If abortion is made illegal, should the women who get them be punished?

2016-04-05T01:09:41-04:00

After Trump stated that the woman should be punished for getting an illegal abortion, anti-abortion groups quickly criticized him for that. They said only the doctors should be held responsible. But if abortion is made illegal because it's considered murder, how can only the doctor be charged? If a woman pays someone to kill her 1 year old, they don't just charge the killer. See my response below for more discussion

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 1:15 AM

2016-04-05T01:15:39-04:00

I don't support the view that fertilized eggs are people with constitutional rights; nor do I think abortions should be illegal. But their are people whose position is that starting at fertilization, that egg is a human being and getting an abortion is murdering it. My question though, is if you do believe that an abortion is murdering a human life, then how can your position be that the woman who pays the doctor to commit the murder is not guilty of accessory to murder, and should be held criminally liable along with the doctor? If a woman pays someone to kill any child after birth, she would be a criminal.

It seems to me this is a contradiction in the belief at best, and at worst it is a hypocritical attempt to hide the real intent from anti abortion bills by not scaring the women away and putting all the blame on the doctor. But if a doctor is committing murder, and the woman sought him out and paid him to do it, how can the woman not be? It seems to me the antiabortion groups were upset with Trump for spilling the beans on what the logical conclusion of their position really is. Ted Cruz immediately said that there should be no punishment for the woman who has an abortion, yet he is against abortion even in cases of rape, because it's killing another human being. Those two positions seem diametrically opposed to me.

NOTE: after seeing initial responses, I may not have made my question clear. I didn't want to rehash the "when is life life" or "should abortion be legal" debate. Rather, granting the republican platform position that abortions should be made illegal, and all the repub candidates saying they will appoint SCOTUS judges who want to overturn Roe v Wade and allow states to make abortions illegal again, should the women who have abortions be criminally liable for the death of the fetus? Major antiabortion groups and the leading repub candidates say no. But if an abortion is illegal because it's murder, then how can the women not be guilty of contributing to that murder? How could only the doctor face charges? That idea seems incongruous to me, and strikes me as a hypocritical position to try and make an abortion ban more acceptable.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 5 at 2016 2:41 AM

2016-04-05T02:41:04-04:00

I personally believe that any Law should have an expiration date. Perhaps no more than twenty years. One year before that expiration, the appropriate level legislature that wrote it, should then have to vote to keep it or let it (and all accompanying regulations) expire. If someone wants it to be eternal, put it through the same process as a Constitutional amendment.

Last time I did a google check for "stupid laws", one State, I believe my State (Michigan) had a law on the books that made it illegal for a woman to ride a boys bicycle. I'm sure the state legislature meant well, but stooooopid law.

But if a law is on the books it should be enforced. I like black and white, leave gray to a judge who will be presented evidence specific to the case, that the legislature may not have foreseen. If there is a conviction, the punishment should be applied.

As far as I know, the vast majority of abortions are legal, some may not be. If you've got a problem with that, one way or the other, within the law (general sense) work to change the law (specific sense) or accept that that is the law. I don't care if it is about gender acceptable bicycle riding or abortions.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 5:58 AM

2016-04-05T05:58:35-04:00

Chris Matthews is such a scumbag, and I'm amazed Trump agreed to do an interview or town hall with him, doubly amazed that he went in so unprepared. He was pressured to give a concrete answer to a question about a hypothetical punishment under a hypothetical law, and he shouldn't have taken the bait.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:43 AM

2016-04-05T06:43:47-04:00

also arrest the man who can't keep it in his pants

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:47 AM

2016-04-05T06:47:34-04:00

Why have a law when breaking it it has no consequences?

Oh, wait, we already have quite a dew don't we?

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Apr 5 at 2016 6:48 AM

2016-04-05T06:48:46-04:00

There are also many instances where someone will kill a pregnant woman and the murderer will be charged with two counts. One for the mother, one for the unborn child. The question for our society really is coming down to who says the child is a child and who says it is an unprotected cell mass not worthy of a single right.

If the mother wanted the child it gets protected up to an including a murder charge for an offender. If the mother doesn't want the child then killing it is fine up to and including partial both abortion in some states. This is a massive inconsistency in our laws based upon political calculation, not law. Two unborn children, one protected, one not worthy. It is a glaring inconsistency.

I tend to agree with you that if we made abortion ILLEGAL then illegal means exactly that, illegal. That was essentially the case until 1973 when Row v Wade changed the law of the land without a single piece of legislation being passed.

The question would then become one of punishment for the breaking of the law. Would Doctors. licensed by the state, carry more responsibility in the willful taking of a human life? More than likely. Does that mean the woman would escapee any punishment? It would seem hypocritical to hold the doctor accountable and not the woman (and man if he is involved) as well.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Apr 5 at 2016 7:20 AM

2016-04-05T07:20:44-04:00

LTC Private RallyPoint Member Not sure why you got the down vote. I agree. IF abortion was made illegal and a woman paid a doctor to do one under cover she did the same thing as paying someone to murder a 1 year old. Its not ever going to happen but I do agree. both should face punishment. I will even share my own opinion. Late Term abortions are murder when a baby is able to survive if delivered. Yes life starts with a heart beat. Yes HRC pissed the hard nose abortion supporters off when she called it a baby, because the only way they survive this debate is to make sure they call it a thing rather than what it really is...A Living Baby. Ever see the maturity shirts that have an arrow pointing down that say Baby On Board? I know your not a fan of HRC. Nor Trump. I have to agree with you. Trump, HRC, Sanders and Cruz aren't worth the water it would take to put them out if they where on fire and the world would be a better place without goons like those four. Just sorry that people are so fooled by those dipsticks.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Apr 5 at 2016 7:21 AM

2016-04-05T07:21:45-04:00

there I gave you an up vote so at least your back to even...LOL you didn't say anything that is a lie or deserved the down vote.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-04-05T07:29:06-04:00

one must understand, there is a different between pro-life and anti-abortion. For anti-abortion seek to enact law to make abortion illegal (pro-life too), but anti-abortion is law centralized ideology. Pro-life, is life as the center. For the mother herself is also a life. The only cure for abortion is not law itself, it is love. the love of life, the lack of love is what cause the abortion to happen. That is the reason why pro-life standing in front of the abortion clinic to offer help, and also why anti-abortion protest in front of the clinic instead.

"If a woman pays someone to kill her 1 year old, they don't just charge the killer.", that is what you will not understand, the babies in the wombs, are absolutely depend on the mothers. At that stage, some pro-choice and pro-abortion see the mothers are enslaved by the babies. No amount of laws can convince them that is not slavery. Only the love of life itself can.

To punish the mothers, is like asking someone to embrace their nature gift (give birth) to justify their own existence. You must understand them before you can justify your own judgment toward them.

Abortion is not right at all, so does punishing someone that is cornered.It is the same argument with a father just to steal baby formula to feed his baby because of unemployment ... You must have heart to swing the sword of righteousness.

Response by SPC James Harsh made Apr 5 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-04-05T08:17:07-04:00

I saw the clip of Hillary saying that unborn arent protected under law however she says shes about trying to rescue them. I thought of an animation of an unborn getting the assurance from Hillary and Lol

My thoughts are just about timeframe. There shouldnt be babies thrown in buckets crying to death. The pp was alledge trading limbs. Too far in my opinion

Response by MSgt Michael Bischoff made Apr 5 at 2016 9:01 AM

2016-04-05T09:01:35-04:00

With the way things are going women will need lawyers anytime the go to the doctor.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 5 at 2016 10:53 AM

2016-04-05T10:53:19-04:00

Yes women should go to squalid make shift abortion clinics.

Response by PFC Alexander Oliveira made Apr 5 at 2016 10:58 AM

2016-04-05T10:58:11-04:00

how about we just not make abortion illegal?

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Apr 5 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-04-05T11:11:05-04:00

You can't punish people after the fact for something that was legal at the time that they did it. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that we can.

If abortion were to be made illegal then the only people who should be punished are those who get involved with the practice after its outlawing.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Apr 5 at 2016 11:42 AM

2016-04-05T11:42:55-04:00

Abortion is right up there with religion and politics in that it is an extremely emotionally charged issue.

I agree with CPT Private RallyPoint Member that Chris Mathews is scum. Though I really don't think that makes him worse than any of these presidential candidates who are all pretty slimy in their own right.

Whether legal or illegal, Abortion will not stop just because of a law.

The biggest problem with Abortion is when does a fetus cease to be a symbiotic organism dependent upon the host, and become a full fledged person. I like what PVT James Strait said about viable brain activity. It is hard to say. There have been underdeveloped fetus' that when delivered have survived, and perfectly healthy babies that just died for no apparent reason.
You also have to consider circumstances. Was it just a careless encounter after a night of heavy drinking that caused the pregnancy? Was it rape? Consider the scenario above, what if the woman was a twelve year old child who was impregnated by an abusive family member? Still want to prosecute for murder? Who is the victim?
It goes beyond that. It asks the question what is worse an abortion, or a woman who doesn't want the baby dumping it in a dumpster. A lot of places now have safe haven laws which allow a parent to dump an unwanted child at a fire station. So now you are talking about creating wards of the state. Are people willing to put money where their mouth is? Are people willing to pay for that child until maturity? What about college, are the people willing to pay for that unwanted child to go to college?

My personal take is I don't care what a woman does with a womb that I have not visited, nor am I responsible for. I do not condone abortion as a form of birth control. There are so many better choices. As a guy, I would rather just wrap it than have a friendly fire accident. If society does insist on dictating abortion policy, then society needs to take responsibility for the woman who is in a position she feels terminating the pregnancy is the best choice. Maybe if instead of treating those seeking abortion like criminals we treated them as people in need of help, some would choose to have the child. I know that there are couples who are married and cannot have babies, maybe start a program for childless couples to assist the woman with the unwanted pregnancy, then taking on responsibility for the child at birth. That would be a win for everyone. No moral decision there. The woman does not have to have a medical procedure that can have lasting effects on her (physically and emotionally), the baby gets to go to a home where it is wanted, those who cannot have biological children have a child, those who oppose abortion for religious reasons get to see a positive result, and those who think it is nobody's business can go have a sandwich. If all else fails, call Brad and Angelina, they'll take any child that isn't nailed down.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 4:14 PM

2016-04-06T16:14:30-04:00

There are two kinds of laws: Mala in Se and Mala Prohibita. The first makes committing an offense in and of itself a violation on its face. The second is more exacting. A law has been enacted that prohibits a specific act. Afterwhich, one now generally proceeds through the judicial system, and is found guilty or not guilty. So. would a woman liable for punishment? Legally, Yes. That's the simple answer. But abortion, itself, is not as mechanical as "speeding." This issue is bound up in medical ethics, religious beliefs, and the highly contentious issue of personal freedom. Therein, lies the rub.