Is anyone concerned with how they will base the promotions (centralized) on talent and not Seniority?

2018-06-30T16:06:51-04:00

I do believe "talent" to be a rather vague and broad adjective to base the qualification for promotion. In one case, you could have a hungry 5 yr TIG SSG that has all the schools, college, and deployment experience to boot. Does that equate to senior leadership potential? In another case you have a seasoned 12yr TIG SSG that has many of the broadening aspects of what it takes to be an NCO, i.e Drill Sergeant/Recruiter/AITPSG, Battle Staff, SHARP, EOL. But hasn't spent one day as a squad leader in their respective MOS/CMF. What is talent worth at that point an NCOER that has a Mostly Qualified and Highly Exceeded Standard vs the Highly Qualified and Exceeded Standard? I have a feeling there is going to be confusion regardless. Maybe it is just with me and my limited understanding of the whole process?

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2018 4:15 PM

2018-06-30T16:15:38-04:00

The talent vs seniority is to stop those Soldier who think that just showing up is enough to earn a promotion. Both the soldiers you described sound talented, albeit in different arenas but they have both done something to advance their career and increase their value to the military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2018 4:43 PM

2018-06-30T16:43:40-04:00

I hope so

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2018 5:02 PM

2018-06-30T17:02:16-04:00

In any promotion system there will be some flaws. However, the Army already promotes base on potential, which is also a vague criteria. Now, if everyone is reading what is expected from their CMF no NCO should have issues getting those key developmental assignments.

The talent piece of the promotion system is to determine who gets pinned first. Instead of waiting 1 to 2 years for a pin on date because of your time of service or grade. The most talented can get promoted with a low sequence number, if you want to call it that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2018 5:27 PM

2018-06-30T17:27:06-04:00

Does it really matter how they base promotions? It's simple you are either both good at what you do in your MOS and at being an NCO which allows you to continue to progress and move up or you aren't and you either RCP as a SGT, Retire a SSG, get QMP'd etc. It also doesn't really matter what your sequence number is just that you know that you made the cut and you will recieve your well earned promotion in due time.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2018 7:06 PM

2018-06-30T19:06:19-04:00

When referencing the centralized promotion system change - I believe you are discussing the change in the sequence number assignment. The boards will still grade on a 1-6 (+ -) system evaluating performance and potential, but the way that those “selected” for promotion are assigned a sequence number will be changing. I believe this change is much needed, as I feel it aligns more with talent management rather than simple longevity. Personally, I was selected for promotion to SFC and now MSG both in the secondary zone, and I waited 15 months for promotion to SFC and likely another 15 months for MSG. Under the proposed changes, the most qualified Soldiers will be promoted first, rather than simply the most senior. I hope this was on target with your discussion, and these are just my opinions on it - if others have differing opinions I would love to hear them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2018 10:14 PM

2018-06-30T22:14:33-04:00

Well I think the change counters what we’re trying to accomplish. With the force build up. Also, we let go of a good portion of our midgrade veterans through this sequestration. A lot of them left on their own accord cause they lost faith or other reasons etc. it doesn’t dismiss the end result. You can’t replace experience... if there going to do this they need to raise the RCP for SSG for over 20 years. If we keep this up there will be nobody to promote. Lmao! And I reply to people who say there is always someone to promote that’s just ignorants. Look at the strengths right now. All the points for most career fields going to SSG are 14. All the troops i interact with on a daily basis already have plans of getting out after their initial tour citing the new blended retirement is not worth it and the thought of a career in the army is a borderline joke. Also my experience with NCOs that pick up fast is they leave the army anyway. Like we say it’s a numbers game. I’d promote the guy with more seniority to retain them and secure the army’s investment. At our current track record, We got a long way to go with plenty of potential future wars to be won and too many strength issues at this time...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2018 2:58 PM

2018-07-01T14:58:47-04:00

One of the problems that I see with the statement that the "army promotes based on potential and performance" is when the army needs it goals met. I have seen points for Combat Medics and Practical Nurses drop to 39 to fill the void when they stayed at 798 so even the people with the best performance and potential could not get promoted through out the year. Yes they have to attend a board... yes they have to complete NCOES... and yes they have to make the points... that doesn't mean they have great potential or performance. I have seen "board soldiers" get DUIs the next day, college educated personnel ill equipped to handle common sense problem sets, and Enlisted personnel who did nothing but go to schools. So if you are telling me the army promotes based on potential and performance that is about 50% true. Sometimes it opens the flood gates to anyone when it is needed regardless of if they are ready or not. You have people that make SFC in 7-8 that end up losing it within a year for drugs, SHARP, EO, etc. I have seen great NCOs that were peers who i have fought with and would again, who never got selected and ended up just giving up. I mean these guys/gals were Drill, Recruiter, Instructor, PSG, Detachment SGT, no AR 15, max PT, max weapon, max school, max everything and still never got picked up. It's a lot more than a flawed system. God love them, but I would never want to work at HRC. How do you know... i mean really know... you picked the right person? By saying oh man... his performance and potential look great on paper... unless a message comes out saying we need 5000 SFC now, then youre in the same boat opening the flood gates and there goes most of the performance and potential. It's a broken system but it is all we have as there is no way to tell the future or monitor someone 24/7. Through experience I am unable to verify the full efficiency of the P&P scenario. But thats just my thoughts.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2018 2:13 PM

2018-07-02T14:13:56-04:00

I would have to agree with a lot of your guys points. If you combine all your answers into one it would provide the best fit. But as far as a hungry young NCO versus a seasoned one, the seasoned one should have the upper hand. Granted I have been to few military courses due to the deployments and everything else and now its starting to slow down on the deployments and I'm stuck with having slim pickings on my military education. I have spent my 17 years working in a motor pool and managing the motor pool. As far as trying to get all those awesome classes everyone wants to get, because it makes them look good, I was always put into the front lines and wasn't allowed to go to the courses, no matter how much I fought for them. I had to fight for my SLC class date, instead of going to NTC. I think that when you reach a certain point in your military career, instead of constantly deploying or managing motor pools, or whatever your job entails, you should be focused on getting those things and the units should be pushing for those schools instead of burning out NCO's and preventing them to progress. I personally have never had a the DS, Recruiter, EO, SHARP, or any of the other wonderful classes. My units were always combat focused or the unit was already full with the random stuff. I do hope the best for you guys and everyone that is on the list. I hope that I will get to see my name on that list as well.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2018 7:19 PM

2018-07-12T19:19:22-04:00

What will be interested to see is you have two people get picked. One has SLC completed and the other does not, what happens if the SM with SLC complete gets a higher sequence number then the SM who does not have SLC but has a date, I foresee alot of that happening for some reason.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 27 at 2018 9:04 AM

2018-07-27T09:04:21-04:00

Seniority is good sometimes- but often can equate to stagnation, apathy or lack of drive. It is a balancing act between hard chargers and leavened TIG troops.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jul 27 at 2018 9:09 AM

2018-07-27T09:09:47-04:00

SSG(P) Christopher Boson experience will outshine talent any day.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2018 1:14 PM

2018-09-26T13:14:01-04:00

I am just speculating based on my understanding of Enlisted Promotions. But, I would say the Army would be weighting the promotion potential of an NCO rather than based on seniority. I would take a high speed E6 for my PLT SGT vs. someone who was a dud. Or a Great E7 for my 1SG, rather than someone who had "put in their time" if that makes sense.

In my prior service life- I had a Platoon Sergeant that was substandard. When we had company formations & our PLT SGT was putting info out- I would listen to the other PLT SGT put out info, he was much more informing to his team! He later got his CSM and became the Fires/Artillery Sergeant Major at Ft. Sill, OK.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2020 5:35 PM

2020-07-07T17:35:46-04:00

This is just my opinion from ground level.
I’ve seen high TIG NCOs act entitled and be subpar and I’ve seen low TIG NCOs void of military tact and etiquette because they have been to schools.
For starters this climate of schools being the end all be all needs to go way. Everyone’s experience in the military varies. Schools in my opinion are never guaranteed and shouldn’t hold weight over what’s in the NCOER.
More so than not I’ve seen low TIG NCOs have attitude, ego and customs/courtesies issues.
I don’t have a magical bandaid for “bad” NCOs being pushed forward because they look good on paper.
My only suggestion is NCOERs need to be brutally honest, counselings etc. Grooming soldiers to get rid of toxicity, entitled attitudes, could be a starting point.
Not a know it all, I’m just relating what’s going on down in the mud.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2021 2:44 PM

2021-07-20T14:44:35-04:00

There's no perfect process; accomplishments, experience, training, working successfully in a position above your paygrade, and accomplishing should carry far more weight than merely attending NCO schools, and getting a degree with minimum time in grade or service.