In light of the recent Marine death at Paris Island, is hazing a right of passage or just plain wrong?

COL Lee Flemming — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 03:19:43 -0400

What's your opinion? What's your experience?

Response by TSgt Joe C. made Sep 9 at 2016 3:21 AM

TSgt Joe C. — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 03:21:40 -0400

Someone died, I say it is 100% wrong COL Lee Flemming.

Response by SFC William Farrell made Sep 9 at 2016 3:22 AM

SFC William Farrell — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 03:22:02 -0400

Its just plain wrong COL Lee Flemming, it should not have happened.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 9 at 2016 3:35 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 03:35:51 -0400

I have never believed that hazing has any value anywhere including Military units. Tradition and pride is great and has great value hazing does not in my opinion. A practice that results in death or serious injury or demeans anyone in front of others should not ever be allowed !

Response by 1SG Patrick Burke made Sep 9 at 2016 4:00 AM

1SG Patrick Burke — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 04:00:10 -0400

One man's ribbing is another man's hazing. We have all seen examples of what the true definition of hazing is and the devastating outcomes. That is wrong all the way around. In my experience coming up through the ranks, I have been in very close Platoons and led a close knit Troop. For the enlisted, no Soldier just walks into a unit and is automatically part of the team. The PFCs/SPCs will test the newbie to see if they will accept him as part of the team. Combat Arms are like pack animals. There is an obvious line that is not crossed, but for most the acceptance outweighs the ribbing received..

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2016 4:26 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 04:26:34 -0400

It's just plain wrong. We want to be a professional organization. There are no other business or organizations that would condone this type of activity. Why would we ever think this is a good idea? It is detrimental to good order and discipline.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Sep 9 at 2016 6:18 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 06:18:34 -0400

There was plenty of "hazing" that went on back in the day. Parris Island might have perfected the art. In basic training you are trying to turn an 18 year old, undisciplined, under educated, individualist into a basically trained Marine. If you think you can do that by playing nice and not raising your voice, getting a little physical, scaring the hell out of them etc you are kidding yourself and will do the next generation of warriors a disservice.

I have a theory that one of the reasons we are seeing such heightened levels of PTSD these days is due to the training regimens being so lax/light etc. these days. We don't want to stress anyone out, over burden their systems etc. The old saying the more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war applies to mental toughness as well.

You need to prepare people for combat and for the rigors that accompany it. You can never completely simulate combat in training but your goal should always be to prepare people as much as possible for the eventuality. Doing anything less is a leadership failure that may cost people their lives.

The guy at Parris Island killed himself, I believe by jumping out of a window or off a stairwell. You never want it to end that way but I suspect he was simply mentally unable to handle the stress of training. He likely went through the same training generations of Marines have gone through (likely less).

We had a guy in my platoon at Parris Island that tried to kill himself (by drinking detergent). He was unsuccessful and picked up the nickname of Mr Bubble. After that episode we were given unofficial periods of instruction on how to kill ourselves correctly. Jumping off the stairwell or out a window (on the third level) was one of the ways to do it properly.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 9 at 2016 6:20 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 06:20:10 -0400

The problem is that "hazing" (et al) is just too Subjective a term for everything we use it for.

It's a spectrum. Some of it is far to one side, and falls under esprit de corps and is perfectly fine. Other stuff is just "abuse." Unfortunately, some of the stuff falls in the middle. And that middle is large, grey, and open to interpretation.

Without being my overly verbose self, we'll break it down into two parts. Does it help accomplish mission (directly)? As in, can it be viewed as actual Training? And, is there potential to cause harm to the Servicemember?

If there is potential to cause harm to the Servicemember, chances are it's deep into the wrong side of the rainbow. If it doesn't actually support mission (or build esprit de corps), it gets even deeper.

Take an event like "Crossing the Line" (becoming a Shellback). It's absolutely "hazing" using a textbook definition. However, it is also Tradition, and it does build comradery. The Naval Services minimise risk shifting it as far up the spectrum to keep it allowed as possible.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Sep 9 at 2016 6:58 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 06:58:44 -0400

Just plain wrong.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2016 7:11 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 07:11:06 -0400

This type of stuff is just abuse hiding under the mantle of tradition and "seeing whether someone will have your back" and can be a member of the club. Unit members don't learn anything about whether someone will pull their weight and then some by humiliating them. Rather, a newbie earns respect and acceptance by his performance in his job, the things that matter.

There "traditions" continue because no one wants to be the last one to have it done to them, and certain sadistic types actually enjoy it. But it serves no real purpose, IMO.

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Sep 9 at 2016 8:17 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 08:17:53 -0400

You will have a hundred opinions depending in the eras COL Lee Flemming Some traditions are pretty silly- but we always used to send the newbies out to get 100 yards of flight line from the tool crib. Didn't hurt more than their feelings. In todays AF it might get you a court martial however...

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2016 8:18 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 08:18:00 -0400

While this is sad that a Marine has passed, the act of hazing has changed from the ol' days. Honestly these hazing rituals were actual passed down traditions within the respected branches.

Example: My uncle would talk about "Tacking on crows" and "Tacking on pins" What tradition was that (if I'm correct) that a sailor who would be frocked to Petty Officer would have their rating patch sewn on their whites by those who helped him/her get the rank. Every single stitch or "Tack" was done by one of his/her peers. It was taken out of control when the idea was changed into sewing into the sailor's arm or pounding the collar device/warfare pin into their body. The actual ceremonial aspect has gone from a lot of ol' ways of the Navy.

The idea of tradition has been molded into something that has disgraced, hurt and killed many. Hazing is punishable under UCMJ and as it should be. Common Sense isn't applied when hazing happens; it hurts the person being hazed and , while not at the time, hurts the sailor who committed it.

Have I experienced it? At the time, no; but looking back, I may have seen it. The whole "Double salute the squirrels, checking your sea bag for water-safe integrity, making sure you take your mattress to the quarterdeck to be stamped (yes, that's happened when I was in A-school; wasn't me), etc. That I just think is simple things compare to some of the stuff I've heard. Still it's hazing and it's not to be tolerated.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2016 8:27 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 08:27:19 -0400

Just plain wrong, no excuse, should never happen.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Sep 9 at 2016 8:42 AM

MSG Pat Colby — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 08:42:55 -0400

The sensationalist nature of your picture is misleading in this case, sir..

"Because he didn't follow proper procedure, the recruit was forced to run back and forth in his barracks, the report said.

After several runs, the recruit began to cry and fell to the floor clutching his throat, apparently unresponsive, the report said. He was ordered to get up and was slapped in the face, it said. After he was slapped, the recruit ran out a door and vaulted over a railing on the third floor of the barracks, the report said."

Sorry Sir but the knee-jerk reaction of destroying any semblance of realistic (and/or Corrective) training is exactly what the Services do NOT need. Given the scenario above which was in the original story, there was no hazing in my view. The guy did something wrong and was basically told to do laps. FFS, that shit happens in every High School football field across America. The guy wasn't hazed. He wasn't waterboarded. He was told to do laps in the barracks. In an act of douchebaggery he began crying and fell to the floor. (I'd fucking slap him too for being a little bitch.) The act of him running out the door to throw himself over a railing proves he wasn't physically harmed by his instructors.

Just like the gun debate. Every time someone shoots somebody, the Left demands more control against those that had nothing to do with the shooting. In this case, those that will suffer are the future recruits that will rely on "stress cards" and Safe Spaces. We cannot and must not coddle our Troops. It's not fair to them.

The pussification of training is the ultimate goal for some people.

Response by SrA Chris "Shadow" McGee made Sep 9 at 2016 8:48 AM

SrA Chris "Shadow" McGee — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 08:48:01 -0400

COL Lee Flemming If someone died as a result it has to be wrong.

Response by PO2 Marty Sharpe made Sep 9 at 2016 9:38 AM

PO2 Marty Sharpe — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 09:38:56 -0400

A little hazing is fine. Such as a bucket of steam or some relative bearing grease. Of course that would only relative in the navy.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Sep 9 at 2016 10:26 AM

MSgt John Taylor — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 10:26:55 -0400

Hazing serves no purpose other than to allow some to get their frustrations out at your expense. There are a million ways to forge bonds, commemorate events or accomplishments that don't result in deaths, or ass kickings.

My all time favorite "a wetting down!" Have a burger burn and some laughs, it'll leave just as big of an impression, than almost killing the guy/gal your trying to honor.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 9 at 2016 10:51 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 10:51:48 -0400

I didn't consider it hazing at boot camp and still don't. Everything the DIs did was to break us down and build us back up. Is a lot of stuff that happened at boot camp over the top, of course. But every little game toughened us up just a little bit more and made us a bit more prepared for the insanity that is war.

The way I see it, boot camp is what prepares us in case we become a POW. Will we punk out and snitch on our fellow brothers for favorable treatment... or will we harden and endure and unite against our common foe.

The Di/Recruit dynamic is very much a love/hate relationship. We will hate every minute we are under their care, but the moment we leave, we will love all the time they spent with us because we see the value in everything they put us through to make us tougher, stronger, faster versions of our previous selves.

Response by Jordan Gaudard made Sep 9 at 2016 11:03 AM

Jordan Gaudard — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:03:29 -0400

For those who haven't researched the article, I want to point out the hazing and the death are related to a sense, but it was a suicide none the less. Knowing your Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen is essential is being a leader. Push them to the limits, but don't push them over the edge.

Response by SSG Wally Lawver made Sep 9 at 2016 11:16 AM

SSG Wally Lawver — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:16:29 -0400

PISC is intentionally a tough place to be. Many recruits fall short and never become Marines without jumping off a balcony. Was he hazed, or just a weak minded product of a society that coddles its youth and never holds them accountable. PISC may well of been the 1st time this young man was tested mentally and physically. The death is a tragedy, but lets continue making being a Marine recruit at PISC a very demanding, difficult and life changing event for those who show up........................

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Sep 9 at 2016 11:41 AM

SSgt Terry P. — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:41:15 -0400

COL Lee Flemming My brother and i both joined the Marine Corps ,he was discharged in basic for inability to adjust.I finished basic and the rest of my training,did my time in Vietnam and came home ,partially because of the stress of the training ,if one can't handle the stress of boot camp,how can they handle the stress of combat.

Response by PO2 Kristy Williams made Sep 9 at 2016 11:59 AM

PO2 Kristy Williams — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:59:15 -0400

I think, like many others on here, there is a line not to be crossed. A little picking and ribbing is not bad, it's when you cross the line in bullying that it becomes an issue. I was in a shop of mostly men as an airframeer, they teased me relentlessly on a daily basis. Not to hurt me but to let me know I was part of their team, their family.

When I first joined the shop no one really talked to me much, apparently I was the first female in the shop in a really long time so they had to have a sexual harassment class just because I was coming. Which made them hate me, I don't blame them. After a few months of getting to know me I became part of the shop. They tested me on skills and knowledge and general jackassery before accepting me though. I felt safe and welcome within my shop even though yea at first they weren't the nicest dudes ever.

So it's common sense I guess to know where that line stops.

Response by SSG Stephan Pendarvis made Sep 9 at 2016 1:18 PM

SSG Stephan Pendarvis — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 13:18:47 -0400

Wrong....

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Sep 9 at 2016 1:44 PM

CSM Thomas McGarry — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 13:44:03 -0400

It's just plain wrong-Hope those responsible up and down the COC are brought to justice over this!!

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Sep 9 at 2016 3:50 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 15:50:27 -0400

"Hazing", by modern sensibilities, is a brush broad enough to color even the most innocuous behavior the same shade as the most egregious.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Sep 9 at 2016 4:43 PM

SFC Pete Kain — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 16:43:40 -0400

Hazing in the Military is crap. They joined the Service not pledging a frat, and deserve better.

Response by SFC George Smith made Sep 9 at 2016 5:04 PM

SFC George Smith — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:04:43 -0400

We have had Some form of hazing in the military for Centuries...

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 9 at 2016 5:58 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 17:58:39 -0400

Just plain wrong.

Response by CPO Billy Rice made Sep 9 at 2016 8:01 PM

CPO Billy Rice — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 20:01:25 -0400

Hazing or Right of Passage ? If hazing is done behind closed doors or in secret then it is an abuse or criminal act and not a right of passage, if hazing is done in an organized manner and being monitored against excessive hazing then it is a Right of Passage, there are many traditional Right of Passage ceremonies (yes, Right of Passage is a ceremony when properly organized and monitored), but I believe these Right of Passage ceremonies are obsolete today because the value of them are not understood by the younger generation and for some become a tool or excuse to do harm, Right of Passage is old school and we old goats understood the meaning and reasoning behind them, it's completely lost on the newer generation

Response by SPC Chelsea Fernandez made Sep 9 at 2016 8:22 PM

SPC Chelsea Fernandez — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 20:22:30 -0400

Hazing is a form of bullying and I can't believe that our men and women would participate in such action. Its despicable and not human.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2016 8:42 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 20:42:31 -0400

Some of the old traditions will be missed. I looked forward to getting penned I took pride in that little thump on the shoulders when I got a new rank. But, people today mix up proud traditions with an excuse to be a jerk, and that's when it's gone too far. However, the reality is that before we built a soldier up, now we teach them classes on resilience because they have been coddled their whole life.

How long will it be until the military has "Safe Zones" for soldiers who are just too stressed out?

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 9 at 2016 9:07 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 21:07:44 -0400

Where are the adults?

Response by SMSgt Matthew Hoyer made Sep 9 at 2016 10:31 PM

SMSgt Matthew Hoyer — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 22:31:33 -0400

The example of the Marine is pretty over the top. if you are unable to make a competent warrior without being THAT evil to them, then you are a worthless leader. I agree the kid probably wasn't cut out for it. But if something that you did...AS AN NCO....caused a recruit to kill himself, then you have no business leading, and in fact are not; you're just being a dick with stripes. You ought to have had brains enough to identify that that kid couldn't do it and cut bait. Don't push them until they die; it's a waste of life.
btw, the picture above is a standard Air Force aircraft maintenance going-away. the expect it and honestly, i think something like that (being non-harmful) is good for morale.

Response by SA Jim Arnold made Sep 9 at 2016 10:38 PM

SA Jim Arnold — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 22:38:43 -0400

Unacceptable. It has a tendency to get out of hand.....obviously.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Sep 9 at 2016 11:47 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 23:47:24 -0400

COL Lee Flemming Hazing - harassment can be overdone. I believe it is necessary; properly supervised.

The last time I attended a BOOT graduation @ MCRD San Diego, the steps of the reviewing were in need of cleaning. Two recruits appeared with 'foxtail' brushes. Those two recruits , under direction, appeared to have a red hot poker bothering them. They were in 'Marine Boot Camp'!

Common sense must prevail. Troops must learn to respond, NOW!

I recall one of my attempts at solving a young Soldier's attitude.

I was with him, same 'load', same little uphill run at noon in the desert. Now, in today's world, w/more maturity; I should have brought a Medic and an ambulance! He was going to learn to respond w/o question!

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 10 at 2016 8:33 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 10 Sep 2016 08:33:56 -0400

Hazing is not and never has been the right thing to do. If leaders allow it to happen they should be punished under the UCMJ. There are light hearted ways to integrate new service members without denigrating and hurting them. I found it deplorable in the 80's and it is even more horrendous now as it has been brought to light over the years in the military and schools across our country.

I will stop as I find this unconscionable. Those who prey on the meek or weak are those without self esteem themselves.

Response by Sgt David Hesser made Sep 10 at 2016 8:54 AM

Sgt David Hesser — Sat, 10 Sep 2016 08:54:10 -0400

When I joined the Corp in 1973 there was 100 of us in my platoon we went thru 9 drill instructors 3 where busted for going over the top we graduated 60, when I asked to use the head once I was made to stand up front until I peed my pants, I got gut punched several times thrashed everyday but I was treated no different than everyone else, did we have suicides yes, did we have guys trying anything to get out yes, was it the most miserable experience of my life yes, but I am glad I went thru it and do I understand now why they did it yes! I went from a 17 year old always in trouble no discipline or direction in my life, because of this training I have succeeded in the Marines and in life and I truly believe that because of training like that I have been able to handle (mentally) things that have come up in my life that the average person might have had a harder time handling. It is sad that this young man died but my feelings are if he found a way to graduate and ended up in infantry he could of gotten himself and a few others killed because he could not of handled it. I have always said that it takes different a type of person to be a Marine, first you have to start off being about 30 degrees off top dead center.

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Sep 11 at 2016 3:25 AM

Capt Chris McVeigh — Sun, 11 Sep 2016 03:25:06 -0400

Hazing can't be a right of passage as it is banned by the DoD, that's really all there is to the matter.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Sep 11 at 2016 2:26 PM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:26:13 -0400

There are harmless traditions that make an event meaningful and then there are harmful, insulting acts and acts for the purpose of humiliation. I think we can all tell the difference.

Response by Pat McCracken made Sep 11 at 2016 2:55 PM

Pat McCracken — Sun, 11 Sep 2016 14:55:00 -0400

I think there are other ways to give the right of passage other than hazing.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Jul 14 at 2017 1:51 AM

MAJ Raymond Haynes — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 01:51:55 -0400

I attended the Parris Island Social Club for Men starting May 1975. Plt. 151, !st BTN, 1st RTR. I even managed to graduate the Plt. Honorman. Although I was consumed by the training schedule, I still managed to make some observations about the program. The DI's were there for one reason, to make basic Marines, who they felt had what the Corp's requires to both succeed in their MOS school, and the Fleet Marine environment in general. To accomplish this task they had several tools at their disposal. The fat guys went to Fatbody Plt., the physically weak went to the PT Plt., and the questionable in loyalty to the Corps went to Motivation Plt. There were other tools the DI's used that were less "official" one of which was hazing. I only saw two types of recruits that were singled out for hazing, in addition to the Plt. hazing in general. The first type was the quality recruit, the type that was having no trouble with the program, and everybody knew they would graduate. The hazing was a badge of honor for them, kind of like someone in a frat saying "Thank You Sir, May I have another!" The second type was the recruit that did not really fit into any of the other groups, but the DI's wanted to put some additional pressure on them to see how they would react. As if the PI was not stressful enough, they were checking to see if they were close to their breaking point. I never saw a middle of the pack recruit singled out for a special dose of hazing, except of course for doing something stupid. It seemed to me that the DI's were just doing their job of weeding out the recruits that met the basic requirements, but had a poor probability of being successful in the FMF. I believe that this process still exists today. It may sound harsh, but if you put some extra pressure on a kid, and he deals with the issue by tossing himself off the third story stairwell, perhaps the method is valid. Although the end result was tragic, and very uncommon, it did indeed show (for lack of a better term) a character flaw that could have manifested itself into something more lethal when in close quarters with live ammunition.
I invite any other Marines to comment on both the PI and San Diego, and express their opinions about what I wrote, either positive or negative. S/F.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Jul 25 at 2017 6:09 AM

MAJ Raymond Haynes — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:09:11 -0400

Are there any Recon Lawyers out there that can explain in simple terms the difference in hazing and elite unit tradition as a right of passage?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 3:09 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:09:03 -0400

..Never believed in it then or now.

Response by SGT John Ball made Mar 29 at 2022 12:18 PM

SGT John Ball — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:18:23 -0400

I was hazed at my first unit. It was lighthearted stuff such as, getting a box of grid squares, a box of fallopian tubes and finding a Prick E-8 lol!