Is a 3/3 a bad NCOER? Is it worth even fighting?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 21:56:23 -0500

My rating chain is already almost two weeks late submitting my NCOER, when finally last week My rater, senior rater, reviewer and I signed my NCOER which was a 2/3. Now I'm being told it was the wrong NCOER and that it had errors and also that my bullets are not strong enough for a 2/3 and its becoming a 3/3. Is this something I can or even should fight? I mean, I'm being told that the 1SG and CSM guidance to my raters. When I first found out I was getting a 2/3 I was told it was because I canceled my ALC class because of family issues. Now they are changing it to a 3/3. I don't know what to do, I'm afraid of the repercussions if I ask for a commanders inquiry or submit an appeal. Is it worth it? What can or should I do?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 7:26 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:26:09 -0500

There is an appeals process outlined in AR 623-3 and DA PAM 623-3, but you will need evidence to prove your rating is inconsistent. Hard to give you more advice without more details. Truthfully? As a SGT, and with the new NCOER coming out soon, unless there are blatantly inaccurate or false bullets, don't sweat a 3/3. By the time you get looked at for SFC, this NCOER will have little to no effect on the board. Just ensure you continue to grow and improve. Your sequential NCOERs need to show improvement.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 4:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 16:57:19 -0500

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member you are partially correct, but more misinformed. Under the new system, there is no requirement for a rater to submit 50 percent of their NCOs as a 1/1. Additionally, there will be 3 different versions of the NCOER depending on who the rated NCO is (1 for SGT, 1 for SSG-MSG, 1 for SGM-CSM). For Senior Raters, they cannot exceed 49 percent as "MOST QUALIFIED", which is how OERs are currently done. Raters will still utilize the bullet format, but S/R will be able to utilize a narrative format. As in the current system, the new one also encourages quantifiable comments to justify the rating (this is part where you were partially correct). Your BN or BDE S1 should be holding NCOPD to educate the force about the changes. HRC has already put out a second slide show to assist in this. For my unit, I will be conducting a class this month.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 8:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:17:56 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member , I am not there but what I can tell you that it is your right to request an Inquiry if you believe the wrong thing is being done on your evaluation. Remember it is "Your Evaluation."

The proper process is Inquiry and then Appeal. Your appeal will have much more weight if you have a favorable inquiry.

Be sure to know AR 623-3 inside and out. become an informed Leader as most raters utilize intimidation in these matters.

With that said, I agree with some of the other comments on here. As long as you did not get a relief for cause you should not have to be too concerned with the evaluation. Of course I would go outside your unit to get advice from a Senior NCO, preferably a CSM/SGM who has sat on a Board before.

Whatever you do STAY MOTIVATED! That will irritate those who try to bring you down more than complaining or not working hard. If you allow that to happen then they have you in their pocket. You become the "Puppet."

I wish the best for you.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 8:28 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:28:42 -0500

A 3-3 is still a good NCOER. Is a 2-2 or a 2-1 better yes. Most reviewers I know want to see counciling that supports a 3-3 or less but non the less it's not going to destroy your career. If you have a no in a values box you have a problem.

Take charge of your career as the next rsting period begins. Ask for your counciling to occur and be interactive with it. Ask that the support form is used and keep a copy handy for yourself to write down your achievements. Ask along the way if you were going to rate me today what would you give me? And make sure you do the same with your senior rater. This is your career and how your ncoer turns out shouldn't be a surprise.

Don't fight it...your not going to get far. Instead ask why they felt that way and if possible provide some bullets for yourself. You might have done something great no one thought of.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 2:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:48:07 -0400

My first question is where are your quarterly counselings. If you have not been properly counseled then your rater is wrong and you definitely have a valid complaint and grounds to appeal the NCOER. The next issue is NO ONE can tell the rater what you write on your NCOER so if the 1SG and CSM are doing that then they are wrong as well and again you have a valid reason for appeal. Although canceling your ALC did not help you it should not be the primary reason for a lower rating if your overall performance was at or above the standard. The best thing you could do is read the regulations about NCOERs and the appeal process.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 4:56 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:56:19 -0400

Do you have all the signatures on this NCOER were you are rated as 2/3?

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 5:27 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:27:04 -0400

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, I might be late to the party, but do you have quarterly counselings from your rater identifying your weak areas and detailed plans on how you and your rater are going to work together to make you better? Do you have a working support form detailing your raters expectations of you and what needs to be done to earn a 1/1, 1/2, 2/2....etc? If you don't have those or any negative 4856's in your file during your rated period, then I would fight it.

Response by SFC Stacy Harris made Aug 19 at 2015 12:41 PM

SFC Stacy Harris — Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:41:18 -0400

A 2/3 doesnt even make sense. You current performance is a 2...but your potential is a 3? So your potential performance is less than what you are doing now?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2015 2:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:59:52 -0400

If you read the reg a 3 is promote with peers 2 is promote ahead of peers and a 1 is prompte now. So I 3 actually is a good performance ncoer now I would rather get a 3/3 than a 2/3. Basically a 2/3 is saying this guy performed above his peers but his future potential he will digress and his performance will be worse.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Aug 19 at 2015 10:37 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:37:49 -0400

If you do not have counseling statements during rated period to justify 3/3, then you have reasonable grounds to fight this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 8:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:24:48 -0400

What did your quarterly counseling's say? or Did you have any quarterly counseling's? How were you rated a 2/3? Your currently a 2 and have the potential of a 3? The problem is, if the NCOER is loaded into IPERMS, it becomes permanent record. If you appeal the NCOER and your appeal is in your favor, your appeal goes into your IPERMS, but the NCOER still remains. Sounds like your rater and senior rater need to get more familiar with the regulations. Now if you have quarterly counseling's reflecting a poor performance, and you haven't attempted to correct the areas your falling short on, then the NCOER is justified most likely a 3/3. Without any more information, I can't really say if your leadership is doing you wrong.

Response by SGT Brandon Bergeron made Aug 20 at 2015 8:56 AM

SGT Brandon Bergeron — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:56:18 -0400

To help with your NCOER start writing down things you've done through out the year. Canceling an NCO course is bad cause they kinda hold it against you. Which is retarded. But look into it more to see if its worth fighting.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 9:26 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:26:58 -0400

I see that da Pam you posted is this used with the AR for NCOERs cause I see it says USAREC on the bottom or is it just form recruiting

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 2:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:58:07 -0400

I believe I had read that the actual appeal rate (turn over0 was 3% percent and remember. "I don't like my rating" really isn't grounds for an appeal. Also think of later effects. I do not know where you are at in your career or the full story. Also, ask someone what happens when an NCOER is appealed, it isn't necessarily a " do and over" and now you get a shiny sparkly NCOER.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 3:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:24:59 -0400

Let's be real herre. You have 90 days to submit a commanders inquiry to your commander. Open the reg and read what's required. Bottom line, it isn't a bad NCOER; just not a great one. Sounds like you did just enough to get by and nothing excellent. If you did things that warrent an excellence that hasn't been captured, get with your rater. Don't want to be a dick, but you're in charge of your ratings through out the year. You gotta perform; unless your rating chain sucks, your 1SG and CSM blessed off on this already.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 7:10 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:10:54 -0400

An appeal won't hurt you. The main thing to look at is: are the bullets accurate? Do they tell the story of your past year? If they are, then look at whether or not they substantiate a higher rating. Use a non objective third party (no friends, vested leaders). At the end of the day, the reviewer has 0% say in what is written. It's the Rater/senior rater's assessment of the rates NCO. Find a seasoned NCO and ask them for their honest opinion. Hope it helps

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 7:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:48:32 -0400

SGT Godoy, remember "This is your career". In the big scheme of themes, an evaluation is a snapshot of YOU. Board members may consider the rating scheme for a moment, but only a moment. Because, the bullets are all they have at that moment to review you. A CSM who sat on many boards told me that Board Members already know that it takes an 'Act of God' for most appeals to be successful, as the Appeal Boards automatically stick with the mindset that the unit leadership 'will do the right thing'. With that in mind, if you do decide to submit an appeal … make it a solid appeal (recommend that Legal reviews your packet and find one/two who care about what they are doing); that one/two will most likely give you good guidance for how you present your situation - they will not lead you. It is true that your quarterly counselings are an important factor along with supporting documents, and letters of support, etc. Read the regulation on the Commander's Inquiry. In the regulation/DA Pam, the appeal is supposed to refute bullets. However, that seasoned CSM (mentor) and the NOCER Help Desk (if they still have that) both said Appeal Board Members also want to know about the environment. If in the worse case scenario, the appeal was 'unsuccessful' at least the Selection Board Members would see that you took your career seriously, which means a lot.

I will share one last bit of advise regarding evaluations that I received. It is a very small regulation, on a very important aspect of our careers. Print it, Read it, Learn it, keep it close, and refer to it often. This will make you better informed for both you and the ones that you will evaluate later. Evaluations are supposed to be objective, i.e. not emotional. Well, we already know it is not often handled that way.

Hold your head up. Be encouraged. Stay motivated. This too will pass.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 11:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:00:29 -0400

That's not good. Personally I think that they are either trying to screw you, don't know how to evaluate or you had a lack luster performance. I would not sign it. I would ask for my initial and quarterly 2166-8-1's. But that was on you to get those from the jump. Without those they can not give you a poor NCOER. Is it your first?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 11:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 23:02:51 -0400

Dude....the potential should always be equal to or greater than the current rating.........IE....2/1.....2/2......you should never have a a 2/1.....or 3/2....it doesn't make any sense.....I get so tired of hearing dumb people who are not able to interpret "current" vs "potential".....and give soldiers a lower rating on their potential as opposed to their current simply because they are unable to distinguish between the definitions. Let me make this clear....a 1/2 does not make any sense what so ever!.....it says that you are currently excellent, but your potential to excell at a higher position is great.....not excellent......you see what I'm saying.....now as far as your particular situation... .if your leadership doesn't have the counseling statements to back up their positions, then you grounds for a fight....however....if you have stupid stuff throughout your rating period that you were found liable for without any credible evidence in your favor.....then you kinda don't have a leg to stand on...

Response by SFC Mike Lewis made Aug 22 at 2015 12:44 PM

SFC Mike Lewis — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:44:20 -0400

According to the reg a 3 block is successful. Sounds like you're a mid - pack young NCO. There's nothing wrong with that but your rater and senior rater don't see you as a rock star. Figure out what it takes to set yourself apart and get there.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 9:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:26:18 -0500

I had a similar issue w/my last NCOER. Coming off of heart surgery, my Rater and Senior Rater gave me a 2/2. That was acceptable, due to me being out of commission for awhile and not being able to give my best, like I normally do. It was reviewed by someone outside of my rating scheme and they recommended a 3/3, even though I'm getting out via MEB...