Is a school for Master Sergeants Necessary?

2014-11-12T09:07:47-05:00

We previously suggested that certain schools should be offered earlier than the current system--long before promotion to the next higher rank.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2014/11/11/new-master-sergeant-course/18813527/

New education course to fill E-8 'knowledge gap'

A new Army course will prepare newly promoted master sergeants for the next step in their careers. A pilot of the new course could be ready this fall.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Nov 12 at 2014 10:30 AM

2014-11-12T10:30:26-05:00

SGM Private RallyPoint Member , I thought that the SGMs Academy WAS the school for a MSGs next step up? I do not see any need for another school because if a SM was knowledgeable enough to make MSG then they should not have to go to another school just for their rank.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Nov 12 at 2014 11:07 AM

2014-11-12T11:07:34-05:00

I think before this happens, we should go back and look at why the Army got rid of it in the first place. What will they teach in this course that you won't get from SLC and a local 1SG/CDR course?

Response by SSG Jason Cherry made Nov 12 at 2014 11:31 AM

2014-11-12T11:31:42-05:00

I think we should stop promoting people who don't have the skills and knowledge necessary to take the next step. Most of the leadership problems I see stem from accelerated promotions without experience. Standards and discipline have taken a huge hit because it's hard to instill discipline if you have none, and you can't enforce standards if you don't know them.

"Early findings show many leaders agree the course should include training in areas such as writing, briefing senior leaders, operations management, training management, mission command, doctrine, critical thinking, operating in a joint environment, problem solving and staff integration, Defreese said." -

Seriously? By the time you are an E8 you should know army writing, since we have to do it in WLC/ALC/SLC.

Anyone who is an NCO should be able to give a damn briefing or be fired.

Operations management? what do they mean by this? maintaining operational awareness and management of personnel? another key NCO task that should be known by this point. If they mean it from a staff point of view, there are staff courses for that already.

Training management... I don't even want to get into this. If you can't manage training by E8, you have failed as a Soldier and the Army has failed as an institution.

Mission Command/doctrine/joint ops/staff integration - staff course, 1sg course

Critical thinking and problem solving? surely by E8 you should have some thinking and problem solving skills... WLC/ALC/SLC not enough? or do E8's have grade specific problems that no one could possibly come up with a solution to except by going through this school they are proposing?

The entire subject is just some BS that a good idea fairy though up to get a medal or a bullet on their evaluation, or to create new jobs for their friends.

http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/warrior-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/advanced-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/senior-leader-course.html
https://usasma.bliss.army.mil/page.asp?id=3

Forgive my brash response to this, but we should fix the Army structure as it is, before adding new crap to it.

It's like shining up the tires on your car, which are flat, and the engine knocks, and the windshield is cracked, and the battery is dead. Why?

SGM Private RallyPoint Member , I agree with the suggestion of offering schools sooner. We shouldn't teach you how to do your job once you get there, we should teach you before you get there.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2014 12:41 PM

2014-11-12T12:41:48-05:00

NO! They've already dismissed the 1sgs course. At that, they dumbed it down so bad that it wasn't challenging. 1sg course is a good course to have. Just need to modify it. Battle staff and support operations phase 2 prepare seasoned seniors for the staff positions.

Problem is the seniors selected. Most don't want to play. So junior guys get those slots. I went to battle staff with more SSG than msg. More lt than Cpt. They were hungry for the ASI. The msg weren't hungry at all. Some felt that they got theirs so what's the bother. Another ncoes school with the current curriculum would be horrid. Hard enough to sit still diring BNCOC ancoc. Learned to buff floors again. But not much else. And that was years ago.

Before I vote a yes, I would like to see what exactly they are planning to teach me. Until then, answer is a solid no!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 11:23 PM

2014-11-13T23:23:30-05:00

Absolutely YES! As new Master Sergeants, many, if not most will be assuming positions on Battalion/Bde/or higher Command Staff positions, having new responsibilities that they most likely have not experienced. They will be writing operation orders, frag orders, training plans; dealing with senior officers; responsible for managing organizational training (no longer Platoon or individual unit training); they will given tasks to solve (what is the best way to implement this thru out the Bn/Bde); They will be requried to know more than their MOS and have to understand the complexities of organizational issues above company/unit and consider effects and impacts on all MOSs in that organization. Tactically speaking, they learned tactics at unit level, however at Bn/Bde/higher they must learn tactics above that level, which means learning the way of the present and the future and that brings them to doctrine and even joint operations. Newly promoted Master Sergeants are not prepared for this. It's not their fault, and I believe its time the Army makes it happen.

Also, First Sergeants will not alway be First Sergeants for the most part. E8s can go from MSG to 1SG and back again. The Course should be for both 1SG/MSGs.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 2:07 AM

2014-11-14T02:07:49-05:00

I initially thought NO, and then I started thinking about what is currently happening in my unit and units across the Army. We have a big population of SFCs serving in 1SG positions and I am sorry but the merger between the old FSC and now SLC just does not prepare anyone to assume the awesome responsibility of any Company, Battery, Troop or Detachment! Here lies the real problem, what do 1SGs really need to help them be successful in performing and understanding their duties but more importantly supporting their commanders with solid answers and experience? I read a few posts already and have to agree that as a senior NCO or 1SG you should know how to conduct briefings, write and provide critical feedback on awards, evaluations and other personnel actions but in truth you don’t really gain that experience at the platoon sergeant or squad leader level. Think about it, as a SFC you might write or review 12-15 NCOERs in a year unless a (42A). As a 1SG I processed well over 163 evaluations last year alone to include multiple relief for causes for misconduct. I didn’t have, nor learn those experiences in any school or prior to any assignment before I became a 1SG. I am not saying the Army doesn’t need it but instead clearly to do newly selected MSGs any justice the curriculum needs to have a solid direction that applies to what a 1SG is doing in today’s Army. In my respectful opinion, some of the topics for this new MLC are just not what a 1SG clearly needs to be set up for success.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 8:19 AM

2014-11-17T08:19:38-05:00

In my personal opinion I would say yes simply because every NCOES school I have been in I enjoyed it very much although the courseware was not up to what people expected. I have learned so much from my battles and their experiences and of course got a chance to network.

Response by SPC Joseph Ahner made Feb 27 at 2017 3:03 PM

2017-02-27T15:03:17-05:00

I'd say that they need to fix the Basic Leaders Course first before they worry about the MSG's. From what I've seen and heard its a joke. Modern NCO's need to know more about how to deal with soldiers and tactical shit and far less about Dog and Pony bullshit.