I read "Soldiers (Airmen, Marines, etc) obey orders because they must, they follow because they want to. Is this so?

SFC Don Ward — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 23:01:06 -0400

A quote from Col William E. DuPuy

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 1 at 2019 12:14 AM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 00:14:24 -0400

We follow orders because it brings order to chaos. We only refuse illegal orders. Like or not has nothing to do with it. It is the kernel of all we do.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 1 at 2019 2:24 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 02:24:30 -0400

I wouldn't begin to second guess him, I've read a good deal of his material, however, you obey, as mentioned also here, all but the most stupidly blatant improper instruction, because that's what you agreed to do, and to help your country and its allies, and for no other reason, period...that, at least is the way I view the matter...God knows, I've made more mistakes than I can count, screwed up in more ways than are humanly calculable, had to have that reality and made life infinitely harder on my than was needed, needed to have my head virtually slammed into concrete pavement to get that point across, I've seen a lot of things, often totally unnecessary, due to my own sheer ineptitude because I was so focused on my own ambitions, that I lost sight of what I was there for, and what it actually meant, so, as I'd said, while I clearly wouldn't begin to second guess him, certainly, that, in any event, is my conclusion after three years Army ROTC, four years USAF OTS and active duty, and a while slew of historical reading on related subject matter, you obey because it's what you agreed to, and because, other than blatantly wrong stuff, which I never saw personally, not once, only have read about, which happens very rarely historically, I've observed, it's just simply the right thing to do, period, QED, the end, OK?

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jul 1 at 2019 7:41 AM

SSG Brian G. — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 07:41:10 -0400

Real soldier etc.,... the fallacy begins.
Orders are given. Then they hit the military brain. It runs its cycle and determines if the order is valid or it conflicts somehow. I don't WANT to drop and knock out 50. I do so however because the order is lawful and there is no legitimate reason not to. I don't want to fallout of a bed at 0530 for PT formation at 0555 but I do so because I must. Want plays no part in the decision to follow orders.

Orders are followed that are legal, illegal ones are questioned and disobeyed or reluctantly followed.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Jul 1 at 2019 8:24 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 08:24:10 -0400

Might be overthinking it. At the end of the day, it's a job-and like any other, if you want to keep it, let alone advance, you "play by the house rules"...whether you like it, or not. If someone orders something that goes beyond the pale... o.k., we're all masters of our own souls, and I think it's safe to say no one's going to commit a crime (if they don't want to anyway) just because someone told them to.

Response by MSG Gary Eckert made Jul 1 at 2019 8:33 AM

MSG Gary Eckert — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 08:33:19 -0400

This is sort of like driving through a school zone. Do you slow to the lower speed limit because there is speed limit sign that you can be penalized for exceeding or absent the new speed limit sign (and the penalty for speeding), would seeing a school zone sign cause you slow because you understand the dangers of the addition of children to the equation. Most of us, I think, if we are being honest, slow down to avoid breaking the speed limit law. I think the difference between obeying orders and following a someone, Dupay is referencinng, Soldiers that follow lawful orders to avoid the consequences have significantly less buy-in than those that follow someone because they believe in them.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jul 1 at 2019 11:34 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 11:34:07 -0400

I would generally agree. There's a difference among compliance, vicious compliance, and eagerness. Leaders who use only positional leadership, "you are ordered to," will get compliance. Leaders who overuse positional leadership, "do this or I'll UCMJ you," will sometimes get what I call vicious compliance. Vicious or retributional compliance is carrying out your the leader's orders exactly, to the letter, without any question or judgement. Additionally refusing to take initiative or do almost anything without direction because of real or imagined fear of prosecution. Finally there's eagerness to execute the mission, take the initiative, and achieve excellence at every level of the organization. That's the product of good leadership.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2019 11:54 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 11:54:56 -0400

I seem to recall in the oath of enlistment (and later the commissioning oath) "to follow all orders" including those of immediate superiors. Now, how can one not follow should they not "want to"? Of course it goes without saying that a good lead INSPIRES his/her troops in order that the troops willingly follow. This method is so much better than beating the troops down so they might follow out of fear. Respect is earned by leaders and followers. Mutual respect makes a follower more willing to follow.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2019 1:43 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 13:43:14 -0400

We follow orders because that’s what we were trained to do. But a good leader relays those orders with the caveat of buy-in, on a foundation of why following those orders is necessary. Your subordinates will follow orders better when they recognize a stake in the objectives.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2019 10:26 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:26:23 -0400

When you take out your paraphrasing/adlib the passage takes a different meaning. It isn't about orders but rather the person giving the orders. "Another way to put it is this: troops obey because they must; they follow because they want to. They obey superiors; they follow leaders. The obvious is worth stating: an officer must be capable of being both a superior and a leader". So to answer your question, yes this is most exactly true when properly quoted. I will be reading more of his work, thank you for bringing him up.

Response by Cpl Joseph Flanigan made Jul 2 at 2019 12:04 AM

Cpl Joseph Flanigan — Tue, 02 Jul 2019 00:04:35 -0400

Do soldiers obey orders because they must or because they want to?

One of the earliest expression of rational thought begins when the person is a child. If you ever saw a child refuse to eat, that refusal is rational thought. An adult may not consider the child's choice as rational, but from the child's perspective, the child uses free will to choose. Usually, something occurs to change need and the child will want to eat. The need/want paradigm is built into the mind and its the same for all people of all ages. Life skill changes the paradigm by the accumulation of permission-constraint conditions reflected as behavior. By necessity, military training implants the permission-constraint conditions into specific choices for must-do-will-do behavior. While leadership determines the needs of the command, the want-to follows orders is the soldier's will-do choice.

Grip expressions like, "If I must, I will do it if I have to." are concessions for want-to.
A soldier who wants-to disobey a lawful order is packed with a soldier's permission/constraint choices. Social resolution may belong to the court.