Is a turd still a turd, or can you polish it?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 22:49:49 -0500

Lets face it-every unit has one. Soldier or SN is constantly screwing up, has a paper trail the size of Mt Everest in counseling statements, fails the PT test, won t wear the uniform properly, is disrespectful, and by all accounts a dirt bucket. <div><br></div><div>Do you continue to try and improve the person or get rid of them? I d like a perspective. </div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:51 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 22:51:37 -0500

Sometimes its the leader of that turd. Put that turd in a new toilet and it might shine.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 21 at 2014 10:57 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 22:57:03 -0500

This is a tough question to answer because while you're right that every unit has "that" member, every situation is different. The problem could be at home. The problem could be no motivation. The problem could even be boredom and not being challenged the right way. If the problem is actually at home with his family, etc. - then I hope we would agree that the CoC needs to help him get those issues resolved in a healthy manner, versus just chaptering the guy. So, it's hard for me to say a general response for every situation.  I do like this thread, though - thanks for starting it!

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 11:00 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 23:00:10 -0500

I'm still in my first unit, and I've seen these guys. I had to work super hard all the way through BCT and AIT to maintain the PT standard and if I don't stay on it in garrison in my own time I won't succeed, just how it is. I've seen guys who exactly what you were talking about SPC Walden. Smoke a pack a day, fall out of runs.<div><br></div><div>I went form falling out of brigade runs to carrying the guide-on and now I have it permanently. It boggles my mind, I love the ARMY and I wish I could entertain these guys view point but they just won't know, until they're out how easy it could be.. if they just gave some effort.</div><div><br></div><div>You can't blame leadership all the time, sometimes you just can't un eff some folks.</div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 11:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 23:04:03 -0500

I think any turd can be polished if you can figure out why he became a turd.  Whether it that persons upbringing, current situation, or just overall attitude issue, I think all things can be resolved.  I think too often we right off the "turds" because it requires extra effort to get a quality end result.  It is easier to let them continue sailing down the path of being a turd.  Quality leaders will dig and scrounge to figure out what the underlying issue may be and take appropriate action to polish him up.  They may not shine like a star, but they will be better off than before.<br>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 2:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 02:40:13 -0500

Here are my random thoughts on this important topic.

I agree that you have to look deeper than skin deep to find the problem. I also think that most dirtbags can be motivated to become contributing members of a team.

You also have to keep the other Soldiers in your charge in mind. The extra time that you spend "polishing that turd" could be spent honing that superstar into the excellent leader of tomorrow. Don't forget the guys that are to standard.

Many Soldiers just want to see that you care about them and the Army. I have seen many Soldiers do a complete turn around just because they got a leader that did not give up on him/her.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 2:41 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 02:41:25 -0500

I've often found that I really love these "leadership challenges" I usually ask for them by name. Most of the time, I've been able to get my hooks into them and turn them around. So far, I've only had two I couldn't make shine. More often than not, they did not have a leader with as much patience as I have. This does not mean that the leaders were bad. My personality is very warm and for some reason everyone seems to trust me. I also tend to be a magnet for these types. Often times, they need a little encouragement and positive reinforcement. My mentorship also does not end when either party PCSs.

Now if you're talking about those other two that did not turn around, I'm stumped. Maybe I just wasn't the right person to guide them. It is possible that they just didn't care. Whereas, I feel that most are re-trainable and able to be rehabilitated, some may just be lacking the mental faculties to hack it in the military. These need to be gotten rid of.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 2:49 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 02:49:19 -0500

Ive never had a Marine who had all of those but I do believe the ones with lesser abilities can be polished but there are the very few who really don't care for improvement and will not improve.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2014 4:21 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 04:21:49 -0500

I have been brought up to believe a unit is only as strong as its weakest length. As senior NCOs it is our duty to bring the individual up to the unit standards. The NCOs will have to invest more time with the individual, but it is well worth it to see them achieve, and fulfill their commitment to their unit and country. One of my favorite quotes if you have a problem I will help you out. If you are a problem I will help you out!

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 23 at 2014 8:12 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 20:12:00 -0500

In many cases, good leaders can make the difference. With that being said, there are some people that join that are not comparable with the military. I feel that there are some that need to be released.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2014 12:16 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 00:16:19 -0500

I dont know what is being taught in BCT now days, but I am getting Joes that seem to have no respect. When I first got to my Unit in 2005, I was nervous to even talk to the E-4's. Now its like everyone wants to be buddy buddy. First off i dont believe in starting with a paper trail. I smoke the crap out of and yell constantly at these Joes and I also explain why I do it and show them in ways that I care about their well-being. I have done this with a couple of "turds" and they have turned into great soldiers. Answering everything with a counseling is a no-go in my mind. If a couseling is always wrote on someone I believe that will just demotivate that individual and they will continue their ways. Keep it old school and put the fear of God in these Joes.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 24 at 2014 5:49 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 05:49:55 -0500

The Mythbusters already did all the work for us.

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/polishing-a-turd-minimyth.htm

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2014 4:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:48:17 -0500

Just did some research, and found that AR 601-280 Chapter 8, Section 4 lists criteria for what one would label a "turd".

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r601_280.pdf

Again, many thanks to SSG Goicoechea for the insight and definitely was some interesting reading.

SSG White, SSG Broadbent-nail on the head of trying to reverse 17-18 years of bad examples, parenting, or environment.

My example-student 1SG in basic. Had a female from Lousiana who thought she was sh!t hot because she grew up on the streets. Decided to pick a fight with me one day because I was "uppity". All I did was state that I follow orders of the non commissioned officers appointed over me, and apparently that makes me a suck up and a sell out to my battle buddies. (Never mind she was a troublemaker from the start). While I tried to explain the fastest way to get out was completing basic training and AIT, she said that I knew nothing about the military (wrong again, prior service Marines), and insert white trash racial insult slurs here...

I never knew why I didn't clean her clock right then and there, but realized that her issues were probably ones stemming from home. I will never know where or how she grew up, I just knew it was an example not to follow.

Ok getting off my soapbox.

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Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 12:02 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 00:02:13 -0400

Every unit has squared away folks, that all you have to do is tell them what the objective is, and they accomplish the mission with little or no supervision. Then you have a larger group that needs more supervision, but will get the job done. Then you have the screw-ups that call for more of a hands on approach. This is where NCOs earn their money. This is why they are NCOs in the first place, to handle the difficult tasks. You might not get the screw-up to shine bright, but you certainly should be able to smooth out the rough edges.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 6 at 2015 12:25 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 00:25:39 -0400

Make absolutely no mistake SGT Private RallyPoint Member, you have no chance in hell of making it to the senior ranks UNTIL you learn to put a high glossy shine on your turds....lol?