Is a field grade Article 15 with a GOMOR for an accidental covid-19 violation a bit extreme?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:10:16 -0400

I got a soldier, good soldier, not perfect but
He had recieved a recommendation for a field grade article 15 with a GOMOR for being in another soldiers barracks room with 6 other people playing spades......I was in a sergeant of the guard position at our Covid isolation center for a few months and in the middle of it I found out about what happened to my soldier... because it was ..I guess a violation of GO1 perhaps or the covid guidelines in place.......but even with all that said...all 8 soldiers are going through this...soldiers who enlisted...are away from their families...and simply wanted to
Play spades to pass time ....and they are hit with this??! Please I need some some feedback because this situation makes my blood boil that they went this far for punishment...does the GOMOR bar him from re-enlistment? How long can this last? I need some advice on this. Is it a legit punishment or could it be...politics...? I don’t think they played spades outta spite obviously, but just did it and forgot what they couldn’t do regarding the covid issues

Response by LTC Greg Henning made Oct 8 at 2020 7:14 PM

LTC Greg Henning — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:14:55 -0400

You need to talk with a JAG officer to get the real advice.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 7:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:27:45 -0400

My first read of this is Yes, this is an acceptable punishment. While it is extremely harsh, this is a violation of an order given by an General Officer (hence GO). I have seen LTs get kicked out of the Army for violating COVID rules.
Remember only JAG can offer legal advice, but my initial read of this is they were in the wrong and this punishment is reasonable for the level of violation.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 8:08 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:08:07 -0400

Orders to isolate/quarantine and not mingle with more than a set number of folks in a small area. Orders given by a General Officer. Soldiers violated said General's Order. Yep. GOMOR and FG Article 15 are what is coming. Also, if the Soldiers purposefully got together to play spades against the orders given, then it's not accidental violation. That's my read of the situation. Your Soldier and the other Soldiers are going to need to speak to JAG.

Outside of all that, the orders given are not illegal, immoral nor unethical. Therefore, your Soldier and the other Soldier can't pick and choose which orders to follow and which ones not to. It sucks. I get it. It sucks for everyone. But your Soldier decided to make this bed, now they have to sleep in it.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Oct 8 at 2020 8:12 PM

SSG Carlos Madden — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:12:35 -0400

That is a little harsh IMO but if that's what was put out by command, then that's the law. No excuse for breaking the rules regardless of the punishment.

But yeah, it's a little extreme and probably not something worth ruining a promising career over. Talk to JAG.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 8:32 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:32:40 -0400

FWIW, while assigned to South Korea, I worked in the 2 CAB Brigade TOC for a total of for a total of four months. That meant I saw everything that happened in the brigade before the BDE Commander did. The joke about "What's the fastest way to make Sergeant? Go to Korea as a Staff Sergeant" is no joke. Taking rank in Korea is a sport. I saw junior Officers get GOMORs for busting curfew, or in one case, leaving post (Camp Casey-Hovey) when specifically ordered not to. I saw Warrant Officers get some pretty severe penalties for public urination. Violating General Orders will indeed get you a GOMOR. With a GOMOR in your file, your career is effectively over.

Was the punishment in the case you listed harsh? Yes indeed. But I would imagine that the legal basis is likely pretty sound. It sucks for those Soldiers affected, but this just reinforces the idea that you must maintain situational awareness, and forgetting General Orders is not a valid defense.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 8:35 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:35:43 -0400

If these are your Soldiers, then they don’t outrank you. If they don’t outrank you, a GOMOR is not the end of their career. This will not prevent them from reenlisting. While they are flagged, yes. Years down the road the GOMOR may cause some slow down while competing for SFC. But they can still stay till retirement and most likely become a Senior NCO.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 9:03 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:03:15 -0400

Thanks for asking this question; it's good to discuss it and understand how serious these new challenges are for the force.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 9:23 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:23:29 -0400

No knowing all the particulars of the incident, I can only offer my opinion as follow. First, I will get a hard copy of the COVID-19 policies in place at the time of the incident; second, I would take that to JAG and the IG for guidance Again, seek legal advice and seek the IG perspective.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 9:53 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:53:03 -0400

Do not see the big deal if they were all in quarantine together in a designated quarantine building. But a CO enforcing what is considered a GO’s Order will likely stick unless JAG can find a loophole (fingers crossed).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 10:00 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 22:00:23 -0400

The GO Policy is in place to Protect the Force. I had a few Soldiers violate the Covid policy and they all received Field Grade ART 15s, but no GOMORs were issued.

While a 8 Soldiers in one barracks room playing spades may seem inconsequential; merely one Soldier being infected can have a damaging effect on the organization.

I had two positive tests in my Company that led to close to 40% of the Company and a majority of the barracks being tested and quarantined due to contact tracing and precaution. I called a lot of Mothers and Fathers that week, and these weren’t easy conversations to inform them of there child’s potential Covid infection.

These policies are in place for a reason, and as Noncommissioned Officers, we must enforce them. You disappointment should not be with the policy, but it should be with the Soldiers lack of discipline to obey the GO policy and potential endanger all those Soldiers in the barracks.

The legal office can provide them more information on GOMOR appeals/rebuttals and potential local or permanent filing effects and options.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Oct 9 at 2020 12:21 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 00:21:56 -0400

Is it heavy handed... probably. Is it legal... unless proven unethical, illegal, or immoral yes it is. It sucks but the military has rules and policies in place for a reason. We don't have to like them, we just have to follow to the best of our ability. Your local JAG can provide better advice/guidance than anything you'll find here.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Oct 9 at 2020 1:01 AM

SSG Brian G. — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 01:01:28 -0400

You understand that a pandemic going on right now and that something to the tune of a million people worldwide and counting have died from this Covid 19 right? And that part of the reason people have died and that millions have contracted it is due to people doing stupid things and not thinking.

Now on to your soldier and his 7 friends. First off, a General Officer issued a directive, read that as a command that filtered down through HIS command and to your unit. It is a lawful order that directs certain actions. IE social distancing, masks and limitations of the numbers in a gathered group. Your soldier and his friends chose to flaunt that order. They are not civilians. They chose to enlist and took an oath like the rest of us. So no a Field Grade with a GOMOR is not excessive. You do get that from that incident if even ONE of the soldiers tests positive then all eight have to go in quarantine for minimum 14 days not to mention the testing and additional protocols, let alone if one or more contracts the virus or worse case dies of it.

The GOMOR is permanent. As in it will be in their record forever. However, it can be overcome, it depends on the soldier as to how detrimental it is to their career. It is not a bar to reenlistment. Or should not be. They will be assigned a time to go see JAG once the charges are read to them.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Oct 9 at 2020 8:08 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 08:08:42 -0400

Not going to get involved in the Art 15 and GOMAR, contact SJA, however, let's assume your soldier is found guilty. It naturally will reflect in that reporting period regarding his conduct but not his future reports. You say he's a good soldier, not perfect; if he takes this as a learning experience, as Art 15s are meant to be, he can perform in such a manner that makes him competitive for promotion and reenlistment. It's one strike but he's not out.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Oct 9 at 2020 10:31 AM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 10:31:41 -0400

Are all of them getting the same punishment? If yes, not much you can do but ask for leniency. If they are not getting the same punishment, then there may be some leeway. Talk to your local JAG and see what they think. To be honest, I am inclined to lean towards the commander on this. If one had it, how many more would of gotten it?

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Oct 9 at 2020 11:03 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:03:57 -0400

Facts :
1) COVID-19 is a deadly disease which is easily transmissible.
2) The single greatest weapon against the spread of COVID-19 is isolation / quarantine. This is followed by social distancing, hand washing, amd masks.
3) Orders to isolate, social distance, mask, wash hands, avoid gatherings, SAVE LIVES.
4) Such orders are lawful.
5) Ignoring said orders endngers lives.
6) A game of spades requires 4 players.

Interpretation of above facts. Your Soldier willfully endangered his life and the lives of 7 other Soldiers. He violated at LEAST one lawful order to do so. Even with the premise of needing release, spades is a 4-player game, so the gathering of 8 Soldiers was unnecessary. This Soldier showed not only a blatant diarrgard for the General's authority, but a blatant diaregard for the wellbeing of himself and others. Aatempted murder might be a bridge too far - but wanton endangerment is not.

In my opinion, a FG A15 and GOMOR is LIGHT.

Response by COL Kelly Hines made Oct 9 at 2020 11:56 AM

COL Kelly Hines — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:56:13 -0400

Only thing I would add to this discussion is not to fight the punishment but seek to mitigate its effects; If your CoC does what they should, they should be talking to his leadership and the Soldier before deciding punishment. A locally filed GOMOR and suspended punishment on the ART-15 is not unheard and does not end a career but does send a pretty good warning shot across the bow...going to come down to how hard his leaders want to fight for him and of course what kind of BN CDR/GO you have.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2020 4:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 16:49:59 -0400

sounds fair to me, i know the guidance was given and they willfully disobeyed it.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 9 at 2020 8:58 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 20:58:39 -0400

Cody might want to re-read/read a UCMJ Manual- The same offense that the CO gives you a Art15, can be pushed up to a Court-Martial. Very few levels of punishment in there. Div had a policy of years that all BN Co's handled failed whizz quiz's. Why- article Fld Grade Art 15- and chapters.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Oct 10 at 2020 2:03 PM

SGT Mathew Husen — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 14:03:59 -0400

What do you think accidental means?

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Oct 11 at 2020 3:06 PM

SPC John Lebiecki — Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:06:30 -0400

Without knowing the story.....If there are policies in place, the SM has been briefed and knowlingly violates those policies, then the actions above are absolutely warranted.

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Oct 11 at 2020 3:24 PM

SPC John Lebiecki — Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:24:07 -0400

If there are policies in place to prevent exposure, the SM has been briefed and has knowingly violated said policies then the actions listed above are warranted. I’ve had friends who contracted this and it has not been a pleasant experience (they are still feeling the after effects months afterwards.) My wife had a family member die from it.

Response by SGT Apollo Sharpe made Nov 9 at 2020 7:24 AM

SGT Apollo Sharpe — Mon, 09 Nov 2020 07:24:52 -0500

Are you serious with this? Your soldier disobeyed an order given by a General. How in the blue f*ck can you be surprised that the end result is an FGA & A GOMOR? This is nothing more than a simple case of “Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes”.

Response by SFC R. Lee Linebarger made Nov 10 at 2020 5:46 AM

SFC R. Lee Linebarger — Tue, 10 Nov 2020 05:46:05 -0500

Yup! It goes to show our military leadership has lost their backbone.

While I believe COVID is real, I believe masks, and quarantine measures are extreme and not working, my opinion folks so don't get yiur junk in a twist.

Response by SFC Wilfredo Ramos made Nov 15 at 2020 7:31 PM

SFC Wilfredo Ramos — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:31:21 -0500

This is not an "accidental covid-19 violation". Covid 19 guidelines had been in place for a quit bit. If the Soldiers decide to ignore the Generals order they put themself on this no excuse.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Dec 3 at 2020 5:50 AM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 05:50:49 -0500

You're going to have to talk to JAG on this one.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Dec 18 at 2020 5:29 PM

CPT Mike Sims — Fri, 18 Dec 2020 17:29:02 -0500

In a time where Antifa and BLM are burning down cities, in a time where wars have spanned generations - and the current generation could care less about serving, in a time where COVID can run rampant through an aircraft carrier, and at a time when patriotism is called racist... perhaps measures such as these are still part of a generation that plays a Zero Defect environment - and while they would crucify young Soldiers who merely wanted to bond, these same leaders are silent on Toxic Leadership & Sexual Assault... or even worse - they are guilty of these acts. The divide and distrust between the rank and file continues to grow, but even more concerning is the trust that is being lost as parents (many who are Veterans and have served in these horrific conditions with poor leaders and Zero Defect environments) are advising their children to search elsewhere - anywhere other than the military, especially other than the Army for a future... because that future may very well leave you with a battered past, lifetime injuries, TBI, PTSD, burn pit injuries, contaminated water diseases, a history of serial assaults, and instead of learning from coaches and mentors - young people learned from Toxic Leaders on how to be bullies in uniform. What happened to our Army?!?!

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Dec 21 at 2020 9:53 PM

SPC Brian Stephens — Mon, 21 Dec 2020 21:53:18 -0500

I would rather these kids played spades than shoot themselves in isolation.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2020 11:40 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Dec 2020 11:40:33 -0500

First they broke an order. So they knew they were breaking it. Now they made there bed deal with it. Next really away from family wtf not kids grow up. Follow the orders given.

Response by SP5 Paul Riley made Dec 27 at 2020 5:42 PM

SP5 Paul Riley — Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:42:40 -0500

Thats no worse than me getting a field grade article 15 for rolling my eyes at a senior NCO or later on ,Thanksgiving, the same senior NCO threatening to give me another article 15 for refusal to attend Thanksgiving dinner because I wasn't ready to go eat as a specialist.

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Jan 10 at 2021 5:10 PM

SGT Randall Smith — Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:10:40 -0500

Disobeying a Generals order is stupid and carries a penalty with it . But as a article 15 and not a Courts Martial they can probably ride it out over a year or so. Lay you odds that if you went to the Officers Club there would be little or no social distancing.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Feb 23 at 2022 12:55 AM

CPT Mike Sims — Wed, 23 Feb 2022 00:55:55 -0500

Discuss this with your Commander(s) at each level, raising it to your Company / Battery / Troop Commander first, along with the First Sergeant, and then to the Battalion and Brigade Commanders - along with the Command Sergeant Major at each level... and state that this is a Re-enlistment / Readiness issue. Ask them can they advocate on behalf of these Soldiers along with the Senior Staff Judge Advocate to have the GOMOR removed from their files. In addition, have these Soldiers write a letter to the General who issued the GOMOR - 1.) Apologizing for their actions; 2.) Explaining that they made a mistake by wanting what the Army trained them to be - and what they were only seeking out... a cohesive unit of brothers - a team, and 3.) They never acted with a plan or specific intent to disobey the General, and that because of their youthfulness - they didn't give full consideration as to why those orders were initiated, but now they understand and have had time to reflect, and in doing so with their intent to continue to serve in the Army not just as Soldier - but as future leaders, 4.) They now seek the General's mercy in pleading to remove the GOMOR from their permanent records so that they may re-enlist, or seek opportunities as NCOs, Warrant Officers, or Commissioned Officers as they move forward in their Army career.

*** Good luck! I suspect the General did this as a means to set an example across the force and these troops were the sacrificial lambs in what has turned out to be a very political situation.