If a solder's room is dirty and he's on leave, can the chain of command box his personal items up as punishment?

2016-05-09T16:36:13-04:00

SM is currently on leave and unfortunately left his room a little dirty. It the chain of command authorized to go in his room and box up all his personal items while he's gone or is there a certain way they can? Just curious for the soldier

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 4:40 PM

2016-05-09T16:40:27-04:00

Sounds like what a parent would do not a leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-05-09T16:41:19-04:00

No due to the fact that the soldier could see, he had personal items stolen and it would start a hearsay.

Response by SGT Richard H. made May 9 at 2016 4:46 PM

2016-05-09T16:46:15-04:00

Just cover his door in crime scene tape and a note to come and see you.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 9 at 2016 4:50 PM

2016-05-09T16:50:07-04:00

1: The chain of command does not "punish' The chain of command may decide that for an observed violation of UCMJ or established (meaning written and common to all) policy that actions under NJP are warranted. The commander conveniing the ART15 or court martial hearing after deciding the guilt of the SM, may then elect to impose punishment.
2: If there is personal property left unsecured not IAW an established policy (say for SM on leave), then sure the CDR can direct a team conduct an inventory, and secure the property. That is not punishment (well maybe on the team tasked it would be) Supply Sgt, PSG and PL, would commonly be tasked with that duty. More so as it was thier job to inspect the SM and his room before he departed on leave.
But that is Not "punishment", though it may come later in response to the SM not cleaning the space and securing property before going on leave IAW established policy.
3: What would the desired outcome and or goal be of this "boxing up" the Sm's property... How will that correct the issue observed?
if it is a single SM room, no common shared space and I did not need the room for another SM. I would have the platoon leadership document the concern, lock up and await the SM's return. Where there would be some discussion, retraining and or NJP to correct the issue.. and the platoon NCO's would get to enjoy the bulk of the work to facilitate that planning, training and execution as they FAILED to supervise and enforce the policy and procedures.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 4:55 PM

2016-05-09T16:55:38-04:00

Don't soldiers who take leave, and are not planning on residing in the barracks during leave, have to have their personal items inventoried and secured prior to leaving? I know that was the policy in my unit. I am curious how the SM ended up in this position.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-05-09T17:01:33-04:00

Why in hell would you do that? This is the kind of shit that takes good Marines or soldiers and forces them out. Where is the senior enlisted leadership?

Response by CPT John Sheridan made May 9 at 2016 5:05 PM

2016-05-09T17:05:13-04:00

For security, you can inventory, with a witness, items unsecured and secure them in the Supply Room or wherever your unit would lock it up. That's not punishment. UCMJ may be appropriate for violating orders. Other than that, I would leave his stuff alone.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 9 at 2016 5:15 PM

2016-05-09T17:15:10-04:00

Punishment of Servicemembers is a FORMAL process as defined under the UCMJ.

While on Leave, he's on his time, not the governments'. It's understandable that room inspections are still going on, however, we must remember the purpose of the inspection as well. You used the phrase "a little dirty." It's something that can be resolved when he gets back via informal process.

Boxing up belongings would need to serve a specific purpose. Unless that can be defined, as in "Make the dwelling sanitary enough to live in" it's hard to justify from a leadership standpoint.

SGM Erik Marquez notes the purpose of securing the property, which is completely reasonable. I would however point out that a (unshared) room is secure. I agree wholeheartedly with his post and merely provide that as a caveat.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 9 at 2016 5:36 PM

2016-05-09T17:36:13-04:00

I would give the young man or woman till the end of the day to clean up the mess. Then have do it all over again by the following weekend. I'm being nice.

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made May 9 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-05-09T18:56:26-04:00

First off his PLT SGT should have inspect it before he left

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made May 9 at 2016 7:02 PM

2016-05-09T19:02:05-04:00

That's not how to teach this soldier. Your leadership will also be in question. I've known NCO's that got arrested for theft trying what your talking about. And those NCO's didn't steal anything. They still got charged.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made May 9 at 2016 8:01 PM

2016-05-09T20:01:32-04:00

The only reason to disturb a SMs property is because it is not secured. There isn't a lot of information on exactly what his billeting situation is. There should be a standard proceedure for personel when you go on leave. All of your personal belongings should be secured in a locker and or wardrobe. If there is a valid concern about theft his command could inventory and box up his belongings and store them until his return.

Response by CPL J Sannizzaro made May 9 at 2016 8:05 PM

2016-05-09T20:05:31-04:00

There are a million answers to this one and two million opinions. Mine is make you point with as little effort and waves as possible. Harder heads require bigger waves. You know your soldiers, better than those that don't have daily contact. Erasure you COC then handle it.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made May 9 at 2016 9:00 PM

2016-05-09T21:00:39-04:00

I question this command for not having done an inspection of said soldier's room before he left. And why are you trying to make issues now, when the horse has left the barn? If you let someone leave without inspecting their quarters before hand, that's your bad. Boxing his property would be tacky, spiteful and create a glaring spotlight on the command's lack of forethought.
The command needs to get its act together, not the soldier.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made May 9 at 2016 9:41 PM

2016-05-09T21:41:42-04:00

Health and Welfare Inspections

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-05-09T23:22:14-04:00

That's a new one on me.

Response by SSG Jay OConnor made May 10 at 2016 5:02 AM

2016-05-10T05:02:39-04:00

First off, I would think the only people that would do that are either a brand new power hungry E-5 or toxic leadership. Secondly, it would open it up to accusations of thievery if the soldier was not present. Besides, a little messy is one thing. A pigstye is a whole different ballgame. Without being there is a little hard to judge the level of corrective action needed, if any.

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made May 10 at 2016 6:04 AM

2016-05-10T06:04:31-04:00

First off, SM is on "Leave"? Then HTF did he get on Leave w/o an NCO clearing his room? It had to have been cleared before he left, so it SHOULD NOT effect the soldier as the NCO cleared the room & let him take his leave. If that's not how it's done now, then that's just stupid. Because you never know what's going to come your way, it should always be "cleared" w/ an NCO/PSgt/PL. Next, since when do SM's get private rooms? Always had a roommate. And if so, the roommate should be a Bro & fix whatever the eff'up is, as he is the one still in the room come inspection time. It's most likely his shit anyway.

JMO...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 7:18 AM

2016-05-10T07:18:32-04:00

SGT(P) Daniel McBride That is downright petty and condescending. Figures though, when a member's own private living area for a museum for the unit. Perhaps, a signed leave form on the door to the room. If I were a 1Sgt, I would protect my troops against unwarranted harassment. just saying... was a hot topic for me. Our Commander in Wx said he would take a gander but not near as much as the Maintenance SQ had done.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made May 10 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-05-10T07:42:29-04:00

The question should be: where have the Soldier's leadership been?

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made May 10 at 2016 8:23 AM

2016-05-10T08:23:51-04:00

Seriously? How would you feel if someone boxed up all of your personal items because they thought your quarters were dirty. To me, this seems like stepping over the line. Tell him to clean up his quarters, counsel him, call him back from leave if it is just that important, but leave his personal property alone.

Response by SPC Clifton Peacock made May 10 at 2016 9:07 AM

2016-05-10T09:07:18-04:00

He should've passed a room inspection before being allowed to go on leave.

Response by A1C Stanley Kolakowski made May 10 at 2016 9:16 AM

2016-05-10T09:16:22-04:00

Can they? Most likely: yes.
Should they? Now that's the bigger question - and a lot harder to answer based on the information provided. Such as:
How dirty is a "little" dirty, and how long as said SM been on leave? If SM's been gone for 2 weeks and there's 2 weeks of dust, that's no reason to box up his stuffs and throw him to the wolves. If there is a safety hazard, then "obviously" a professional boxing up of items (Barracks Officer(s), MP, Legal) and application of the appropriate cleanings is necessary.

Then, an inquiry would need to be performed to see what happens next. I remember on at least one of my leaves and my TDY, I found "neighbors" I could trust to access my room and give it a once over at least once a week (dusting/vacuuming) - so that if there was an inspection my space would look "cared for". As others have said, was a "pre-departure" inspection performed to ensure that the SM did not leave a safety hazard? Things like this would help determine who and where to place the blame...

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 12:31 PM

2016-05-10T12:31:07-04:00

No.. I completely disagree. Maybe they should approve soldiers leave a couple weeks before not the day leave starts. That's called a reindeer game. That soldier is someone you rely on. Their work ethic is directly related to your relationship with them. If you want to make his life hell and be part of the problem go ahead. That soldier doesn't have to be in the Army or live in the barracks yet he chose too. Make him regret his decisions to do the right thing that's on you. The idea is for you to be a professional. This could almost be a personal attack. I hope having your room inspected counts too. You probably have your own housing. Would your housing pass an inspection right now? I guarantee the trash needs to be taken out. However joes are arriving to units having never driven a Humvee so new army right? If I was said Joe and this happened to me this is the order that things would happen. IG phone call, legal phone call, magically a hand receipt with all the things I own would appear. All things that are not on that list I would be coming after the chain of command to have returned or paid for. I wouldn't mess with joes like that.

Response by SFC(P) John McLaughlin made May 10 at 2016 1:09 PM

2016-05-10T13:09:52-04:00

Well since the barracks are under private contractors like housing is, I would slam him with counseling statements on health and welfare for everyday he is gone.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-05-10T13:40:09-04:00

Why go thru all of that for a dirty room?? If he is due to be back in a few days, leave a note in his room to have him see someone within his chain about why he left the room in such a state before leaving. Does he have a history of failing room inspections? If not, then handle this with the least amount of humiliation for the troop but ensure that he is aware of why this shouldn't continue to happen: case closed.

Response by SSG Joe Ann Bess made May 10 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-05-10T13:46:32-04:00

My question to that question, why would a soldier with pride leave a room like that, back in the day inspection ready all the time. HOOAH

Response by SGT Kevin McCourt made May 10 at 2016 3:41 PM

2016-05-10T15:41:55-04:00

It sounds like failure on the squad leaders part to let the SM go on leave with a trashed room. No, you can not box up his personal items as punishment.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 10 at 2016 3:44 PM

2016-05-10T15:44:31-04:00

Define "a little dirty".

Response by SSG David McPherson made May 10 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-05-10T21:27:03-04:00

It goes to show that his NCO's are conducting their barracks checks to insure he is not living like a slob, you as his NCO failed him by not conducting the checks prior to the chain of command doing a health and welfare

Response by PV2 Violet Case made May 11 at 2016 6:07 AM

2016-05-11T06:07:23-04:00

I can not say what the rules are today. But I can add that I was a truck driver in Germany driving the 2000D Internationals while in 1979 and was never told how many civilian shoes I could have under my bed. I was only told my room and everything was to be clean, polished, dusted ect...And they always were starched also to almost stand up for uniforms. I was on the road during an inspection and they boxed up part of my civilian shoes and put them in the attic and when I got back was told if I wanted to make my choice of what to keep out they would take me up to get them exchanged. And that was with a clean room and not on leave even.

Response by SGT Allen Brunner made May 11 at 2016 2:01 PM

2016-05-11T14:01:34-04:00

While I didn't tolerate a dirty barracks room, I also knew that the troops were going to enjoy themselves before returning to duty. If he had a roommate then clean up the room without touching his roommates stuff, if he is in a room by himself, no offense but why was the room opened if you knew he was gone, I mean if it was a one room barracks and the person is on leave the room never should have been opened. the room should have been inspected prior to the individual going on leave, not waiting until he/she was gone to do it. The Chain of Command needs to fix that policy fast.

Response by SSgt Suellyn Nuckolls made May 12 at 2016 11:23 AM

2016-05-12T11:23:31-04:00

OK was his room locked if so they had no right in doing that.

Response by CPL Tommy Santos made May 12 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-05-12T11:28:11-04:00

CoC? I don't think Commissioned Officers should handle this, until the NCO Channel has been utilized. Two opinions:

1) Do not involve IG
2) If it's a direct superior, NCO "playing" fuck-fuck games, in good taste, as in having a good relationship with the SM, then let it happen.

Response by SGT Michael Sonmor made May 12 at 2016 12:41 PM

2016-05-12T12:41:36-04:00

A sm room needs to be inspection ready at all times. That's called discipline. That's a leadership failure. I also think the Squad Leader and Plt Sgt. need some corrective training. I've spent a few weekends making sure my troops rooms are clean. They didn't need to be as good as my room, but they should be clean.

Response by MAJ Michael Roe made May 12 at 2016 12:58 PM

2016-05-12T12:58:01-04:00

So I guess we don't move them to the quad in their shelter half anymore?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 2:18 PM

2016-05-12T14:18:13-04:00

I hope they conducted an inventory of all his stuff.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-05-12T15:57:16-04:00

With the information I have it sounds as if the command is being overbearing. However there are a million sides to every story. When I was on active duty I lived In the barracks. I thought it was utterly ridiculous how command was not held to the same standard. If I went to their off post housing I guarantee I would have found a dependa infested pigsty, but there was no accountability for them, yet they could come into my living space, my barracks room under the pretense of maintaining standards. I sincerely think it was more of a kick the dog syndrome where leaders would fuck with e4 and below for no rational reason. Health and welfare makes perfect sense. We've all seen that fucktard that can't wipe his own ass that needs to be checked on for his own well being.

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made May 12 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-05-12T16:33:34-04:00

I remember this exact thing happening to me when I was a PFC. I went on leave and left my room dirty. When I got back, there was a "surprise" room inspection, which of course I wasn't ready for. The next thing I know, my NCO had me take everything out of my room piece by piece and then put it all back up piece by piece into a nice, orderly manner. My room was never messy after that.

Response by SrA Chris Livingston made May 12 at 2016 7:21 PM

2016-05-12T19:21:49-04:00

Must be an ARMY thing. Never remember having room inspections as a condition for getting leave approval. Yes room needed to be in order all the time and we knew when weekly inspections were. Most of the time was always a two man room with at least one in the room responsible for common property appearance, if one was gone or working a different shift, then the other was responsible for his specific items. If one was on leave and a discrepancy was noted on "his" specific items he would know about it when he got back and talked to about it as needed. Most of the time we were assumed to be adults until we showed otherwise.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 9:46 PM

2016-05-12T21:46:15-04:00

Unfortunately. Lmao. S***bag. Too many whiney, cat like Soldiers these days. NCO's have lost their authority to correctively train the junior enlisted. Result: no discipline. CSM's and 1SG's do not conduct enough barracks inspections. Parking lots filled with trash. Hallways filled with dirt and trash. Stairwells filled with cig butts and beer bottles. Literally no discipline.

Response by SFC Timothy Rose made May 13 at 2016 6:03 AM

2016-05-13T06:03:54-04:00

There may be a lot more to this story then what is said above. I don't agree with what they did, but the way the rules stand I would need to know why. Don't think they would do it because his room was a little messy. As someone who spent almost half his career as a single soldier I still hate the idea that someone could come into my living space and tell me how I could keep it. I always did well on inspections but despised the fact that as a Jr NCO I had room inspections while lower enlisted lived off post with their family did not. Might be time for the Army to re-think this issue. I know a lot may not agree with me, but we need to treat men like men. Then we would not need to have this discussion.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 6:55 AM

2016-05-13T06:55:42-04:00

Room has to be inspection ready, so that is a failure if it is unsat but coc does not have the authority to box anything up unless the member is deserted or deceased I think.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-05-13T21:53:57-04:00

I always tell my soldiers I expect their room to look lived in. That is thier home. I'm not going to expect inspection ready quality every day. If it's in complete disarray or a health issue then you have to do something.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 6:39 PM

2016-05-15T18:39:08-04:00

There are a million of other ways of making a service member pay for their mistake. Why waste time, resources, and venturing into risky action - when you can just have him Oki-field day (that's when you take absolutely every single furniture and personal belonging out of the room and clean absolutely everything - it's the ultimate field day) his room upon return?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 5:27 PM

2016-05-16T17:27:28-04:00

Keep the door shut

Response by SGT Brian Gibbs made May 19 at 2016 6:09 PM

2016-05-19T18:09:18-04:00

When I was stationed at Ford Hood back in 2001 this happened and the items were boxed up and the soldiers was made to sleep in the HQ on a cot. His job was to make sure the HQ was cleaned every morning and every night for 30 days. Soldier was then allowed back into the barracks and was only allowed to have non personal items for another 30 days. I think the point was made. As a lower enlisted I was angry at this but I became a leader later I understood that even though we are babysitters we still have to teach and train troops from time to time the things that their parents didn't. As I used to say, I'm here to fix what your parents didn't do to not only make you a better soldier, but to make you a better person.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 12:47 PM

2016-05-25T12:47:04-04:00

Military needs leaders. Not parents.

Response by MAJ L. Nicholas Smith made May 26 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-05-26T15:25:02-04:00

Band the room if possible until he returns. Then have said soldier take it all outside and set a tent up where he can live until he learns to maintain his room to standard.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 6:36 PM

2016-06-01T18:36:13-04:00

How many times have we been on leave and left our house or barracks room a little dirty? We're all guilty of it at some point in our military careers. Packing up the Soldiers property doesn't fit the crime due to room not clean, but blasting a loud radio system in the barracks warrant a packing. But the SM should have provided the chain of command a copy of high dollar value inventory sheet prior to leave just in case something did come up missing.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Jun 3 at 2016 11:35 AM

2016-06-03T11:35:55-04:00

I see no reason not. The "room" is owned by the government, and such an action could simply be justified, for SOP, and safety and health reasons. The soldier's "stuff" is only being "secured", not confiscated or anything, so I don't view this as punishment or a prejudicial action. You're supposed to have your stuff secure , organized and tidy anyway by every unit SOP I ever knew, or is this some "new army" thing, soldiers can leave their area a mess when on leave. If a Top/Smash does a walk-through, is this "OK"? There is some real justification there, or it used to be. Been there , had to do exactly that.

Response by SGT James Hammons made Aug 19 at 2016 10:40 PM

2016-08-19T22:40:41-04:00

YES. Everything you do in the military has a reason, a purpose. Discipline and attention to details make a good soldier. Of course when I was in a soldier did not go on leave if the barracks was not squared away.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2017 11:12 AM

2017-03-27T11:12:39-04:00

Paragraph 5 AR 27-10 says that within CONUS, if property is issued as a private space, only DPW personnel are allowed to enter without permission, unless given permission from post CO. Policy letters usually find a way around this. I'd secure the items myself, and tell muy platoon sergeant, "I got this". He immediately knows that I'll handle the soldier at the squad level with sweat and tears as soon as they come back.

Response by SGT Joseph Miller made Apr 16 at 2017 5:10 AM

2017-04-16T05:10:18-04:00

SGT Daniel McBride the answer to your question is yes the chain of command can box everything up in a soldiers barracks room, all it requires is two NCO's to do a complete inventory of the room and I mean complete so as to cover the COC if a soldier says something is missing he has no recourse. So if there is 3 paperclips in the desk drawer then you put 3 paperclips on the inventory sheet. I would also have both NCO's do a sworn statement on why and what you did . Barracks do not belong to the soldier they belong to the 1SG who allows them to stay there. Now my only question as I've given you what you can legally do as I was a Military Police Officer , my only question is why? What will this accomplish? Just more paperwork for the COC and if the soldier comes back and he's a guardhouse lawyer and decides to say "I had $100 dollars in my dresser drawer and it's now gone, well then the commander has to start a 15/6 investigation and appoint an investigating officer and even though you all know it's bullshit, it makes the NCO's who did the inventories lives hard, is it worth the chance of all that? My advise is seal the room with a padlock or call for a work order and change the door lock and put a note on the door to report to the 1SG office upon his return or better yet pull his damn leave and order him back and take care of his nasty behind then.

Response by Heather Chruscinski made Jan 9 at 2018 10:45 AM

2018-01-09T10:45:31-05:00

can you get kicked if you dont clean your room a few times?

Response by SMSgt Kevin Bishop made Dec 28 at 2018 6:12 PM

2018-12-28T18:12:24-05:00

This kind of thing can sour a SM on their "leadership." It did me. Once, I had an early morning flight. After I was done, I had to quickly change to my regular duty and report to my section. A bit later, I was summoned to remove the "Fire Hazard" clutter from my room. The hazard? A Nomex flight suit laying on my bunk. These things can be done but one must ensure that they are warranted. Lost a lot of respect for those over me that day.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Dec 28 at 2018 9:02 PM

2018-12-28T21:02:31-05:00

If his wall unit is unsecured, items that can easily be pocketed are left out, then it's done for security reasons. I've seen it done during room inspections.

Response by PO2 Seth Carron made Jan 1 at 2020 1:19 PM

2020-01-01T13:19:15-05:00

So this first part is mostly rhetorical, but define a little dirty. Did he forget to take his trash out before leaving, or does it look like someone set off a bomb in his room? Because if it's a full trash can, take the trash out, and tell the SM to take care of things next time. If his room is a complete disaster, then yea, probably ought to box his stuff up till he gets back.

Response by Capt Bob Soldner made Jan 1 at 2020 3:03 PM

2020-01-01T15:03:13-05:00

I've been retired for almost 50 years now and know that things change. Back in the day, we held "Health & Comfort" inspections to ensure individuals did not slide down into a situation like that described.these were held by the senior SNCO for whom the individuals worked for.

Response by SN Mike Duffy made Apr 11 at 2020 4:42 PM

2020-04-11T16:42:50-04:00

Gear adrift is a gift.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2020 10:02 AM

2020-04-12T10:02:28-04:00

You can do that if the soldier is incapacitated and / or deceased. You can’t do it to punish someone. And it had to be done with the approval of the commander and it had to be ran by an OIC with the help of supply. Psgs or sl etc cannot do it

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2020 10:04 AM

2020-04-12T10:04:50-04:00

it Also depends on how access was gained to that room while the soldier was gone. You can’t as a barracks manager just open whatever room you want. You need approval from the chain

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2020 7:15 AM

2020-04-13T07:15:15-04:00

Search and Seizure (which is essentially what you are advocating) has specific requirements and ramifications. Only a Commander (or acting commander), military judge or military magistrate can authorize the above. Search and Seizure requires you to have probable cause with few exceptions and requires a chain of custody. Do you want that much trouble? Just wait until the person returns and then have the NCO/Sr.NCO handle it. You don't want to get in a situation where you are accused of an illegal search and seizure (because you didn't go through the commander, military Judge or military Magistrate).