If an E-5 has sex with a junior, who would be at fault?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 12:04:44 -0400

If a E-5 has sex with a junior, wouldn’t the higher ranked person be at fault?

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Jun 17 at 2018 12:09 PM

LTC Kevin B. — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 12:09:50 -0400

Both would be at fault, but the NCO would (and rightfully so) get hit with a much stiffer punishment.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2018 12:31 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 12:31:16 -0400

Army Regulation 600-20, 4-14 covers Relationships between Soldiers of different grade.
AR 600-20, 4-14c (2)
http://asktop.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/AR-600-20-Extract-on-Fraternzation.pdf

Both are at fault unless covered under the regulation and both can be punished.
The NCO is more than likely going to be punished more severely than the Junior Enlisted due to their position. "No one is more professional than I"

Ultimately you should consult an Army Judge Advocate (Attorney) for proper military legal advice or assistance.

AR-600-20-Extract-on-Fraternzation.pdf

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Response by SSG Lyle O'Rorke made Jun 18 at 2018 12:16 AM

SSG Lyle O'Rorke — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 00:16:35 -0400

Unless there is a clear violation of the regulations no one is at fault. Hell I dated and married a PFC when I was a SGT. Been married 12 years.

Response by SPC Joseph Wojcik made Jun 18 at 2018 9:51 AM

SPC Joseph Wojcik — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 09:51:29 -0400

Is it causing problems with unit cohesion? Or are some soldiers just out for blood? (no one likes a blue falcon, it won't make you any friends)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2018 11:21 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:21:57 -0400

It's in the DA Pam 600-35 and it's definitely prohibited, which means both are at fault. It's up to the commander how to punish each one. Typically the higher ranking person receives the heavier punishment. First, given their rank they have more responsibility to know. Second, with their rank and sometimes their position, they are in a position to take advantage of the junior.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 18 at 2018 12:09 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:09:27 -0400

Both are guilty if it was consensual- tho the NCO's punishment should be harder due to their rank and knowledge.

Response by SGT David T. made Jun 18 at 2018 12:17 PM

SGT David T. — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:17:30 -0400

If they are not in direct chain then neither or both. If they are direct chain then the senior is usually held responsible. Without more information, this is the best I can offer.

Response by SGT Cort Landry made Jun 18 at 2018 2:08 PM

SGT Cort Landry — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:08:04 -0400

Asking for a friend? ;)

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 18 at 2018 2:33 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:33:47 -0400

Both, the level of punishment would or should be much different. There are many factors that would influence a Commanders decision. Thank you for your service.

Response by SSG Edward Joy made Jun 18 at 2018 4:13 PM

SSG Edward Joy — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 16:13:02 -0400

Depends on what the age of concent in that state.

Response by PO2 Seth Carron made Jun 18 at 2018 4:57 PM

PO2 Seth Carron — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 16:57:28 -0400

You need more information than that. Were the two parties in a relationship prior to one of them becoming an E-5? Are they in the same chain of command? Was it a casual one time encounter, or something ongoing? I'm not asking for names, but a little context goes a long ways.

Response by A1C Ronald Harris made Jun 18 at 2018 5:01 PM

A1C Ronald Harris — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:01:52 -0400

If that junior SM in under direct supervision of that NCO then yes. In my experience, just don't fraternize. Not worth is on so many levels. "Don't lay your meat where you make your bread." I only fraternized with civilians.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jun 18 at 2018 9:05 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 21:05:27 -0400

Of course.

If it isn't in the chain of command, then it shouldn't be a problem. The scenario is a bit vague, but if it's within the chain then it could potentially be a huge problem to the Sr.

Response by CPL Phillip Hubbard made Jun 19 at 2018 9:10 AM

CPL Phillip Hubbard — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 09:10:08 -0400

This happened in my Unit and went all the way up the Chain. It was considered a none issue due to the fact She was a Nurse and he was an Infantry Soldier. They concluded neither one could influence the others jobs or Chain of Command. They stated if this had been in the same Office or Unit - there would have been punishment dealt out.

Response by TSgt Terry Hudson made Jun 19 at 2018 9:53 AM

TSgt Terry Hudson — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 09:53:51 -0400

This is a vague question. Are they in the same C.o.C.? Are they even in the same unit. If not there’s really not a problem at all. The NCO might get some flak from his peers but if no regs are broken then yeah.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2018 11:07 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 11:07:10 -0400

That's fraternization in any circumstance in the Army under the new policy. Both could be at fault, but unless adultery is involved, the NCO would of course be more at fault. Fraternization rules protect authority, not junior enlisted. And before someone shouts coercion, that's different than fraternization and protects the Soldier.

Response by SFC Sara Zlateff made Jun 20 at 2018 10:38 AM

SFC Sara Zlateff — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 10:38:14 -0400

The question is too vague to be given a proper answer. As an MP, Jag, married to an MP, CID i wouldn’t even respond to the call with out more information.

Response by MSgt Stephen Council made Nov 3 at 2019 10:07 PM

MSgt Stephen Council — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 22:07:53 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member The higher tank is always at fault in an inappropriate relationship. However, simply having sex with someone junior isnt automatically a violation. Was the Sr. person in a position of authority over the Jr. participant?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 3 at 2019 11:14 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 23:14:39 -0500

I use to tell my junior soldiers they were forbidden fruit.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Nov 3 at 2019 11:28 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 23:28:39 -0500

I was also never in a unit that even had one female attached at any level. I’d suppose back in my day it would mostly be transportation battalions and the like, direct combat units no, but that was 1975-79 too.

Response by SGT George Heath made Nov 14 at 2019 12:10 PM

SGT George Heath — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:10:54 -0500

It depends, was the sex really really good or was it a why did I do that moment ? Just Kidding

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2020 1:28 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:28:04 -0400

Just read AR 600-20 and become familiar with it as an NCO. Fraternization is explained there regardless if is your direct chain of command or personnel under your supervision. If you cant find the answer there talk to JAG they are the experts in Military law. Recommendation from NCO to NCO read the regulation and stay clear of any drama that can affect your career in the Military. Also read on the SHARP program both EO and SHARP were designed for a purpose and as NCOs we are required to know and enforce those two in order to maintain good order and discipline within the unit.

Response by 1st Lt Padre Dave Poedel made Apr 2 at 2021 12:51 AM

1st Lt Padre Dave Poedel — Fri, 02 Apr 2021 00:51:03 -0400

Yes!

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 9 at 2022 6:54 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 09 Mar 2022 18:54:46 -0500

Lots of very smart Army NCOs commented on this situation already. I want to bring in an additional factor: active or reserve component. The Reserve and Guard have exceptions to Service directives. If both parties are reserve component members then this may be no problem at all. If the relationship and relations happened outside of the time they were under the UCMJ, then it’s a complete nonissue for the military. Same if their relationship predated their joining the military.

From a practical point of view, a commander may choose to look the other way if there’s no complaint on his desk. Great time to consult with the first sergeant.