Is calling a MSG in the Army “Top” appropriate or only exclusively used for a 1SG?

2020-11-03T09:11:05-05:00

For my own curiosity in Army culture, is it appropriate to call a MSG “Top”? I know the phrase refers to the senior ranked enlisted person (1SG) responsible for a Company or Battery, but say there was a Joint Task Force with the highest enlisted rank was an Army MSG. Can they be called “Top”?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 9:25 AM

2020-11-03T09:25:48-05:00

well msg usually get more respect

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 9:35 AM

2020-11-03T09:35:46-05:00

First Sergeants only, but I would say that it is a very informal term of address and many First Sergeants don't like it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 9:42 AM

2020-11-03T09:42:52-05:00

This definitely varies by unit. I've only seen top used in support companies and never in combat arms units, particularly airborne combat arms units.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 9:54 AM

2020-11-03T09:54:01-05:00

I was a SSG in one unit. I was in the Detachment Sergeant spot. That is the spot for the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Commander. I was called "Top" from time to time. It's unit depending. If the MSG is the Top Kick in the unit....then they could be called "Top" if they allow it.

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Nov 3 at 2020 11:36 AM

2020-11-03T11:36:41-05:00

I didn’t mind it but I served under a 1st Sgt that hated it. He would get in your face and say “Do I look like I spin in my head? Don’t you ever call me Top, I am a 1st Sgt”. I thought to myself damn lighten up would you. I’ve always called my 1st Sgt “Top”. Felt sorry for the PFC. but the rest of the company learned quickly not to call him Top.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 11:57 AM

2020-11-03T11:57:01-05:00

Depends, I guess. I never referred to any 1SG as top. I hear it more in the Reserves, but still I never refer to a 1SG as top.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Nov 3 at 2020 12:04 PM

2020-11-03T12:04:03-05:00

Nick names for particular ranks will always be left up to the individual. Each respective branch has their own variations but the basic rule is to not call them that if you don't know them or know their stance on it. Quick way to a butt chewing if you get too friendly with the wrong guy. In the Corps Top is reserved specifically for MSgts. But Marines do get a kick when a sassy Solider rolls into the AO and has the balls to call a GySgt or SSgt by Sarge or Sgt. Or when a 1stSgt is referred to as Top. That is comedy gold.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Nov 3 at 2020 12:22 PM

2020-11-03T12:22:17-05:00

I've heard the term First Shirt and Top but usually only when talking about them, not to addressing them in person. As an Air Force First Sergeant at one point the only one I ever heard address Me as top was an Army Troop, I'm not bothered by it but never used that term or First Shirt Myself in addressing a First Sergeant and don't intend to either.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 1:47 PM

2020-11-03T13:47:22-05:00

A master sergeant is called sergeant; a first sergeant is called first sergeant. That's all one need know! Lol

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 2:24 PM

2020-11-03T14:24:35-05:00

No one calls a MSG "Top" unless they're the 1SG. Honestly, I've never in 16 years called any 1SG, "Top," either. I call them 1SG.

In fact, per AR 600-20, you don't even have to call a MSG "Master Sergeant." You can call them "Sergeant." Every NCO rank from SGT - MSG the title of address is "Sergeant."

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 2:56 PM

2020-11-03T14:56:07-05:00

As the senior E-8 in my Battalion, I was frequently called "Top". It didn't bother me and I never corrected them. I took it as a sign of respect.

Response by Maj Charles Porter made Nov 3 at 2020 2:58 PM

2020-11-03T14:58:15-05:00

Call'em first shirt or sleeve. Top kick is always a good one. The Master Sergeant who ran the turret shop, Had been a Major in Viet Nam and reverted. I just called him Sir.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Nov 3 at 2020 3:14 PM

2020-11-03T15:14:48-05:00

I have seen some former 1SG's referred to it by people who had worked for them after they changed over from a Leadership position to a staff position.

Response by SPC Woody Bullard made Nov 3 at 2020 3:17 PM

2020-11-03T15:17:49-05:00

My 558th MP Company First Sergeant in Germany did not like any new arriving
MP calling him "Top". After a few months when he got to know you and he did
get to know all of us he felt the "Top" reference to his First Sergeant rank was
OK coming from veteran MP's. He did not like "First Shirt" used by anyone.

Response by SPC Douglas Bolton made Nov 3 at 2020 3:28 PM

2020-11-03T15:28:43-05:00

Doesn’t matter they both are both outstanding.

Response by SFC Terry Wilcox made Nov 3 at 2020 3:37 PM

2020-11-03T15:37:24-05:00

Stands for TOP Sergeant in a company - - only the First Sergeant is Called "TOP". At times there have been an MSG and even a few SFC's that were assigned in a First Sergeant's slot - therefore they could be addressed as "TOP". A couple times I was the ranking Sergeant in a company - - was not the "TOP", because I wasn't the Company's First Sergeant.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 3:45 PM

2020-11-03T15:45:24-05:00

Myself it’s to each it’s own my MSG in my company I address him by his full rank because of respect master sergeant. I hate addressing e5–e8 as sergeant. But my 1sg I say first sergeant my other e8 it’s hey master sergeant ( name)

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Nov 3 at 2020 5:05 PM

2020-11-03T17:05:00-05:00

Top is a pretty POG term anyway.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 7:54 PM

2020-11-03T19:54:10-05:00

I call them by either Master Sergeant and 1st Sergeant. I called very few as Top!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 8:50 PM

2020-11-03T20:50:25-05:00

Personally, I'm with @1SG Anonymous on this one. I call 1SG that I respect Top (unless they tell me not to), but I also refer to MSG as "Master Sergeant" or "Mass-Sarn't." To me, it's a respect thing. If I dont like you, you get no familiarity with me, and you'll only get the stone cold, half-hearted addresses and responses out of me. If I respect you, or I like you, you'll usually get something a little more familiar or more akin to camaraderie from me.

But the caveat to that is that of I am going to address you formally by rank, I would expect the same. If I call you "Top," I got no problems with P, P-A, Petey, Tony, Petri, or anything else. But if you demand a formal address because "oh, I have a rank and I earned it," then all is fair in love and war, I have one of them rank patches too, and I earned it. You may address me accordingly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2020 8:59 PM

2020-11-03T20:59:18-05:00

When I was a 1SG my guys would call me top to grind my gears. It’s for sure a term used for 1SGs outside the infantry world. BLUF DO NOT call me top or I’ll call you bottom.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Nov 4 at 2020 5:58 AM

2020-11-04T05:58:49-05:00

Never was around many actual Army 1SG but did serve with several MSG's during my many years of joint assignments. Never heard of a MSG being referred to as "Top" though I suppose it could have happened. That term was generally used exclusively for the 1SG and ONLY if s/he had stated they didn't mind the term of address.

Response by PO1 Richard Nyberg made Nov 4 at 2020 6:12 PM

2020-11-04T18:12:42-05:00

The first Sgt was the only one I ever called Top. The others I called by their rank.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2020 9:11 AM

2020-11-05T09:11:57-05:00

I’ve always called my 1SG Top.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2020 10:10 AM

2020-11-05T10:10:59-05:00

It simply depends on the culture of the unit. I call any MSG “Sergeant”. No environment I have ever been in have I heard any level of NCOIC (Task Force or otherwise) be called “top”. A task force NCOIC is not the same thing as a 1SG, does not share the same responsibilities, and is not rooted in the same culture as the background of the term “top”. In my *opinion* there’s more to being “top” than being the senior enlisted member of a section.

Response by SPC Robert DeVolld made Nov 5 at 2020 12:54 PM

2020-11-05T12:54:52-05:00

If you had a Jewish 1st Sergeant, would you call him "dredle"?

Response by SSG John Jensen made Nov 5 at 2020 3:44 PM

2020-11-05T15:44:12-05:00

one of my 1SGs later became a Warrant Officer - and everytime I saw CW4 Keister I would loudly say "its my favorite 1SG!" He loved it. On occasion he would be with a Maj or similar who would be furious until chief keister answered "hi John!"

Response by MSG Brian Keene made Nov 5 at 2020 6:13 PM

2020-11-05T18:13:44-05:00

It never bothered me. I was the acting BN and BDE CSM as a MSG for several months at a time multiple times.

Response by SPC John Decker made Nov 5 at 2020 9:32 PM

2020-11-05T21:32:35-05:00

We had a MSG in my unit that told us NOT to call him Top. "When you get the diamond, you earn the nick-name". Something to that effect.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Nov 6 at 2020 10:46 AM

2020-11-06T10:46:03-05:00

No you should not call a MSG top That’s only for 1Sgt
My troops called me Boss I was ok with that
I see some 1st Sgt responded they don’t like it the phase Top
These are Top’s are up tight and are driven by power not the pursuit of the troops

Response by PO3 Scot Fahey made Nov 7 at 2020 2:51 PM

2020-11-07T14:51:58-05:00

US Navy has Master Chief for E-9

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2020 12:25 AM

2020-11-08T00:25:11-05:00

In my experience the service member you are addressing needs to be a first sergeant, “and” you better know him/her, and have a good relationship with them. Even then it is not for all occasions. When id doubt, don’t use the name.

Response by MSG Dennis Lane made Nov 8 at 2020 7:46 PM

2020-11-08T19:46:25-05:00

As a retired master sergeant, I defer that appellation to a first sergeant. My experience is that I was a Battalion S-3 NCO, and I am proud to have filled that position. E-8 is E-8, but the rank devices apply to Master Sergeant and First Sergeant. I think "Top" belongs to a First Sergeant. It's unofficial, I'm sure, but if you call me Top, and some have, I certainly take no offense.

Response by MSG Dennis Lane made Nov 8 at 2020 7:51 PM

2020-11-08T19:51:44-05:00

I think some of these nicknames come from WWII. The Company Commander, even though he was in his 20's, was the Old Man. The First Sergeant was the Top Kick. A second lieutenant was a Louie. None of these is probably an appropriate term for direct address.

Response by MSG Jim Conley made Nov 9 at 2020 10:45 PM

2020-11-09T22:45:55-05:00

Might do to understand the history of "top sergeant" aka "first Sergeant"...

Response by MSG David Holmden made Nov 10 at 2020 9:03 AM

2020-11-10T09:03:52-05:00

There’s MANY ways this could be answered. From what I’ve seen in my career it’s ALL over the place. Many of the units I’ve been in or associated with is 1SG is 1SG, MSG is Top, but many 1SG’s usually have been MSG’s and like the “nick name” Top. Because I was in units that I’ve seen it both ways, it’s usually good to just ask when you start interactions with them. I was an E-7 but was interm 1SG until the new 1SG was brought in, many called me Top just because of the position. But between MSG and 1SG it’s the same darn rank, it’s just a position, no one should get all bent because someone “called” you by your rank. If ya prefer Top, NP, if ya prefer 1SG, so be it.
Just my two pennies for the day!!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2020 10:42 AM

2020-11-10T10:42:58-05:00

I have always called my 1SG—or any 1SG—Top. I have never met a 1SG who didn’t want to be called Top.

I get called Top on occasion; not sure why. My title is SGT and not Top or Master Sergeant

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Nov 10 at 2020 1:15 PM

2020-11-10T13:15:44-05:00

It depends on the unit, the commander, and the 1SG. When I had my company command in an aviation assault company (UH-1) I had a SFC for a First Sergeant. I called him Top. The Warrant Officers called him Top. He was the senior enlisted man in the unit therefore Top. When I was an infantry platoon leader in the 82nd airborne we did not call the 1SG Top.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Nov 10 at 2020 3:19 PM

2020-11-10T15:19:47-05:00

At the Commissary meat counter was posted numerous signs which read:
E5 Brains-- $.75 a pound
E6 Brains-- $1.25 a pound
E7 Brains-- $4.75 a pound
E8 Brains-- $8.50 a pound
E9 Brains-- $25.00 a pound
The young E2 asked the Butcher behind the counter why the E9’s brains were so expensive.
The answer was: Do you know how many E9s it takes to get a pound of brains.

Some people will think this is funny; however, some senior enlisted and officers will be offended. Many of them are the ones who want to be called “Supreme Being”.
Stay with the rank and the last name for it is safer.

Response by MSG Felipe De Leon Brown made Nov 10 at 2020 10:55 PM

2020-11-10T22:55:21-05:00

Based on my experiences, I would say yes. In the vast majority of cases, calling a Master Sergeant "Top" is acceptable and respectful. Besides, it's a lot easier than saying "Master Sergeant" and shows more respect than just "Sergeant". A MSG in a Special Forces Operational Detachment A is the senior enlisted and is almost always called "Top". This is also the case in the Special Forces Schools where the senior enlisted in a committee is usually a MSG. In all of my assignments after I was promoted to MSG, whether I was in a MSG/E-8 slot or a SGM/E-9 slot the majority of the officers and enlisted with whom I interacted called me "Top" or "SGM".

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2020 11:01 PM

2020-11-10T23:01:41-05:00

Also I mean I understand the reg as well but I like to address your title. Respect goes a long way regardless if you dislike someone give them the proper courtesy with the rank they have obtained...Now with me as an e6 I’m fine with them saying sgt but once I make that diamond I want my respect on my name ( first Sergeant)

Response by 1SG Robert Rush made Nov 11 at 2020 11:20 AM

2020-11-11T11:20:48-05:00

To me, "TOP" referred to the First Sergeant. He is the TOP soldier in that unit. I have never heard a Master Sergeant referred to as TOP, I retired in 2009 and don't know what is happening on active duty today.

Response by 1SG Matt Hendrickson made Nov 12 at 2020 12:23 AM

2020-11-12T00:23:16-05:00

It doesn’t bother me, but yes only 1SG

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2020 11:28 PM

2020-11-12T23:28:37-05:00

Do yourself a favor and just forget that word. The rank is either Master Sergeant First Sergeant; there is no other substitute to it.

Response by MSG James Devereaux made Nov 14 at 2020 8:17 AM

2020-11-14T08:17:40-05:00

Trust me when I say calling either a “top” is a very bad idea. I’ve heard the term used around support units or units that had no discipline. I was called “Top” once a long time ago. I thoroughly enjoyed hurting that young NCO.... good days

Response by A1C Tim Rohrer made Nov 14 at 2020 9:36 PM

2020-11-14T21:36:01-05:00

Focus on your job?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2020 3:39 AM

2020-11-19T03:39:36-05:00

Since I was a PV2 I’ve heard our NCOs call 1SG top. So when I finally earned the privilege to hold the rank/position it never bothered me. Personally, I never got too hung up on the rank/title. Now when I switched back to MSG, many folks that knew me still address me as Top. Now someone who might not know our professional relationship may find it inappropriate and so they would explain why. I recommend the next time you have a person to person conversation ask him/her what their preference are. Get a feel for the person and if you happen to call them too and they don’t like it, they should at least be professional with their on the spot correction.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2020 4:10 AM

2020-11-19T04:10:11-05:00

Not as a formal address to the senior enlisted adviser is it appropriate. We are called by rank just as you.

Response by 1SG Roger Erickson made Nov 19 at 2020 10:46 AM

2020-11-19T10:46:31-05:00

I believe the point is in its use and or the context of using Top. Obviously if a COL walked in and after appropriate action taken done and he said how are you doing TOP what is he is going to say. If I am having a casual conversation with soldiers in my unit, what do I want? I want them to talk to me and be up front and comfortable enough to be honest with me. So to me it’s the context- am I new to unit them I have to set expectations / what the unit’s expectations for addressing NCC’s set by Commanders Co, BN, BDE. Then of course the proverbial you obviously don’t know who I am.

Response by MSG William H Linder Jr made Nov 19 at 2020 2:58 PM

2020-11-19T14:58:38-05:00

I was called Top as an E7 because the 1SG position was an E7 rank slot. I had several E8's in the unit but their slots were in for another area of responsibility.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2020 5:05 AM

2020-12-11T05:05:33-05:00

I have been both ranks. I am good with anything representative that another Soldier calls me. It's about being in the army and allowing the traditions to continue. A pog is a pog, a grunt is a grunt and a top is a top. Some exertion at that level is an unnecessary attempt to exhibit seniority when it's already been achieved.

Response by 1SG Rick Seekman made Dec 18 at 2020 10:39 PM

2020-12-18T22:39:56-05:00

A MSG is different than a 1SG. Different responsibilities. Personally, I despised the name top.

Response by 1SG Mitchell Smith made Dec 26 at 2020 4:46 PM

2020-12-26T16:46:11-05:00

MSG, not in charge nah don't do it. However, CALL ME TOP I liked it...TOP DAWG. There's no other bite in the company quite like the set of teeth I used on any bone that came through my company.

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Dec 28 at 2020 4:36 PM

2020-12-28T16:36:56-05:00

i thought 'top' went with the position, so i dont know if a msg qualifies .

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2020 11:36 AM

2020-12-29T11:36:32-05:00

I liked it.......until Soldiers who didn’t know me well started calling me that. I definitely took it as a term of familiarity, but I never got ticked off about it. I just “educated” my younger Soldiers on when it is and isn’t appropriate....ie- don’t assume “Top” is ok for any 1SG at any time.

It’s not for MSG’s.

Response by CPO Gary Bucy made Jan 1 at 2021 8:58 AM

2021-01-01T08:58:14-05:00

Military courtesy prevails. 1SG.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Jan 3 at 2021 3:38 AM

2021-01-03T03:38:03-05:00

That's mostly reserved for 1SG's. BUT, If the MSG is the SENIOR NCO in the Company, then it would apply UNLESS they CURSE you out for you calling them that. You might get a better answer if you do a correspondence course on Military Customs and Courtesy.

Response by 1SG Russell S. made Jan 11 at 2021 8:03 AM

2021-01-11T08:03:14-05:00

I always saw it as a sign of respect. “Correct”??.. no

Response by MSG Donald Patrick made Jan 26 at 2021 1:43 AM

2021-01-26T01:43:55-05:00

Top is normally reserved for the 1SG. ... but has been used for MSG. In my time it was a sign of respect. My proper title of address (according to AR600-10 at the time) was ‘Master Sergeant’. I was told that was a mouth full. ‘Top’ was a lot easier on their tongue. I didn’t object.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jan 26 at 2021 3:31 PM

2021-01-26T15:31:28-05:00

It's based on their role. The top NCO in the company. Usually it's spoken unofficially. I've never heard the term used in formation but informally, yes.

Response by 1SG Angello Gordon made Feb 9 at 2021 1:46 AM

2021-02-09T01:46:53-05:00

No, that title is only reserved to 1SG Or if you know that person was a 1SG and have recently left that position.

Response by 1SG William McIntosh made May 5 at 2021 1:45 AM

2021-05-05T01:45:49-04:00

Normally no.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Oct 30 at 2021 11:22 AM

2021-10-30T11:22:48-04:00

First Sgt were always addressed by rank, our shop NCOIC was a Master Guns and he was Top. Sgt Majors always addressed by rank as well.

Response by SGT Brianna MacKinnon made Oct 30 at 2021 11:40 AM

2021-10-30T11:40:19-04:00

I would only use the term Top to refer to a 1SG that I respected. If I did not respect them I would use the formal and correct 1SG when referring to them.

As for say a MSG being the highest NCO in a Joint Task Force, I might refer to them as Top but ONLY if they earn my respect and ONLY if I was assigned under them. Otherwise, I am going to refer to them as MSG.

Response by SPC Michael Micallef made Oct 30 at 2021 9:36 PM

2021-10-30T21:36:39-04:00

I was in during the mid 80’s. I always called him 1st sgt. Never top.

Response by 1SG Jerome Kuderna made Nov 19 at 2021 5:43 PM

2021-11-19T17:43:53-05:00

I wore the diamond 3 times, I never told people to call me Too, or 1SG. Both are a sign of respect. One way to tell how you affected your Troops is what they call you after your change of responsibility.

Response by MSG Victor Milasus made Apr 9 at 2022 5:50 PM

2022-04-09T17:50:52-04:00

No. If you are in an Acting First Sergeant position as a Master Sergeant, you should still be addressed as First Sergeant. Top is an old school word used along the way that was accepted by many as a First Sergeant. Today times have changed.