Is America's culture of inclusiveness threatening the Marine Corps' warrior ethos?

2015-07-30T06:42:41-04:00

Born inauspiciously in a Philadelphia tavern in 1775, the Marine Corps has grown into the country's preeminent 911 force, proving itself in battles from Tripoli to the streets of Fallujah, Iraq.

Along the way the Marines built a legend based on grit and raw courage. It's what propelled them across the beaches of Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal and through Hue City's deadly streets in Vietnam.

Is it now facing a new challenge as America's culture of inclusiveness seeps into the service and threatens to dilute the warrior ethos that has set it apart from the other services for more than 200 years?

Read more at ...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/28/quest-inclusiveness-undermining-corps-germano/30463249/

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Jul 30 at 2015 6:46 AM

2015-07-30T06:46:40-04:00

Getting women into combat jobs may take 2 years ...

After restrictions on women in combat are lifted in January, military officials estimate it will take up to two years before women actually will be "recruited, accessed, trained, tested and assigned" to some of the roughly 245,000 jobs now legally closed to them, according to a new Government Accountability Office (GAO) report.

The GAO said the Pentagon should develop long-term plans to oversee the integration of women in combat after the official policy change in 2016.

The GAO study of the Defense Department's plans for opening all combat jobs to women comes as the deadline looms for the military's top brass to decide whether to eliminate all gender restrictions or offer a good reason not to do that by requesting a formal waiver to the forcewide policy.

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/07/29/women-combat-gao/30833623/

GAO: Getting women into combat jobs may take 2 years

After restrictions on women in combat are lifted in January, military officials' estimate it will take up to two years before females will be

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 7:03 AM

2015-07-30T07:03:42-04:00

Most absolutely! lol

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 30 at 2015 7:15 AM

2015-07-30T07:15:25-04:00

Two different issues here.

The Marines ARE inclusive. We have always been inclusive. We may not seem like it at first glance, but there is nothing we respect more than "Proficiency," and nothing we loathe more than lack of proficiency. Do your job, do it well, and you will be welcome with us. Fail to perform, or make excuses about performances, and you won't.

We don't care if you are brown, green, black, white, gay, straight, Christian, Jewish, etc. We just don't care. You're a Marine first, and caveats mean nothing to us. When women were introduced into the Marines, we didn't come up with names like WAVES, etc. "We just have Marines" was the official statement. When DADT was repealed, our recruiters went out in full force, because that expanded the recruiting pool. All we care about is finding qualified applicants, and turning them into proficient Marines.

The issue, as LtCol Germano presented is the second issue. It's that we are creating a second standard (inadvertently). This is not about the normalized PT Test. We know why that exists, and the scores on it align cross gender. But we are constantly evolving the standard as well. It's that we "expect less" from one demographic than another.

"If" true, that is just wrong, and we need to correct that mentality at the root.

LtCol Germano brought up that female recruits underperformed compared to males in many/most categories percentage wise. Without knowing the "acceptable pass rate" it's hard to say whether we expect less though. As an example, if males have a typical pass rate of 80~% and women of 75%, but the standard is 70%, there is no "foul." But if there is a different standard for males and females, there is one. This is not to say we shouldn't work to bring the two demographics together, however there may just be factors we don't understand as yet. Things like "scale" can wildly affect numbers especially when the total service is only 7% women (compared to 15% military wide).

So this is not about inclusiveness, though a first glance could lead to that impression. In other words, correlation does not equal causation.

Response by SGT William Howell made Jul 30 at 2015 7:31 AM

2015-07-30T07:31:00-04:00

Yes and please make it stop before we are all speaking Chinese!

Response by SGT William Howell made Jul 30 at 2015 7:31 AM

2015-07-30T07:31:31-04:00

When I think of Marines I think of the force that is still paid to make people and places go away.

When I think of the Army, my Army, we are the guys that you call when we need to give out free hugs and when your unicorn is broken, we will come out and deliver a new one to your door.

I don't mean the Army is not a killing machine, but we have a lot of bags that we have to pack to get where we are going. We now have things on our plate that are not about killing. The Marines don't have the same bags like Psy Ops, Civil Affairs, and builders of things we broke, like the Army does. Their focus is much more pin point.

The Army has lost some of its battle edge because we have picked up many more non-combat missions. I hope the Marines don't do the same. Somebody still has to be the trigger pullers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 8:11 AM

2015-07-30T08:11:32-04:00

It is not just in the Marines. The Army has lost all of its luster over the last decade. It is the generation of whiners and everyone thinking they are owed something and why do you have to yell at me. Hopefully, both of our branches can get the right leadership to put us back where we belong.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 8:11 AM

2015-07-30T08:11:42-04:00

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 30 at 2015 8:11 AM

2015-07-30T08:11:55-04:00

It's another piece of proof that political correctness is invading the military

Response by Sgt Nick Marshall made Jul 30 at 2015 10:08 AM

2015-07-30T10:08:29-04:00

It is a tricky question. A female must be held to the same standards as men, that should be a given, but if additional logistics are required to accommodate women then I have doubts. Maybe an alternative is to have exclusive female infantry units.

Response by Capt Lance Gallardo made Jul 31 at 2015 1:11 PM

2015-07-31T13:11:44-04:00

I am more worried about how the US Army is failing to instill the same Pride and Esprit de Corps in its Basic training Graduates that they are unique and special in earning the title of US Soldier, in a way that should be similar to the Pride that every Marine Boot Camp Grad experiences with their graduation from Boot camp, the Crucible, and Earning the Title of Marine:
One of the saddest things I ever heard came from a Soldier in 2008 that I represented in his Military Justice Case (he went UA after failing to graduate from SFAS Course-SF Schools at Fort Bragg , N.C., His morale went to hell after he failed to complete the initial SF assessment course) who told me that graduating from Basic Training in the Army did not make him feel special to earn the title of Soldier! I do not understand as a Former Marine Officer how the US Army does not instill a similar mystique (that the Marine Corps does with the Crucible and Boot camp graduation and earning the Title of Marine) to earning the Title of Soldier and Warrior in the US Army after toughing it out through Basic training. My step-father's Army Soldier stories of Basic Training and his 20 mile humps were part of the reasons I chose to volunteer for the Marine Corps as an 18 year old kid (I took the Oath of Office at 18 my PEBD was in Jan 1983), and I shipped off to Marine OCS (PLC Juniors) as an 18 year old kid and a college freshman in June of 1983. My step-father, a Vietnam Era Draftee, told me about the guys in his BCT Vietnam Era Class who would cry and quit on these humps, and he would tell me you don't want to be one of these wussies. Of his BCT class EVERYONE went to Vietnam except for my step-father and two other college grads who were held back for OCS. Without thinking too hard, I can think of half a dozen battles and engagements in US History where individual soldiers of the US Army and their Unit Cohesion brought unbelievable credit upon their Service and country and themselves with their courage and initiative and their tactical excellence- The Army was with the Marines in the Chosin Reservoir Korean War Battle, where they smashed ten Chinese Divisions encircling them to make it to the coast and extraction, I can never get enough of the stories of "Those Damn Engineers" who held off the Waffen SS during the Battle of the Bulge (“The Damned Engineers” is the history of the 291st Engineer Combat Battalion during the Battle of the Bulge. This humble unit and their leaders were the biggest thorn in the side of the vaunted Kampfgrouppe Peiper. If it was not for the actions of this unit and how they fought with the weapons they had, used their skills, and acted decisively, General Peiper’s offense would have been much more successful. This is a history of American heroes in action at a critical time and a short history of heroic deems so often unsung. ) In the seminal book on the Battle of the Bulge (Snow and Steel-the Battle of the Bulge 1944-45 By Peter Caddick-Adams) the Introduction of the book starts of by telling the story of the Battle for the Hotton Bridge, on December 21st, 1944, by an initial scratch force of approximately a squad and a half of US Army Engineers, from the 51st Engineer Combat battalion, and a squad of armored engineers from the 3rd Armored Division armed with a 37 MM Anti Tank Gun,,from the , a stray tank from the 7th Armored Division, 2 40mm Bofors Anti Aircraft Guns manned by men from the 440th AAA Battalion. None of these men or units had fought together before, but under the leadership of Captain Preston C. Hodges, the Engineer Co. B Company Commander (who had been the CO of B 51st Engineers for two years), these men and their Leader, Captain Hodges, understood the value of their Bridge and were determined to hold the Hotton Bridge, "at all hazards." They successfully held the bridge until relieved in one of the most heroic and little known actions of all of WWII against the best tanks and troops the Nazis could throw at them during the Battle for the Bulge. Capt Hodges and the men whom he lead, acted without orders for the most part, and exercised the highest degree of initiative and courage in the face of overwhelming enemy forces. The fact that the US Army could produce soldiers, some of whom only had basic training combat training-the cooks and clerks who fought there in Hotton, Belgium) who could act together with excellent small unit leadership is a testament to Army training during WWII and the Esprit de Corps of the men of these disparate Army units. The Battling Bastards of Bastogne, the cooks and bakers and the 101st Airborne, whose Acting Commanding General (McAuliffe), when asked to surrender their encircled division told off the Nazis with the most famous one word reply in History, "Nuts!" The Heroism of the US Army in its fighting retreat in the Philippines while facing overwhelming forces of the Japanese Army, and the later Heroic March of the Bataan Death March, The Final Actions of my Mother's father and Earl O Brake (DFC posthumously), who died where they fought, in their company's strong point, armed with BARS and grenades, repelling a Dawn Japanese Banzai Attack on March 14th, 1945 -they died so others might live in their infantry company. (http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=6498), the Incredible Story of US Army Courage "We Were Soldiers Once… And Young" is a 1992 book by Lt. Gen. Harold G. Moore (Ret.) and war journalist Joseph L. Galloway about the Vietnam War. It focuses on the role of the First and Second Battalions of the 7th Cavalry Regiment in the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley, the United States' first large-unit battle of the Vietnam War; previous engagements involved small units and patrols (squad, platoon, and company sized units). Later made into a movie of the same name by Mel Gibson. A more recent US Army Heroic Example is the 15 months an Army infantry Company spent in the Korengal Valley in often daily contact with the enemy, as immortalized in the film Restrepo, Second Platoon, B Company, 2nd Battalion, 503rd Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team of the U.S. Army in the Korangal Valley. A 173rd Soldier S/Sgt Giunta received the Medal of Honor for his Actions while fighting in the Korengal Valley. "That 15 months in the Korengal Valley, it was hell on Earth," Sgt. Perry remembered." (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-staff-sgt-giunta-earned-the-medal-of-honor/). Forty-two American service men died fighting in the Korangal and hundreds were wounded, primarily between 2006 and 2009. Many Afghan soldiers died there as well. The valley has been dubbed "The Valley of Death" by American forces.[4] I remember watching on live TV Staff Sgt. Giunta receiving his Medal of Honor at the White House Ceremony in Nov 2010. I can't believe it has been five years since then. I also remember reading somewhere that the 15 month tour of duty and the documented engagements, days in contact with the enemy, hostile fire received and returned, was not seen by the US Army anytime since the Vietnam War. That almost daily hostile contact with the enemy, and the incredibly, impossible terrain in the Korengal Valley in which to take clear, and hold terrain, or to combat patrol or operate effectively in the Area of Operations, made the Korengal Valley one of the US Army's most Heroic engagements. The Heroism exhibited by Battle Company, 2/503, 173rd Airborne Brigade is also one of the best documented Battle Histories with the film Restrepo, a 60 minutes Documentary , numerous Books and Newspaper Articles, and thousands of photos and film clips of combat. I could also recall the valor of the US Army in WWI with the Lost Battalion and Lt.Col. Whittlesey heroic (and successful) defense of his Battalion when cut off and surrounded by Enemy forces, who repeatedly rejected calls by the enemy to surrender, and how his men repelled the enemy's repeated attacks on his position, until they were finally located by aerial observation and were reinforced and extracted. Of the over 500 soldiers who entered the Argonne Forest, only 194 walked out unscathed. The rest were killed, missing, captured, or wounded. Major Charles White Whittlesey, Captain George G. McMurtry, and Captain Nelson M. Holderman received the Medal of Honor for their valiant actions. The Lost Battalion is the name given to nine companies of the United States 77th Division, roughly 554 men, isolated by German forces during World War I after an American attack in the Argonne Forest in October 1918. It was also made into one of the best war movies I have ever seen, "The Lost Battalion" starring Rick Schroeder. I would have been so proud to graduate from Army Basic training and wear the Uniform that my grandfather and step-father wore during two of this nation's most significant Wars and the same Uniform that was worn by the men whose bravery I have just described above. There is no title prouder than that of "Soldier and Warrior, US Army, United States of America." If the Army is not instilling this basic fact and Enormous Pride into every graduate of US Army Basic Training, the Army is doing something fundamentally wrong with the way it makes and mints a US Soldier!

Valor awards for Earl O. Brake

(Citation Needed) - SYNOPSIS: Private First Class Earl O. Brake (ASN: 34807192), United States Army, was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross (Posthumously) for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy while serving with Company F, 103d Infantry Regiment, 43d Infantry Division, in action against enemy forces on 14 March 1945. Private First Class Brake's intrepid actions, personal bravery and...

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Sep 12 at 2015 6:55 AM

2015-09-12T06:55:02-04:00

"The Marines, particularly the infantry, are proud of their no-frills culture. The Army can have fancy dining facilities. The Marines pride themselves on chowing on field rations and sleeping in the mud. Being called a knuckle dragger is a compliment in the Marine Corps.

The other services may be defined by their equipment and their mission. What sets the Marines apart is something harder to quantify: esprit de corps, a warrior spirit drilled into every recruit before he or she graduates from boot camp.

As an institution the Marines have clung to their values for centuries even as the society they are here to protect changed around them."

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Sep 12 at 2015 8:32 AM

2015-09-12T08:32:55-04:00

As long as the Marines think they are better, it works for the Marines Corps.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Sep 13 at 2015 8:02 PM

2015-09-13T20:02:15-04:00

OK, disclosure, I'm old school, 1978 to 2002, I'm also an officer, and probably most important, I'm the son of a WW2 veteran and bonified hero (yeah, I'm proud of my dad), and I am very proud of my army and my service. Of the top 20 greatest days of my life I include getting a commission as a Lt in the US Army, getting a command of a company as a captain, and getting "arrested" at Disneyland for shooting peas at the ducks from the river boat (I was probably 10 years old). The others include getting married and having children. But the point is I never felt, nor do I now feel, that the Army is less than any other service. I would put my rifle platoon (82nd Abn Div) up against any rifle platoon in the USMC and we'll see who's better. Of course they are all old men now, so it is not possible. I would put my UH-1 (III Corps Frd, USAEUR) air assault company up against any other assault company. I would put my AH-64 attack battalion (1/211) up against any other attack battalion in the world. Anytime, anyplace, and I am sure we would win in an impartial evaluation. (Reality is not what is important here, attitude, pride, proficiency, and some others are what is important here.)

Perhaps some of the current or recent army service members are victims of psyop, you have bought into the message of the DOD service recruiting commercial. The Few, the Proud, the Marines! The Marines have always had a better advertising campaign. An Army of One! What? What does that mean anyway? But I don't let the advertising firms tell me what to think about the army. Service members currently serving in the army need to look within, and look at your men and unit and have some pride and if things aren't right fix it. I had an air assault company in which not one pilot and not one door gunner had ever fired door gunnery. That ain't right! But I didn't wonder if the USAF was better at door gunnery, I informed my commander, I planned training, we excited training and we fixed it.

You make your unit the best unit in DOD. From commander down to PVT, you pull together and you become the best, and you don't hang your head down for any jarhead. (Sorry Marine friends, its just a fiery speech.)

Response by Cpl Dr Ronnie Manns made Oct 16 at 2015 8:43 AM

2015-10-16T08:43:10-04:00

To me, to be a real warrior it all begins from within, some people have it and some don't. Some people can culture and grow it while others cannot. I think it takes a higher degree of patriotism than we have ever dreamed to be willing to lay down your life for your country and fellow citizen regardless of their color, creed, way of life, or religion and those who achieve that level should consider themselves true warriors while those who pretend can't compare. Inclusion does not dilute the warrior, it only enhances it and clearly shows its glory.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2015 7:56 AM

2015-10-19T07:56:33-04:00

It is political correctness that threaten all ...

A good person killed by a bad guy because he is trying to do a good deed, so is it the good deed cause the good guy's death? many will fall for it and blame the good deed, but the fact is, the bad guy kill him. not the good deeds. It is the intention of the bad guy that cause the good guy's death.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 23 at 2015 6:40 AM

2015-10-23T06:40:21-04:00

No. The Marines are a warrior culture, not a race/gender/religion/politics/sexual orientation club.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 24 at 2015 6:34 AM

2015-10-24T06:34:10-04:00

I would not call the Marines the preeminent 911 force. In fact it is quite insulting to state such an exalted status at the expense of the branches. All the branches have their roles. You can make sort of a comparison with the Army, however, how do you compare with the Marines with the Navy, and Air Force?

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 6:32 PM

2015-10-29T18:32:24-04:00

The Corps has already proven that women aren't worth a tin shit in combat. Hopefully Congress will listen.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Oct 30 at 2015 5:40 AM

2015-10-30T05:40:36-04:00

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 30 at 2015 6:53 AM

2015-10-30T06:53:41-04:00

Actually, GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad, I think that the "Warrior ethos" (or "warrior spirit") culture poses a subtler, and therefore more dangerous, threat to the Marine ethos and esprit de corps by diminishing the value of standards which help hold the Corps together when there is no war to fight.

And, just to be more contrarian on a Friday morning, I'll admit that I disagree with the article's oft-repeated comment that Marines coming out of boot camp today are tougher and smarter than previous generations. They may be better conditioned and potentially better informed, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that they aren't really significantly smarter than the generations who came before. (I'm sorry, that popular bit of self-congratulation always chafes, even when I'm too polite to take the utterer to task for it.)

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Oct 30 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-10-30T12:16:19-04:00

Off topic, but I actually had this poster in my room when I was younger. Please don't mind the picture.

Response by CPT Russell Pitre made Dec 5 at 2015 1:43 PM

2015-12-05T13:43:43-05:00

Yup. The Marines now have to change their culture due to an outside influence.

Check this out.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-do-you-think-is-going-on-in-this-picture

What do you think is going on in this picture? | RallyPoint

I just saw this picture this morning. I wasn't sure what was happening until I had to look at it for a second. Then I realized what was going on. I am not sure what the situation was. I know the Marines did their Male VS Co-Ed Teams recently. This may be from that. As you can see the males in the formation are caring the rucks for the females. To me it is insulting to have given up my ruck and have some carry my weight. I am not implying...

Response by PO3 Brad Phlipot made Dec 6 at 2015 8:30 AM

2015-12-06T08:30:38-05:00

A buddy of mine retired out last year as a Gunny, 20yrs. His feeling is the Corps is going to hell as far as the people and their value system today. That is all I have heard about the Corps.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2016 3:47 PM

2016-09-18T15:47:29-04:00

Is "culture of inclusiveness" intended to be read as a dog whistle language translated roughly into "affirming LGBTQ etc"?? I do agree though that whereas navy and air force are largely defined by their vehicles used to place steel on the targets the corps remains defined by the type of man (or yes, woman) they create thru their enculturation/assimilation process. If there has been any diminution or dilution of the expected standards, please do share. And when you cite them let us know why and by whose directive/order?