In your experience and opinion, which cadets make the best officers?

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:19:05 -0400

A lot of USMA grads just do their 5 and fly. VMI grads, as well as Citadel grads, stick around in the south, especially in the Guard. For the most part, they all produce some fine officers. They all go through a lot of hazing that really provide some character building. My hazing was done in the 82nd so my two years of ROTC was a flash. But there are some strong ROTC programs too.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 21 at 2018 8:20 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:20:45 -0400

Is hazing still allowed? It was when I attended Infantry OCS but I expect that it is no longer "politically correct"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2018 8:43 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 20:43:56 -0400

There were very good West Pointers and very good OCS, didn't experience active ROTC officers.
* The best officers I had experience with, were the OCS, coming from the ranks.
* Second was the Marine officer who changed to Army.
* I can't say West Pointer's were last, those officers were all in charge of the other two.
And, maybe I mentioned the West Pointer last because, That CO use to take a chair and stand on it to inspect for dust on top of your locker with a white glove, then he would gig you for dirt on the chair.
Salute!

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Mar 21 at 2018 9:08 PM

SGT Philip Roncari — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 21:08:03 -0400

In my very limited experience with Officers I found OCS trained worked closer to the troops,the few West Pointers I ran into seemed to be ticket punchers,I had the opportunity to train some ROTC cadets and they seemed very motivated and dedicated.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2018 9:10 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 21:10:01 -0400

ROTC officers, because they were educated in college rather than trained. ;)

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 21 at 2018 9:26 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 21:26:11 -0400

Sorry, I didn't see a poll when I first responded. Of course, I choose OCS. We used to have a joke about how to distinguish between a graduate of West Point, ROTC, and OCS. It had something to do with urinals. I don't remember VMI or the Citadel being mentioned.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Mar 21 at 2018 10:01 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 22:01:12 -0400

COL Private RallyPoint Member, I think each commissioning source produces its share of good officers and bad officers. I’m sure there are statistics that show which source produces the most general officers (most likely ROTC), but that’s more likely a function of numbers and not necessarily indicative of which source produces the best officers.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Mar 21 at 2018 10:30 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 22:30:31 -0400

The ones that make the best Officers are the ones who listen yet don't waffle. The ones willing to put it all on the line when they are right and the ones that take responsibility for their mistakes. Then again you can say the same things about NCO's and lower enlisted when it comes to being the best Leaders and troops.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2018 11:26 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 23:26:28 -0400

Gosh it's all hit or miss. 3 of my absolutely favorite officers to work for were West Pointers. Alot are meh though as well. Enlisted Personnel tend to favor the officers that were prior enlisted because only they can understand the type of BS we've suffered through.

Response by Alec Roman made Mar 21 at 2018 11:29 PM

Alec Roman — Wed, 21 Mar 2018 23:29:18 -0400

Not to toot my own horn but the AROTC program here at Campbell University is amazing. Being such close proximity to Bragg, we get a great host of cadre and cadets (This coming year we are slated to take on 15 ADOs and in my year alone we have cadets from SF, Civil Afairs, Infantry, Admin, etc) so we get a really amazing variety of experience and that defiantly helps progression cadets. We have about 90-100 cadets in the company and commission around 12-15 a year. Earned the McCarthur award 2 years in a row as well.

Response by CW3 Jeff Held made Mar 22 at 2018 12:43 AM

CW3 Jeff Held — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 00:43:30 -0400

I would not venture to try and pigeonhole any source of commission. I have served with some shit-hot leaders from all of these officer producing institutions. I’ve also endured the misfortune of serving with some real knuckleheads from many of these institutions.

I am partial to West Point. My brother is a 1976 WP grad. I applied at the encouragement of my Basic Training Commander but was subsequently turned down because my high school grades were not competitive. I still enjoyed a 21 year career!

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Mar 22 at 2018 12:52 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 00:52:41 -0400

Being non Army I do have an interesting take as I was at West Point for Beast Barracks and subsequently they didn't like my eyes. I've met up with many ring knockers from all the services. My take is all departures, regardless of source, has much to do with the experience isn't what was advertised. By advertise, it's in the mind of the SM. We'd always have to reprogram ring knockers to live down to the real world. The long term immersion in military school creates an expectation and that expectation isn't routinely met. ROTC and OCS, on the other hand, likely leaves the Grad with fewer expectations, that when violated, causes them to vote with their feet. Opinion? Yes. Accurate? Who knows. Came to my mind over cognac.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2018 1:11 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:11:44 -0400

I have no idea but I voted VMI because of GOA G. C. Marshall.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Mar 22 at 2018 1:23 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:23:51 -0400

I was Army ROTC then went USAF OTS, I actually knew some extremely good grads from both, the Army ROTC unit unfortunateoy no longer exists, I was at OTS when it'd been at Lackland, before it got moved to !Maxwell, I found an interesting site I'll try to send in I think you might find of interest as well....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Mar 22 at 2018 1:26 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:26:50 -0400

https://www.ocsfoundation.org/

I thought this an interesting site, as I'd said, it isn't complete, it leaves off Army WOCS, as well as the OIS type programs, however, the discussions are frequently worthwhile, I'd found, I might also send it in generally, now thst I think about it, others might find it of interest, perhaps....

OCS Foundation

SERVICES FOR: Candidates Alumni Officer Families

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Mar 22 at 2018 1:36 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:36:07 -0400

Oh, purely as a thought, one suggestionnfor the poll, ifmyoud want to include it in future, there are also the maritime colleges, the state ones, not USMMA Kings Point, one of my brothers went there I frequently kick myself I didn't go SUNY Maritime, I have friends who did, just a thought, of course...I know you included that under state, I only mention it as you'd mentioned VMI and Citadel by name, my best friend from USAF was VMI...

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Mar 22 at 2018 1:37 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:37:22 -0400

And also the military junior colleges like Valley Ofrge, for example, though there are sevl others I'd seen listed on Wikipedia...just figured I'd add that...

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Mar 22 at 2018 1:55 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 01:55:55 -0400

My personal opinion is that a college degree does not make you a good officer. The military academies provide an excellent education to those academically superior to the rest of us but that still does not make a good officer. I'm bloody damn intelligent but I am not a book worm. I believe I could have been a good officer. A primary trait of all the good leaders I encountered was a slowly disappearing trait ~ Common Sense. The ability to lead comes from not the ability to bark orders but to inspire his subordinates to provide their best...not just for them but for the whole, be it at squad level or Chief of Staff. IMO, I have seen lots of zoomies that were not worth the powder it would take to blow their noses but have also seen some damn fine officers and leaders who did not come from those excellent academic military academies.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 22 at 2018 5:56 AM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 05:56:06 -0400

I believe it has far more to do with the raw material going into the front end of the commissioning program than the commissioning program itself. I will point out two significant differences that involved a very small minority of officers (a handful in every battalion sized unit) that I saw in the Marine Corps.

Some small amount of 2ndLts that went through ROTC/OCS had a problem recognizing that Privates and Lance Corporals are not frat pledges, and are not there for their entertainment. I never saw this among those who attended military academies (including VMI, Citadel etc.)

Most of the 2ndLts that went through the military academies (including VMI, Citadel etc.) never lived on their own without a strict regimen. A significant minority had a period of adjustment where they had to learn how to take care of themselves out in the world, and to not abuse their new found freedom on liberty.

Most of this in both groups was shaken out after the first six months in the FMF.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Mar 22 at 2018 7:13 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 07:13:43 -0400

I had several C O's that went through O C S training and turned out to be great officers.

Response by SFC Stephen Atchley made Mar 22 at 2018 10:23 AM

SFC Stephen Atchley — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 10:23:03 -0400

I found that each commissioning source provided differing results. The West Pointers tended to be much more Army oriented and sharper from an operational and tactical sense. Particularly in the early stages of their careers. Officers from the other sources were usually more receptive to the guidance and mentoring of their NCOs. The Academy crop tended to be a little too sure of themselves.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 22 at 2018 10:59 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 10:59:56 -0400

I believe it's not the commissioning source, but the individual Service Member that makes a good officer. I taught Air Force pilot training for 3 years. We had students from AFROTC, Air Force Academy, and OTS. For the first 6 to 12 weeks the Academy grads and prior service officers had a little bit of an advantage. They had been part of the military for several years before commissioning, so they could cope better with the training environment. After that time, all of the students leveled out in terms of their capability to deal with pilot training in general. The student's differences in personal ability and initiative governed their success as student pilots. An Academy Grad could fail to study for academics as easily as a liberal arts major from a state university AFROTC program; same for a prior-service OCS grad.

In the real world of a flying squadron, I seldom knew an officer's commissioning source. There were always a few "ring knockers" who made sure everybody knew they were graduates of the Academy--most Academy grads did wear their class ring when not flying. Sometimes they created a small group of people looking out for each other. More often, field grade Academy grads just tended to play "did you ever meet" or "how things have changed since I graduated" with their fellow "Zoomies." The net result was negligible.

If you look at biographies of AF Generals on AF.mil, you'll see a fairly even distribution of officers by commissioning source making O-7 or above. Academy grads have some advantage, but it's not overwhelming to the point of "all others need not apply."

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2018 12:54 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:54:54 -0400

I've been expecting this question, and it's a good one Sir.

I know it is aimed at US Army officers, but the question is often asked in sister services, such as the Navy. Being an Annapolis grad, I'd like to say Academy types are the "best", but experience has taught me that a "good" officer is probably less a product of their commissioning source, than the attitudes and ethics developed both during and before their time there.

Perhaps the finest JO it was ever my pleasure to serve with was a prior-enlisted Marine OCS graduate...as was one of the "worst". I've had classmates who (in my opinion) excelled and are still very respected, and those who fared less favorably. On cruise, I found little difference between myself and my ROTC peers.

I do feel that the obvious differences in the programs leaves their mark. For example, I wouldn't dare to suggest that the training is equivalent to what any else experiences their first four years of service. However, it is logical to presume that someone who has "ate, slept and breathed" the experience 24/7 for four years enters the "Fleet" with different perceptions than someone from ROTC. Similarly, it's very logical to presume that someone who has served as an enlisted person brings a unique perspective regardless of which pipeline they commission through.

Ultimately, whether or not a cadet or midshipman graduates as arrogant, presumptuous and/or "burnt out"...or in contrast, humble, focused and eager...again, comes down to individual personality.

Being the son of an Army NCO, I had my own unique sensitivities, and in some ways, this helped me...in others, it hurt me. I entered the Fleet very aware of how little I didn't know, and very willing to learn. However, I also came in with a natural desire to "please" and earn the acceptance of my Division. In one sense, I certainly learned a great deal, and had opportunities to help Sailors in our Division...on the other, there are times I may have let things lapse, or embraced an attitude of ambivalence with the other officers in the Wardroom.

I likely tried too hard to be a "rebel" against the "suck", and that may have made me some lifelong friends...but possibly cost me a longer career. If I had it to do over again, there's little doubt I'd have enlisted for some period of time before pursuing a commission.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 22 at 2018 3:27 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 15:27:46 -0400

After 30+ years on active duty I could argue for all of the institutes and ROTC. Their are great leaders at all levels form each entity, and unfortunately there are not so great leaders form all as well. Thank you for your service.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Mar 22 at 2018 11:17 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 23:17:55 -0400

The best cadets are from the US Coast Guard Academy. There is a long tradition of fully integrating cadets into real billets from non-rates to junior officers, not just training positions during summer programs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2018 1:32 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 01:32:17 -0400

I have had the pleasure of never having a "bad" Platoon Leader. All of my PLs except one have also been ROTC Cadets, but ultimately their differences came down to their personality and leadership style. The one PL I had who was an OCS officer was definitely of a different breed though sir. He was more akin to a hard charging NCO than a young officer. I have noticed that the main quality that has set them apart is who they were each willing to learn from. Some young officers I've worked with are humble enough to accept that even the newest private may have something to teach them. To me, that particular quality has set LTs (and even NCOs for that matter) apart more than how they got where they are.

Response by MSgt Gerald Orvis made Mar 23 at 2018 8:10 AM

MSgt Gerald Orvis — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 08:10:49 -0400

In my experience, officers who gained their commission from the ranks (former enlisted) were the best officers I saw, as long as they didn't forget where they came from. Some of them were also the worst - from the "Captain Bligh School of Leadership" - technically proficient, maybe, but definitely with a chip on their shoulders toward enlisted people now that they had that commission. ROTC officers were okay, as were academy grads, although I found a lot of the latter seemed to have an aristocratic sense of entitlement due to having graduated from one of the military academies (mostly the Naval Academy, in my experience). Marine Warrant Officers and Limited Duty Officers were, in my observation, mostly the salt of the earth - none better overall, but limitted by their commissions.

Response by SPC John Decker made Apr 1 at 2018 11:21 AM

SPC John Decker — Sun, 01 Apr 2018 11:21:20 -0400

OCS. The few I had experience with, while on active duty, were more liked by enlisted personnel and less liked by other officers.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Apr 1 at 2018 12:43 PM

SFC Francisco Rosario — Sun, 01 Apr 2018 12:43:46 -0400

It is my experience that those who were prior enlisted were the best officers that i had the privilege of serving with. The reason i say this is because those officers understood what is was like to be an enlisted Soldier. The only other exception was a West Point Graduate who i had the privilege to serve under his command, not just once but twice. He was my Company Commander and years later he was my Battalion Commander. This officer went on to become the Vice Cheif of Staff of the United States Army, Gen John F. Campbell.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Apr 1 at 2018 4:03 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Sun, 01 Apr 2018 16:03:29 -0400

I don't think there is one source that provides better quality. ROTC program provide about 70% of the Army's officers so you will get the entire spectrum of quality. People talk about OCS officers being better because of their enlisted service but one of the most incompetent officers I ever worked with came from that route. I have also seen outstanding USMA grads along with those who felt entitled because of coming from there. Having worked with officers from all sources in my career, it really comes to how the person is as a leader. I believe that the enlisted Soldiers really don't care that much about where they received their commission as long as they listen, learn, and lead by example.

Response by COL Col George Lind made Apr 1 at 2018 8:14 PM

COL Col George Lind — Sun, 01 Apr 2018 20:14:43 -0400

Listen and consider what your NCO’s are saying! Then take the best course to accomplish the mission!

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Apr 2 at 2018 7:05 AM

MAJ Haris Balcinovic — Mon, 02 Apr 2018 07:05:05 -0400

As Lt Col Jim Coe pointed out I think it's the individual not their commissioning source. I've had a fantastic leader and mentor, who was USMA graduate, but on the other hand I've known USMA graduate who is a complete waste of oxygen.
I myself don't fall into any of the options above as my source is direct commission (direct appointment through officers ascessions program). I've heard on numerous occasions from the enlisted side of the world "oh sir the best officers are mustangs", but I've got ROTC friends who can run circles around all of us.
Sure the knowledge and experience count but if you don't have dedication it's all for naught.

Response by SFC Michael Morse made Apr 2 at 2018 8:31 PM

SFC Michael Morse — Mon, 02 Apr 2018 20:31:29 -0400

Mustangs have ALWAYS been the best Officers, IMHO.

Response by SSG Nathan Blair made Jun 5 at 2018 10:14 AM

SSG Nathan Blair — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 10:14:08 -0400

The best leaders are first and foremost good followers. People that direct and never demand. It is the spoiled, entitled mentality that gets people killed (in any business). The compassionate, commensurate leader who truly cares about their people and knows about their people, who they are, what they are going through who are the best leaders. Their people in turn, live them as a leader and would go to any lengths to do anything for their leader.

Response by SSG Tom Pike made Jun 10 at 2018 10:10 PM

SSG Tom Pike — Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:10:18 -0400

Best officers I ever worked for were those that were enlisted first. It's one of the reasons I really think the US military needs to rethink their rank structure. If I was king I'd get rid of the senior enlisted ranks (E-7 and above), I'd increase the number of Warrant Officers for senior technical positions, and there would be no butter bars right out of college or the academy. All officers would do 2 years enlisted and make E-4 before they could commission. The way the Army is going now they are putting promotion point preference on civilian higher education for E-5 even. If you are going to require your senior enlisted to have college degrees you might as well make them officers.

Response by SSG Tom Pike made Apr 13 at 2019 8:02 PM

SSG Tom Pike — Sat, 13 Apr 2019 20:02:16 -0400

Best officers I ever had, bar none, were previously enlisted that went OCS.

If I was king I would get rid of the senior NCO positions of E-7, E-8, E-9 and 2nd and 1st Lieutenants. By the time you are an E-7, 8, 9 you aren't training soldiers anymore you are doing paperwork and LT's spend all their time learning how to lead. Soldiers would all go enlisted first, no entrance into military academies until you did 4 years enlisted first. Academies would be 4 year program to commission officers as Captains. Or you could go ROTC or OCS. I'd also increase Warrant Officer opportunities for people who wanted to stay technical instead of managerial. So if you made a career out of the Army you could go enlisted to E-6 then choose Officer or Warrant Officer tracks.