If an officer asked to be dropped from Ranger school is that a career ender ? If so, why?

2016-03-14T18:13:26-04:00

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Mar 14 at 2016 6:22 PM

2016-03-14T18:22:19-04:00

I know of many that DOR'd from Ranger School and were not affected by the decision.... of course that was during Vietnam when Company Grade Officers life expectancy was about the same as fruit flies....

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Mar 14 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-03-14T18:26:01-04:00

I am not sure the truth on this but at least the urban legend is that it is a career ender because essentially you are quitting a school. So this goes against the Warrior Ethos and that is not what we want to see in our leaders. I do not know how this ultimately gets recorded in a service record. When I went through in 1985-86, I was recycled. I was given the choice to either recycle or quit with what they call a "lack of motivation (LOM)." I chose recycle and got to experience parts of it twice.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Mar 14 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-03-14T18:34:19-04:00

It doesn't look on your records and probably will hurt your career in some way.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2016 7:21 PM

2016-03-14T19:21:24-04:00

I think the Officer who chooses to LOM (non medical or family emergency drop) out of Ranger School gets a letter sent to his/her future BN CDR. At least that was true about 7 years ago.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2016 8:46 PM

2016-03-14T20:46:19-04:00

It is never good to quit anything especially as a leader and more importantly as an officer. As what was stated before, quitting goes against our warrior ethos, it demonstrates a weakness of character. It may reflect on a 2-1 or the ORB and that would not be a good thing. Class 9-92 first time go, never quit.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Mar 14 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-03-14T20:49:23-04:00

Failure to complete any rigorous school or otherwise is a kiss of death to the officer, esp for something such as 'lack of motivation' as mentioned by MAJ David Vermillion and COL Jon Thompson . Yr legs had better be broken from a crash and burn in the drop zone rather than DOR. I hate to think what's going to happen to the various Marine Corps Officers who did not comple Infantry Officers Course. They should probably fall on their swords.. Used to be monitors put a big red asterisk(*) on yr personnel file at Headquarters Marine Corps ("he's a strawberry") it was then said, and those were the first files tossed out at any promotion board, etc.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2016 10:28 PM

2016-03-14T22:28:30-04:00

Infantry Officers that don't complete Ranger School end up low on the list to be a PL. Reason for that is Ranger School is the Army's premier leadership school. It shows to Commanders they can lead troops in austere conditions, or at least not quit in those conditions.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Mar 15 at 2016 7:37 AM

2016-03-15T07:37:13-04:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member I can't speak for today, however, I do know that, in the 70's, if an officer voluntarily quit Ranger School he had to sign a "Non-motivation Statement", which was put in his personnel file. As an Assistant Operations Officer in the Ranger Department, I oversaw the signing of quite a few of those forms by officers who quit. Everybody who went to Ranger School probably knows of at least one officer who hurt himself on a jump or something, so he could get out on a medical/for an injury rather than quit.

On another note, I served on several promotion/command boards in the 90's and never saw a non-motivation statement in an officer's file, however, I did see academic reports indicating an officer had quit one school or another (as well as being dropped for cheating, plagiarism, failure to meet academic requirements, etc.). Bottom line is that, if an officer starts a military course of instruction/school, it would behoove him/her to finish it.

Response by COL William Schafer (RET) made Mar 15 at 2016 9:29 AM

2016-03-15T09:29:41-04:00

Teammates, There isn't any official file documentation that shows you dropped from a school, such as Ranger School, kept in your records...other than your orders taking you to that school; orders taking you away from school and the lack of a graduation certificate. Lack of Motivation and other administrative records created at ranger School remain on file at the Ranger Training Brigade. That being said, is as already stated, it is against the Warrior Ethos and the Army Values to quit. So, if you quit you clearly have dug yourself a hole that will be hard to climb out of. The only way to do this is to work hard and convince you current leadership, peers and subordinates to help you out of that hole.

Response by MAJ Mark N. made Mar 15 at 2016 10:41 AM

2016-03-15T10:41:54-04:00

The bigger question is why is/was the officer at Ranger school to begin with? As the school slots become more difficult to get - especially for those of us not Infantry - the pre-Ranger selection process should screen out those who have any reservations or motivational issues. Once there, any candidate - officer or enlisted - should understand that he (or now she) has endured a rigorous qualification process, and should do everything in their power to stay the course, and graduate....short of injury. There is a reason we say, "Ranger's Lead the Way!"

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Mar 15 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-03-15T17:13:13-04:00

If you asked to be dropped you will never be accepted again. It looks pretty damn bad and unless you are absolutely shit hot, you will hit your ceiling at O4.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-03-15T18:42:14-04:00

What is the impact for enlisted?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-03-15T19:12:15-04:00

It does. I am in the National Guard. As an officer in the Guard we really aren't afforded the opportunity of our active duty brothers to go to Ranger School. So it is not a bit deal for us. But when I was enlisted at Bragg I didn't think you could be an infantry officer without a Ranger Tab. I ever saw one. I know now that it happens. I did speak to a LTC at Benning about this. He stated that it does affect your career. Just by nature the Tabbed Officer will get preference. This LTC was a Battalion Commander at Basic Training. He knew it would never get a line infantry battalion without a tab.

Response by SPC Matt Johnson made Mar 15 at 2016 7:50 PM

2016-03-15T19:50:24-04:00

after jump school my 201 file somehow magically made it in to the RIP school group by accident. Being that I was not in an MOS that was allowed to be Ranger. I made a hard stupid choice to bring it to their attention. I was 92F/77F petroleum supply specialist. All I could think is that I would end up going thru hell only to be denied a ranger tab due to my MOS. I was really temped and I had no doubt that I had the ability and determination to make it. But we all know how well the Army is at fucking soldiers over. That and my orders where to go to home town recruiting after jump school. shortly after bringing it to the attention of the Gunny(Marine) instructor, strangely enough, my 201 file went missing. And yes we did have a Marine as an instructor at Jump School

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-03-16T11:55:35-04:00

No. I have served with a variety of officers and enlisted that attended and quit, failed the PT test, or simply refused to attend ranger school. Here is the answer at the end of the day: Ranger school is a development leadership school which focuses heavily on small unit tactics. It is not the be-all end-all school, but it is as close to establishing a baseline of common understanding and familiarization across the force as possible. Want to know how to set up an ambush? Ranger school will teach you to standard based on years of deployment experience packed into a small book.
Now if you as a combat arms leader, elect not to participate in that development, then you will have to make up for it in other ways in order to be viewed positively by your peers and seniors. For officers, it is an expectation that you go.

As a prior service 11B that switched over and is finishing up company command time as an 11A, I will tell you that I expect officers and enlisted to not just go, but to desire to go. It is all about self improvement and increasing one's ability to be successful on the battlefield.

With that said, I have had a variety of PSG and 2LT/1LTs that have gone and failed for whatever reason. As long as they endeavor to improve themselves and are open to learning I can work with that. Otherwise, they have failed twice and should find themselves a new line of work.

Response by MAJ R. Andrew Hoskinson made Mar 17 at 2016 12:35 PM

2016-03-17T12:35:37-04:00

If you are an infantry officer, yes - it's harmful to your career.

Response by MAJ Craig Clark made Mar 24 at 2016 12:25 PM

2016-03-24T12:25:27-04:00

There isn’t a black and white answer to this question.

Will it hurt your career if you are going to an Airborne or Light Infantry unit – Absolutely. Those units want officers to be Ranger qualified and while getting hurt or failing isn’t an issue, (because they will just send you back to try again), requesting to drop doesn’t preclude another try, therefore, Airborne and light Infantry units won’t want that officer. They can’t just have the black Chinook come and take them away in the middle of the night, but what they will do is not allow them to have jobs leading soldiers and will stick them in staff positions instead. THAT, will definitely affect an Infantry officers career because they aren’t able to complete the right jobs when they should and will be at a disadvantage come promotional board review when being compared to their peers.

Will it hurt your career if you are going to a non-Airborne or non-Light Infantry unit – Nope. Seeing Ranger qualified Infantry officers in Mechanized units (especially LT's) is somewhat a rarity and officers are not discriminated against for not having their Ranger Tabs. There isn’t an expectation for a mechanized Infantry officer to be Ranger qualified so while in a mechanized unit, it won’t hurt them. However, if the Infantry Branch continues to want Infantry officers rotating between Mech to Lite, Lite to Mech assignments, once that officer moves to a Lite or Airborne assignment, the above discrimination will come into play.

Will it hurt your career if you are a non-Infantry Officer – Nope. There isn’t even an expectation for a non-Infantry Officer to be Ranger qualified in AG, QM, etc. so someone requesting to drop wouldn’t be discriminated against for doing that.

Response by CPT Steve Casey made Mar 31 at 2016 1:17 PM

2016-03-31T13:17:17-04:00

I remember a classmate LOM'ing in first phase from R-School. None of us could believe it. He was not going to remain infantry as an officer, as he was branch-detailed anyway to another branch after two or three years. However, can you imagine going to your unit and having to answer that question, again, and again, and again--"hey - what happened to you at R-School? Why no tab?" Not a good way to start any career. None of us ever had a problem with fellow infantry officers who tried and got hurt, or failed, as long as they did everything possible to go back again. But LOMs--no. No officers or NCOs, or the junior enlisted soldiers wanted an LOM in their midst.

Response by 1stLt Steven P. made Apr 1 at 2016 11:03 PM

2016-04-01T23:03:17-04:00

A DOR is an indication that the officer is not in the right place. He either was not confident enough in himself when he got assigned to the school or when he DORd. While that might improve over the life of his career it should be a serious point of contention before promotion boards.

Response by LTC Mark Hunt made Mar 11 at 2019 12:44 PM

2019-03-11T12:44:59-04:00

As a new platoon leader in the 7th ID in 1989 and recent Ranger School grad, I remember our brigade commander asking non-Ranger qualified Lt's when they were going back. Non-qual Lts were far more likely to get sent to division or brigade for taskings.

Response by SFC Michael Turnbaugh made Mar 11 at 2019 5:13 PM

2019-03-11T17:13:43-04:00

Here is a thought does having a tab actually make you a good leader. Not necessarily I know plenty of great leaders who don’t have tabs, never went, or dident graduate. I also know many tabbed officers who couldn’t lead a mob out of a wet paper bag but by god they had a tab and could run. Do you consider all the Special forces guys with no ranger tab bad leaders. Do you consider all the Armor officers or Field Artillarybofficers and NCO’s bad leaders. I would say if you evaluate a persons propensity to be a good leader based on a single quality you are missing out on what it means to be a good leader and evaluator yourself.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2019 9:57 PM

2019-03-11T21:57:59-04:00

Why isn't Ranger and Airborne reserved for infantry specialties? Instead, they are ticket punches. Why? Why does an officer or NCO in non-infantry billets need either? Infantry is the point of the spear but we are all part of the spear.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 12 at 2019 12:58 AM

2019-03-12T00:58:40-04:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Years ago, Original Darby Ranger, Ray O’Dell told me that he was a Hill Billy from the WV coal mines and that during the “original Ranger training’, that as a WV coal miner, he would fall dead before he Quit!

Ray also told me that he did not engage in hands on activity with his sons. He was concerned he might severely injure them!

Response by SGT Tj Casiano made Mar 12 at 2019 1:18 PM

2019-03-12T13:18:45-04:00

I wouldn't say that it's a career ender as much as it is an upward mobility stalker.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 12 at 2019 6:54 PM

2019-03-12T18:54:10-04:00

It is not. It can impact 11series for leadership time. Other MOS’ it has always been used as a leadership development program. If they do not finish for any reason who would know. Thank you for your service.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2019 7:47 PM

2019-03-16T19:47:50-04:00

Going to Ranger School is one thing: outside of the Active Army, it is difficult to get those slots (even for the Infantry), and the ability to attend a school is something not always available due to responsibilities or other considerations (such as, on the Guard end, one's responsibility to civilian employers). Once it's started, however, it should be finished. If a Soldier (much less an Officer) quits the School (versus a drop due to injury or failure, as both of those are correctable issues), that reflects a lack of resilience. It would be damning in any Soldier, but in a leader especially...?

Perhaps it wouldn't end a career, but it should definitely be a big warning sign.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Apr 1 at 2019 12:16 PM

2019-04-01T12:16:34-04:00

I once had a soldier who went to Ranger School and did not complete the school. Years later he was traying to get an assignment to a diffrent unit and was told by branch that would not be able to get out of the assignment because he had a "V" identifier in his MOS code. That code stands for being qualified as a Airborne and Ranger. Thos who are not Airborne qualified get a "G" identifier.

When i called Ranger branch at DA, the NCO who i spoke to about my soldier informed that when a soldier gets into Ranger school, the identifier is automatically awarded, if the soldier does not graduate, then it is recinded and a reason for non-completion is entered into the database. In the case of my soldier he had to go home on emergency leave. They had entered this as a reason for not completing the school, but they did not remove the identifier. This was fixed but it was also a learning experience for me as well. So i guess the short answer is yes, a reason for not completing the school is recoded at the DA level. Later on if the soldier decided to submit a 4187 requesting to go to Ranger school, DA has a record that they can use to decide if they will allow the soldier to attend again. This was also explaind to me by the NCO who i spoke to at DA.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Apr 19 at 2019 10:09 AM

2019-04-19T10:09:28-04:00

Instead of asking to be dropped from Ranger school. just do your best and graduate.

Response by SPC(P) Clifford Deal made Apr 20 at 2019 8:09 AM

2019-04-20T08:09:38-04:00

This day and age , pretty much. To the Academy types ANY lack or fail of school shows an "Unmotivated " individual. And THAT was in the mid 80's build up.

Response by SFC Charles E Hightower made Apr 21 at 2019 8:50 PM

2019-04-21T20:50:41-04:00

Hell No!!!

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Apr 22 at 2019 5:29 PM

2019-04-22T17:29:33-04:00

I would say no. There are many other branches and zillions of other officers in those branches who have never been to Ranger school. Not one officer I ever served under as a missile maggot was Ranger qualified. Even my former platoon leader who is a colonel now was Field Artillery with me when we served together but then patched over to Cav never went to Ranger School. When I knew him he did not even have jump wings. Both are combat branches but Ranger school and jump wings are less important to your career in these branches.

Response by SGT Jimmy Russo made Apr 23 at 2019 3:23 PM

2019-04-23T15:23:44-04:00

I requested to attend Ranger School 2 times , both times Command told me they were to short personal to meet mission goals , I had already been boarded for SSGT , An as if by Magic come Re-Up time I was told They could get me a slot , But by that time with a few other issues that were going on at Division Level I was shall we say very dissatisfied , an somehow the paperwork for my ARCOM seemed to have gotten misplaced at HHQ , an I was told if I chose to ETS they would not have enough time to resubmit paperwork , I had busted my butt an for them to wave something I had earned to be turned around an dangled like a carrot was sorta the straw that broke . I could not image someone giving up once they were in The Program , an as other had stated If I was aware I had a Officer or NCO that quit .I would have eyed their Leadership in question , a genuine medical issue / family emergency can be over looked .I knew several that had washed out of various programs an they were definitely given The Stink Eye upon return to the unit , an were usually shipped out pretty quickly there after .

Response by Terry Pinion made Apr 30 at 2019 9:28 PM

2019-04-30T21:28:32-04:00

the people in your class whould know you quit word gets arround even if the official line is your not punished the ranger tab is what is used in army to show your a squared away solider being ranger certified graduate of the school is not the same as being a member of the 75th ranger regiment, ranger school is a leader ship coarse where you are testedon squad sized tacticle problems that if your an officer you should know, it would be better to not finish do to being medicaly removed people do get injured and have to try agian the net year if they can get a slot having a reputaton as a quiter could stop you getting promoted someone who does have tab would be more qualified for advancment in many folks eyes although not neccassarily true,

Response by CW3 Peter Bassett made May 17 at 2019 11:10 AM

2019-05-17T11:10:04-04:00

As the COL said, there may not be an official "record" if you quit, and anyone interested enough could put it together from the orders, etc.. If you quit to save a marriage, had a sick kid, or some other valid distraction not related to LOM, you can probably survive it. If it's a "just not for me" thing, I would expect a relatively short career in the military. OER's don't have to say specifically that you lack motivation, are a quitter, etc. This would be too easy to appeal. Good OER/NCOER writers know how to send the message without being so obvious. For example, when the Rater talks about your fantastic potential, this is code for; you haven't actually accomplished anything. You'll be weeded out in the long run. Ranger School and the like isn't for everyone bro so if that's you, you're doing right to admit it and follow your path. Have a plan B in case you don't make it to retirement tho if you're not willing to finish these schools. Good luck.

Response by CW3 Michael Clifford made May 19 at 2019 6:19 PM

2019-05-19T18:19:58-04:00

Having pulled career manager files on senior officers as part of official criminal investigations, your career manager will know that you didn’t complete Ranger school and this could effect your future assignments, especially if the position requires a hard charging, determined leader.

Response by Sgt James Gross made May 19 at 2019 11:46 PM

2019-05-19T23:46:59-04:00

I am not sure how it would affect you, I think it would depend on how others see it and how it would affect your self esteem at that point. It would be hard to overcome the negative aspects and the opinions of those around you.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made May 19 at 2019 11:57 PM

2019-05-19T23:57:51-04:00

Not necessarily, the reason why the officer dropped out would be the key to determining his future in the Army.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Jul 20 at 2019 11:42 AM

2019-07-20T11:42:02-04:00

Wow. If someone believes that, you need help. Not sorry about that comment. Listen, you either have it or don’t. Realizing you don’t have what it takes, and choosing to go a different path shows me a man who knows his limits. I respect a person who does this rather than someone who doesn’t. I met a gentleman who was an AA counselor on one of the bases I served on. I ask him why he got into being a counselor for AA. He told me he was an officer and truly hated being one. He turned to alcohol for comfort and really f’ed his career up drinking. He screwed up so bad while being drunk, that the command sent him to rehab to dry out. Once he realized why he was drinking, he made a choice and finished his term and got out. He actually enjoyed the rest of his time as an officer in the military, but, still got out. He realize his limits. Not everyone can be Rambo, or John Wayne ( remember those are movies, not real life) in a certain MOS. However, you can be a Rambo or John Wayne in a different MOS. How about the cooks, supply or admin. If you didn’t have John Wayne’s or Rambos in those MOSs than the whole military would fall apart. Take pride in what you can do, realize your limits and not be ashamed of them. I hear “war stories” from the bull shitters and they look like shit to those of us who know. They only impress those who don’t know to make them feel better about themselves. A man is a man who can do what the man can do and can admit when he can’t do something. Resign and find your John Wayne/ Rambo job elsewhere in the military. They are waiting for you to lead.

Response by CW2 Jalistair B made Aug 2 at 2019 1:12 AM

2019-08-02T01:12:44-04:00

I have no idea. Just thought I'd share that, this being social media and all that.

Response by SSG Herman Bauman made Aug 4 at 2019 7:50 PM

2019-08-04T19:50:42-04:00

I have to say that I have seen officers wearing the Ranger Tab that I wouldn't follow across the street to a dog fight and I've known officers without it that I would follow anywhere.

Response by CPT Tony Baucom made Aug 6 at 2019 7:03 PM

2019-08-06T19:03:56-04:00

In IOBC at Ft Benning a group of 2LTs discussed ways to get out of Ranger School honorably. I chose to let the commandant know that I would take a pass on Ranger School. He thanked me for my honesty and freeing up a slot for someone who wanted to go. I was assigned Mech in the 3ID and served 4 months as PL until my Ranger tabbed BN Cdr made me company XO. My next BN Cdr was a chain smoking non Ranger tabbed commander who put me in a O3 job and retired a MG. I think Ranger school is great but the Army Infantry has a way up for those that don’t wear the Ranger tab but display strong leadership.

Response by MCPO Jason Griggs made Aug 12 at 2019 5:19 AM

2019-08-12T05:19:51-04:00

No it won't effect them same as seals in the Navy you just go back to your unit

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Aug 13 at 2019 8:47 AM

2019-08-13T08:47:26-04:00

Leadership schools are always important to a career.

Response by MSG Patrick Smith made Aug 15 at 2019 5:55 PM

2019-08-15T17:55:17-04:00

Infantry officers who do not complete Ranger school due to an injury can be re-cycled and injury permitting finish the course. Those who drop from the course due to LOM (lack of motivation) or being peered out have a very difficult time being successful in the ARMY as a career officer. Competition to just get a class date is very high along with unit and soldier availability complicate just getting "in the gate". RANGER school is a leadership course that uses INFANTRY tactics to teach fundamental battle skills to Infantry Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers alike.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Aug 17 at 2019 12:10 PM

2019-08-17T12:10:20-04:00

Ask yourself what would you do if one of your junior officers quit RANGER school?
RANGER school is not for the faint of heart. You must have the intestinal fortitude to C/M when the situation calls for it. I personally know of an officer who committed suicide because he was being dropped for an honor violation. Do you want to be a quitter or a winner? You decide.

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Dec 9 at 2019 4:50 PM

2019-12-09T16:50:32-05:00

It depends on the why the request is made.
If there are family issues that keep him from keeping his head on school.
That would be one.
A big part would be witch how far along he is.
Example if he just started at 4th rtb or father like 5th rtb. Then if he is at 6th rtb it would be losing a lot. Now if he was allowed to come back in at the beginning of the of the phase that he left and how long he was gone would make a huge difference.
the are a limited number of slots for this school.
For infantry officers my understanding if you do not have the tab when you come up for Major you better get it fast or put your papers in to change your field or to get out.