Is dropping a Soldier for push ups considered hazing?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:37:25 -0400

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 9:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 21:14:01 -0400

SFC Ballard,<div><br></div><div>1) If you call it a "smoke session", if you "smoke" them, etc, then yes, that is hazing.</div><div>2) If you do it by FM 7-22, then no. There are 8 recommended exercises to be conducted in cadence at five reps each. As long as you stay with FM 7-22, then you can provide Physical Corrective Training and have yourself covered if that individual goes to IG.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd be sure to double check with post regulation on the matter though. Some installations have different policies in place in regards to this issue. Again though, do not use the word "smoke" or it's variations. That is what will get you in trouble.</div><div><br></div><div>V/r</div><div>SGT Mullet</div>

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 9:51 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 21:51:24 -0400

I consider dropping a Soldier to do pushups just stupid not hazing. It's pointless and does nothing to advance the discipline or respect of the Soldier.<div><br></div><div>I have managed to never drop a Soldier in 13 years and never have had an issue. </div><div><br></div><div>A Soldier is late to formation and someone makes them do pushups, how does that teach them to be on time? All it does is embarrass the Soldier in front of his peers or at best just hate you.</div><div><br></div><div>just my personal opinion.</div>

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 24 at 2014 10:00 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:00:40 -0400

No, as far as I am concerned it is a method of teaching the soldier to pay attention and do as he is instructed. It is conditioning the body and strengthening the mind.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 12:19 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 00:19:19 -0400

I believe no it is not, however, there is a fine line that one can cross. If you drop a soldier for reps and say nothing but the cadence its just additional P.T. then you explain why that Joe just did 15 4 count push ups. If you yell hoop and holler at the SM then you are ruining the point you are trying to prove. You can also foster an environment where your Soldiers have a deep respect for you, that they fear the feelings they internally have if they disappoint you rather that the "smoke session." If you can accomplish that then you have a pretty squared the fu*k away outfit, and the need to "drop" a soldier will be nonexistent.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 2:57 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 02:57:30 -0400

Someone email GEN Odierno or GEN Dempsey and ask. They're on global...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 3:15 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:15:36 -0400

Agreed. The analogy of sledgehammering or punching clearly falls under the charges of assault. The term "corrective training" that we all used to use is what people are now trying to cry about and call "hazing". When you analyze the situation logically you have to follow it to its conclusion. If you can no longer give "corrective training" because it is not identified as "hazing" but you still have to punish the soldier, then you must do so in accordance with the regulations. Ergo, you must write them up in a counselling statement (which becomes a written record) and if they don't improve then you have to resort to an Article 15. When I talk to my soldiers, they would much rather have me give them "corrective training" and smoke the crap out of them than to have some written record of their screw up. Especially if we go into another "zero defects" Army like we had in the mid-90s...anything negative that gets documented on your record ends up coming back to bite you when the Army starts looking for reasons to get rid of people.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 3:16 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:16:37 -0400

Do it with them and there won't be any discussions.  When I was a Corporal and didn't have much experience really leading Marines I really preferred making my Marines pay physically than administratively for I believed most Marines needed to feel their mistakes and not have a piece a paper they'll toss in the trash.  To avoid this whole hazing thing, I just ensured I could PT harder than my Marines and when they jacked up we PT'd to stupid fatigue.  But this was me as a young leader taking after how my NCO's were.  <div><br></div><div>As a SNCO now, I will push paperwork since it's a more professional approach but I push my Corporals and Sergeants to take care of things at their level, ensuring the punishment fits the crime, and that it's constructive and makes sense.</div>

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 3:19 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:19:51 -0400

<p>I completely agree with both of you. Take the sledgehammer for example, that is a flat out criminal act and everyone in that room should be separated. </p><p> </p><p>If you're psychotic enough to actually injure a Soldier with corrective training, you're probably the type of guy that thought whacking a Sergeant with a wooden mallot is funny. </p><p> </p><p>Im simply talking about yanking the leash. In my five years as a NCO i've probably made two guys do more than a couple of pushups. Most of the time it was a guy who was, for example, moving too slow. I'd drop him for a couple seconds, tell him to get up, and ask if we can please drive on with what we were doing. It WORKS. </p>

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 3:22 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:22:30 -0400

Hazing are not pushups?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 3:43 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:43:22 -0400

A toxic leader (no matter what grade level) could easily abuse the "pushup" as a corrective training tool and it can become hazing/abuse.  An order to do pushups as a corrective measure is not unlawful; not following the order to do corrective actions is.  I've been in organizations where it actually became a morale function, others where it was like a "swear jar", and other where it was completely discouraged.  It all depends on how the entire chain of command tolerates and enforces rules of decency, respect, and uniform military discipline.<br>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 10:22 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:22:16 -0400

Dropping a Service member for 20-30 solves nothing. A long time ago, well that that long, you used to be able to "break" an individual to the point where they could do no more. If you do it right, it will teach a lesson. That lesson might be one of the most important lessons you'll ever get.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 12:20 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:58 -0400

We are supposed to be held to a higher standard of discipline, execution and performance being in the Military. Yet, it seems like the "standards" these days actually TAKE AWAY from that. There was a strong line between pushing paper & pushing weight. We're all pushing the same thing now.... what's so wrong with "Drop...get up...correct yourself"....everyones so scared to make someone sweat a little.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 3:32 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:32:33 -0400

If someone is going to whine about having to do push-ups then get out of the military. Don't take up someone else's spot who can handle what you obviously can't.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 25 at 2014 7:12 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:12:45 -0400

In boot camp, It was part of the program and no it was not hazing it was making physically fit sailors but that was the last time except maybe "Crossing the Line".

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 9:00 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:00:09 -0400

no it is call a constructive discipline. excessive pushups are.

Response by SFC Nick Freitas made Mar 25 at 2014 10:39 PM

SFC Nick Freitas — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:39:42 -0400

I have only been out for 4 years...I am shocked that this is a real question. <div><br></div><div>Sorry, not trying to be flippant, but it is somewhat shocking to me that this would be a concern.  </div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2014 9:54 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:54:37 -0500

I think forcing anyone to wear tighty tannies is humilitating and degrading.

Response by SGT William Conyers made Feb 18 at 2015 2:28 AM

SGT William Conyers — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 02:28:12 -0500

PT is good for you

Response by SSgt Michael Orcutt made May 6 at 2015 12:04 AM

SSgt Michael Orcutt — Wed, 06 May 2015 00:04:00 -0400

It is in the Air Force. I actually started a thread on weather or not it should be considered hazing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 12:35 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 00:35:48 -0400

Reading these responses is pathetic. People wonder why the Army is becoming so weak....I think this post and all the responses pretty much sums it up.

Since when should an NCO even have to question this? I question it myself....and guess what, just go the paperwork route now days.

Joe has all the power these days.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 12:50 AM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 00:50:48 -0400

According to FM 7-22 Push-Ups is one of ten authorized excersises that may be utilized for correction. However, these may not exceed ten repetitions or 1 minute, which ever may come first, per deficiency that the corrective action warrants!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 1:37 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 01:37:09 -0400

When applied at the right time no it is not. If it is that leader's (NCO, personally I don't think officers have any place dropping Soldiers) only means of correcting Soldiers then that leader needs some serious mentorship and development. If that leader brags about how often he/she drops and smokes their Soldiers then I would consider that crossing into the realm of hazing.

If the leader can concisely state why the Soldier(s) are pushing/front back go/static hold etc and it passes the reasonable person test then I don't think its hazing.

I have "smoked" a total of 3 Soldiers in my 17 years (14 of which I was a leader). each one of those still stands out in my head because I feel like I failed them as much as they failed me and I had to resort to a last resort prior to administrative discipline. On the other hand each of those sessions fixed the attitude/actions that caused it, so *shrug*

Unfortunately there are too many junior leaders who have not had good mentorship and development through their careers. This lack is filled by those junior leaders by what they see in movies and websites like this and what they think they should do.

Response by CW3 Craig Linghor made May 6 at 2015 4:39 AM

CW3 Craig Linghor — Wed, 06 May 2015 04:39:07 -0400

Not if the commander publishes a policy. However, if you do something stupid you should just get down and beat your face on your own.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 11:32 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 11:32:15 -0400

Delivered

Physical Corrective Training

AR 600-20 paragraph 4-6:

Corrective training must be related to the offense, oriented to improve the substandard performance, Can be after hours, can only be implemented until the deficiency is corrected.

AR 600-20 paragraph 4-20:

When authorized by the chain of command and when not unnecessarily cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful, the following do not constitute hazing: administrative corrective measures including a reasonable number of repetitions of authorized physical exercises.

FM 7-22:

Corrective training is often used incorrectly resulting in over training or overuse injuries. These sessions are not smoke sessions. Authorized exercises include: Rower, Squat Bender, Windmill, Prone Row, Push up, V-up, Leg Tuck and Twist, Supine Bike, Swimmer, 8 Count Push up. Only these exercises may be selected. The number of repetitions should not exceed 5.

- SSG Geronimo

Response by SPC Chad Kolod made May 6 at 2015 9:17 PM

SPC Chad Kolod — Wed, 06 May 2015 21:17:25 -0400

If it is being used as a corrective action, it must fit the situation. Why would you drop someone for push-ups if they were late for work? Maybe make them come in early for the next week. Or even better counsel the soldier constructively in an attempt to get to the root of the problem. PT'ing soldiers is a lazy NCO who is out of good ideas. In general dropping a soldier is something that ends after basic. Too me it is a demonstration of power. Unless the soldier is on the verge of busting tape or has busted tape and you are trying to help them. But, then why wouldn't you help them develop a PT plan or meal plan and encourage them. For every soldier who is dropped in an active duty unit, there is a corrective action that would have better fit the situation.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 6 at 2015 9:57 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 06 May 2015 21:57:09 -0400

I had happy soldiers. They would do the push ups and laugh. Maybe I should have been meaner.

Response by SGT Erik Plumlee made May 18 at 2015 4:39 PM

SGT Erik Plumlee — Mon, 18 May 2015 16:39:14 -0400

Not if you drop with them. After all, it is YOUR fault if your soldiers dont know how to act.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 18 at 2015 4:49 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 18 May 2015 16:49:34 -0400

Alexander the great is snickering in heaven.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 5:38 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 May 2015 05:38:49 -0400

I think I posted this before but we are still having personal opinions on the matter... As leaders we must adapt to the new Military, new leaders, new guidelines... The world changes people, let go of the past and let's deal with it professionally... Please see below...

Physical Corrective Training

AR 600-20 paragraph 4-6:

Corrective training must be related to the offense, oriented to improve the substandard performance, Can be after hours, can only be implemented until the deficiency is corrected.

AR 600-20 paragraph 4-20:

When authorized by the chain of command and when not unnecessarily cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful, the following do not constitute hazing: administrative corrective measures including a reasonable number of repetitions of authorized physical exercises.

FM 7-22:

Corrective training is often used incorrectly resulting in over training or overuse injuries. These sessions are not smoke sessions. Authorized exercises include: Rower, Squat Bender, Windmill, Prone Row, Push up, V-up, Leg Tuck and Twist, Supine Bike, Swimmer, 8 Count Push up. Only these exercises may be selected. The number of repetitions should not exceed 5.

Response by CPL Steve Finch made May 24 at 2015 5:41 AM

CPL Steve Finch — Sun, 24 May 2015 05:41:23 -0400

Hell no. It's motivation or correctional its fundamental to our way of life, respect of superiors and having your shit squared away.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 6:05 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 May 2015 06:05:10 -0400

Push-ups don't fix everything either though... The corrective training should meet the deficiency... As a cook, if a Soldier cooks a product wrong, and I make him/her do push-ups it fixes nothing. Next time they cook the product it's going to be messed up again. I did nothing to help them. I personally don't make Soldiers drop, again, it MAY POSSIBLY make them a PT stud, but it fixes nothing... Corrective training, meaning to fix the problem, not throw push ups at the problem... Only possible thing push-ups can fix is PT deficiencies and discipline if applied correctly...

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Dec 25 at 2017 12:08 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Mon, 25 Dec 2017 12:08:49 -0500

Oh geez... no one gonna know you hit them on except you, unless you Rhine about it! So get your BDUs or whatever on and get your keister to your assigned
AO get soldiering ! Oh yes, have a very
Merry 2017 Christmas !

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Dec 25 at 2017 12:11 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Mon, 25 Dec 2017 12:11:17 -0500

Oh yeah... be glad they’re not Pink (unless one is of the opposite gender[s])!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 25 at 2017 12:43 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 25 Dec 2017 12:43:39 -0500

Only if you think correcting something that is wrong as harrassment

Response by PO3 David Greeley made Dec 25 at 2017 1:30 PM

PO3 David Greeley — Mon, 25 Dec 2017 13:30:01 -0500

No, unless the soldier is singled out because of reasons than military discipline, training or unit cohesion.

Response by TSgt David L. made Dec 25 at 2017 2:10 PM

TSgt David L. — Mon, 25 Dec 2017 14:10:57 -0500

My #1 son is 11B at Ft Campbell. I don't think a day passes without their platoon being dropped for something. Hazing? Nah, in-necessary for every day motivation, nope there as well.
But seriously, He is strong! LOL

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 11:28 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:28:08 -0500

Doing it for entertainment is wrong but utilizing it for corrective action in the right time and place is good. Along with additional duties such as cutting grass with scissors or moving a sand pile back and forth. I can count on one hand how many times I have done any of these in 18 years, because like I said there is a time and place for this to happen. Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 11:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:33:29 -0500

If you make them do more than five...I believe that's the limit on corrective training using physical exercise. 5-10 reps of each exercise.

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Dec 27 at 2017 4:22 PM

SP5 Gary Smith — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:22:43 -0500

If it is, we will never win another war.

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 27 at 2017 4:35 PM

SPC David Willis — Wed, 27 Dec 2017 16:35:31 -0500

If its for no reason I would call it hazing, but I would also say it should still be done. I used to get my balls smoked for no reason at all and I turned out ok.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2017 1:52 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 01:52:15 -0500

No. That's it. Don't read into it. The answer is no.

Response by SFC Denver Druesedow made May 24 at 2018 7:26 PM

SFC Denver Druesedow — Thu, 24 May 2018 19:26:17 -0400

As a senior NCO I would drop soldiers for infractions but they would have to do pushups until I got tired doing pushups with them.

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made May 24 at 2018 7:39 PM

SFC Christopher Taggart — Thu, 24 May 2018 19:39:33 -0400

nope!...not unless you do it, to embarrass someone. what's the worse that can happen by doing push ups?...he'll get a better score on the PT test.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 24 at 2018 7:45 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 24 May 2018 19:45:15 -0400

What? I always considered it a quick, painless corrective action. You consider it hazing, then just go ahead with the UCMJ action, and fry them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2019 4:43 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jan 2019 16:43:49 -0500

Response by SGT Reed Webber made Jan 27 at 2019 10:38 PM

SGT Reed Webber — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 22:38:00 -0500

Holy CRAP!! WTH has our once powerful, dedicated, loyal, patriotic Military become? Hazing? OMG...it is simply remedial PT!

I love this site but the more I see and read the questions in here, the more I believe that our country has raised nothing more than whiney pussies!

Response by SPC Brian Neidert made May 15 at 2019 8:38 PM

SPC Brian Neidert — Wed, 15 May 2019 20:38:11 -0400

Is this really a question? Soft a$! Nancies! This is exactly what's wrong these days! Grow up!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2019 6:06 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 18:06:15 -0400

Simple answer, no.

Response by SGT Bonnie B. made Jun 28 at 2019 6:37 PM

SGT Bonnie B. — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 18:37:16 -0400

Ah hell no - builds strength and character especially diamond push ups

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2019 12:14 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 00:14:28 -0400

This isn’t really an answer, but I’m new to the army and i hate the lack of discipline and the weak mindset of the army. I was told stories by my grandfathers and uncles who served and it’s nothing like i expected.

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Apr 12 at 2020 10:36 PM

SFC Steven Hetletvedt — Sun, 12 Apr 2020 22:36:55 -0400

HELL NO!!!!!

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Apr 12 at 2020 10:37 PM

SFC Steven Hetletvedt — Sun, 12 Apr 2020 22:37:22 -0400

Drop and go it with them.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jul 14 at 2020 11:31 AM

SPC Brian Stephens — Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:31:16 -0400

In a way, but not really. Pushups improve you in the long run by making you stronger and faster.

Response by SPC Anitra Bailey-Bearfield made Sep 25 at 2020 1:40 PM

SPC Anitra Bailey-Bearfield — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 13:40:53 -0400

No it is was called corrective action when I was in because if you get dropped enough you will learn to followv the rules.

Response by SGM Marie Carmelle Lerouge made Sep 28 at 2020 9:31 AM

SGM Marie Carmelle Lerouge — Mon, 28 Sep 2020 09:31:30 -0400

My views are NO. I had a nephew in basic training complaining about his DS dropping him for pushups. My reply to him was the DS was preparing him for the final PT test. The more you do, the better you will be when it comes time to take the final test for graduation. After graduation, he told me “Auntie you were right”.

Response by SSG Jess Peters made Dec 3 at 2020 4:16 PM

SSG Jess Peters — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:16:09 -0500

No. It's just extra training.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2020 5:09 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 17:09:52 -0500

If you are doing it to break a soldier or handing out unnecessary punishments that don't fit the crime, then I would say that. However, I would rather see a soldier get "corrective training" then see some paperwork that might tarnish or damage their career. But then again, what kind of soldier are you working with and if they are willing to improve themselves for the better. At some point, yes, paperwork might have to be the way, but I think of it as a last resort. Also corrective training should be done away from their peers. Its between you and that soldier, nobody else. Explain to them what they did wrong. I had a NCO who was told to smoke me when he and I know I didn't do anything wrong with following regulations and orders. Yet, he still did the PT with me. That is great leadership on his part. That is just my two cents as to how I would do it.

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Dec 3 at 2020 7:03 PM

Cpl Vic Burk — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 19:03:21 -0500

I think I would call it discipline conditioning. I would try that first. If they don't want to do the push ups, well there is office hours. Losing some of your paycheck (plus anything else the CO puts into the punishment) hurts more than a push up! Office hours has longer consequences, like stopping promotions so remind them of that as well.

Response by Maj John Bell made Dec 3 at 2020 8:16 PM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 20:16:05 -0500

As an officer I never thrashed a Marine. I generally did not get involved in discipline of enlisted Marines unless it was going to be "official" (Page 11 entry, NJP or a court-martial). I knew some Lieutenants did. That said, I'm pretty sure I knew what was going on. Occasionally I became aware of situations where young Marines were being thrashed for entertainment purposes, rather than disciplinary purposes. In those cases where it was for entertainment, yes it is definitely hazing.

In those cases I generally let the senior SNCO at my level in the chain-of-command know what I saw, and how I felt about it. Then it was no longer a problem.

Response by SGT Brad Baier made Dec 3 at 2020 9:19 PM

SGT Brad Baier — Thu, 03 Dec 2020 21:19:00 -0500

My company got dropped on AIT graduation day in our dress Greens in the dust of Fort Leonard Wood. We were a mess after that. Damn I was in shape though. 85 correct pushups in 2 Minutes or less was an easy feet. The running for my short legs was another story.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2020 10:29 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2020 10:29:22 -0500

Not at all. It's jour job to train. There are limits, but also better ways to motivate. We sometimes offered a choice, sandbags or a sling blade all day, or a quick burnout. Beat the clock was fun - one minute to do x or y number of exercises or reps. Otherwise it should be as a unit, with you leading PT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2020 5:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Dec 2020 17:02:15 -0500

Are you crazy?