Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?

2021-06-29T08:01:39-04:00

Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!

I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.

Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....

CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.

At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.

That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.

Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)

Thanks again!!!

Professional Development question for the senior leaders:

I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.

And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.

But I got to thinking...........

If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?

In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....

(Or don't).

EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Jun 29 at 2021 8:13 AM

2021-06-29T08:13:59-04:00

I see both parties as being in the wrong. And senior leadership fails if they don't make them understand that like parents, all disagreements should be behind closed doors.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jun 29 at 2021 8:16 AM

2021-06-29T08:16:57-04:00

Maybe because I grew up with a Master Sergeant Father, but there is a time and place to make corrections and in front of a junior officers subordinates or peers is not one of them. I have taken my battalion commander aside and pointed this out to him, he had a bad habit of lighting up Junior leaders in front of the troops. That one turned out OK, he did recognize that it wasn't professional and tried to correct that behavior. I have a lot of respect for that action.
If I had seen the CSM do the same thing, I would have corrected him also. If he wanted to give me crap about it, I would have took it up with his Boss, the BNCO. There are idiots at every rank, correcting bad behavior is part of your job.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jun 29 at 2021 8:24 AM

2021-06-29T08:24:10-04:00

It all depends on the context of the specific situation. Sometimes it is the Lt who oversteps and overreaches. Sometimes its the Sgt Maj who goes too far and refuses to backdown. I was in for 11 1/2 years and saw variations where either party or both were at fault. It's a delicate dance to make that relationship function correctly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 8:31 AM

2021-06-29T08:31:05-04:00

I have actually never seen or even heard of a CSM chewing up a junior leader in front of Soldiers. I've definitely seen a few say, "Hey LT, come over for a minute" and have a mentorship moment with them

Response by SFC Wendell Pruitt made Jun 29 at 2021 8:41 AM

2021-06-29T08:41:27-04:00

In situations like this that I encountered the CSM ask the Lt to step into his office or a nearby vacant room and when the door reopened the Lt was a changed man in all but 1 instance, In that one instance they came out together and proceeded directly to the Commanders office and then the Lt came out a Changed man......

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jun 29 at 2021 8:54 AM

2021-06-29T08:54:21-04:00

One, yes I've heard the stories, but never about a CSM I know or spoke to.
Two, I've never seen a CSM chew out an LT in public, closed doors with a select few in the room, yes but even that is a rare thing.

So has it happened? I'm sure, and it would have been wrong.
Did some LT order the CSM to the position of attention? I'm sure it happened ....Id guess either the CSM laughed and walked away (not what I would do) or went to POA and took the response from the LT,,,, realizing they were in the wrong to have created the situation to start with and salvaging that with doing the "right" thing in front of others was a best of a shitty situation. Once the LT had his say, Id quietly provide that I was going to go see the BN CDR, and he might want to come along

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 29 at 2021 8:59 AM

2021-06-29T08:59:07-04:00

I learned a lot from Senior NCOs during my career. My early career was as an aircrew member where things are a bit more informal in terms of customs and courtesy. Flight engineers and loadmasters taught me a lot about the C130. Their understanding of how the aircraft really worked made me a better pilot and officer.

A couple of early lessons: show respect for enlisted people by using proper forms of address. They worked hard to earn those stripes. Support your crew members when they say the aircraft is “broke” and maintenance needs to fix it. Don’t override them unless the mission absolutely requires it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 11:33 AM

2021-06-29T11:33:31-04:00

Saw it once, and you seldom see a CSM without the BC being nearby. So of course the BC wanted to know why his CSM was in the position he was in. I didn't stick around, not my business.

Additionally I had a cadet try to get me to salute them. I did not, and told the cadet to get some time in or some actual rank and try again. The cadet was insistent, and this brought the attention of a nearby MAJ who was passing through. The cadet did not have a good time after that.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 12:38 PM

2021-06-29T12:38:21-04:00

I think this something that happens in theory. When I was an LT I have been corrected by my CSM but it was very respectful. I couldn't imagine a LT trying to lock up a NCO.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 29 at 2021 1:58 PM

2021-06-29T13:58:06-04:00

One time I was at the Ft Riley WTB. This E-6 must have been a NG soldier because he told me, "I fucking own you." to me. We were behind a formation and the jackass wanted to argue with me in front of everyone. I told the stupid MOFO he better stand down. He was so stupid and ignorant he wanted to argue with me for a couple minutes in front of everyone. The idiot finally stood down, and he was lucky I was not vindictive.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jun 29 at 2021 2:26 PM

2021-06-29T14:26:09-04:00

There's a time and place for an ASS chewing. You praise in public, criticize in private

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jun 29 at 2021 2:31 PM

2021-06-29T14:31:41-04:00

Go to your corner and read your book, silenly

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 4:18 PM

2021-06-29T16:18:29-04:00

I never considered these to be anything more than "stories" or as we in the Navy call them, "Sea Stories", Most E-8' & E-9's display much better discretion than than the "stories" relate.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jun 29 at 2021 9:37 PM

2021-06-29T21:37:09-04:00

YES. THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU

A CSM could drill a new 2LT a new one. Badly. In front of troops.

The 2LT could certainly be in the wrong. However the CSM, in this specific instance, would be in the wrong...err...wronger.

If this happens to you (and you are the 2LT) I recommend the following:
1. Give the CSM your full and complete attention and call his/her attention to it
2. Listen to the CSM; note the useful information, particularly what was specifically wrong
3. Acknowledge the points made by the CSM; make sure he/she understands that you understand
4. If the CSM acknowledges your rank, or addresses you as "sir", you acknowledge the CSM's rank*
5. Make a commitment to corrective action; make a plan and put it into action ASAP
6. Speak to the CSM's CO; relate the facts of the matter without recrimination or finger-pointing
7. Ask the CO if the CSM's actions were consistent with the CO's standards of conduct
8. Give the CO your full and undivided attention, and fully receive any comments the CO might have
9. If the CSM has a change of attitude, be prepared to forgive; a handshake would be appropriate.

* The CSM might say something like "'Yes'...aaaand..." in a way to make you acknowledge his rank, or something like that. You can do something like "Yes, and [acknowledgement of the point that the CSM just made]" If the CSM pushes the matter of acknowledging his rank, you can ask (politely) if he/she would like to do the same. In any case, remain calm and never, never respond to anger with anger.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2021 3:03 AM

2021-06-30T03:03:24-04:00

I think it's a scenario all young LT's would like to happen, but really doesn't happen in the wild.

I have pushed back on a CSM when I was an LT, but that was over the phone between us, but I was 46 at the time so it was one old man to another.

*****
IG complaint came his way regarding someone in my company. Turns out the source of the complaint was a result of the Battalion staff not acting on my action I sent up to them twice, under two different BC's and staff of the CSM. So any IG complaint coming my way was only going to land right back in his lap after I forwarded IG the e-mails and date signed CAC forms.

So I had to stop his rant before he got too far along.

*****
I think generally, CSM's are well versed in the ways to pounce on a Jr officer. Usually their LTC/COL is in in ear shot.

I remember a CSM holding a brief and a few LTC's were sitting WAY in the back. CSM asked them professionally to come forward, and they balked and gave him lip. The CSM's COL stepped on stage and they complied.

Response by SSG Dale London made Jun 30 at 2021 10:27 AM

2021-06-30T10:27:58-04:00

The only time I saw anything even remotely like this was when I saw a brand new 2LT try to brace a CSM for not saluting. The were both in class A's and the CSM had this really pretty light blue ribbon with stars on it. The CSM looked down at this ribbon and pointed at it. Then he said something like, "Sonny, when you see one of these, you do the saluting."
The LT looked at it blankly and the CSM told him what it was, whereupon the LT snapped a crisp salute and the CSM returned it.
This is the real version of events but, if I've had a couple of beers, I usually finish by saying the CSM gave him a dime and told him to call his mother. "Tell her you're in the real army now."
But in truth the CSM was much more gracious than that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2021 4:23 PM

2021-06-30T16:23:12-04:00

never saw it that way but in iraq i saw a csm get out of his vic and try to tell a major how to travel with his convoy csm still directing traffic my guess

Response by Sgt Larry Irvine made Jun 30 at 2021 4:36 PM

2021-06-30T16:36:28-04:00

Unless life or mission is at risk, both are wrong.
Correction at that level is done discretely.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jul 1 at 2021 5:27 AM

2021-07-01T05:27:32-04:00

"Praise in public, criticize in private". The incident describes poor professionalism on both parts.

Response by SSG Russell Moon made Jul 1 at 2021 12:43 PM

2021-07-01T12:43:57-04:00

To me I think it may be a sign of bigger problems in the BN of the SGM won’t respect the rank and the LT won’t respect the authority.

Response by SFC Wendell Pruitt made Jul 1 at 2021 12:59 PM

2021-07-01T12:59:44-04:00

I had a few interesting situations that were similar to this in chain of events, In the Command I was serving with our structure had Majors as Battery Commanders, Captains as Platoon Leaders and Lt's as Assistant Platoon Leaders/FCO's , As a SSG Platoon Sgt I had a Captain who decided to counsel a soldier about a small problem that came down the chain, She did this without talking to me or even informing me it was needed. I walked in mid session and ask what was going on, She said I am counseling this soldier, I turned to the Soldier and said step outside for just a minute, I then told the Captain that She was out of bounds and doing my job. Her response was She would counsel any soldier anytime She felt it was necessary, I said No you only have one Soldier (Me) to Counsel unless I ask for your assistance in a specific matter. There was some back and forth between us and I then opened the door and dismissed the Soldier back to his duties and told him I would talk with him a bit later as the Captain and I had to go meet with the 1sg, We both went to the 1sg and went behind closed doors there, The Commanders door was open and He was busy with something else but when he heard the content of the Conversation between the 1sg and the Captain He stepped to his door and called the Captain in his office alone, When the door reopened She departed and the Commander called me and the 1sg in, He stated that the Captain would not be counseling Soldiers without my knowledge and that if I had further problems with it to simply let him know and He would deal with it appropriately. When I got back to my desk I found 3 folders containing Soldier Counseling She had done and a note saying She had went to the Motor pool to check on Platoon Equipment readiness with the Motor Officer...

Response by MSgt Matt Hancock made Jul 2 at 2021 1:28 PM

2021-07-02T13:28:18-04:00

As a senior NCO (who also worked in a training environment) I had the occasion to call many a junior officer "aside" to discuss what I felt was a bad call. I made every attempt to keep such occasions as private as possible for a couple of reasons. 1) Out of courtesy and respect for the individual's rank. 2) I believed that criticism of someone's behavior/comments should be done in privacy (unless it is a training situation such as being an instructor when all will benefit from the remedial actions). I don't care the rank of the individual, if you feel they need a "word" respect the person and you won't go too far astray.

Response by SGT Greg Gold made Jul 11 at 2021 10:02 PM

2021-07-11T22:02:30-04:00

I think the OP's scenario is an exercise in quantum Army mechanics. While it COULD happen, it's never been seen in nature.

Response by 1stSgt Ronald Sheps made Jul 20 at 2021 1:48 PM

2021-07-20T13:48:38-04:00

Guilty. I felt the men were being beaten down in an effort to break them and force respect when it was way too overboard. And opened my mouth. All these years later, I still regret my handling of the situation. He was way more gracious than I in the resolution, but I did get taken to the woodshed.

Response by 1LT Howard Foss made Jul 31 at 2021 3:21 PM

2021-07-31T15:21:30-04:00

my battalion sergeant major always would start the conversation with "lt have you got a minute?"
this man had been in the army longer than i have been alive.
i valued what he had to say, and he saved me more than once.
he was the best nco, the very best.

Response by SSgt Robert Van Buhler III made Jul 31 at 2021 5:32 PM

2021-07-31T17:32:56-04:00

Never in from of the troops or public. Always one on one. That goes or an NCO or officers subordinates as well. Except would be to prevent immediate physical danger. I can't Se it any other way

Response by SFC Michael Wilkins made Aug 1 at 2021 9:08 AM

2021-08-01T09:08:26-04:00

While I was in I never saw a CSM chew out an LT but I have seen him pull the LT out and explain to him where he went wrong. The LT was smart enough to understand that he was wrong. But I retired in 1990 maybe we were a different breed.

Response by SPC Tony Bass made Aug 1 at 2021 12:17 PM

2021-08-01T12:17:41-04:00

I’ve watched the 1SG of the unit I was have a mentoring moment with a 2nd LT and taught him an important lesson in leadership. Never disrespected him once and made him a better Lieutenant.

Response by 1stSgt Dennis Berger made Aug 1 at 2021 1:30 PM

2021-08-01T13:30:16-04:00

Piss poor behavior from the E-9. As senior NCOs, particularly first sergeants and CSM/CCMs, we need to help these young officers grow. Publicly belittling is the opposite of that. As a first sergeant I chewed on many a young officer, even my commander, but only I public and only in the e spirit of making them better officers.

Response by SGT Jeff Everhart made Aug 1 at 2021 4:40 PM

2021-08-01T16:40:44-04:00

Yes!

Response by Cpl Raymond Wiltshire made Aug 1 at 2021 5:05 PM

2021-08-01T17:05:04-04:00

No matter what the rank shows, a CSM has a lot more power that some butter bar. He may be an officer, but if he thinks the CSM is just an normal enlisted man, he is dad wrong. A butter bar is still wet behind the ears and has a lot to learn before he can become a real leader. It is always a good idea to listen to the "advice' of a senior enlisted. IMHO

Response by SGM Frank Marsh made Aug 1 at 2021 6:04 PM

2021-08-01T18:04:15-04:00

first of all, it needs to be done in private. second of all, nobody needs to get "locked up" so to speak. they need to talk about it and if that doesn't work, go to the BC.

Response by CSM Bob Stanek made Aug 1 at 2021 7:33 PM

2021-08-01T19:33:09-04:00

SFC Casey O'Mally As having spent 16-years of my career as either a CSM or a SGM, I can honestly say I never once saw a CSM or even an SGM light up a junior officer in front of soldiers. But during my time as a young enlisted soldier (back in the early and mid-70s), I can only recall on a couple occasions when something remotely like that happening, but it was with a grisly old WWII type 1SG and a very young 2LT. And when it happen, it was generally because of a safety reason or because of a sense of urgency to accomplish a critical mission.

With that all said, I have had a couple run-ins with junior officers and have casually discussed the topic with them after the event to "enlighten" them on the finer ways of leadership. Plus a follow-up discussion with the commander (usually at the battalion or brigade level, but never with a division commander) usually helps ensure that the mis-guided officer strays too far off-track.

In my opinion, I believe most SGMs and CSMs are skilled enough these days to know that part of their job as a Senior Leader is to mentor Junior Officers. Opportunities like that come along occasionally and most junior officers generally know that the senior level NCO (SFC, MSG, 1SG and SGM/CSMs) are there to help them learn their skill sets that most mid- and senior grade officers will attempt to teach them as well.

Good question.

Response by CWO3 William Hanrahan made Aug 1 at 2021 9:48 PM

2021-08-01T21:48:37-04:00

Who comes up with this crap. Could've...would've...should've. Reading these stupid-ass BS stories and gotcha crap is so unprofessional and unbecoming, it make the whole site irrelevant.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Aug 1 at 2021 10:23 PM

2021-08-01T22:23:51-04:00

Its not the place of a CSM to chew out, publicly or not, an LT. That's the LT's commander's job.
The CSM can make respectful suggestions to the LT which the LT should take under serious consideration.
Please note that the CSM does not have authority over the LT but he does, ultimately, have more power. As an NCO I feel its important for NCOs to know their limits in dealing with officers. (Bear in mind that a NCO who has a issue with an an officer can always take it up the NCO chain and then have the appropriate CSM bring the issue to the appropriate commander.

The best way to deal with an LT who has deficiencies and won't listen to advice, is to step back and let him plant the seeds of his own destruction.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Aug 1 at 2021 10:38 PM

2021-08-01T22:38:30-04:00

It can get worse. Imagine the CO wants a measure of the new LT. He orders his CSM to find some trivial infraction, and ream the LT a new one for it. The CO wants to see what happens. This occurs to me, as something a CO could do. Is this something that might actually happen?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2021 11:47 PM

2021-08-01T23:47:44-04:00

I have never seen any Enlisted chew out an officer in public. And YES it would be wrong for the CSM to do so. He should meet with him in private. And the CSM should have been put on the carpet and put in his place and how u properly do things.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Aug 2 at 2021 5:23 AM

2021-08-02T05:23:45-04:00

One of my troops and I walked by a 2LT from another Battery, as we passed him, we saluted and gave the greeting, the unit motto. The LT just kept walking by with out the return. My 1SG, saw this and ran down to the LT and gave him a salute with the greeting, then said "excuse me sir". And he discussed passing by 2 of his soldiers who showed respect and saluted him but he did not show the courtesy back by returning the salute. He maintained his military bearing as he explained why it was wrong and informed him he owed us a salute. May I say, we could barely hear him. The LT quickly turned around and provided us a salute and apologized. Would the LT be left "feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated," probably, but he learned a lesson of how he did not return respect.

Response by COL Maureen Gagliardi made Aug 2 at 2021 11:01 AM

2021-08-02T11:01:54-04:00

Yes, the CSM is definitely wrong. Take the LT aside and provide him or her with the reason for the "come to Jesus" counseling. Shake hands and do not dwell on the situation. If this recurs, then you may want to dig out a counseling statement and document the hell out of it. I've seen a former sergeant rip another former sergeant a new one in front of a group of folks. I'd never work for that sorry S.O.B (sweet old buddy) again!!!

Response by SGT John Baker made Aug 2 at 2021 12:39 PM

2021-08-02T12:39:01-04:00

Not big on publicly "chewing out" anyone, be they a private or an officer. Discreet refresher courses will always get better results. I once could hear, but not actually see, General Westmorland "chewing out" a second Lt. It seems the butter bar was unable to read a map in the field. Anyway, Westmorland was somewhat angry and loud, even though the "chewing out" was not in front of the troops. He was yelling about why the Lt. was a second lieutenant, it was because the Army did not have third lieutenants. This was at the end of an Army training test at Ft. Campbell back in 1962.

Response by CPT Bill Coleman made Aug 2 at 2021 8:16 PM

2021-08-02T20:16:28-04:00

That situation if true it is very out of line on both parties unless an immediate safety risk is involved.
In my first job as 2LT, in the spring of 1967, I was made a Division Signal Battalion Adjutant/S-1 and HHD Commander. My boss the BN CO was to busy to give me a lot of guidance and the XO's position was vacant so by default the CSM was my boss/mentor. He was extremely helpful and willing to provide guidance and candid criticism on many occasions which made me better in that job. I was then placed in command of one of the companies that had the weakest 1SG and again the CSM assisted greatly in helping me manage and quietly teach the 1SG his job. CSM was also firmly and quick to point out if my approach was wrong and how it could be improved.
CSM Doucette made me a much better officer and his lessons led me well in my former civilian management career. At 81 54 years later I still think of him in the most positive terms.

Response by SGT Dennis Bolin made Aug 2 at 2021 9:17 PM

2021-08-02T21:17:37-04:00

While in Desert Storm we were setting up Camp Doha for the units to come in and relieve us DONT know what happened but are 1Sgt and Co XO were literally at each other’s throat it was broken up before it got bad but it was infront of a bunch of soldiers. Don’t know anything after that.

Response by CW4 Tim Claus made Aug 3 at 2021 7:39 AM

2021-08-03T07:39:30-04:00

I spent my career living out three general principles, well at least I tried my best to uphold them -
1. Praise in public, correct in private
2. You can delegate some of your authority to carry out the mission, you cannot share your responsibility for the mission.
3. A good leader removes a stone from their soldiers rucksack, doesn't add one.
One final thought is that all folks in senior leadership, regardless of branch, civilian or military, RLO, WO or NCO, need to keep egos in check.

Response by SFC Severino Mendez made Aug 3 at 2021 10:48 AM

2021-08-03T10:48:14-04:00

I wasn’t going to write anything; but then I thought I should share that , yes Command Sargent Majors do indeed chew out Lt. Col. My Smash saw that our Col. was talking to the battalion with his hands in his pocket and Smash got pist off and told him; well yelled at him that he would not address his battalion with his hands in his pockets. And the Lt. Col immediately took his hands outta his pockets. Smash was not going to tolerate that. Thank you for letting me share.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2021 11:06 AM

2021-08-03T11:06:02-04:00

My thought is that this kind of spat shouldn't be in front of the troops. It should be handled privately behind closed doors and away from troops. It's bad for morale and would be disrespectful and not even professional. There are ways to deal with stuff like that, and that course of action displayed right there was not it.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Aug 3 at 2021 1:50 PM

2021-08-03T13:50:33-04:00

Unless the LT is creating a clearly dangerous situation that requires immediate action, there is no way he/she should be publicly chewed out by anyone.
That being said, in your scenario the CSM was wrong. The LT could have earned major cool points by simply ordering the CSM to proceed to the company office for further discussion.
I never saw a senior enlisted publicly chew on a LT, but I have explained to several young pilots how the damn aircraft actually works.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Aug 3 at 2021 4:56 PM

2021-08-03T16:56:13-04:00

You don't berate an Officer in public
You don't berate an NCO in public

That is why they have privates

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2021 1:18 AM

2021-08-04T01:18:38-04:00

BLUF: I've never seen anything that closely resembled those much misaligned "stories".
In 28 years of service in combat arms units, training commands, DLA, those stories are as common as the ones I heard when I got to Coleman Barracks in (then) West Germany in 76. 21st Rep Bn would warn everyone about the story of an MP getting put in a locker and thrown down the stairs or out of a window.
I have been part of some briefings/meetings or any other semi-private gatherings where a Senior or Staff NCO (E-6 or above) have had very terse, albeit brief, words with 01s, 2's and 3's. If someone in authority whether it was the senior NCO or Commissioned in the room with or without 620-1 authority usually monitored the encounter and let the words flow as long as they weren't insulting. Yes a few times the CO, BN, BD, CG CDR, would occasionally step in and say words to the effect of "the 1SG, SGM is speaking AS me" watch your lane or "hey Sergeant Major, I gave CPT Snuffy that directive and forgot to tell you. I can't recall any of those moments dragging out for more than a few minutes and stayed in that room and sometimes with apologies and handshakes putting it to rest. Yet IF a Sergeant Major initiated some sort of "ass chewing" to a Jr Officer or vice versa in a public venue then the adult in the room would immediately say "let's head to the CO, BN, BD, HQ" and start walking right then. There would be no "locking up".
That's my 2 pfenning's worth.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Aug 4 at 2021 12:49 PM

2021-08-04T12:49:00-04:00

I have some personal, applicable experience on this one...right or wrong, ya'll be the judge. I was a division officer on a warship going through the Yards. Those who have done it, know that July/August in VA can be hotter than the front porch of Hades. As the aviation DIVO, I spent a lot of time on the deck, and a lot of time with my sleeves rolled up. Didn't help that I had recently lost my Leading Petty Officer (the one I had deployed with the year prior), and had a new (young) Department Head who was still picking up the ropes. In short, I was fairly "hands on" at that time, morale was low, and everyone needed a break. We also got a new CMC; an HMCM. I wouldn't take anything away from that man's professionalism... frankly, he was a super NCO who legit cared for his Blue Shirts, and took time to answer questions from green officers. Granted-he was a little "clean cut" for Amphib "culture"... but looking back, I think that was to all our benefit. Anyway... one day, Master Chief is walking his spaces when he encounters young Mr. Gillespie meeting with his shift leaders to discuss the day's work. My seated position afforded the CMC a glance at the white athletic socks (worn under thin black uniform socks) in my boondockers... an attempt to limit slippage/blisters as I crawled around the oven-like ship. He tersely called me out in front of what constituted 2/3rds of my enlisted leadership... without so much as really asking to interrupt. The guys sweated bullets... I stood at attention. With my brain choking back my youthful, ungoverned rage... I calmly and respectfully asked the CMC if I could speak with him outside at his convenience. He agreed... and I calmly explained how much he genuinely held my respect...and how concerned I was that he had just undermined mine. I stood there waiting for my life to end... but it didn't. He shook my hand, stated that actually, I was right... and that I should change my socks ASAP. I did.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2021 9:28 PM

2021-08-04T21:28:20-04:00

I am assuming this is strictly hypothetical. If the LT is doing something that is blatantly against standards or discipline then the CSM has every right to make the correction.

I've never seen or heard of an LT "lock up" a CSM. It's laughable and any LTC would end that LT upon hearing of it....
Maybe there are some bad apple CSMs but "hypothetically"....I've never seen one so out of place that a LT rightfully would "lock them up"

Response by LTC Luis Utreras made Aug 5 at 2021 4:18 AM

2021-08-05T04:18:39-04:00

I was a young Lieutenant in the 7th Infantry Division (Army), with seven years (7) of NCO service in the US Navy/Marine Corps (Corpsman).
We lived in the field as an Army light infantry unit; our deployments to NTC or Fort Hunter Ligget in California were brutal for our soldiers, but needless to say, like Sun Tzu stated, "The More You Sweat in Training, The Less You Bleed in Combat." It was painful, but I have never known that any of my platoon's soldiers have lost their lives in a battle.
In my company, the 1st SGT, a Veteran of Vietnam, controlled the company's NCO by fear. His booming voice when addressing an NCO will paralyze them. However, NCO's discipline was maintained, and daily tasks were accomplished. Our brutal days in the operational field were like seven days and one day of rest.
After leaving the operational area and going to a day of recovery in one of those field training deployments, our 1st SGT wanted to keep my NCOs taking care of business, which could have waited for the next day. I protested and got a disrespectful comment in front of my soldiers, to which I immediately responded with a polite, rude response. My company commander talked to me about the incident, and I answered that I could not tolerate disrespect from an NCO, no matter his rank; that was the end of the interchange, and from then on, the 1st SGT was in the neutral zone, at least with me. Bottom line is that he has not the authority to disrespect, neither the rank.
CSMs are in a different league, they are really mentors to NCOs and Officers; I have never seen a high-ranking NCO diminished an NCO or an officer in my 30 years of a military career.
I know that the military is not a democratic subculture, but human dignity is applicable across all fields of human endeavors. Although respect is a two-way street (you respect me, and I will respect you), we must keep our correct political way of interacting with our soldiers and officers. Follow your chain of command.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Aug 5 at 2021 4:33 PM

2021-08-05T16:33:32-04:00

A CSM that has his/act together will simply sate "Sir, this talk about this oan the side or simply saying "Sir, my experience with this matter needs private discussion."

Response by CPT Sean Cohen made Aug 5 at 2021 6:34 PM

2021-08-05T18:34:13-04:00

Not as a LT, but I had an issue with a SGM who was acting as our CSM when we were deployed. In fact I had 2 separate run-in's with him. He felt that his position gave him the authority to treat anyone however he wanted, wherever he wanted. I came into my office as the S4 and found him tearing apart my NCOIC in front of my soldiers and the entire S1 shop that I shared an office with. I stopped it and asked what was going on at which point he laid in to me. I stopped him again and we went outside and we had a "discussion" where I informed him that he was not to talk to anyone like that, especially in front of soldiers, and then invited him to accompany me to the BN CDR's office. We eventually PCS'd him out of theater he was so bad.

Response by SFC Mark Klaers made Aug 6 at 2021 7:43 AM

2021-08-06T07:43:57-04:00

I've never seen it, personally...even when I was on Command staff with six SMs and one CSM in one building. That said, none of them would've ever undermined an officer's authority like that. It would've presented the opportunity for a ripple effect that would've cause more problems than it would address. With every pillar chief being a colonel, the SM/CSM would've taken officer matters to "officer country".

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2021 10:43 AM

2021-08-06T10:43:31-04:00

In the Navy, as senior leaders we always preach "praise in public, reprimand in private" and that's the way I always conducted business. The exception to this is for safety reasons, and I would never hesitate to do that if there is an unsafe situation which threatens lives. The CSM was definitely in the wrong and it diminishes his effectiveness and could undermine unit morale because everyone would be afraid to fail and that's not leadership.

Response by LtCol Larry O'Connor made Aug 6 at 2021 12:06 PM

2021-08-06T12:06:22-04:00

The SgtMaj is wrong. Praise in public, reprimand in private.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Aug 6 at 2021 12:46 PM

2021-08-06T12:46:32-04:00

I have not idea if that's ever actually happened ... but I have never known a CSM to do that to another Sergeant, let alone to an officer, even a butter bar.
One CSM did respectfully interupt a 1LT and said, "Sir, sorry to interupt ... I have some info you need. Can you come with me for a moment?" I have NO idea what they discussed, but when the 1st LT returned, he modified what he was telling his Platoon. (I was in an adjacent formation next to them. Never gave it a htought until I read the original question and now wonder if that's what the CSM was doing - TACTFULLY correcting that LT's comments. Yes, it was a FIRST LT ... not a butter bar.)

Response by SPC Mark Stevens made Aug 6 at 2021 1:48 PM

2021-08-06T13:48:39-04:00

I have never seen a SMJ or CSM go ape on on a jr O. I have seen a "quiet discussion" in various stages, however.

Response by SPC Merle Jantz made Aug 6 at 2021 2:24 PM

2021-08-06T14:24:05-04:00

As a former member of the E-4 Mafia, I call this a win-win situation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2021 6:27 PM

2021-08-06T18:27:18-04:00

Only in math does two negatives equal a positive; definitely not here. Both are wrong.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Aug 7 at 2021 2:47 AM

2021-08-07T02:47:06-04:00

One thing I had encountered was stopping an Army Brigadier General for a very excessive speed in the Military family housing area. (No, He didn't even live there) I was polite of course despite His lip service and knew at that point some senior Army Officers had and attitude towards Army MPs and thought they could intimidate them with their rank. I informed Him He was on an Air Force Base and that might work on an Army post but not here. I also knew We had an Officer within my chain of Command that actually would take Him into custody with the full backing of the Base Commander. Once I made those issues clear the only issue now was the speeding. don't make it worse than it has to be He changed His attitude. I then issued Him a DD Form 1408, Armed Forces Traffic Ticket for Speeding, 48 MPH in a 15 MPH zone in the housing area.

Another example was being in charge of a shift an Air Force Full Colonel entered the Security Police Desk with a belligerent, abusive attitude. I politely told Him, Sir, first You need to calm down, get control of Yourself then tell Me what the issue is otherwise You can leave right now He calmed down, I had Him show Me the ticket which he did. He was going 58 MPH in a posted 30 MPH zone. I politely and firmly informed Him that the man that wrote this ticket has worked for Me for over two years as far as I'm concerned if He said You were doing 58 MPH in a 30 MPH zone You were and if You think I'm going to kill the ticket, I'm not in fact I'm going to walk it through and make sure its processed. That was the end of that contact and He left and Yes i did make sure it was processed. My troop Who wrote the ticket wasn't in the room but behind the desk area, not in view of the Colonel and remained quiet and heard the entire exchange and sure knew I stood up for Him.

I made it a practice to address everyone as Sir or Mam and show proper respect enlisted or commissioned, one stripe or even Flag Officer ranks. Then We only had the issue before us and didn't have added issues. We were trained to have a firm but impartial attitude in the discharge of our duties and I knew I had the full support and backing of those Senior in the chain of Command to Me. I also always started by telling them why they were stopped or being detained or interviewed prior to even asking for any credentials and so did all of us. They did have a right to know that. I never picked on anyone because of rank or was intimidated by them, the issue was the violation, nothing else. I didn't always write anything but give Me an attitude You may get a ticket I would not have issued otherwise.

One Captain I stopped for speeding had such an attitude My supervisor, a TSgt, wrote a DD Form 1569, Incident /Complaint Report. for Conduct unbecoming and Officer under the UCMJ. The Base Commander read it, called that Captain to His officer, brought Him down to the Security Police Officer Himself and made the Captain say He was sorry for His bad behavior to Me and also told that Captain in front of Me "We don't want people like You in the Air Force, You are a disgrace to Your uniform, as far as I'm concerned all these Security Police are superior to You and if You even son much as sneezed after this I'l rip Your Captains bars off " He also gave Him a direct order "The next time You address a Security Policeman You will address Him as Sir, everyone one of them is Superior to You !"

Response by SFC Antonio Baird made Aug 7 at 2021 2:29 PM

2021-08-07T14:29:50-04:00

That should not be done publicly. The CSM obviously has much more experience than the LT, but you cannot undermine and or embarrassed the LT.

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Aug 7 at 2021 10:51 PM

2021-08-07T22:51:41-04:00

This question like so many of these can be misinterpreted in so many different ways. Say you’re at the firing range and you demonstrating and grenades this is a live situation and everybody supposed to be taking it seriously. It is conceivable to me that some one out of the mini thousands of second lieutenants might just be stupid enough to start horsing around with a live grenade in front of all of his troops. The senior master sergeant would be absolutely right to yell at him right then and there to stop the dangerous situation. My point is that even though the general rule is you absolutely do not disrespect a person of a higher rank there must be exceptions to that rule like there are exceptions to our rules.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Aug 7 at 2021 11:24 PM

2021-08-07T23:24:57-04:00

As a junior Officer, I was corrected by 1SGs and CSMs a handful of times — I thanked them. They were respectful and doing the right thing by correcting me.

Response by COL Brian Jalbert made Aug 8 at 2021 10:38 AM

2021-08-08T10:38:04-04:00

As described, this would be poor leadership. The golden rule on this is, "praise in public, criticize in private." Junior leaders, especially LTs, need to make their own way in establishing themselves with their troops and a senior leader publicly undermining them is not good for the unit, so the CSM would be out of line here by a wide margin. There is also the not so small fact that the LT actually outranks the CSM, though any LT foolish enough to even try to "light up" a CSM in public (or even in private) would be in for a bad day, and deservedly so.

Response by SMSgt Sheila Berg made Aug 8 at 2021 12:11 PM

2021-08-08T12:11:51-04:00

The Lt should be addressed in private in respect to the rank. However Lt's can be annoying children!!!

Response by LTC Christopher Hills made Aug 8 at 2021 11:01 PM

2021-08-08T23:01:49-04:00

Professional soldiers are all beholden to each other and are expected to help (or correct) each other to maintain high army standard. I have seen CSM’s and 1SG’s who were wrong on a topic and/or “out of uniform” (same with Generals and COL’s as well). Just as I would expect them to straighten me out on a bad day, they should also expect that I would straighten them out so they are not embarrassed in front of their troops or peers. The key to the whole thing is how, where and in front of whom. In your scenario, the CSM would be in the wrong to disrespect an officer (whether in front of his troops or his peers) just as the officer would be wrong to embarrass the CSM with public correction. When I moved from enlisted to officer, the 1SG in my first tactical company was awesome at “mentoring” me without disrespecting my rank, and I can honestly say that I never had to call him out on a mistake during my time in that company. But I have pulled aside other senior NCO’s and officers over the years and was always careful to do it respectfully and privately. And I demanded the same from them. YES, had a CSM disrespected me, I absolutely would have locked his ass up right there in front of the troops as a reminder that I am senior to him and the troops work for me. As to taking an ass chewing from my battalion commander, if I deserved it, I’d take it and be happy… but I wouldn’t deserve it in the case where his CSM was disrespectful… and I wouldn’t take that. As a 1LT I relieved my Battalion commander and CSM, duct taped them and hauled them to higher headquarters. Officers and NCO’s should be more worried about the army than their own career.

Response by LCpl Sidney Green made Aug 9 at 2021 2:48 AM

2021-08-09T02:48:13-04:00

Yes it is wrong, unprofessional, highly inappropriate, and possibly insubordinate. That's true within the military and civilian sector. Never redress a senior in front of the rank and file. Even between an officer and NCO.

That said, everybody makes mistakes; and good leaders should not only depend on, but respect their subordinates -- particularly the senior ones -- and encourage them to bring any mistakes (and suggestions) to their attention as soon as possible. Personally, I'd suggest asking for a moment in private, or going to them, then ask for permission to speak freely. There's also decorum and demeanor, but a lot depends on other factors such as the age and maturity between the two.

Response by LTC Robert Spuhl made Aug 9 at 2021 10:11 AM

2021-08-09T10:11:05-04:00

To help avoid this situation in the first place...when I signed into a unit as an officer, immediately after my office call with the BCO I made a point to have an office call with the Bn CSM...to demonstrate respect for his position & begin a solid working relationship. I also made it a point to stop in for occasional discussions...requests for mentorship. Also, when the CSM walked into my troop area or S3 shop I always popped up to the position of modified parade rest...again to show respect for his position as senior enlisted advisor to the BN/Sqn Cdr. You cannot imagine how many times that relationship benefitted me later when I needed support...or I managed to step in crap myself. I always had that CSM ally & it benefitted the men & women under me when I needed to make something happen for them.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2021 10:23 AM

2021-08-09T10:23:39-04:00

In my 10 years of service I’ve never seen or heard of this happening (save for one situation that involved one of my father’s LTs. That LT was the son of a division CSM so go figure.)

In MEDCOM I haven’t had much occasion to talk to with CSMs but on the few occasions I have they have been extremely professional. I’m not surprised because that’s what CSMs do, they are the standard bearers. Most CSMs have mastered the art of giving an “order” to JOs.

However, an LT should not and can not allow themselves to be disrespected by subordinates (which the CSM technically is). A public “ass chewing” of an NCO/officer is rarely warranted….praise in public, correct in private. If the LT is that much of an issue, the CSM should talk to his/her boss who will assuredly fix the issue.

Sometimes, as an LT, you may have to stand up to SNCOs who might try to bully you or your soldiers. I had a CSM who was a patient and he would “bully” the LPNs (E4 and below) on our floor to get special treatment. When you are a patient, your rank is irrelevant. The medical team is in charge of your care. I requested to take care of him during his stay and I was able to 1)Appeal to his professional NCO pride day and 2) Give him “orders” relating to how his hospital stay will go.

Response by CSM Todd Smith made Aug 9 at 2021 11:28 AM

2021-08-09T11:28:05-04:00

I had to correct a junior officer or two in my career. I always did it respectfully and in private. The only time to make it loud and in public is if it is a matter of life or death. Of course the junior officer could disagree with me and take it up with the BC. That was usually an eye opening experience for the junior officer!

Response by SFC Phillip Wiley made Aug 9 at 2021 4:45 PM

2021-08-09T16:45:23-04:00

There is a difference between on the spot corrections and chewing out. Anyone can and is responsible to do on the spot corrections as they are found. Rank has no privilege over being corrected.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Aug 12 at 2021 12:58 AM

2021-08-12T00:58:48-04:00

Not a LT with a CSM, but the one time I saw a CPO chew out an Ensign in public it was a question of safety. The Ensign gave an order that we all knew was wrong, the Chief stepped in and said "Belay that!" The Ensign told us to proceed. Yea, the Ensigns day did not end well, and we did not do what he had told us to. The job got done, the Chief's way.

Response by CSM Bruce Trego made Aug 12 at 2021 12:46 PM

2021-08-12T12:46:39-04:00

Respect is the key word. Respect of rank of course and also respect for experience. No matter who is plumbing up who it should be done in private! No one should be called out in front of others regardless of rank. Of course during training, training personnel may use this as a training opportunity for the class.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2021 12:28 PM

2021-08-15T12:28:46-04:00

A CSM chewing out a LT in public? the answer is a one word answer: UNPROFESSIONAL. You just don't do it. In fact, you shouldn't even do it to a junior enlisted, that is just bad leadership.

Response by 1LT H P made Aug 16 at 2021 12:44 PM

2021-08-16T12:44:29-04:00

As an LT that served as a Platoon Leader in an an Airborne Infantry, I find this to be quite the urban myth.

You see, any Junior Officer worth his weight will acknowledge the fact that NCO’s run the military. Infantry Officer’s normally have a fair amount of respect for their NCO counterparts—much in part because of our interactions with quality NCO’s in IBOLC and Ranger School, where rank does not matter.

I’ve been chewed out by my Company First Sergeant for a mistake that I clearly overlooked from one of my Squad Leaders during the patrolling portion of one of our field training exercises. I’ve got to say that instead of getting my feelings hurt, I was actually humbled by the fact that this NCO cared enough about me to make the correction in the first place.

I would NEVER, in a million years, even fathom trying to lock up anyone over the rank of Sergeant, even for the most egregious of mistakes—much less a Command Sergeant Major. This is the quickest way to find yourself in the S3 shop, filing paperwork and fetching coffee for the Ops NCO’s.

Look, I’ve seen Captains get their assess handed to them by senior NCO’s and for good reason. If the LT got chewed out, it was probably for good reason—move on and learn from this experience. There is mutual respect on both sides and I think most would agree.

When I was in the National Guard though, I did wear a Cadet rank. Being in an Infantry Battalion, we were often confused with Officers and NCO’s since most of the soldiers had never interacted with cadet before.

Here, where the rules were blurred. I often had NCO’s try to assert their rank on me, with little to no results.

As a Cadet, you were truly the gray man. The commands of “push”, and “beat your face” did nothing more than signal any wondering Cadet to leave the area immediately—often with much success.

The NCO’s eventually got clever though, and often had the XO’s conduct their smoking sessions of us as a weird Officer privilege not found anywhere else in the Army.

All in all, good times!

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made Sep 22 at 2021 1:30 PM

2021-09-22T13:30:19-04:00

PltSgt, think about what just happened. Do you think either case is prejudicial to good order and discipline not to mention leadership? The BC was in error for educating the LT in his presence. The LT was wrong for firing a full broadside, and finally the CSM should have realized that he was dealing with a JO and saw it as a teaching moment. I have known of many Captains who have re-educated JOs, but never in front of enlisted. Command Master Chiefs are leaders and educators not asses. This is about working together to get the mission done, not about who the biggest ass is. Rank has its responsibility as well as power, we should all use them wisely.

Response by CW2 Matt Baum made Oct 26 at 2021 4:44 PM

2021-10-26T16:44:58-04:00

Unless there is a safety threat, always praise in public and discipline in private. The train wreck unit that I retired out of, I saw a young-ish Major dress down a CW5 in a packet tent during Warfighter. Didn't end well, and showed a gross lack of maturity and leadership to younger troops.

Response by SPC Jeff Stassin made Nov 26 at 2021 2:32 AM

2021-11-26T02:32:12-05:00

I find this question very real...... and I will put a Real spin on it.....
If the American people can physically see that "some" of our politicians are committing treason against the Constitution of the United States and against the rights of Americans....
Is it not wrong for them to turn it around some how and give us another public lie, and why can't we just simply prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, for destroying our great nation????
In your question, some people need to be publicly humiliated for them to see the error of there ways, if they still have to fight against it then they are either delusional or maybe truly not in the wrong, or if the CSM is just being a bully and taking it out on the Lt. , or if there is a major safety concern at that moment and a severe divertive tactic is needed to stop the unsafe action from happening then action is to be taken whether the other person agrees or disagrees with it. There are more than several reasons to consider, and both sides should be heard by a neutral party to help make that determination. To many people now a days think they are the Chief, even when using their own opinions. When in fact if they used: common sense, facts, experiences, and tactfulness and also the willingness to get a second opinion before acting as judge, jury and executioner, we as a nation would not be tolerating the nonsense we are seeing unfold today. I would hope to think that we would be a more United Nation if people just treated others as they would expect to be treated. I feel respect has lost it's meaning and has been thrown out the door with the trash these days. The days of the buddy buddy system should be thrown away, and actions should speak louder than bullshit. The question is: which action will each individual take, to prove how worthy of the respect they "actually" deserve and not what they "think" they deserve. There is not enough information here to process whether which one was in the right and which one was in the wrong. I have seen my share of good commands and I have also seen my share of selfish commands in my military experience.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Nov 29 at 2021 3:19 PM

2021-11-29T15:19:48-05:00

It is wrong. I had a platoon sergeant in Crete who chewed out our XO and accused him of stealing and sabotaging our equipment. He put his finger in our XO's chest and called him M*****f***er right in front of about half the battery. Our XO locked him up and s**t down his throat. My platoon daddy admitted he was wrong and said of our XO, "He locked my a$$ up!"

The Colonel should have the CSM's back and the Lt should fear repercussions from the Colonel if he ever shows disrespect to a CSM.

Response by LCDR Michael Pumilia made Dec 5 at 2021 3:24 PM

2021-12-05T15:24:18-05:00

The first parameter is officer and enlisted. Second is whether there is an imminent factor involved such as safety of personnel and/or equipment. An enlisted member is normally incorrect to publicly or privately chew out an officer. That is not their prerogative. A prompt warning from the officer that the CSM is out line would defuse the issue. That would also defuse the issue of the CSM being locked up. The secondary parameter comes into play when a safety issue can occur. It necessarily calls for prompt action. It can mean the CSM may need to address the officer to prevent any losses to people and material. But only to the extent to correct the issue at hand. That's it. What is also wrong in this situation is the BC or CG dressing down a subordinate officer in front of the CSM. That is wholly inappropriate leadership behavior. It puts the CSM being part of the wrong show. The CSM should quietly excuse themself and bring up the matter latter with the superior officer. In this case, all the players have some degree of poor behavior.

Response by SFC Michael Lindenbusch made Dec 11 at 2021 7:42 PM

2021-12-11T19:42:03-05:00

In any case, no matter the ranks, I would try to hold to the maxim of "Praise in public criticize in private." Doubly so in the case of someone in a leadership position, UNLESS there was a serious safety issue involved.

Response by SFC Donald Lockwood made Dec 11 at 2021 8:34 PM

2021-12-11T20:34:33-05:00

I was in Baumholder Germany in 1969. On my way to the mess I was passing a Jr officer, I smartly render an "All The Way Salute". The officer didn't return the salute. The Brigade CSM was behind the Officer on the sidewalk, He tore him a new button right their and rightfully so! Airborne All The Way!

Response by Lt Col Nick Daffern made Dec 11 at 2021 9:45 PM

2021-12-11T21:45:46-05:00

When I was a brand new 2Lt Admin Officer I had many occasions to be "mentored" by SNCO's. I learned very quickly it was in my best interest to listen to them but I never had any of them be overtly disrespectful to me in front of subordinates or peers. As I became more experienced and established my own credibility, I learned to discern between which NCOs I should listen to and those who had their own agendas. When I became a Tech School Squadron Commander (as a 1LT) my First Shirt and I operated as a team. He was invaluable to me and I learned a lot about not just how to manage people, but also about how to use my authority to both help my airmen and make my squadron more efficient. However, he expected me to take responsibility and act my part as a commander. When he left for another assignment my next First Sgt taught me how much damage a bad NCO could do. By then, I had developed the confidence to fire him. That's one of the great things about officer development. You start off not knowing which way is up and you have NCOs and other officers who are there to mentor you. If you're smart, you listen and learn. At some point, though, the training wheels come off and you're expected to pull your weight and fulfill your role as an officer. I have nothing but respect for the NCOs I worked with, and who worked for me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2021 4:43 AM

2021-12-12T04:43:07-05:00

Is the LT Prior service? I've seen a few transitions that act like enlisted and step outside of their lane. As for the topic, no NCO or officer should be disrespectful toward one another in public. Like they say punish in private praise in public. Everyone wants to be the best leader, and everyone wants their opinions to be heard but regardless of personal opinions there are orders that we must all follow. Unless it's life,limb, or eyesight, immoral, or unethical. Then we are bound to follow those orders.

Response by SGT Peter Wilks made Dec 12 at 2021 10:18 AM

2021-12-12T10:18:41-05:00

That CSM was definitely in the wrong. (I smell the strong scent of egotism here).

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Dec 12 at 2021 12:01 PM

2021-12-12T12:01:25-05:00

There is an old adage: "Praise in public, criticize in private."

Response by SFC William Allen made Dec 12 at 2021 2:46 PM

2021-12-12T14:46:19-05:00

Any CSM worth his/her's salt will NEVER do this. As stated by others, the CSM will talk to the young officer quietly off to the side- off line as they might say. I did have a CSM yell at me once- I then politely replied with the old rule of punish in private, praise in public. He was not pleased but conceded that I was right.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made Dec 12 at 2021 4:22 PM

2021-12-12T16:22:23-05:00

That CSM is WAY out of bounds. That LT might be young and lacking, but he is STILL an OFFICER and the CSM is not. I don't care how much "experience" and "years" that CSM has. You respect the rank and the uniform. Teaching and suggestion things to the LT, is one thing. Trying to chew out an officer, is grounds for a court martial.

Response by Amn Joseph H. made Dec 12 at 2021 4:23 PM

2021-12-12T16:23:31-05:00

Never ever saw a breach of disciple like that. Though had heard a few close things happened in the field under fire:) And that would not be explainable to the state-side desk jockeys peddling the Military Code or civilians. Respect, obey the rank, disciple, alien concepts:) In the field the Sargents run the troops and the officers are suppose to give competent orders. Mitigating circumstances judged by military courts rarely sided with breaking ranks, unless gross incompetence can be shown that kills our troops that borders on criminal negligence. For whatever it's worth most lt are smart enough to take advice.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2021 3:17 AM

2021-12-13T03:17:42-05:00

Although there can be conflicts between LTs and NCOs, it is routinely short-lived. The reason for this is power dynamics not rank. If an LT has any common sense or a good NCO battle buddy, then the conflict is kept private and managed. Because one role of an NCO is to train and mentor their battle buddy officer, at every level. PSGs/SFCs guide 1LTs, 1SGs guide Captains, CSM guide everyone. So, if an LT feels disrespected or perceives a personal slight by a CSM, then they might do something stupid, like believe rank is the controlling variable, it isn't. Attempting to 'lock-up' a CSM won't succeed to do anything except escalate conflict. Because the LT's Rater or Senior Rater will respond on behalf of the CSM.

Likewise, if a CSM chews out an LT in public, this causes problems for all involved. Because we praise in public and admonish in private. So, whatever issue the CSM has, the routine process is to mentor the LT in private, as well as involve the unit NCOs to guide the LT. Again, that is one of the roles of all NCOs. Failing that, the CSM is responsible for advising the Commander and the good order and discipline, morale and development of the unit, including officers. As such, the CSM will inform the Commander on a need to develop the LT. And the conversation is much different if the LT attempts to pull rank on the CSM. Because we respect the rank, not the person. Most CSMs will respect the rank but if the LT proceeds to behave like an ass, it rarely turns out well for the LT.

Good officers seek out the CSM to make an introduction, to open and maintain a line of communication and ensure that the LT's development is not thwarted by miscommunication. Poor officers believe rank matters when it comes to power.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2021 8:20 AM

2021-12-13T08:20:55-05:00

During an NCOPD our CSM politely asked an onlooking CPT to leave the conference room. Captain immediately became defensive, utilizing his rank and athority with a whiff of a-hole superiority. CSM left and returned with the BN Commander who called the CPT from the room. No leader should belitte another Infront of soldiers. I'm not gunna beat a dead horse. I just wanted to share my experience.

Response by 1LT Allan Holder made Dec 13 at 2021 8:43 AM

2021-12-13T08:43:28-05:00

While on deployment to Iraq in 2005, I observed a SFC who was the FOB mayor publicly chew out a young 1LT for not carrying his weapon in the low ready on the FOB, as was the FOB rule. It was completely wrong of the SFC to do this. The poor LT just stood there not knowing what to do. It reminded me of a drill Sgt and a new soldier in basic training. It was so loud and disrespectful that a crowd gathered. As if that was not enough, the SFC " ordered " the LT to the FOB office and then proceeded to march him to the office. WAY out of line of the SFC. poor leadership on SFC's part. FYI, I was not the LT,

Response by SFC Joe Ortega made Dec 13 at 2021 3:24 PM

2021-12-13T15:24:44-05:00

I never saw anything like that happen. Jr. Officers sometimes need to be set straight, in a tactful manner of course. They don't have much experience and their mentor probably has a couple of years over them. Their rank power goes to their heads some times. A CSM has been around the block several times when the lieutenants are just taking baby steps.

Response by MSG Terry Titus made Dec 13 at 2021 6:47 PM

2021-12-13T18:47:48-05:00

I saw it first hand in Iraq. A 1LT made a decision to go into an area he was told not to go into. The 1LT decided to go anyway. They were ambushed and 4 soldiers and a translator were killed. When he returned, a CSM grabbed him by the collar pinned him against a wall and chewed him out. The CSM told him he disobeyed orders by going into that order and the CSM dismissed him. The Commander of the BN followed suit and sent the 1LT to be demoted and arrested until they could get paperwork to have him discharged. Unknown if this 1LT was sent to Leavenworth or just kicked out of the Army with a Bad Conduct Discharge.

Response by 1LT John Neil Jednoralski made Dec 13 at 2021 11:24 PM

2021-12-13T23:24:39-05:00

I think the CSM is wrong!! He should have called the LT aside, and discussed the matter, but not in front of the LT's troops.
It reminds me of a MAC NCO driving into my reinforced position, with no notice. I was on a M-60s and should have put a few rounds in front of the jeep. I decided it looked like an Army jeep and did not fire. When he got inside the defense perimeter, he was completely in subordinate. I should have put him under arrest and called SeaHorse 6, in Vinh Long, S Vietnam. Why do NCO's think they are little GODs??

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2021 12:01 AM

2021-12-14T00:01:21-05:00

I have observed first hand in the Army and in the Air Force there are some really STRAC CSMs and CSMs both who I have been honored and benefited to serve with.
Then there are just E9s.

Response by MAJ Kevin Wood made Dec 14 at 2021 12:03 PM

2021-12-14T12:03:02-05:00

Never saw such a situation. Maybe because of the professionalism of the NCOs or the fact they knew as an officer i 'would' listen to correction. As a new Mortar Platoon Leader, i had been used to dealing with one of my Squad Leaders, (Platoon Sergeant was on leave) then later, i told the squad leader to do someth8ng involving the entire platoon. The platoon sergeant took me asisde and informed my of my mistake. I apologized to him and then publicly informed the platoon i had been mistaken in my earleir approach.
In a later time, i heard a commotion in the orderly room. As the then company commander, i stuck my head in. My first sergeant said "NCO business sir." I turned around, walked out and closed the door.

Response by LTC Denis Sullivan made Dec 14 at 2021 2:48 PM

2021-12-14T14:48:09-05:00

This scenario is one of those campfire stories that gets passed around, but likely never actually happened. In the daily business of the Army, a CSM and LT have little opportunity to interact, let alone get into some serious brouhaha such as public displays of temper or power. Just doesn't happen.

Response by MSgt LeMayne DeWild made Dec 14 at 2021 3:34 PM

2021-12-14T15:34:34-05:00

Every CSM or CMS are selected because of their ability to get the assigned missions completed without loss of life or injury for ALL enlisted members. His loyalty is towards GOD, Country and prior countless military deployment. The today officers LT and others are being trained in the so called Woke/Socialism training by our Pentagon Politicians. This happened in the Vietnam conflict with extreme circumstances that the officers did not take advice from the CSM. Those problems were cleansed up to Desert Storm. Afterwards the Desert Storm countless skilled commission officers and enlisted were targeted by State Department and our draft dodging Clinton administration laying the foundation Socialism as our country suffers.

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made Dec 14 at 2021 9:36 PM

2021-12-14T21:36:21-05:00

When we rotated back to Kuwait from Iraq the national guard there were the same ones who weren’t resupplying us because the route was “too dangerous “ but when we pulled in to the cabal and they didn’t challenge us and were walking around in shorts and flip flops my CSM lost his mind (keep in mind we were still carrying full combat load of ammo 2 grenades and full battle rattle) he marched into the TOC and ripped some skin off some ass and it was the whole CMND not some butter bar, that day they were pulling guard duty and wearing military uniforms. I’m always going to assume that a CSM is speaking with the voice of god almighty and woe unto they who were dumb enough to cause his eye to stop there for a minute. Every Chief, Drill SGT and CSM usually has decades of experience and in my mind speaks and embodies Samuel L Jackson. Get to parade rest and hope you have enough ass to chew.

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made Dec 14 at 2021 9:55 PM

2021-12-14T21:55:35-05:00

I may be alone in this but I think a big part of this is something I recognized while still serving. A soldier who has seen a rotation anywhere will do what an officer tells them if it’s not outrageously stupid, but for a E5+ they would die for them. I was lucky enough to have served with a few Non coms that I absolutely would have followed into the breach without any kind of thought, I also had 2-3 officers who were equally impressive, point in fact I had a similar problem with a LT when we were on FTX I was responsible for the front gate, we were digging the hole for the .50, someone with more authority than common sense decided to bump my gate somewhere it shouldn’t be, but like a good soldier I started getting it ready despite knowing it was in the wrong spot (zero visibility and no way to stop incoming) we broke for chow having switched digging crews and the LT came to “inspect my AO” I told my guys to keep eating, when she asked for the site map I gave her the paper with a .50 pit and a line 8 meters out, she asked where was the rest, and why wasn’t it at attention, I said I didn’t have any more because you can’t see past that spot because were in the wrong spot and last time I checked we don’t salute in the field and when on a work crew and when on chow, and we were all three. She said that I need to do what I was told and to update the site picture. Later in the Capt’s tent he laughed and agreed with everything I said and said I was right but you still have to respect their rank. I did notice she didn’t have much to say when we all saluted her next we saw her. Funny little addition she was caught cheating on her enlisted husband overseas.

Response by MSG Bob S made Dec 15 at 2021 2:50 PM

2021-12-15T14:50:28-05:00

This sounds like and authority versus power situation to me. That being said have a discussion with the LT along with his/her commander in private. Remember, lead by example!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2021 3:52 PM

2021-12-15T15:52:39-05:00

Stay cool and get the mission done.
There is a karma about these situations; when folks are wrong, it always comes out eventually and you don't have to lift a finger. It might take awhile, and some patience, but bad leaders, both commissioned, noncommissioned or otherwise will eventually be outed as bad leaders.
FWIW.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Dec 15 at 2021 4:14 PM

2021-12-15T16:14:56-05:00

First off let me say I'm a mustang; for those of you not familiar with that moniker that's an officer with enlisted service. As a newly commissioned officer I realized that my limited knowledge of my MOS, that of an Artillery Officer, I realized that the 13E MOS didn't help when it came to the 13A MOS which required a far more comprehensive knowledge of the field artilleryman for the officer. I kept my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut and observed the NCOs ostensibly in my charge and selected a section chief who doubled occasionally as the Chief of Firing battery (the second most senior NCO in a field artillery battery) on split shoots and ASKED him if he would consider acting as a mentor until I had my feet fully under me as a field artilleryman. He agreed to do that. On a couple occasions he had to grab me by the scruff and discretely correct me and in doing so kept me out of trouble. That NCO had a 9th grade education but was the equal of any competent field artillery officer I knew when it came to being an artilleryman. Yes, he chewed my backside a couple of times but never in front of the troops or other officers. I would be proud to serve with him to this day.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Dec 25 at 2021 2:50 PM

2021-12-25T14:50:25-05:00

I have heard stories about things like this happening. But I have never actually witnessed it happening. As such I believe this is more about barracks scuttlebutt then actual happenings.

First of all I don't see a SGM, of any sort, dressing down a Lt publicly, ever, period, end of story.

Secondly, I don't see a LT. ever having to actually interact with the CSM.

As a young, and I mean young, plane captain I have had several instances of dealing with officers and Petty Officers. And I have had two occasion where I had to exert my authority over said officer or petty officer.

You never do it disrespectfully, and whether the CSM wants to admit it or not, that LT, by virtue of being an officer, deserves the same respect one would give a four star general; They are officers first, and grade second.

I for one am tired of people acting like the chain of command only works for E-4 and below. If i was a nugget officer with one day of active duty, and the CSM tried to lay into me like a I was some dumb fucking private, I would remind him that he was speaking to an officer.

As the chief ADVISOR to the BN commander the sergeant majors job is to find holes in the system and then offer solutions to the BN commander, not degrade Platoon Leaders in front of their troops.

CSM is not in my chain of command at all.

Response by Maj John Bell made Dec 25 at 2021 7:15 PM

2021-12-25T19:15:47-05:00

Long story as short as possible.

Gaggle of new reporting 2ndLts eating in the dining facility. Regimental SgtMaj starts running his mouth about how screwed up butter bars are. The conversation isn't quiet, is loud enough to be heard by the majority of the Marines in the dinfac and is obviously intended for the benefit of the 2ndLts. What the SgtMaj didn't know was that one of the 2ndLts was a mustang that had been a GySgt prior to commissioning. After about 10 minutes of the SgtMaj's rant the mustang stands up, walks over to the table and asks the SgtMaj

"So, what are you doing to unfuck us butterbars?"

The SgtMaj does his best R. Lee Ermey drill sgt. routine ass chewing on the mustang. 2ndLt waits til the SgtMaj is done. Obviously unimpressed, 2ndLt laughs and invites the Regimental Sgt Maj to join him in the BnCmdr's office for a SNCO led remedial training course to get the 2ndLts up to speed. Regt SgtMaj declines with a few vulgar comments about the 2ndLts mother.

2ndLt, Company CO, BnSgtMaj and BnCO have a visit with Reg CO later that day. Next day the new Rgt SgtMaj assumes the billet. Never saw the old Regt SgtMaj again.

During my career, I had the good fortune to have great leaders assigned as my senior enlisted advisors. I only had two senior officers who actually took the time to be mentors.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Dec 26 at 2021 3:02 PM

2021-12-26T15:02:38-05:00

I don't believe I've EVER seen that. I've seen fresh, young, fly, & flashy CSMs and a few old & crusty CSMs see a young LT or CPT in the wrong and called them over to correct them quietly. But chewing them out? I can't remember seeing that. As per the situation, I'm not sure.

Response by PO2 John Harker made Dec 28 at 2021 3:57 PM

2021-12-28T15:57:04-05:00

Chew outs aren't supposed to happen in public. Ever. Say something if you have to be be quick and tactful, then light them up in private if necessary.

Response by SSG Willis Baker made Dec 28 at 2021 10:28 PM

2021-12-28T22:28:34-05:00

I have never seen a 2nd LT that had the guts to say one word back to a CSM when he was called out, except, "Yes CSM" and moved out smartly.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Dec 29 at 2021 10:13 AM

2021-12-29T10:13:55-05:00

Disagree in private; praise in public. I believe that is Management 101. It does not change because you are talking with an idiot.

Response by MSgt Frank Askins made Dec 29 at 2021 1:53 PM

2021-12-29T13:53:10-05:00

I've had a few behind closed door discussions with some junior officers. The conversation began with "may I speak candidly" and when permission was granted, I expressed my dislike on whatever the subject happened to be. I found this to be most fruitful over the years of my career. I would never call out anyone, officer or enlisted, in public. I certainly wouldn't appreciate being treated that way and would never subject anyone else to that type of treatment. Anyone who feels the need to conduct themselves in this manner are only stroking their own egos.

Response by SGT Jonathan Persons made Dec 29 at 2021 3:24 PM

2021-12-29T15:24:36-05:00

According to regulations, yes they are. However, any LT that doesn't immediately realize that the CSM has the ear of his chain of command and locks up that CSM really shouldn't be in the military.

Response by MSgt Keith Morreira made Dec 29 at 2021 7:56 PM

2021-12-29T19:56:43-05:00

That discussion should be in private between the two.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Dec 31 at 2021 4:28 AM

2021-12-31T04:28:23-05:00

The CSM has neither the rank nor the authority to do that. It only makes me wonder how he got his rank in the first place. Frankly I've never heard of that happening.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Feb 1 at 2022 10:21 PM

2022-02-01T22:21:46-05:00

Never known ANY Lt to lock up an E-9 at any level. If an E-9 is chewing out an Lt it’s probably because they deserved it. That would never happen to a CMSgt in the AF.

Response by SFC Ralph Bowen made Feb 8 at 2022 11:21 PM

2022-02-08T23:21:33-05:00

I did 22 years. Left as a SFC. Unless there is a safety issue being broken, neither should “ be chewing one another” in front of troops. Both lose respect by not handling the situation professionally. “IF” there is a safety issue with a weapon or truck a short burst is needed. Troops get the wrong idea that yelling is proper & professional, when it is neither. Calling one to the side for other than a safety issue and stating “Let us discuss this at another time in private”. Is professional protocol. I NEVER saw nor heard of a CSM and a LT having a confrontation. CSM has close to 2 decades of military training under their belt. They are held to a very high standard to wear than rank.
LY May have been previous Enlisted and knows how much the CSM has gone through to become CSM, highly respected by all enlisted. I never heard one ever yelling. Troops do not usually screw up around that rank.
SFC served proudly 1992-2015

Response by SGT Richard Hanson SSP/CGS made Feb 10 at 2022 12:19 AM

2022-02-10T00:19:37-05:00

ALWAYS Reprimand in private Praise in Public, be professional, never get personal and keep a lid on your temper.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Feb 10 at 2022 1:32 PM

2022-02-10T13:32:58-05:00

I knn my own it’s late, a LT would never try to lock up a CSM. As you said, a CSM should mentor a LT not lambaste them. Just as every LT will have an office call with the CO, so should they with the CSM just before or after. This should never happen from either front.

Response by SSG Michael Doolittle made Feb 11 at 2022 12:47 AM

2022-02-11T00:47:04-05:00

First I do not think a CSM would ever do that in view of any other soldier... Second, whatever reason the CSM has for admonishing the LT, the proper way would have been to bring the issue uo to the superior commander as I do not know of an LT position that would have a CSM as the enlisted member. In the Infantry for example a CSM is a Battalion Rank, and any LT would be a low-level Staff member at best with a chain of command of several levels between the Battalion Commander who the CSM is assigned to.. So taking the issue to the LT's immediate superior would be the proper way to deal with it... I have many associates today that were Major, Lt Colonel & Colonels, as well as many CSM's and they all agree with this...

Response by Sgt Ed Bowers made Feb 16 at 2022 9:41 AM

2022-02-16T09:41:22-05:00

I've seen it happen in the Corps. Generally the Sergeant Majors would do that in front of anyone. He'd take the young Lt. aside and tell him what he'd done wrong. And in every case I've seen the Lt. was smart enough to just say "Thank you Sergeant Major. Fact is neither one of the needs to turn it into a pissing contest.

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Feb 17 at 2022 2:06 PM

2022-02-17T14:06:32-05:00

we all know the csm has the experience, the seniority to express himself . but to do so publicly undermines the respect, or not, for the chain of command . the csm lost emotional control of himself and should be, privately, accountable for it . but how is the damage going to be controlled ?

Response by SGT Jim Ramge, MBA made Feb 18 at 2022 3:55 PM

2022-02-18T15:55:55-05:00

I would suspect that the LT’s have already been given a forewarning regarding whom the CSM answers… How the CSM chooses to “discuss” with the LT any issues will probably happen in one of two ways, one, “I need a moment of your time”, or two, “You, the BC and I have a mtg now scheduled at 1630, don’t miss it!”

Response by PO3 Andrew Kelly made Feb 18 at 2022 9:33 PM

2022-02-18T21:33:50-05:00

Lesson from leadership training to prepare us to take on our duties as NCOs.
Praise in public criticize in private. If you feel a need to tear down someone in front of the troops you have already lost control of the situation.

Response by SFC Larry Triplett made Feb 19 at 2022 2:51 PM

2022-02-19T14:51:15-05:00

I have only seen on CSM do that and he ended up at the Post Commanders Carpet I stood there as a new SPC4 I could not believe he was tearing my LT up. I started to say something to the CSM and was told by the CSM to keep my shit face closed. Needless to say someone saw it came by where we were standing and got our names. the next day i was told to press and shine my boots and report to the Post Commander at 13:00.
I did as I was told and showed up all spit and polish, my LT was there and the CSM, the CSM was chewed out by the Post Commander and was told to apologies to the LT, and he did. The LT was told to stand up for himself and use his rank. I was called up to his desk and he asked me why i did not speak up for my LT, I told him I tried to, but the CSM said some choice words to me Sir. He asked me what the CSM told me and I stayed quite the CG asked me what was wrong i ask him can I speak Freely. I was told I could, and I told the GC what the CSM said to me.
The CSM was told he could not talk to lower rank like that then the CG asked the CSM how long he had served and the CSM said about 28 years Sir, the CG said I see. About 2 weeks later to CSM got retirement orders. Boy I was glad to see our BN CSM leave.

Response by CPO William Hinton made Feb 19 at 2022 9:35 PM

2022-02-19T21:35:04-05:00

Should never berate anyone in front of others. Praise in public, discipline in private.
E7-E9 have an added responsibility of mentoring JOs. In you scenario the CSM is t wrong, but should do it in private.

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made Feb 24 at 2022 1:13 AM

2022-02-24T01:13:43-05:00

Generally the CSM is not going to rip the LT. He may give him some friendly advice, but if actual correction is needed the CSM will let his buddy the Captain, Major, LTC, etc… know and let them handle it. You don’t make it to that rank without knowing how to play the game. Like others mentioned, the CSM will likely attempt to correct the issue at the lowest level by having a private and friendly come to Jesus moment where he politely educates the LT in the error of his ways, but he’s not going stand there yelling at an officer unless there’s some sort of extreme circumstance. That’s just not how things are done.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Feb 27 at 2022 3:28 PM

2022-02-27T15:28:37-05:00

I never saw something like that happen. If anything if the LT did try to lock up the CSM for a bogus reason, best believe there would be a long one way conversation where the BC is involved AND doing all the talking.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2022 10:43 AM

2022-03-14T10:43:37-04:00

The old adage: "Praise in Public, but Criticize in Private" should always be true for anyone in authority, which ever rank was correcting who. I have seen instances where this went horribly bad, both a LT (Navy O3) chewing out a line aircraft maintenance handler (no safety related), and a Navy Chief (E7) chewing out a Navy LT (no safety related). Both incidents ended up having adverse career effects (less than stellar FITREP for the officer) and ostracizing from the Chiefs' Mess and eventual transfer for the Chief. As stated by others, there is a time and a place to "make a show" to teach greater lessons when safety is involved, but those occasions are rare.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jun 30 at 2022 6:26 PM

2022-06-30T18:26:30-04:00

CSMs are god, experience, wisdom of time, even a 1st LT only has 4-5 years time in service, and by comparison he's a boot. Would take big balls from the LT to butt heads right there, just a losing play I’m sure the LTs Sr would council him on protocol.