Is a standard black and white?

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 18:54:41 -0400

Soldiers just completed a 32-hour mission on the road. They get to a tiny FOB in Iraq and have 12 minutes left to grab food before the chow hall closes. The Soldiers are not freshly shaved and cannot easily access their personal hygiene items therefore technically out of regulation. Would you enforce the standard and make the Soldiers immediately go shave or would you not enforce the standard and let the Soldiers go eat?

With so many responses on RP about how we don’t have the right to pick and choose which standards we enforce, what would you do?

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 17 at 2014 7:01 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:01:53 -0400

In the scenario you listed, anyone who does not let these solders eat deserves the fragmentation grenade that was rolled into their tent.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Jul 17 at 2014 7:05 PM

SSG Ed Mikus — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:05:46 -0400

Standards are there for a reason, but health of the service member comes first, and although that is part of the reason for this particular standard i would still ensure they eat first.

I feel it is their leaders responsibility to ensure they do, and head up whom ever confronts them, if they are destine to be denied food then other arrangements should be made by the command to care for them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 7:07 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:07:10 -0400

Times like this the fifth principal of patrolling comes into play. I have had this happen to use on our last tour. Our JSS was horrible and would try to run guys to the chow hall at the VBC or Fob Falcon. I have to say that it was hit or miss. I have been turned away and other times I would be let in with my dirty sweaty soldiers. I recall Patton felt that you had to enforce all the regulations the same.

Below is an excerpt from a book about the fighting in north Africa.

(Patton quickly identified a lack of discipline as one of his command's major problems. He therefore enforced a strict regime of military courtesies and uniform regulations, including the requirement to wear ties, leggings, and helmets on duty-Patton's "beanie campaign"-to remind his troops "that the pre-Kasserine days had ended, and that a tough new era had begun." "If men do not obey orders in small things, they are incapable of being led in battle," Patton recorded in his diary. "I will have discipline-to do otherwise is to commit murder.")

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 7:21 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:21:25 -0400

After 32 hours on the road...I would have let them eat.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Jul 17 at 2014 7:29 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:29:02 -0400

Thank you for your feedback. I want everyone here to understand my point behind posting such a "DUH" question.

The point is YES there is a time and place when we should pick and choose which regulations to follow. Regulations are not black and white and neither are the majority of situations we run into.

Accomplish your mission. Use your head. Look out for your Soldiers.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 7:35 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:35:36 -0400

Send the asian soldier or female soldier who can't grow facial hair into the chow hall and grab to go boxes for everybody while their buddies shave their faces.

With 12 minutes, everybody should be able to pull their hygiene stuff out and clean their faces, and still have 5 minutes to make movement to chow.

Patrol leader should have factored hygiene into the patrol order.

Have all the soldiers remove their rank and identification and pretend to be interpreters.

I would have a great relationship with the field mess folks and have them drop off hot meals to where ever we are at.

Anyways, most of those are for fun, some legit, but my Marines and I will never miss chow.

Go grab some MRE's.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 7:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:43:11 -0400

Have to-go plates prepared for their imminent arrival? The difference between a regulation and a policy is how high you have to go up to obtain an exception. Wait, why are we in Iraq again?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 7:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:51:11 -0400

I remember running into this issue a lot. We came in once every 2 weeks or so for re-fit in Baghdad. The DFAC NCOIC said we couldn't come in and eat because we were dirty. My team leader at the time said "stop me then" and our platoon went through and ate of course. Like any good Infantryman would do we found the cleanest people possible and ate next to them.

Response by PO1 Brian Palay made Jul 17 at 2014 7:52 PM

PO1 Brian Palay — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 19:52:59 -0400

Food first shave later, it's better to have a full stomach than going postal

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 17 at 2014 8:37 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:37:03 -0400

America may run on Dunkin but the Army runs on its stomach. Eat first, shave later.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 8:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:40:53 -0400

People in uniform that never leave the FOB and, in some cases, TCNs that are there for "security" don't understand and probably don't really care. All they're worried about is their paycheck or getting back to their spank tank to play their xbox.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Jul 17 at 2014 8:42 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:42:35 -0400

SSG V. Michelle Woods I would like to thank you for making this post in this manner. I think it has led to people relooking at accepted wisdom in a new (and better) light.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2014 10:06 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:06:40 -0400

If a humble SPC-4 May step in and share his view, that is a very dangerous situation for whoever tries to stop them. Depending on how well folk deal with fatigue and who is telling them they can't eat, I could definitely see a physical altercation occurring.
On the more general question, standards are there for a reason, but so is the 5th principle of patrol. To give an example, we had to go to sick call in the morning if we had a medical problem and wanted it taken care of, we couldn't just walk in to the health clinic (former BN policy). I came out of a field problem with a nasty infection on my arm. I didn't notice it because I got dressed in the dark that morning and just thought it was a dumb achey pain. When I went to the clinic, I was not turned away when I explained my situation. What would the benefit have been if I was told that I missed sick call because I was in the field and didn't notice the problem? In a more extreme hypothetical, if it were a life and death situation, where following a reg would cause unnecessary harm to life or property, or not following that regulation would prevent said unnecessary harm, can you justify following it?
Anyhow, in this man's opinion, the reason that you leaders are all leaders is because you make larger decisions. It is up to you to be able to be the "HMFIC" and make decisions based on what gets the job done. In my opinion your job is not to solely be able to memorize every regulation and make sure they are followed regardless of the consequences.
If I'm wrong, please tell me. If you can't criticize, you can't optimize.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jul 17 at 2014 11:46 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:46:57 -0400

You make sure they clear their weapons and get some chow

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Jul 18 at 2014 1:25 AM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 01:25:09 -0400

Let em eat. Common Sense in an uncommon virtue in the military sometimes.

This actually reminds me a a situation that I saw aboard Camp Dwyer in Afghanistan. There was a Marine in the DFAC that was in green on green PT gear. Well Marines don't allow people in PT gear in the DFAC (especially at lunch). Well I could tell the guy was experienced and wasn't going to get up walk across the DFAC to see what was up because I am sure he had a good reason.

Well there was a 1stSgt that wasn't going to let a regulation be broken so he LOUDLY confronted the Marine in a very challenging way. Well needless to say the individual replied back even louder the he knew that G*^D@&N regulations and if he hadn't had to have been cut out of his cammies the day before when he got "blown the F#$K UP" he would be in uniform and not in the only clothes he had been able to get while aboard the camp.

Needless to say the 1stSgt tucked tail apologized and left the DFAC

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 8:58 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 08:58:32 -0400

SSG Woods, you are confusing picking and choosing which standard to enforce, with using common sense and protecting the health and welfare of the Soldiers.

The Soldiers need to eat to be healthy, now, had they been at the FOB for a longer period of time then rushed at the last minute to get chow after messing around doing nothing first, then that may be a different story. But in your scenario, let them eat and then let them be on their way to get cleaned up and shaved.

My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind, accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. Sums it up

***EDIT***
I have read your responses talking about proving that regs should not always be enforced. Of course you will enforce the shaving regulation just not before the Soldier eats. You have priorities as a leader. To be a GOOD leader you have to know how to prioritize! All regulations matter and need to be enforced, but in this case health and welfare of the Soldiers takes priority over shaving. Both WILL be done in the end.

Response by SPC Dennis Mullins made Jul 18 at 2014 9:13 AM

SPC Dennis Mullins — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:13:39 -0400

Definitely Eat!

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jul 18 at 2014 9:50 AM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:50:55 -0400

When we were in Iraq/Kuwait in 2003, we had water rations, so it was drink water or shave and shower with your drinking water. Which do you presume I did? I actually cursed out folks who tried to bathe with other than baby wipes for those two months invading the country all the way to Mosul. I think it was something like 37 days without a shower and 15 or so for shaving. The battalion commander and all who were "getting with it" did not have time to either.

Point is, some of my aircrew flew to Doha and were in the PX picking up things and were dressed out by a LTC for smelling and not having a clean face. The folks in Doha were not crossing the border 3-4 daily inserting troops and living in the back of a Chinook for more than 30 days. Situational awareness is key when determining to enforce or not.

Response by SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham made Jul 18 at 2014 11:01 AM

SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:01:39 -0400

Standards are just that, standard. What happens if you perform more sit-ups than needed for 100%? At times, the standards can be observed without being enforced. A soldier's life "usually" falls within the "standards" but we all know that in a fire-fight at 1700, we don't stand and salute the flag just because we hear the music. We learned that some military regs should be ignored on occasion when the US Revolutionary Forces took advantage of British tea times, musket lines, and sleeping arrangements that were compliant to the standards of the day.
Feed them smelly soldiers!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 11:44 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:44:37 -0400

How is this even a question? Obviously, let them eat! People first, always. I've been chewed out, I can handle it. If someone wants to question me letting someone fresh off of patrol eat because they haven't shaved, they can go ahead and take my crows.

Response by SGT Patrick Daniels made Jul 18 at 2014 11:48 AM

SGT Patrick Daniels — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:48:20 -0400

Food first, shave later

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 12:06 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:06:35 -0400

We are all selective. I mean who really tracks down their male Soldiers to ensure that they are shaving on leave? How about when a female's hair is out of place during APFT? Do we stop them? I like to think that I have what few people seem to have at times as it is not issued by the military: common sense. Get those Soldiers to chow. You have to take care of your Soldiers. I remember when I had friends who were in Iraq and they had to go on convoys to go get hygiene products like soap. I mailed them boxes in order for him to give to his troops like a good leader that I know he was. How about the first wave of troops into Iraq? They barely had time to stop and sleep and no shelter when they did but their own vehicles. Did they shave? I bet you that most did not do it on a daily basis.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 12:15 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:15:55 -0400

You let them eat. Taking care of our Soldiers should always be first priority. I would have no problem getting talked to or yelled at for this decision. I would be quick to point out the facts of the mission and tell whom ever is making the on the spot correct that they are not wrong however my guys have been out on a long mission and do to the short time frame to get them in to eat that they have been directed to shave right after eating with no exceptions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 1:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 13:00:29 -0400

I have personally experienced this exact scenario. We had been stuck on the side of the road in Fallujah in 2009 waiting for recovery assets. We had been on the road for about 10 hours when we broke down. it had been 23 hours before we were recovered and made it back to the FOB and we got to the chow hall about 15-20 minutes before closing time.

They let us in, but the power-tripping E5 made sure to stare us down and mention that we were in "soiled" uniforms and that we appeared to not have shaved. Our LT informed this young NCO that we had just come in off of the road after nearly 24 hours without sleep or relief and that we would all be cleaned up later.

If the NCO had denied access to the chow hall, I know that it would have caused him a LOT more grief in the long run. He did the right thing.

Response by PO3 Nathan Barr made Jul 18 at 2014 1:38 PM

PO3 Nathan Barr — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 13:38:42 -0400

Well this is an interesting point of view, and here is my take on it:

You mention a chow hall. To me, as a veteran of Marine Corps deployments, there is no such thing as a chow hall unless you're in the rear with the gear. Such a location would not be tiny, and it would also have other amenities, in addition to the chow hall, associated with larger FOBs (midnight sandwiches, MWR, showers, etc.). In this case, they definitely need to go shave and shower. There are multiple units in these locations, and nobody wants to be known as the undisciplined gaggle. Plus, chances are approximately 100% that they will still have access to after-hours food services or MREs as a last resort.

On the flip side, and what I have experienced, if this is truly a small, forward location, there would be no chow hall. You would have a small Patrol Base being manned by half of a platoon who alternate sleep/watch/patrol schedules to maintain control over the area for which they are responsible. In this case, all they'll have is MREs, HOWEVER, even though the food would still be there after they shave, they should eat first. It is a core responsibility as leadership in situations such as this to not only maintain, but to promote morale as much as possible. The shaving will still happen. So there wouldn't be a violation of standards. It will just be delayed shortly while a group of weary Marines (soldiers, sailors, etc.) try to relax and regroup after what has been at the very least a very physically trying mission.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jul 18 at 2014 4:46 PM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 16:46:08 -0400

Having faced this same situation on more than one occasion, some "standards" need to be flexible, others cannot be. Leaders, not managers can make the difference in determining what is needed under different situations.

Food and morale is much more important than enforcing an arbitrary rule set for "normal" day-to-day enforcement. Let the Soldiers go eat!

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jul 18 at 2014 7:14 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 19:14:04 -0400

I would have fought tooth and nail with whomever it took to get my Soldiers fed, period.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 10:37 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:37:10 -0400

SSG V. Michelle Woods For all of those who think it is that simple.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2014 10:39 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:39:11 -0400

The question is that mission needs will always dictate enforcement of standards. Take for example when I was in the Air Force we use to have recalls where a person would get a phone call in the middle of the night. The point was that we were simulating going to war. In which case the standard was you come in no showering or shaving just throw on your uniform and get to work. Once you signed in you waited for your tasks and then started to knock them out.
While standards are important it has been my experience that most standards are flexible usually by the commander. There are some that are iron clad mainly for security reasons. It is just a matter of reading and interpreting what the regulation says and that is all of the regulation. Because some will surprise you, an example of this is that in the old AFI 34-219 prior to 2007 it stated that an AF member could have a beer with "a meal" it never defined what meal and it did not define how big the beer had to be, I used this fact to get a day off of work. So it pays to read the entire regulation.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jul 18 at 2014 10:50 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:50:55 -0400

What will probably happen is someone will bicker with the squad leader forcing him/her to miss dinner while the other soldiers slip in and grab to-go plate. Hopefully the squad leader team built their unit enough that they think about him/her and grab the squad leader a plate while they are at it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 8:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 08:33:57 -0400

A standard is only so if everyone follows it. The requirement to shave isn't a standard but is a regulation, and violation in and of itself is not punitive. Also, a commander has the authority to adjust personal appearance requirements based on mission demand and hygiene resources. An example of this would be relaxed grooming standards due to a lack of sanitized water with which to conduct personal hygiene. Resources and field manuals such as field sanitation help guide commander's decisions when it comes to these matters. NCOs derive their authority from commanders and leaders subordinate to the commander carry out their duties within that commander's intent and to meet the appropriate end state. So to answer your question, shaving would not be my first priority, and I would not require personal hygiene prior to chow and mission requirements. Shaving can wait until the mission and such are over. However it is my responsibility to ensure that decision would reflect my commander's policy and sentiment.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 10:29 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 10:29:05 -0400

SSG V. Michelle Woods I think part of that mission was to eat and since it is not actually war then eating should be a priority. :)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 1:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 13:53:28 -0400

The Army presents many situations where leaders have to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to enforce a reg. Let's say I have a soldier who goes to sick call for severe back pain, the medics don't issue profiles; instead they schedule an appointment with the PA about a week out. Now am I going to make this injured Soldier do PRT when they don't have a profile for a back injury? For the first time in my army career I have a 1SG who does what I have wanted my leadership to do. Give that Soldier leeway until they have a profile in hand. We are not doctors. Do you want to to be responsible for causing that Soldier more injury simply because you want to discourage malingering? Let the doctors determine that. Now feed those troops. Facial hair isn't going to cause them to fall out.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 1:54 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 13:54:10 -0400

For me, it's not a question of enforcing regs. It's a matter of right and wrong. These soldiers have obviously been working hard and are probably pretty hungry. Even if they're out of regs, it'd be wrong to deny them food.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 3:29 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 15:29:35 -0400

Let the soldiers eat! A little morale goes a long way!

Response by CPT Jack Norris made Jul 19 at 2014 3:34 PM

CPT Jack Norris — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 15:34:52 -0400

Considering the arduous timeline required for these Soldiers to be outside the wire, for hours, days, and potentially even longer, to deny them the opportunity to eat is vulgar. Their refit time is potentially limited, perhaps only two or three hours. Between being able to shoot an email off to loved ones, grab a first hot shower in, who knows how long, and repack, to expect them to be able to wait around for the next meal, just so they can have one decent one is criminal, and a hindrance to the mission.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 3:49 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 15:49:53 -0400

What would I do? I'd let the Soldiers go eat. If some CSM (or heaven forbid, the actual current SMA) got in my way of letting them do that, I'd collect their ID cards, run into the chow hall myself, get them food, and bring it out to them. If the Sergeant Major balked at THAT, I'd tell him "oh well, I don't take orders from NCOs, go whine to my commander."

Response by CPL BamBam Mott made Jul 19 at 2014 3:59 PM

CPL BamBam Mott — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 15:59:42 -0400

I have seen situations where soldiers who got held up because of some hitch in the mission held them up. Their higher chain of command was at some other OP,and because the base they ended up at had so many high ranking officers they got turned away from chow when they had very little time to restock their combat loads, use a decent bathroom, get that chow and be back out. The squads sergeants eventually got physical with the one sgt stopping their troops from getting some hot food. Those soldiers of my squad at the time we didn't get hot food often. We lived in the mountains in Afgahn. They wouldn't fly us food, there was no roads to my FB. Yet we walked everywhere and lived off of very little. An if my SGT hadn't done that we would not have eaten. We would have carried on, tried to procure some MRE's, but then your looking at humane versus foolish. Heck we were gone long before anyone could stop us and we heard nothing else from it. As infantry and where we were at we didn't carry hygiene kits with us. You were lucky to still have a decent razor.

Response by SSG Christopher Hart made Jul 19 at 2014 7:30 PM

SSG Christopher Hart — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 19:30:02 -0400

Let the soldiers go eat. Now that I answered I'm going to comment. This is why the military is so f@#ked up due to poor leadership. We have way too many sergeants and not enough NCO's, see NCO's don't allow these so call leaders do s@#t like this. The question should not have been asked, questions like this show that there are poor leadership. Yes I'm that NCO that could not make E7 simply cause I tell it like it is. I don't brown nose and sure as hell don't back down for no one, regardless of rank.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 11:01 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:01:51 -0400

They would eat. And I take responsibility for my command that they do so.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 11:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 23:05:32 -0400

They would eat. And I take responsibility for my command that they do so. I learned that by being in a program where the catch-phrase was "WHATCHA GONNA DOOOO PLLLLL?!!! We were taught to make a decision and own it

Response by SPC Darby Quinn made Jul 20 at 2014 1:02 AM

SPC Darby Quinn — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 01:02:52 -0400

Does anyone even know all of the regulations? I do know that there are many that do near nothing but study ARs, but there are so many, and so many that contradict each other, that there is literally no choice but to use common sense, especially down range. Garrison being a training ground, a stricter enforcement of regulations is a necessity to advance the readiness of the unit, however, common sense should still be a factor in the enforcement process.

Response by SPC Carl Smith made Jul 20 at 2014 2:01 AM

SPC Carl Smith — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 02:01:32 -0400

I would send in the cleanest soldiers I have to collect as many plates as they can by giving the dfac all their id cards so that the soldiers that are out of regs can stay in their truck and not offend the personnel in the chow hall, regulations are regulations and the standard should be upheld at all times.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2014 2:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 02:17:38 -0400

Simple, 'Ok men, we got 12 minutes left to grab something to eat at the mess hall, wash your hands before you eat then come back and hit the shower.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2014 2:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:48:01 -0400

In the army, there are these wonderful things we like to call Priorities of Work. At this point of their mission, CHOW heavily outweighs personal hygiene. It's not about enforcing a standard, it's about allowing Soldiers to intake food to keep them alert in a combat zone. After chow is over, they can square away their hygiene and perform weapons maintenance and after ops PMCS on their vehicles.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2014 3:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 15:00:33 -0400

Anyone who stresses over appearance in a combat zone isn't working hard enough. I remember the chow hall on FOB Marez kicking out terps and civilians because they weren't wearing soft caps (when most of them weren't given them in the first place). A lot of unit commanders tended to treat Iraq as an NTC rotation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2014 3:37 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 15:37:14 -0400

This isn't a black and white - there are several ways good leaders could figure out this problem - for me, it's simple priorities of work. Limited amount of time to grab chow - grab chow first.

Another leader might have them grab to go boxes (or send one Soldier to grab to go boxes for the entire team). Another leader might have them eat MRE's - not the best for morale, but if they're setting their work schedule around chow time (we've all done it) - the times they're on the road would get predictable - making them easier targets.

One things for sure - the Soldiers should definitely eat (doesn't matter what it is) and the Soldiers should shave. The two actions aren't mutually exclusive (both can be done).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2014 8:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 20:25:34 -0400

Standards MUST be enforced, but not at the cost of basic needs. If one must choose between beans and bullets or shave and a haircut, it is every NCO's duty to ensure the beans and bullets before they concern themselves with grooming standards. This does not mean that grooming standards are not enforced, it simply means that other things must be a priority.

Response by SGT Courtney Vickery made Jul 20 at 2014 9:51 PM

SGT Courtney Vickery — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 21:51:36 -0400

Eat first.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Jul 20 at 2014 10:48 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Sun, 20 Jul 2014 22:48:52 -0400

Ever hear the phrase, "The person with the loaded weapon ALWAYS wins the argument!"?

Any asshat who is more worried about unshaven soldiers than they are combat operations is the textbook definition of why our military is in the sorry shape it's become.

Of course, it would be prudent to make sure the DFAC staff was aware the team had just rolled back inside the wire. Sometimes a little explanation can eliminate all sorts of complications.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made Jul 21 at 2014 12:13 AM

SFC Stephen Carden — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 00:13:02 -0400

So I have always been told that regulations are for the GUIDANCE of the Commander and are not chiseled into stone tablets. A good Commander applies a dash of regulations, a dollop of common sense, and a heaping spoonful of experience into every decision he or she makes. Several posters said it already, but clearly this is a prioritization issue. What is more important: clean-shaven but hungry troops or unshaven but fed? I gotta tell you, I work with SOF troops from all services, and I would hate to be the guy that told any of them that they couldn't come in the chow hall after a 32-hour mission. Dude. It would be ugly. Now, if we were at Ft Bragg and a guy tried to come in the chow hall unshaven, then turn him away because the standards are posted and there is no good reason why he couldn't have shaved. Downrange, however, is different. We don't all have fobbit hours and fobbit access to hygiene facilities and fobbit access to the PX. There are real guys outside the wire actually fighting the war who don't have Salsa night and USO shows to get to. Call me crazy, but shouldn't THEY be the priority? Better yet, leave the chow hall open 24-hours so guys coming off patrol can just go when they can go. That is how we did it in AFG (on a SOF compound). There wasn't hot food all night, but they did put the leftovers form dinner out and there was a microwave. There were also sandwiches, fruit, cereal, etc. So no matter what time a group rolled in, they could always get something to eat. I once heard it took an average of 10 support troops to support one infantryman. Nobody said they couldn't be surly about it, I guess. Oh, and if the term "fobbit" offends you, then you probably are one.

Response by SGT Jonathan Williams made Jul 21 at 2014 1:33 AM

SGT Jonathan Williams — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 01:33:33 -0400

12 minutes left? The Soldiers have to eat. I knew that I needed my Soldiers to operate at peak efficiency. The creed steps in here "...accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers" It would be counter to both the mission and the welfare of those Soldiers to trade food for shaving. They can shave after eating. What is an ass chewing anyway?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 10:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:14:16 -0400

The best military quote I've ever heard was a simple one. "A leader has only two jobs - the accomplishment of the mission and the welfare of their people". This statement is, more or less, the true "standard". It distills all of the various notions of "duty" down into one simple sentence.

The rules, regulations, and guidelines that we have in place are not standards. They are merely tools used to try to enforce the standard. They will sometimes fail. When there is an obvious discrepancy between a rule or regulation and the standard it is trying to achieve, the standard should be the guiding factor.

We don't need rule enforcers. We need people with common sense and good judgement, who understand what the end result is supposed to be - and how to get there.

Response by SGT Richard Calderon made Jul 21 at 2014 11:56 AM

SGT Richard Calderon — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 11:56:52 -0400

Let them eat. While deployed to Afghanistan my platoon and I ran into a similar situation. We had just come in from a forty-five day rotation out in the Korengal. No showers during this time. Imagine how we looked and smelled. It was mid-dinner chow time. The NCO in charge of the chow line told us to leave because we were too dirty. We stood our ground while one of us went and notified our CSM. CSM Carabello. Needless to say we ate without showering. I do however feel that all standards should be enforced. There are also times when you must forgo/make an exception to the standards when the situation dictates.

Response by Capt Gardea Christian made Jul 21 at 2014 12:26 PM

Capt Gardea Christian — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:26:48 -0400

According to regulations, you do not let them eat.

According to common sense and rationale thought, you let them eat in the chow hall or at a minimum, let them get food from the chow hall and eat it somewhere else.

If by tiny FOB, you mean company position or smaller, you change the regulations to allow troops returning from patrol to eat in the chow hall if the chow hall is closing in 30 minutes or less. You do not want the troops on patrol worrying about returning to base in time to hygiene and eat in the chow hall over situational awareness.

At the end of the day most troops can hygiene in less than 5 minutes which would allow 7 minutes to make it the chow hall and grab food and eat. Everyone went through some sort of basic training where time to eat was minimal.

In my opinoin, that regulation is more suited to large FOBs where on the go meals can be made and waiting for troops who cannot make the chow hall times due to duties.

Response by LCDR Michael DeShazo made Jul 21 at 2014 7:49 PM

LCDR Michael DeShazo — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 19:49:06 -0400

In this scenario, if you don't let the soldiers eat, you are a POG a-hole and should be required to ruck up and leave the wire with them next time. After you recover from a well deserved beating.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 8:09 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:09:27 -0400

Well of course they are going to eat. But what horrible leadership is not making sure that the chow will be ready for them no matter their condition?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 8:40 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:40:50 -0400

It's called a to go plate. Been there done that many times you'll be ok.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Jul 21 at 2014 9:27 PM

Capt Jeff S. — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:27:10 -0400

They eat. It's kind of a no-brainer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 9:43 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:43:22 -0400

Have a soldier who is within regs get the soldiers who aren't some takeout meals.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 10:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:45:22 -0400

I had a great CSM tell me several times, if your going to error, error on the side of solider. Take the ass chewing later but make sure your troops eat chow.

Response by SPC Roen Mitchell made Jul 21 at 2014 11:48 PM

SPC Roen Mitchell — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 23:48:14 -0400

It shouldn't even come up as a question....You have hard working soldiers who need to eat and keep on the mission. If the DFAC is goin to close get your guys in and out then worry about the shave, have a good NCO ready to run point for the guys heading into the DFAC and hit it hard and fast lol. Then get out before any heat can be brought to bear. If you catch flak it'll be after the fact and they can't take the food out of your troops.

Response by CPL David Harvey made Jul 22 at 2014 12:11 AM

CPL David Harvey — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 00:11:11 -0400

Mission first, people always...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 8:47 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:47:27 -0400

The majority of the replies here seem focused on the choice between eating or not eating, and of course, the choice in that scenario is clear. Let them eat. What is not so clear are the circumstances, and the potential unintended consequences of hastily made decisions. I'll play devil's advocate for a moment, and give a different point of view that doesn't see just two choices. The rationale for not allowing dirty Soldiers into a DFAC is based upon the idea that a DFAC must be a clean environment and enforcing hygiene is a force protection measure put into place to preserve combat power. So the first question I would ask when confronted with conflicting priorities is this: is there another way that satisfies both requirements? One possibility is the good old MRE. It certainly isn't everyone's first choice, but it keeps Soldiers fed and prevents the potential spread of microbes in the DFAC. Another possibility is to have hot chow brought out to the Soldiers on to-go plates. This would give Soldiers hot chow and still keep the DFAC clean. I think the broader issue is one of leadership. If I'm on a long patrol and chow is a priority for my Soldiers, then I'm going to reach out to the leadership at my destination to make that happen without storming the DFAC as though I own the place. Lots of talk in the comments here about common sense, but not as many mentioning planning, leadership, or creative thinking. With a little bit of each, you can arrive at an acceptable solution without jeopardizing the health of an entire FOB.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made Jul 22 at 2014 10:09 AM

SFC Stephen Carden — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:09:05 -0400

The heck with it. Let the guy close the chow hall, wait about an hour, then kick in the back door and make omelets!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 12:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:00:34 -0400

I ran into this exact issue several times on deployments. I have the chance to give my troops hot chow after mission I get them hot chow. No worries, no looking to see if other people are offended. If they are they most likely don't know what kind of morale booster getting good chow is for the Soldier.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Jul 22 at 2014 7:00 PM

SGT Frank Leonardo — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:00:24 -0400

Hey look you have to eat to keep going I remember getting off 24 hour CQ and going straight to the chow hall eating then going back to the barracks and going to bed. Would not have been able to fall a sleep if I did not eat

Response by SPC Gary Foltz made Jul 22 at 2014 7:13 PM

SPC Gary Foltz — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:13:28 -0400

I would shave from my helmet while I ate and when questions came up I would explain it. I would carry my razor and shave with butter. Thank you for your service.
Sincerely,
Destroyer

Response by SGT Micah Wilson made Jul 22 at 2014 7:26 PM

SGT Micah Wilson — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:26:52 -0400

As it applies to the serving period the dining facility manager can allow the soldiers to come in after the period is over due to their mission. The platoon leader/commander usually can give insight to the soldiers and allow them time to get food whether it is by having them take their food and go recover from the mission while still giving the dfac manager what they wanted as the soldiers would not have to be in their dining facility and still getting the soldiers their food.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 8:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 20:56:38 -0400

They would eat! Bottom line

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 10:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:30:35 -0400

My mission and my men. 2 basic responsibilities. Let them eat and take the butt chewing later. Make them shave immediately afterwards.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 10:36 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:36:26 -0400

I would let them go eat first, them have them shave

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 11:10 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 23:10:22 -0400

R we kidding here? I've seen a soldiers face after missions similar to those, and then seen the same face after a simple hot meal rather than an MRE. While in garrison standards r black and white. While deployed there a occasions where the right thing to do is break the rules. Not only should the soldiers be allowed to eat, the DFAC staff should bring them their food so they can take a break. That's my opinion. And it actually happened at Camp Bucca, summer 2007. I was there.

Response by SGT Larry Lee made Jul 23 at 2014 1:18 AM

SGT Larry Lee — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 01:18:45 -0400

My troops would eat, and God help the individual that stood in their way(I would insure that every one of my soldiers ate before I even thought about eating.

Response by SFC Cornelius Walsh made Jul 23 at 2014 7:46 AM

SFC Cornelius Walsh — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:46:17 -0400

I disagree that they're out of regulation, as they have not been afforded the opportunity to conduct personal hygiene yet. Upon accounting for pax/equip, getting food, and return to quarters, I'd make sure they conducted hygiene and got some well-deserved rest.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Jul 23 at 2014 8:04 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 20:04:34 -0400

The Standards should never preclude the idea of our two top priorities. Mission-first, Troops-always. Those who would put a standard before these principles should perhaps re-evaluate their ability to lead.

Response by CPT Ray Doeksen made Jul 23 at 2014 8:46 PM

CPT Ray Doeksen — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 20:46:19 -0400

Misleading subject: the standard is to accomplish the mission and take care of soldiers.

The standards that specify the length of their shoelaces is below the one that tells you to feed your folks.

There are priorities. It isn't a matter of picking and choosing, it's more a matter of prioritization. When you have time, when you have resources, some lower-priority items can be crossed off. Until then, beans and bullets.

And I never saw a tiny FOB mess that closed on the clock; they'd open and serve until everyone was fed or they were out of chow.

This is a tee-ball question, give me something tougher.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Spencer made Jul 23 at 2014 9:42 PM

SSG Jeffrey Spencer — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 21:42:26 -0400

Three things to know as a leader:
1. Do not mess with a soldier's pay.
2. Do not mess with a soldier's food.
3. Do not mess with a soldier's time off.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2014 10:00 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:00:56 -0400

I would feed them Soldiers, sometimes you have to use common sense!!!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2014 11:44 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 23:44:45 -0400

Let 'em eat. That kind of BS used to piss me off when we were working 16 to 18 hour days in Afghanistan. "Let soldiers eat in peace, Sergeant Major Anal-Retentive."

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Jul 24 at 2014 12:34 PM

CW2 Geoff Lachance — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:34:49 -0400

As a leader, given this situation - food first! I'd consider it part of the mission. Mission accomplishment includes welfare of the troops.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 2:28 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 14:28:11 -0400

We are speaking as if feeding soldiers is not the regulation. I am pretty sure if the soldiers would have staved, someone would end up homeless. Taking care of soldiers is at the heart of every regulation.

Response by 1SG John Paxton made Jul 24 at 2014 4:05 PM

1SG John Paxton — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:05:54 -0400

Though I cant imagine who would prevent a Soldier from eating, The senior person could have requested "To-Go" plates.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 6:00 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:00:43 -0400

I have learned that there is an "Exception to Policy" for anything. You just have to explain the situation to the DFAC manager. If he doesn't agree with you, then do like MSG Brad Sand said and eat anyways. I promise no one of authority would be willing to disagree with the decision to feed the Soldiers.

Response by SrA Jonathan Spitzer made Jul 24 at 2014 6:14 PM

SrA Jonathan Spitzer — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:14:49 -0400

Let the soldiers eat! If we force them to adhere to standards at the expense of their sustenance, it will have a much more severe impact on their ability to operate in the field resulting in the much higher chance that someone is going to be seriously injured or probably even killed because of it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 11:07 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 23:07:22 -0400

personally as a 13b we've faced situations where we couldn't leave the gunline and only had a few minutes to grab chow....it seems to me that most standards become slacked when in a combat environment which is not a bad thing in most cases

Response by SSG Michael S. made Jul 25 at 2014 2:55 PM

SSG Michael S. — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:55:34 -0400

Let them eat!!! I know what it's like to come off mission starving and not have time to clean up. Those who dictate rules and regs to the rest while sitting on their fat asses inside the wire ought to take a good hard look at these Warriors!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 4:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 16:10:57 -0400

Yes I would enforce the standard, BUT enforcing the standard doesn't mean not letting them eat. You can make an on the spot correction and let the soldier know that if it happens again then you will make him leave the DFAC or make him get a to go plate and leave.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 4:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 16:34:12 -0400

Everyone should have a personal hygiene kit with them as part of their 72 hr bag. How hard is it to shave? Leaders lead and enforce the standards, not try to find a way around them or make an excuse. After 5 deployments I've come to see that after every one the standard of living for the most part is better each year. Yes, there are exceptions to that. They are in a combat zone, on a deployment, if getting to the chow hall is the biggest issue then priorities need to get adjusted. MREs suck but they are available. Shave your face, fix your uniform and suck it up. It can always be worse.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 6:52 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 18:52:32 -0400

While I agree with most of the responses to this particular scenario, I also feel that a leader's responsibility for the welfare of his or her Soldiers inherently requires good planning and coordination whenever possible. If you know when the DFAC is closing, radio ahead and have them prepare to-go boxes or request that they remain open long enough to accommodate your unit. I did that routinely in Afghanistan as a PL when our patrol would start or end at the wrong time (or if we came back later than anticipated).

Of course the other great option was to plan in advance for a cookout in sector by getting money approved to buy a goat or sheep. That had the added benefit of creating a community event in the village where the locals, ANSF, and my Soldiers could break bread together.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 7:43 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 19:43:31 -0400

Feed them!!! Sweet Jesus there is a big difference between troops who have been busting there ass in an operational area and some slug.

Clear your weapon, wash your hands, eat your chow.

I am a Corpsman, I am well aware of the need for hygiene, but hell!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 8:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 20:32:07 -0400

Having spent our last deployment escorting convoys all over Iraq, we came across this very scenario countless times. Quickly and politely updating the DFAC NCOIC on our situation was normally the best approach, and we were either let in or allowed to get to go plates. I'm also pretty sure the NCOIC didn't want to be the one turning away soldiers who just came off mission, and the high holy hell I would have personally raised had my soldiers been denied chow.

But that's in theater, what about garrison? For the sake of further discussion, can anyone speak on an instance when they choose not to enforce a standard, or relax a standard for any particular situation?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 8:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 20:53:48 -0400

My CET rolled into Bucca and had a chilly reception due to our appearance from having been on mission for more than 24 hours, and still had a return trip back to Talil. I laughed when the chow NCO tried to deny us access, I didn't think they were serious. We explained the situation and were allowed in, being polite can go a long ways, but in the end my guys would get their food regardless of who tried to tell them no. Mission first.

The regs and standards have a place, but there is a huge difference between garrison and war. Soldiers can't perform their duties if they aren't fed or rested and no good NCO or officer would put this particular reg over the welfare of soldiers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2014 11:20 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 11:20:59 -0400

Being that I've been in that position many times, I'd let them in to eat. I've been told many times that I'm not allowed in a chow hall after going days of MREs and pounding the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a matter of taking care of Soldiers. Bottom line is making sure they get a hot meal means that it changes their mood and Outlook even if for just an hour or so. Plus in that situation they are probably trying to eat, take care of their gear then sleep not really paying attention to the next chow time because that long on mission whips you out. The Army needs to go back to taking care of Soldiers.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2014 1:25 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:25:05 -0400

Greetings, SSG Woods! I love your questions because they present real life scenarios. In response to this question (i.e., Is a standard black and white?), as a JAG Officer I can tell you that I am unfamiliar with a "black and white world." In my world, there is no such thing. I live in a world of grey where there is a waiver for everything. I just need to find the right person to sign the document(s). Rock on!

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jul 26 at 2014 9:25 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 21:25:54 -0400

SSG V. Michelle Woods I would say this: God help the personnel at the chow hall who denied my troops a meal under those circumstances. It would be a bad and ugly day for the entire area.

Now, turn it a little, and let me find out that my people were a bunch of hogs that had plenty of time and opportunity to clean up ahead of time and went in just to be a pain in the ass....different story.

When deployed, we should all recognize that some folks worked very difficult missions/jobs and some do not. Some miss many meals, some do not. We need to as leaders do everything possible to ensure that as few meals as possible are missed-whatever it takes.

End of rant.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2014 11:02 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 23:02:48 -0400

Use the risk management process

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2014 12:18 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 00:18:48 -0400

Someone please show me the regulation that says soldiers can't eat chow unless they do certain things (ie. shave, have a clean uniform, etc.). Second, I would ask a question. Is the chow hall and the Soldiers that man it there to serve themselves or to serve the Soldiers who are fighting? Bottom line- those Soldiers will eat. I actually ran into this several times when I was a BN XO in Iraq. The Mess SGT was destroyed on more than one occasion for this petty BS. It isn't the Soldiers fault their mission, the units mission, doesn't conform to the DFAC hours. And, BTW, an MRE or anything other than regular chow is a weak answer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2014 12:21 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 00:21:25 -0400

I would also contend that a dirty unshaven Soldier in this scenario needs to eat more than one who is in a clean uniform and freshly shaven.

Response by SGT Ryan Gilbey made Jul 27 at 2014 10:08 AM

SGT Ryan Gilbey — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 10:08:48 -0400

This happened to troops in my unit as well in Iraq. We had 24 hours Ops and some nights were busier than others. They were told to clean up. He was also forced to carry a razor. Let them eat. The group will display the situation. . Be professional and ask the rank why...

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 27 at 2014 11:16 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 11:16:52 -0400

To answer solely the title question, yes, a Reg is black and white, but only if it is comprehensive and well written. Having said that, very few regulations meet that criteria.

Response by Cpl Joshua Vrooman made Jul 27 at 2014 11:58 AM

Cpl Joshua Vrooman — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 11:58:54 -0400

The one thing that always rubbed me raw in the Corps was the "Mission Accomplishment then Troop Welfare" mentality. Missions don't get accomplished properly by tired, hungry or broken troops.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2014 2:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:19:29 -0400

Have run into this situation many of times. Turns out my men and I, we are eating. The foreigners checking IDs can shove it.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Jul 27 at 2014 2:46 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:11 -0400

Well here's the way we did it in the old days.
32 Hours of mission, 12 minutes for the Mess hall to close, my troops will eat first.
When they get back will start with the equipment, personal hygiene will be taken care of at COB 1700 Hrs.
Next morning is another day.

Note: As an NCO your subs are looking at you to lead, they look at you to make sound decisions and common sense. While their may be many rules and regulations, your subs are not rules nor regulations they are human beings and they need to know they exist. Taking care of there health and welfare also means to make sure they at least eat or have that chance given to them. Unless you have a deep desire to have your subs recent something about you deep inside, I recommend to use common sense unless your want take up mind reading as an MOS.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2014 4:15 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:15:35 -0400

If those soldiers just went through a 32 hour mission they deserve to get a good meal. Yes, we all know the standards are there for a reason but there's also common sense and doing the right thing. Sometimes the two don't mean the same thing.

Response by PO2 Edward Shelton made Jul 27 at 2014 11:29 PM

PO2 Edward Shelton — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 23:29:03 -0400

Sounds like that regulation needs to updated for war time scenarios.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Oct 18 at 2014 3:37 PM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 15:37:39 -0400

Well that question is inherently racist.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2014 4:01 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 16:01:29 -0400

In that scenario and I'm NCOIC of the chow hall, they eat. The hell with regulations and if someone must be reprimanded where do I sign. Yes standards are pretty much black and white but their also must be common sense.

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 18 at 2014 4:06 PM

SSG Maurice P. — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 16:06:43 -0400

IN COUNTRY 32 HOUR MISSION 12 MINUTES BEFORE CHOW HALL CLOSES THEY EAT AND EAT AS MUCH AS THEY WANT.............

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 2:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 14:41:17 -0400

Its very simple, when you are out conducting mission for an extended period of time and putting you life on the line there are certain things you deserve. One of them is eating real food and the other thing is a hot shower. Anybody who just walks around telling people what they are doing wrong has zero right to even talk to those individuals. Deployments are not easy for anybody but there is a difference, some people have easy one's and others have really really hard one's. Someone with a easy deployment has no right to turn any Soldier away. I have been in that situation before and have had a great SFC who told the individual who was turning all of us away to go and pound sand. I've been there and it sucks so no there is no way anyone should ever turn away a Soldier for a hot meal.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2015 4:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:34:08 -0500

Apply a little common sense. Get the soldiers fed, then make personal hygiene the next priority after, then work out what is next..

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 12:08 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:08:04 -0500

SSG V. Michelle Woods I don't see why there would be a problem, as long as they have this on.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 30 at 2015 5:10 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:10:22 -0400

What is most important is food in their tummies. Sometimes standards create situations that has wrong and right answers.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Apr 17 at 2016 10:46 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 22:46:51 -0400

I would let them eat.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Apr 17 at 2016 10:55 PM

SGM Joel Cook — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 22:55:27 -0400

This kind of thing happened a couple of times to me in Iraq when we had to do long convoys and arrived with 20 minutes before the DFAC closed, not needing a shave but covered in road dirt from head to toe. They tried to turn us away for being dirty, I just asked who was in charge of the facility? If my boss outranked him it was an easy fix to have my boss ask nicely to let us in. If not my boss would call his boss and have him order the guy to feed us even if they had to stay open late. It never happened more than once at the same location. It had a lot to do with the services provided by my team. Everyone needed our help and there weren't enough of us to go around so once they found out who we were we got fed.

Response by CMSgt Rich Bates made Jan 8 at 2019 9:38 AM

CMSgt Rich Bates — Tue, 08 Jan 2019 09:38:18 -0500

As an E9 overseeing dfacs standards and regulations need to be followed but there are exceptions. Any unit or person coming into a dfac straight from the field must be accommodated and allowed to eat. There is no justification in denying entry to a unit coming in from the field that doesn’t have the time or capabilities to shower shave and put on a clean uniform. As an NCO/supervisor you have to assess each situation you encounter and apply common sense in enforcing regulations. A simple greeting to the troops and direct them to an area where they can all be together while eating would have been the better response then to deny entry. However if a troop came in that had been on base for a significant time and had the capabilities of showering and putting on a proper clean uniform should be held to the regulation standard. I saw more issues with troops stationed at the base violating dfac standards than troops coming directly from the field. Think before you act. Also in the case of troops just coming in from the field, the dfac must make very effort to feed a hot meal to the troops even if it requires them to stay open longer. The dfac mission is to ensure all our troops gear a hot meal whenever possible. When not possible then an alternate meal must be offered such as box lunches or MREs.

Response by SSgt Mathew Cummings made Apr 12 at 2022 9:26 PM

SSgt Mathew Cummings — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:26:04 -0400

Weapon, gear, body. I would circle my unit up, sometimes the whole company, and drop blouse and uncover for chow and recovery. They would be cleaned up for the next day. That was the end of mission recovery for us.