successfulcompletion of the ASAP or during the 12-month period following removal from the program, for any reason, will be
processed for separation as an alcohol or drug abuse rehabilitation failure."

So exact timing will be key. Less stringent would be to Chapter you under a chapter 13 or 14 for a pattern of misconduct. especially since ASAP was used by the command to rehabilitate you. You are having issues with adhereing to a military life style. The fact a fire arm was involved in a domestic altercation can also get you flagged and barred for a Lautenberg Amendment, which prevents the military from issuing you a weapon...kind of tough to be a soldier when you can't access your assigned weapon. A civil or military misdemeanor conviction of domestic violence/battery.

Go to TDS. Find out what is what. I'm not asking you for clarifying information because it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what your chain of command does and what the CJA and TDS think.

AR635-200 paras:
1-16a
5-13
5-17
Ch10, don't know if you are being charged for the purpose of a Summary, Special, or General Court Martial. This could be where Lautenberg comes in.
Ch 13-2a
Ch14-2a
Ch14-12a
Ch14-12b

The command has wide discretion on how to separate you. Not sure what the medical records is all about. If the Commander is going to do a 5-13 or 5-17 they refer you to a mental health provider for the express purpose of evaluating you for Chapter.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 10:15 PM

2020-09-22T22:15:22-04:00

Two years ago you posted about being in SUDCC. You have been in ASAP and failed but was not chaptered at the time. two months ago you were drinking and a gun was involved. Are you being retaliated against - no. I am not sure why you feel abandoned. You have issues with alcohol that have not been resolved. You need to take responsibility for your mistakes. For yourself and your family, get the help that you need to get your life back on track. Provide us with an update on your progress. Good luck.

https://tricare.mil/CoveredServices/Mental/CrisisLines

Crisis Hotlines | TRICARE

Find information about who you can call in a crisis

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Sep 22 at 2020 10:27 PM

2020-09-22T22:27:00-04:00

Am retired now, but...
I wouldn’t deploy you either. Alcohol issues requiring command involvement on ? Occasions?
Physical Domestic with wife that “escalated” and involved a firearm?
They aren’t picking on you.
You need to take care of yourself, take the counseling to heart. If the home command is trying to take care of you and get you help, take the help.
Nobody here wants to see you fail. You have to take care of yourself if you want to continue to serve. Not preaching to you, but you have to admit to yourself that maybe you need some help?
It’s brave to reach out and open up. And it’s hard to come back from troubles, but you can.
Wish you the best. Hope to hear that something positive happens.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 11:25 PM

2020-09-22T23:25:17-04:00

I've read ASAP failure, alcoholic situations, domestic violence/abuse. What I haven't read is behavioral health assistance/mental health evaluation.

The very fact that the above listed situations SHOULD have gotten you chaptered right off the bat. The fact that your Command DIDN'T chapter you...that says a lot on what your command thought of you.

No wonder why you didn't deploy. You are an EXTREME safety risk for yourself and for those around you if you had gone down range. Your 1SG downrange is not being rude nor cold. You belong to the Rear Detachment. To which you are getting support from your CoC. Because, again, the Rear D IS your CoC. Other than asking you your status and asking the Rear D what the status is, there is nothing else your deployed 1SG can do.

To put it bluntly, you fucked up. Now, in order to fix the fuck up, you need to OWN UP TO the fuck up. That means getting help. Help with mental health. Help with addiction. Help with anger. You need counseling all the way around.

Your Command is not picking on you. What they are doing is delaying a process that should have been completed months ago. Just the domestic violence with a firearm alone is enough to kick you out. If you were arrested for domestic violence that involved a firearm....you don't even need to be tried and convicted....that arrest right there violates the Lautenberg Amendment. Which means you can no longer touch a weapon for the military. Which means your time in the military is nigh.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Sep 23 at 2020 12:00 AM

2020-09-23T00:00:19-04:00

There is a lot of great info for you to chew on from some great people below, so I will not add to that. I sincerely hope you get the help you and your family needs. What I would comment on is how the command is treating you and why you feel the way you do towards them, probably.

To you this issue is all encompassing. It eats up every waking moment and probably disrupts your sleep. And very rightfully so. But to your command who is overseas, you are one line on a long list of things they have to deal with everyday. Right now, you are not helping them accomplish their mission, so you get the requisite second level of treatment, not the first rate for the people who are there doing the job. Sucks, but there are only so many hours in a day and when you are overseas your focus becomes a lot closer.

So, how do you deal with this... try not to read things into every little conversation. Do what they need you to do, but more importantly make sure you get the help you need. What happens, will happen.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 1:04 AM

2020-09-23T01:04:16-04:00

No one is picking on you. You have listed at least 3 instances in which chaptering you would be appropriate. Diving down the hole of chaptering someone who is seeking treatment is a whole other discussion.

Do not victimize yourself in this situation. While you may be a "victim" of depression and abuse, you are not a victim at the hands of the Army. You have not abided by the rules set forth, and have been given additional chances, which you consequently did not abide by as well.

I sure hope you get the help you need. But this is not retaliation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 2:26 AM

2020-09-23T02:26:19-04:00

I agree with everyone else. Your chain of command did you a solid when you weren’t separated the first time. They are required to separate you when you fail to make progress in ASAP. You stated you were intoxicated as if it was just a minor circumstance, but being intoxicated after ASAP is a major issue. It shows your command that you willingly continue to make the same mistakes as before. You’re fighting with your spouse over depression, which is worsened with alcohol abuse, and a firearm is involved. I don’t know how you manage to continue to see yourself as a victim here. The worst part is the language you use to describe the incidents basically makes it sound like you are never at fault at any moment and you take ownership of none of the events. At no point do you say that you pulled a gun- a firearm was involved. You have no support from your CoC because they aren’t involved in your treatment, but treatment is a personal responsibility and they are deployed. Your 1SG inquires if you’re receiving treatment, but somehow that’s not enough support for you.

I’m in agreement with everyone else, and I think you are a time bomb waiting to explode.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 2:31 AM

2020-09-23T02:31:01-04:00

I apologize, I'm not trying to be rude with anyone. I understand why I didn't deploy, I understand that I have made a multitude of mistakes. I'm not seeking pity, nor victimizing myself. I'm just being honest with how I'm feeling when I say that I feel abandoned. Because my CoC has had zero contact with me. They have zero idea on how to complete this chapter, they have not been involved in my treatment process at all, in the least which it states in the regulation that they should be.

I'm not down playing the fact that they're down range, but if he has time to call, literally everyday or every other day to work on this chapter over the course of two months, I would expect that they would at least take the time to see what was going on with me.

Yes, the ASAP was a repeated process but only two incidents that were years apart in total. My CoC knew me for two months before deployment. They have zero idea of my past history or even my current history for that matter. I've just instantly become a number, no care, no feedback, no conversation, no idea of which chapter they are pursuing.

If they would bother to contact my counselor, they would know that I actually haven't struggled with alcohol for the past few years, I've had a servere positive lifestyle change until things started going downhill. The alcohol was simply a much larger factor of the one instance of depression that I had been dealing with. And yes, I struggled with COVID simply because of the down time, you get bored, you start drinking more, it literally happened to everyone in my unit.

As far as the regulation goes, I've read it multiple times tonight alone as I am on Staff Duty. I didn't have an incident within 12 months, I failed once, 3 years ago and I was retained. I've never had a negative counseling outside mental health. Even though the ASAP seems repetitive, they were two isolated incidents that were years apart for two completely different reasons, though connected through alcohol and I understand that. They have not been in contact with my provider once. And I would think that you can't say "that treatment has been unable to correct" if you're not aware of the treatment, whatsoever. If they are so busy overseas, why wouldn't he just leave it up to the Rear D Commanders discretion? I'm assuming because he's figured out that everyones stalling as much as possible. My unit is trying to get me to Division for my last 10 months to get me off the radar.

That's the last part of my confusion, I have 10 months left and he's dropping the hammer. I've never put anyone else in harms way, evem with this instance, I just touched the firearm, I didn't make any serious or rash decisions, I instantly put it down. I've never drank and drove, I've only put myself at risk. I guarentee you that he does have grounds to chapter me as it has been multiple attempts, no matter how you look at it, but why? Especially without even knowing half of how or why anything happened. And if it is so cut and dry about how he can chapter me, he can request my own mediacl records. He doesn't need me to get them from WOMACK and just hand them over, that just has HIPAA written all over it. Legal also has access. The way this process as a whole is going is very confusing to me.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude to anyone. I really appreciate ALL of the replies and support. But I did want to say that I have no issue owning up to what I did or why I'm not deploying. I'm just confused about this process and why it's such a fumble fuck. The only pattern of misconduct I have is my behavioral health history alone, which has been successful in many ways. But again, if it's that simple, why go back and chapter me for a failure three years ago, when it was a completely different CoC and an entirely different set of events.

Thank you, all of you.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 23 at 2020 6:38 AM

2020-09-23T06:38:32-04:00

Ok, so lets break this down into chunks.

-Your first visit to ASAP failed but the unit didn't pursue chaptering you.
-Two months ago there was a domestic call. You were deemed intoxicated and a firearm was involved. Back to ASAP and you are unable to deploy.
-You reference a previous visit to ASAP that was successful? So you have been there three times including the current time situation?

You need to get your current chain of command engaged and involved. You also need to verify who your current coc is. If the unit is split between remain behind element and forward element then you are no longer under the forward element and they are outside of your current chain of command. They don't have immediate influence over you but they will still have a level of influence considering the most recent incident happened under their watch. Any incident involving intoxication and a firearm is bad and you need to be prepared for the results of those consequences.

I don't think we as the RP community know all the details.

With multiple visits to ASAP under your belt failed and/or successful is besides the point. The leaders who are currently deployed see this as a pattern and may be part of the reason they are pursuing a chapter for you. Combined with an alcohol related incident that involved a firearm. That's not a good look and I could see where the leadership is coming from on that. They most likely see you getting multiple chances and not turning it around. Plus this last incident skylines the leadership directly and if they don't react they are liable. Especially with a firearm involved.

But, now that the unit is technically split into two both administratively and operationally you aren't directly under them for the time being so they will have a hard time pursuing this whie outside of that bubble. I encourage you to speak to legal, medical and anyone else you have on the list to get some details and answers.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Sep 23 at 2020 6:56 AM

2020-09-23T06:56:01-04:00

I was an Air Force Commander for six years. I would not deploy you and you would get chaptered. You had more than your share of chances in a short time. Take advantage of the counseling, any transition support, figure out what you want to do as a civilian because you are going to be one.
Alcohol, violence and a weapon. A lethal combination for a career. Sounds like you might have eventually made a good soldier, but I think you are done.

Response by SFC Clifford Brewer made Sep 23 at 2020 8:11 AM

2020-09-23T08:11:36-04:00

If your counselor was monitoring you he or she should have seen sign you need more intense care
and I don’t understand why you never ask..it’s not total your unit fault you flunk ASAP..what were you
thinking your unit should do when a firearm was involved..I am sorry I have no sympathy for you..fighting your wife and a firearm involved, WOW!! You got nerve to blame someone for your failure..if you trying to save yourself go to your counselor..

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Sep 23 at 2020 9:38 AM

2020-09-23T09:38:16-04:00

I feel for you Brother and I truly hope that you resolve your personal problems and live a long, enjoyable, fulfilling and healthy life. For now though, you've milked this Army thing long enough. Time to step aside and make room for the ones who have a demonstrable and verifiable desire to serve. Best of luck to you in your future endeavors.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Sep 23 at 2020 9:52 AM

2020-09-23T09:52:08-04:00

Hi Levi,
There are lots of people here with great experience sharing their thoughts to be helpful to you. If you think you could use someone else to talk to, please consider these resources if you haven't already. There's no reason to let your current struggles follow you through life. You're more important than your military career. Remember, your life will continue long after the Army so take care of yourself first.
https://www.rallypoint.com/emergency-support

RallyPoint - The Military Network

Find service members and veterans like you, discuss military life, and share professional opportunities on the largest military network.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 23 at 2020 10:53 AM

2020-09-23T10:53:48-04:00

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member No I don't think they are picking on you, for me, it appears they are trying to correct a mistake they previously made that has come back to haunt them.
From what you have posted, and this is not personal.... you should have been already separated.
After this latest incident, your CofC should absolutely seek separation. Should a senior HQ choose to disapprove and send it back so be it... But the company and BN CDRs should and looks like are doing their duty to process your separation IAW AR 600–85.

I would not confuse the administrative difficulties your company CofC is having due to being deployed and working with Rear D as evidence they are targeting or picking on you...the CofC is simply doing what they need to do to follow clear regulatory guidance in your case and perform their duties
"AR 600–85
(5) Soldiers who fail to participate adequately in or to respond successfully to rehabilitation will be processed for administrative separation and not be provided another opportunity for rehabilitation except under the most extraordinary circumstances, as determined by the clinical director (CD) in consultation with the unit commander. In addition to existing separation policies for alcohol or other drug abuse rehabilitation failures, Soldiers with a subsequent alcohol or drug-related incident of misconduct at any time during the 12-month period following successful completion of the ASAP or during the 12-month period following removal from the program, for any reason, will be processed for separation as an alcohol or drug abuse rehabilitation failure."

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 23 at 2020 12:21 PM

2020-09-23T12:21:49-04:00

Although I have sympathy for your addiction problem, I think you need to own up to the fact that this problem is yours. Own it. It is not your command's responsibility to fix you. Leave the forward deployed 1SG alone. I'm sure he has enough to deal with. If he was "rude" it is probably because he doesn't have time to coddle anyone. Especially if he is out in the zone.
Do your level best to get right, stay sober and maybe you can salvage the balance of your time in. Since you are rear element, take advantage of the free time and use your education benefits or hit the gym or something other than the bottle. Idle time is not your friend.
But most importantly, continue to get help. Addiction is real, but there is hope if you are willing to fight for it. Climb out of the pity hole and make something for yourself. FIGHT!!! At some point you were brave enough to opt for SF. Where is that guy? Find him.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 1:11 PM

2020-09-23T13:11:12-04:00

Your 1SG sounds like a stand up guy. He was more concerned for you and your well being. "You Don't Owe Me Shit" Sounds like him telling you to take care of yourself and don't worry about what he thinks.
Since you were Arrested/Apprehended he can not ask you about the incident as it would violate your right to council Which you were informed of by the MPs, on DD FM 3881, If he actually protecting you ask he could be called as a witness.
As MSG Private RallyPoint Member stated you messed up and there are multiple reasons to release you from the Army. Get the help you need from the Army now. Be Safe but your time in the Military is over. If you need to talk I will also listen

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Sep 23 at 2020 1:39 PM

2020-09-23T13:39:37-04:00

Everyone else pretty much said everything. I just have one thing to add. YOUR 1SG IS DEPLOYED. He is busy trying to keep his Soldiers alive. Leave him the f*** alone. You are on Rear D because your 1SG and CDR don't have time to deal with your shit while they are deployed. So they lefy you back - with a Rear D Commander and 1SG who DO have time (and willingness) to deal with your shit.

I am a former Rear D 1SG. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the down range 1SG and CO are being kept informed of your progress - both in the chapter process and in your treatment. I can also tell you that they are monitoring your situation and providing guidance to the Rear D. Leave them alone and let them concentrate on brining everyone home.

Stop being a spoiled narcissistic brat who only thinks about yourself.

Yes. This was harsh. It was meant to be.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 2:53 PM

2020-09-23T14:53:56-04:00

this isn't baseball and you don't get 3 strikes. You had one and they gave you a second chance and you didn't take advantage of it. Reality is you are more likely than not getting chaptered. They're not picking on you, it's just that from their POV you are a liability. Get some professional help to deal with your issues and hope all you get is a general discharge.

Response by Capt Edward Egan made Sep 24 at 2020 12:55 AM

2020-09-24T00:55:18-04:00

"I was given additional treatment which I was successful with and completed."
The treatment that you may be given is an aid, not an answer. You have a problem - it's your problem and your fix. You have to first recognize and admit that you're an alcoholic. That's the start. Then you take action. Help is available, but you have to use it and follow through.

PTSD started to kick my ass about 10 years after Vietnam and I tried to treat it with alcohol. That not only aggravated the problem but brought a brand new set of problems when I became emotionally and mentally addicted. I joined AA. It has worked. I got direction and support on how to handle things without using a crutch, and continue with AA even though I'm now sober 32 years. I had to grow up and accept life on life's terms, changing the things that I could and accepting the things that I couldn't change.

It's your responsibility to get sober and stay sober. No one can do it for you. People in AA can and will help, and it helps immensely, BUT IT'S UP TO YOU!

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Sep 24 at 2020 12:58 AM

2020-09-24T00:58:54-04:00

To much baggage. Ask for a humanitarian discharge and get on with life. Your not military material.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Sep 25 at 2020 7:45 PM

2020-09-25T19:45:35-04:00

Look, you are down and I'm sorry about that- but this is a bed of your making. You are a known alcoholic/have alcohol problem, since you went to ASAP once already. By regs, the Chain of Command could have simply tossed you to the curb. You showed them something and they kept you. You are quite lucky, normally the Deuce, drops you quick so you are not a liability. Now 1 yr later, drunk, waving a firearm around and a domestic dispute. That sounds and a mega fault waiting to open. You didn't say anything about seeking help for the depression, etc. The CoC is not required to lead you by the hand thru your personal problems. Seriously, as an NCO these actions cast a big damn black cloud on you/career. You do know that the reports of the incident have already come thru Div/Bde/BN and some ranking folks are asking you Co if He was drunk, when deciding to keep you, and giving serious advice. Bottom line son- it is your life and your career and you have made a hash of it, and the only one who could ever fix it is you. The target is the one you painted on you front and back and this last time outlined it in neon paint. Please, please get some help for these problems, before it reachs a point of no return.