Is anyone being healed by executing policemen?

Cpl Brett Wagner — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 22:48:52 -0500

Recently someone asked the question "How do we heal after Ferguson?" No one ever mentioned the the FOUR NYC policemen attacked by a madman with a hatchet, now two NY policemen have been shot execution style. No one ever mentioned the good policemen do everyday. Have our elected officials made the situation better or worse?

http://www.abc6.com/story/27678979/two-nyc-cops-killed-in-ambush-shooting

Two NYC cops killed in ambush shooting

By News Staffnews@abc6.comOfficials say a second New York City officer has died after a gunman ambushed them inside their patrol car before committing suicide. The shooting took place Saturday af...

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 20 at 2014 11:28 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 23:28:37 -0500

My Uncle was one of NY's finest. No bueno!

Response by COL Ted Mc made Dec 21 at 2014 1:00 PM

COL Ted Mc — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:00:04 -0500

Let's put it in perspective. There are (around) 35 US cities where your chance of being murdered (on a local per capita basis) is higher than your chance of being killed as a policeman (on a national per capita basis). Possibly I didn't put that clearly enough.

As an illustrative example if you live in East Podunk and the murder rate is 15 :: 100,000 while the ratio of policemen being killed is 9 :: 100,000 you are more likely to be murdered simply by living in East Podunk than you are because you are a policeman.

The Chicago (?) police chief who told the crowd that he was sick and tired of hearing complaints about "Police violence" coming from the people who were totally silent about the fact that 80% of the murders in the city were "Black on Black" and that 80% of the violent crimes in the city were "Black on Black" as if it were OK for "Blacks" to be beaten and/or killed just as long as it was another "Black" doing the beating and/or killing - was right on the mark.

On the other hand, the Police Union who voted 95+% "No Confidence" in their Police Chief after he refused to accept "Self Defence" as an excuse when one of his officers shot someone 14 times [not fired 14 times, but actually hit the victim 14 times {which probably involved at least two magazine changes}] (the Police Chief's position was that 14 went well beyond "self defence") and fired the officer - is totally out to lunch.

I can understand that the police, sometimes, feel that they are under siege but encouraging that mentality by automatically justifying every police shooting as "necessary" simply doesn't help a situation where the mood is becoming more and more "If I disagree with you then I'll shoot you and that will shut you up.".

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 21 at 2014 1:23 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:23:27 -0500

...And of course, the 2 cops killed weren't even "white." One was Latino and the other Asian.....

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 21 at 2014 1:50 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:50:09 -0500

Freedom of the press and freedom of speech is being abused. Sensationalization of the news makes money. Cops are portrayed as evil, and some civilians are victims. If the situation dowsn't fulfill the headline media-hype criteria it is dismissed. Let the 9,999 selfless acts fall to the wayside and take the one act in question determine a race, or organization, or a cause. Headline grabbers and "advocates" come out of the woodworks to line their pockets. Whatever happened to reporting the news instead of creating the news?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 7:57 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:57:37 -0500

Capt Bill Brett PO2 Ed C. Sad that change never happens except marches and flash mobs. Worst of all are the innocents who live in those places. SFC Mark Merino

Response by PO1 John Y. made Dec 22 at 2014 12:39 PM

PO1 John Y. — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:39:49 -0500

The answer is of course not... Vengeance belongs to the Lord. And that nor anything else can bring back the lost. We just have more lost. Police deaths are up 23% from last year. Black cops shoot white criminals, Asian cops shoot Hispanic criminals, etc. Bottom line police shoot criminals and sometimes, rarely, but sometimes a non-criminal is killed or injured by mistake (i.e. kid with toy gun with orange tip removed). Police, like service members, have to make split-second decisions all the time when faced with a crisis. Though they are better trained than any civilian, they are human. They are fallible. Is it possible there are racist cops? Sure, but I believe that to be rare. If we look at the areas where criminals are being shot and the demographics of the area, it becomes a matter of averages. No, I'm not saying most criminals are minorities. We just don't hear about the white cop-white criminal, black cop-black criminal, or any other combination, for that matter. For instance, in Phoenix we have a large Hispanic population. Much of that population, at some point in their family, come from Mexico. When a police officer pulls someone over for a traffic violation and they are Hispanic, they automatically think they are being pulled over for "driving while Mexican" (much like "driving while black"). What's really stupid is, these traffic violators will claim that even if the police officer is Hispanic as well. Police can't stop pulling people over, arresting people, and investigating people because they are different race.

It is sad, we don't view these situations as "that person must have been doing something wrong because the police officer arrested/shot/questioned/pulled over..." People need to stop watching cop shows and movies and stop believing there a lot of dirty cops out there. Try to squelch your ignorance before you speak, educate yourself with ALL the facts before rushing to judgments and jumping to conclusions.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 12:44 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:44:43 -0500

I remember that post well, and frankly, I was offended that a service member would even pose a question such as that to a forum filled with professional military service men and women.

I'm not sure who "we" is, and neither am I sure "what" it is we are supposed to heal. The Ferguson incident was something that was packaged by cable news outlets to tell the story that they wanted to sell, regardless of the facts.

I think law enforcement is an awesome profession. When I'm done with the Army, or when the Army is done with me, it may just be my second profession.

I think what public officials have done is to allow these protesters to take control of the city streets. The inmates seem to be running the asylum. What we need is public officials to give law enforcement the authority to take back control of the city, or cities.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 22 at 2014 1:01 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:01:46 -0500

Cpl Brett Wagner The lack of senior elected leadership on this issue, while not surprising, is disheartening.

No one mentioned the Tarpon Springs, FL officer who was killed the same day as the two NYPD Officers were assassinated either. He responded to a call for service, was attacked and shot, and then the suspect ran him over with the suspects' car before crashing and being taken into custody. The officer a Veteran of Tarpon Springs, FL Police was also a former NYPD officer and the father of 6.

The silence on the erosion of law enforcement's ability to protect citizens is deafening.

If the tragic deaths of Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Garner rate National leader and Attorney General press conference, intervention, and investigation why then does the assassination of two NYPD officers not?

The hardest fact to accept in Mr. Brown and Mr. Garner's case is they were both involved in criminality at the time law enforcement intervened. They were not arbitrarily contacted.

Killing of police will not heal the wounds in Ferguson and New York. Nether will encumbering law enforcement officers with doubt and questions about whether they will survive the incident but not the aftermath.

At some point we have to accept that bad things happen, sometimes to good people. Law enforcement officers carry weapons to protect themselves and the public, are trained to use them, and when faced with an unfortunate circumstance may be forced to use deadly force. No officer I have ever known looks for a reason or chance to use deadly force. Most of us hope to retire without ever having to make that decision.

Healing requires communication on both sides of the issue, a willingness to examine and accept facts, and the ability to look at the situation omnisciently. I do not believe we are at that point yet.

Further, public figures who present bias and even prejudice are not helping anyone. This includes the National News Media who seem to fan the flames.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 2:31 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 14:31:33 -0500

I believe these murders are circumstantial and not even related to the case of the suffocated man or Michael Brown. Please, let's not draw to conclusion so quickly!

Response by PO1 Michael Fullmer made Dec 22 at 2014 8:52 PM

PO1 Michael Fullmer — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 20:52:28 -0500

As a 16 yr. member of law enforcement, in my opinion, things have been getting progressively worse, especially over the past 12-24 months. The race-baiting, the bad mouthing, lack of support from certain quarters and overall general disdain coming being directed at law enforcement, including assaults/killings of numerous officers. I haven't seen law enforcement with a target on their backs since the 1970's and I for one am quite wary.

Make sense?

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 22 at 2014 10:27 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 22:27:54 -0500

First, the race baiters can stay out of it, and they are public officials. I won't say their names; I think some of you can name a few.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 11:07 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 23:07:03 -0500

Since the 5th of October, I count 31 officers who have been killed in the line of duty. Who is reporting that?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 9:42 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:42:14 -0500

No one is healed by shooting police officers. Nor is anyone healed by pointing at this event and saying "see, police are justified when they kill unarmed suspects".

You can support the job police do, and still want them to be held accountable for things like Eric Garner's choking death, shooting an unarmed teenager in Ferguson, and beating a homeless man to death in LA.

Likewise, you can disapprove of police abuses and still desire justice when officers are gunned down in the street.

It's not either-or.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:34 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:34:32 -0500

Worse

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:45 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:45:55 -0500

I think the root cause of this problem on this issue exists on several levels. And their is more than enough finger pointing to go around. You could blame law enforcement. Yes there are dirty cops and cops that don't care. In my may law enforcement career I was unlucky enough to encounter one or two. No matter what screening process you use, the law of averages dictates that x number of people will make their way into the profession. And I believe there is a ring of truth in the adage that states, "If you lie with a pig long enough, you're going to get dirty".

You could blame politicians. Our elected officials need to be careful of the type of message they are sending. In the military, we try to look at the second and third order effects of our decisions, and I'm not sure that is always the case in the political realm. Well meaning intentions can still send a message that isn't always positive. I'm sure we've all seen the picture on Facebook that states if Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Garner had been killed in Afghanistan, no one would have known. Knee jerk political reactions to these types of events do no one good.

You could blame the news media. The reporting of half truths and partial facts only fuel speculation and fan the flames of social discontent. The media reported daily on the Ferguson shooting, yet it took many weeks for the grand jury to sift through the evidence and arrive at a decision. During that time, it seemed to me that the media was already convicting the officer and portraying Michael Brown as the victim. I didn't know Michael Brown and I can't speak to his character, but I think the media is more concerned about making money than reporting the facts. But its not just the news media.

You can blame society. It seems that there is a growing trend these days to disrespect law enforcement. And we all like to be trendy. Yes, I am old. And when I grew up, the man in blue was to be respected, no matter what. While that may be extreme, I don't know that should be a totally antiquated philosophy. With the bombardment of today's youth with mixed messages from television, video games, and all of the other sources of stimulus, it's no wonder we have an issue.

Parents or caregivers also play a role in this. It is our responsibility to teach our kids right from wrong. And we need to understand that what we do is more important than what we say. We'd all like to think our kids are angels, but statistics show that isn't the case.

The solution has to be a change in philosophy from all levels. And the job is going to be much harder for law enforcement in the meantime. It is sad that the very people we have entrusted to protect us are the ones being vilified. Ok, I will get off my soap box now.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:45 AM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:45:11 -0500

A LEO in Florida was murdered within 24 hours of the two executed cops as well... this here's what we call a problem folks. There's bad cops out there and they deserve harsh scrutiny and harsh punishment when they fuck up. That's the price of responsibility. This crap though? Fuck this shit.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 12:25 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:25:54 -0500

This execution/murder of the NYC officers was clearly wrong, on so many levels. It doesn't heal anything. Now, LEOs will look at ALL of us black men as a threat, regardless. Killing cops, especially cops who were sitting in their patrol car not doing anything, is NEVER the answer to racial injustice and police brutality. I hope the shooter rots in Hell.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 12:42 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:42:30 -0500

I found this and thought it was fit for sharing in this thread. http://www.odmp.org/search/year

2015

So far this year, 95 law enforcement officers have died in the line of duty.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Dec 23 at 2014 12:56 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:56:32 -0500

It's shut Al Sharpton's pie hole for the time being so that's a start.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Dec 23 at 2014 1:10 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:10:44 -0500

This was so unwarranted and perpetrated by a man of color, "simply because". There was no rhyme or reason and no apparent racial profiling involved as the officers were not white. Unfortunately this is just widening the gap. The protests were centered solely around race - black suspect killed by white cop - and IMHO, that alone was and is the issue that is preventing any healing from occurring.

Police departments around the country are probably in states of hyper vigilance because they are afraid to rightfully go after a suspect of color simply because of the implications, and that is not right. Unfortunately this is what these protests are causing. No one should have to worry about race when "protecting and serving". What happens the next time a person of color is shot or confronted by a police officer? Do they let them go fearing bad press and protests?

Why aren't the Latino and Asian communities staging protests against the black community at this point? Is it because they have the sense to know it will do more harm than good to an already explosive situation? Where's Al Sharpton? Oh that's right, he wears color blinders and only sees what his racially narrow mind wants to see and in this case the man was probably justified in his point of view - scared of 2 policemen sitting in their car minding their own business.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 23 at 2014 1:30 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:30:55 -0500

We do not have a race problem. We have a HATE problem.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 3:55 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:55:08 -0500

The answer is no and it's only making the divide greater.

Response by SPC Donald Moore made Dec 23 at 2014 8:33 PM

SPC Donald Moore — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:33:37 -0500

Response by CAPT Gary Foster made Dec 24 at 2014 12:27 PM

CAPT Gary Foster — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:27:57 -0500

"How do we heal after Ferguson?" I think the question is more or less “how can we?” There is a nation-wide movement underway this very day to undermine the efforts for upholding law and order in our country, and the flames have been fanned by the current administration, and others who are self-appointed leaders that call themselves reverend. "To provide for the common defense" as the Preamble to our Constitution says, applies to our military as well as our police force, both nationally and internationally. For the one or two bad cops that make the news weekly, there are thousands of great deeds done daily by these men and women who serve that go unnoticed and unreported. I have the greatest respect and admiration for those who go into tense situations not knowing if they need to draw their weapons or not. One thing I did learn growing up is to respect authority, whether that is your parents, your boss, or the police. If the police have any reason to suspect that you have broken the law, then they will use force to take you down, especially if you resist. The two recent cases that have caused the tension were both cases where those individuals were breaking the law and then resisted. It is unfortunate that any one dies in those situations, but when authorities tell you to comply with their orders, but you keep on disobeying, they will take action. And most certainly if you threaten their lives they are trained to respond with their weapons. Kill or be killed is central to Rules of Engagement whether you serve in a combat zone or in the police force. Treyvon Martin gets a statement from the President. The Administration sends representatives to the Brown funeral in Ferguson. Two police officers are killed execution style in NYC and the crowd cheers, and the President is on vacation. Of course Mr. Sharpton has backed away from taking any heat, even after leading a demonstration last week in NYC where 3rd world citizens living in our country were chanting “What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!” This is not free speech. These are verbal threats, the same type of threats that get people thrown in jail for making against the President of the United States. I wonder where our Attorney General is after these recent police murders. He ought to be mobilizing the police force to round up the antagonists that are fueling these circumstances. Mayor DeBlasio certainly has no fans and cannot possibly maintain good order and discipline in the city of New York. He should be recalled or resign. It would be understandable if every cop in NYC turned their back on serving and walked off duty. I know they won’t because they take great pride in protecting the law-abiding citizens of that great city. It is difficult to watch a city get torn apart as in Ferguson and now in NYC. Watching the widow of Officer Liu taking time to thank the people for supporting her and the police force under such terrible circumstances was heart wrenching. The perpetrators won’t even abide by the Mayor’s personal plea to stand down until the city has had the time to pay respect and bury their dead officers. Officer Ramos’ was about to be ordained as a minister. He probably had more skill and ability than so called Reverend Sharpton. What a tragic loss. Yes, our leaders are making things worse. There is no accountability anymore. Apparently, those who continue to march want the police to vanish so they can exercise their free will to rape and pillage businesses owned by hard working American. Last thing I want to say about this is that if you watch the interview with these people, they are so caught up in using race as their argument. They cannot justify this in any way against the two deceased policemen, as they were of Asian and Hispanic descent. It is a losing battle to even try and reason with them. So expect them to cheer every time another police officer gets killed in the line of duty. Shameful, un-American punks and thugs. God will have their final answer.

Response by SSG Jim Foreman made Dec 25 at 2014 12:43 AM

SSG Jim Foreman — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 00:43:15 -0500

Without a doubt the media has made things worse. They love to distort the truth and say it's news. Law enforcement is a tough job and all this negative twisted news is making it tougher.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Dec 25 at 2014 10:33 AM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:33:45 -0500

Methinks Dr. King would be very very disappointed had he lived to see this day.

Hatred sucks, and racism is one of the worst forms of hatred.

Response by SPC Joseph Fisher made Dec 25 at 2014 2:27 PM

SPC Joseph Fisher — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 14:27:29 -0500

Like most issues the media gets it wrong. Why are they not responsible their actions? LIke in Furgason, Iraq, afghanistan etc etc...

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Dec 25 at 2014 4:43 PM

SSG Eddye Royal — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 16:43:43 -0500

My Family is from German, Native American, Black. half the family (In-laws) don't Vote, and say its all the Police fault. I have no Idea, what to say. I glad madman is died in NY. The one that went up to the Police Officer's while they where eating should have been MAN to stand trail; not Shoot his Girl friend that must have tried to stop him.

We have Rule of LAWS, but people have forgot about the Spirit of the LAW!!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 6:19 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 18:19:14 -0500

There was also one killed in Florida. I don't recall if he was a Sheriff's Deputy or not. Our elected officials seem to be adding fuel to the fire by doing a lot of nothing. Al Sharpton throws gallons of jet fuel on it by pandering to them and pushing for it to go further. These protesters seem to have no ability to think for themselves and only view things one way. If things keep going the way they are, it will definitely lead us to a Police State and I know none of us wants that.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 10:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 22:21:36 -0500

It warms the cockles of my heart to hear that a police officer has taken out the trash.

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 29 at 2014 9:54 AM

SPC Leisel Luman — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:54:14 -0500

CPL Bret Wagner, The only ones be helped by this are the people who want to divide and destroy our Capitalist Nation. Our president has set the tone for this by removing and ignoring anyone knowledgable about Military, Foreign Affairs,

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 29 at 2014 10:44 AM

SPC Leisel Luman — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:44:23 -0500

..... Continued. Example parading deserter Burghdahl's parents on the WH Lawn. Giving the five worst criminals a get out of jail free card after negotiating with terrorist. Determining the Fort Hood massacre "Work Place Violence". Which resulted in denial of benefits to the Dead / wounded soldiers and families for many years. You can not leave race out of it when our president take race relations advice from Al Sharpton. He had plenty to say about Michael Brown being killed and almost mute about the Officers being executed, SGT Tahmooressi etc.. To answer your question I do believe our elected officials have made it worse in my humble opinion. We need to be a country united not divided especially now. I know the president stated we have Eliminated terrorism from Afghanistan but for some reason I don't believe it.

Response by SFC Mark Sutton made Jan 3 at 2015 4:06 AM

SFC Mark Sutton — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 04:06:09 -0500

Here is a thought! How the police adopt the same tactics that the German police do. And we as a nation treat them the same way the Germans treat their police "With respect" and the police are right until proven wrong. You do not see this stupid stuff going on over there. This is because the police would have came in and handled the riots the water cannons. Treat them with respect and you get respect treat them stupid and you get stupid.
This whole thing is just getting way too out of hand!!!!! Skin color be damned. Lives matter!!

Response by Sgt David G Duchesneau made Feb 6 at 2015 9:26 PM

Sgt David G Duchesneau — Fri, 06 Feb 2015 21:26:08 -0500

After being Honorably Discharged from the Marine Corps I was appointed to the NH State Police. It was 1971 that I was appointed as a Trooper and I served the State from 1971 until my retirement in August 1991. During that time, I had the good fortune to do it all. I was a Trooper patrolling the State Highways and eventually being promoted to Detectives on the Major Crime Unit and then as a line Sergeant, supervisor. Back then, we didn't have any cameras watching over us. There were no cell phones and hell, we didn't even have portable radios. We worked alone and that included patrolling the State's highways on the midnight shift. I did not ever worry about anyone attacking me because back then, we were respected. Hell, we demanded that respect and we didn't put up with any bull at all from anyone, no matter what color or who they were.. Most of us were Veterans and we knew how to take acre of ourselves, take orders from our supervisors and used good old common sense . We always called for back-up when we thought we needed it. Back in the 70's and early 80's, yes we had those hard core left wing radical groups, like the United Freedom Front, The Weathermen, Black Panther Party and many more that hated authorities but we had good old fashion intelligence and neighboring States worked together and shared that intelligence information. Sure, we had our usual 10 % of slackers, but that was in any line of civilian life. Those who just did enough to get by. But things started to change and it became very apparent that the job and those who were joining the Force were a different bread. Now instead of Veterans, we were getting college graduates and they all wanted to be the boss because they were educated. Instead of following orders, they started asking that stupid question "why me." "Why do I have to do that?" Well, we had a few of our Troopers getting assaulted during traffic stops and of course, we had some even get shot at. Even in our remote State of NH, we had our encounters with some of these bad ass criminals that tried and did succeed in fatally shooting some of our Troopers, especially on SWAT and domestic calls or just stopping the wrong vehicle. As a cop, you never know who your were stopping but the one being stopped knew that we were the Law. I had the race card pulled on me so many times and every time I did, I told that subject that I didn't care what color he or she was and that they were going to be treated just like everyone else. Now, it seems that the Police today are targets to every radical group and yes, the administration is partly to blame for this. Today, values have changed and their is little respect for anyone in authority, especially the Police. I could go on and on, but I would sound like a broken record. How do we heal, we heal together, together as a Nation and hopefully, good values and respect for authorities, the Police Officer doing his job, will turn around and these atrocious shootings of our Police Officers will someday cease.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Mar 25 at 2015 7:24 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 19:24:26 -0400

Our politicians have not made things any better by jumping on the "bad cops" bandwagon and then when police officers are killed they just look at their shoelaces. Our politicians need to review facts before speaking out.