Is it a good or bad idea to enlist with a STEM degree, rather than waiting for OCS?

2019-05-22T13:28:47-04:00

original post below
update:
It's been around 1 year, making a update on request and personal obligation. I opted not to pursue joining the airforce after the few month of passing tests and the signing date at MEPs. If you are like me and viewed this post for insight, here's what I learned after not doing it nearly a year or so ago:
- you can't just decide after a few months or a year that you don't like the direction things are headed
- if you find you just want to try a new lifestyle, trust me, you can get fit and do so more easily while free
- enlisting before you potentially go to OCS is 'not' honorable, a way to gain experience, etc., instead many finish enlistment and then applied successfully to OCS as civilian; you can talk and/or look up frequency of this happening online, and find thru the years it is actually what happens.
- enlistment to OCS is a trick or based on not really knowing: you will in most cases be used for the duration of contract, and then realize the above, so it's not some temporary/experience gain transition
- joining any military branch is not a great option for what I wanted and where I was, OCS looked great, air-force good way to help them out and improve fitness, but you'll find the government and people are all the same; if you feel people slow you down, disagree with leadership, ever felt you were too efficient, faster, smarter, and that sort of thing actually happened in the real world, guess what, whatever you have will likely get worse in the military, you should not join just for that reason.
- fitness, comradery, new sense of purpose, was what I was looking for: again, it's easier without joining any outdated lock-in contract that you can't get out of.. once you start one, the other stuff comes, then you find you either don't want it, or whatever
- if you are anything like I was, trust me, emotions and feelings are temporary. you'll get started somewhere. being considered as a possible candidate that can get a slot at OCS, going in, seems great, but it's for different type of people. give it time, restart your fitness routine, etc.. the military is not going to buff you or make you better than you can by your own, especially if you are/were like me, disapproving of professors, disapproving of general education, do stuff in 1 day then free time for long time, and other factors

and finally, don't let it dissuade you if you are joining, but if you have managed to get STEM, you've already shown you make adult decisions, work hard temporarily for better gains later on, and passed through the first wave of bad things thrown at you.

As for the rest of my experience (opinion/optional):
if you haven't experienced the suck (as infantry say), then you should probably think out what you'll be doing in the military. try running with 40lbs for a mile, it's not as easy as it sounds whether you can do it the first time or not. maybe you went to the DMV and had a bad experience. try going to MEPs. half an hour late due to traffic? need to take some '1990s entry tests? too bad, the slots are available, but go home and reschedule. On the big 'shipout' day: you can be early to arrive as I was, not the first to start any stations, finish it all early, then sit around and wait around 2-3 hours for the rest of them (mainly tricked highschool kids probably in for a ride if they do join) and doctor to arrive, and it was almost like a joke experience. You start to realize it's all the same. You can encounter a highly efficient group, but just because it's under the government label, it doesn't mean you'll find great people and great efficiency all around you; more likely you'll have some weird experiences, just like at a DMV or any other brief exposure with the government. I am sure they can get their act together, and not have someone waiting around for hours for a posture test, but wow, the highlight of many hours wasted at MEPs that morning was that the airforce Lt. was smoking hot and the instructor Sgt was cute. ASVAB is designed for like right out of highschool, scoring high on it and being applauded is just a joke to feel good. Realize you're still going to be doing what that sales major or highschool whatever next to you is doing. If you are at all like me, where even going to college seemed somewhat of a childish experience at times, and never challenged me much, trust me, same people and same things will happen in the military, but you can't just 'walk away' from the nonsense once you are in. Note that I am not 18, deciding if military will be a benefit, far less experienced, a bit brainwashed about what the military will be like the reinforced idea you grow up with about the government being highly efficient and military being like the videos; obviously that is mostly a scam. If you're a vet you know this, or you cover it up with an idea of honor so you don't even joke about it. When you actually get there, I won't underestimate you, you will realize how it is, even at the beginning/entry stages.. be ready for a strict-highschool type of environment. Even if you've become good at what you do, faster, efficient, specialized, you are just another meatslab for the government, military, agency, that's putting you through processing: you're simply to be on time at all times and do things that are dangerous, inefficient, slow, and ridiculous, because you are told to do so. I had a perfect attendance one year - in highschool, probably didn't matter at all. I dislike offices, the idea of being managed, and in general, avoid anyone who tries to impose that the arrival time is somehow related to your performance .. it all seems like some childish thing you used to adhere to in highschool or before. thus, you'll find more time than not, even OCS has a lot of 'rich parent' types who chose to major in generic business or sales. there's lots of enlisted people from highschool, wish them the best & hope they use the resources in the military to better themselves. yet, rather than the idea of like hiring STEM engineers, getting pilots, mixing in some good leaders with the cocky ones etc.. the same problems in the real world are present in the military and anywhere else you go. No shadowy government efficiency there, it's mainly just people following protocol. the problem of some individuals just trying harder and working more for no reason vs some real skills flying under the radar, is a problem of the western style recruitment model. So, it's their loss if they get someone who seems to be have good work ethic, but is 3x slower, and suggest the model works 'most of the time' and/or get all bitter and pissy about skillful people not caring being a real thing. If you have STEM, I would say weigh your options before you even go into OCS, and then don't waste their time either, be certain 100% you are going to want to do it before you even call and potentially get a slot to begin the process. I was just in a tough time, bored, a lot of other emotions and other crap last year, so, again, if any of this sounds like you, think it out first. Maybe you'll start a career or something will happen a week later that starts you on a different path.
If you've worked with things you disagree with, just read this and realize, it's not all just a bunch of pretty girls and easy time. There's felons, jocks, tryhards, same types of people anyway, but obviously more physical roles.

original post:
I am currently 25 w/ a STEM degree in the Computer Sciences. I guess I'm yet another one of those people who are unsure what they want to do in their life moving forward. I am going through the enlistment process (air force); if I don't want to go, I just won't join DEPs or I won't go on the shipping date, but that's my last choice. I am a bit worried about committing when I get mixed input about enlistment not being for college grads and others saying I'll probably have fun and get away from life for a bit.

Anyway, I was wondering if someone can tell me more about the OCS from civilian process. The recruiter told me that I should contact him in a few months.

Do you think it would be worth it for me to even try with only a 4 year degree, and is anyone w/ experience able to talk about the applicant process?

I've been living as a civilian too long and so far my experiences with getting the requirements for enlistment done have involved mostly 18 yr olds going into service (and a few others of all age-groups). It does feel a bit fun, like fun I haven't had in a couple of years, but it feels a bit like I am going backwards, and I should maybe just "get a life" again in the civilian world (which is kinda hard to me imo, after working a year 9 to 5 jobs and just leaving recently).

I'd rather be treated with a bit more respect and get a bit of credit for doing what I've alredy done, so OCS seems like a route I'd be interested in. If I were 18, thinking in this way, I'd just do the opposite and enlist.

I have heard it's going to take 1 to 2 years to even get considered with all the applicants who are interested. So if I were to enlist in the mean time, it seems like it's true that I might not gain anything from it, other than some physical fitness perks which I might end up not liking anyway. I have 90 in the Asvab and I got my physical done, but I failed the duck-walk (lol).. I am considering contacting my recruiter again and rescheduling to get it done. I'll only have a month or maybe 5 weeks at best to decide to enlist, if or after I swear in to DEPs (as I mentioned).

So is OCS a viable route from the civilian world, or is it too competitive, and is it worth enlisting in a branch like the Navy or Airforce to I guess just "have some fun", even knowing OCS might never contact you? (Personally, I am not really thinking of joining just to have some extra $ so..)

From what you see I might be too lazy to be in the military and be pushed around about what clothes I am wearing and all the other rules. (lol, did that in highschool already so..) Doing some research it seems that telling people to enlist to do OCS because it'll take like so many years is probably a recruitment scam, because most would want to go into OCS if they pre-qualify, and you can enlist first to help pay for the college degree anyway (but I already have that).

Edit:
I didn't get a lot of direct Y/N answers for the main question, but I've determined enlisting first overall does not really help an individual's chances. You will need approval from your NCOs once enlisted. So even if you can get through the forms, recommendations, and even get accepted after that (which might not even happen at all), it just seems that you will be much busier and unable to focus much on applying to OCS; and then you might not even get accepted. Based on what I've already talked about and researched, I've noticed a lot of people who chose to go that route end up finishing up their contract and then re-applying as an officer (as a civilian). Very few seem to actually get pulled into OCS while they're still finishing their enlistment contract.

It is ideal to think you can enlist and then be sent off to officer school after 2 or 3 years, gaining the experience, and so on, then transitioning into the program. It also seems more honorable, will help you gain experience, and become a better leader. Although after seeing some of how the govt actually functions, I think it's a high chance the whole process would just end up being inefficient, and those in charge would just follow the existing rules and milk the contract time out. I am still considering both options, but I am a bit less interested in enlisting at the moment. Going to make sure I have the tests all done, and then consider it. I am not sure enlisting is for me even though it's always an option on the table. Thanks for the other insight and responses.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made May 22 at 2019 1:39 PM

2019-05-22T13:39:07-04:00

You need to correct your last name if you want to post on the boards. We do not allow members to use fake names or only initials as a means of hiding their identity.

http://support.rallypoint.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1311927-how-do-i-change-my-name-?b_id=4766

How do I change my name?

NOTE:RallyPoint requires our members to use their real names. Aliases, initials, joint names, email addresses, business...

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 22 at 2019 1:42 PM

2019-05-22T13:42:44-04:00

In the Army they take some folks off the streets to allow them to go OCS. I enlisted and went OCS.

Response by MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect made May 22 at 2019 1:47 PM

2019-05-22T13:47:27-04:00

"I'd rather be treated with a bit more respect and get a bit of credit for doing what I've alredy done"
You are already failing with this statement. Respect is earned in the military. Your degree will get you none. Humility is a huge trait in being an officer and learning to be a leader. In the military, you start at the bottom in everything and work your way up. You don't just come in barking orders at privates and walking around like you are in charge. You have to learn to obey commands and understand why you have to obey them. You also have to understand Rank doesn't imply authority. Ask any LT who tried to give orders to an E8. It's hilarious.
My recommendation? Yes, go enlisted, Army of course, but any of the other services are fine, try for one of the computer MOS's you would be interested in. Get a Top Secret Clearance. Get to the Rank of E5 and possibly E6. Then you will have some experience. Then apply to OCS. Then and only then, you may be possibly ready/worthy to command and lead soldiers. Good luck.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2019 4:03 PM

2019-05-22T16:03:00-04:00

Don't enlist. Apply for OCS right out of the gate. Do not wait or you will end up like me!

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 22 at 2019 7:37 PM

2019-05-22T19:37:35-04:00

I've been exactly where you wanna go, I was Army ROTC, couldn't finish, managed to get USAF OTS, if I hadnt, I'd have gone Navy nuc enlisted the next day, and tried for Navy OCS and NUPOC once in...here's the thing, OK?.you need to elaborate, first of all, specific course titles, not generalities, grades, GPAS, externships, internships, civilian relared work you've done, so far as you can explain, hobbies, reading tastes, interests, sports esp martial arts if any...I've seems Dna applied for just about everything, and you have many misconceptions, I think, which are typical....go into if you've considered grad level, cause the moment you go warrant or commissioned, you're expected to do a master's part time, as well as prof mil Eric (PME) coursework from day one, trust me, been there, done that (BTDT)...tell me about operating systems, compilers, data structures, solid state, numerical methods, algorithm design, I don't wanna hear about Microsoft or other certifications, I wanna hear about you prepping for the FE/EIT exam for the PE license, eventually, cause that's real, that counts...now, at the same time, so you want cyber stuff? would you want Navy warrant cyber? Army direct commission cyber? USCG direct commission engineer, CS might be suitable for that...how much specific math has you done? Calc differential and integral? do you recall it all verbatim? Differential equations? Linear algebra? Complex variables? Modern algebra? Group theory? Switching and automata theory? Which programming langjages, though I do NOT focus on those, it's just help to know, OK? Python? Ruby on Rails? MATLAB? Java? FORTRAN, yeah it's still used...C? C++? C#? Assembly languages? Microcontroller aspects? Voice me hard specifics, and I can suggest stuff for you...have you published? Have you been involved with IEEE and/or ACM student chapters at all! worked summer's at engineering groups? If so, what level? Any supervisory stuff at all? There the kind of stuff I need...and stop thinking about money for now...did you put in for assistanstships? Fellowships? did you take the FEE fell and/or subject tests yet? If so, what are scores and/or percentiles? What level.of recommends have you gotten this far? Any ROTC exposure this far?.if so, which svc? What level or years? Do is you look at USMC platoon leaders course (PLC), less well known than ROTCs? Would you want to do an ROTC or USMC PLC at grad level? What flight interests do you have as either pilot or navigator at all? Which svcs have you looked at seriously, incl NOAA Corps.and USPHS, the latter does use CS and IT, though less so than clinical fjelds, look at USPHS Jr and Sr COSTEP, OK? If you're not in yet, I'd definitely do minimum masters first, PhD possibly, if you can, esp if your GPA could get you an assistantship or fellowship, possibly also Rhodes scholar, look at it as well...read about USAF A FIT and Naval Postgrad School (NPS), all warrants and commissioned can apply, as well as senior NCOs, few look at them, regardless of which svc you're in...look at the flight test engineer (FTE) and flight test navigator (FTN) programs, not just test pilot...you're not looking at the right things, there's nowhere you wanna go I haven't been, I was elec engrg (EE) 4 yrs active, in totally the wrong slot, precisely because I was impulsive, jumped.at the first chance, and totally collided it all up...I was at three companies as an WE 7 yrs more after that, then went back and did more grad school, I have a BSEE, BS(Math), MSEE, MS(Physics), MS(Math), clinical allied health doctorate, seven yrs of residency of which I finished six before having to go total perm disabled, I have an inactive PE.license and allied health doctoral license, also inactive...I've seen and done just about everything you could possibly seek to do or be exposed to, give me enough details, and I'll suggest stuff for you, OK? My object isn't to overwhelm, I have an interest in career/educ stuff, my object is to teach you the right way to go about this, so, help me help you by giving me the level.of detail I need, get as technical as you can, specifics, OK? The more you give me, as well as others on here, the more we can all help you, OK? I'm here if you wanna yak, no rush, whenever you want, so a really detailed, thorough biosketch, take your time, and don't rush, OK? I'm here whenever you'd wanna chat, as I'd said, OK?

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 22 at 2019 7:39 PM

2019-05-22T19:39:04-04:00

http://www.ocsfoundation.org

And when I was at USAF OTS, prior enlisted guys did have an easier time adjusting, certainly...I'm not saying to go that way, I'm merely explaining that aspect, purely for perslective, OK?

OCS Foundation

SERVICES FOR: Candidates Alumni Officer Families

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 22 at 2019 7:51 PM

2019-05-22T19:51:12-04:00

And remember, I assure tiu, I've been virtually everywhere you wanna go, I've been through it all, up, dkwn, left, right, upside down, inside out, and sideways...if it walks, crawls, talks, or flies, I've applied for it, interviewed for it, worked with it, served with it...and you need to realize, you wouldn't just be under active duty, you'd be under civil service also, I was you would be also, you'll also have additional.duties, charity drives, Boy Scouts, Civil Air Patrol (CAP), I got tapped to look into a car accident about a junior enlisted guy once, I found it wasn't his fault, I was the rep for my unit to the Company Grade Officers Council (CGOC).I had to spend a day with my base commander, I once sat with my unit CO after he gave me a plaque for helping with a good IG ratjng, he basically had me under a microscope for a solid hour exploring my motivations, I left the room a limp dishrag, he's been awarded a SEC and flew.400+ combat missions in Vietnam...I've met two Apollo astronauts, had to help with suggesting stuff for my semiannual ratings, you would also, I assure you...my next younger brother was USMMMA Kings Point, I commissioned him USNR...I've had family and friends in all svcs, my best friend in USAF was VMI, I've been around, OK? That's why the more specifics you give me, the more I might be able to help you...you need to understand that, in a svc, you don't control life, life controls you, OK? you can't plan it, and even when you try, it takes on a .life all.it's own, I assure you...so, reflect on that, and give me the detail I ask fkr, and ill try to help you...doing this takes time, care, planning, and even then, it rarely turns out the way you exlect, I'm not saying to not do it, I recognize your ambition, I can't begin to tell you how many times I screwed up, how many times I was screamed at, how many all nighters I pulled running software in my office, only to be called an idiot the next morning...that's reality as an EE.or VS in a svc, I know, I did it all, OK? So, trust me, and lemme help you the right way, as I said, OK?

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made May 22 at 2019 9:04 PM

2019-05-22T21:04:51-04:00

Depends on what the AFOQT says would be your best career choices, and yes with a STEM degree I am steering you to the Air Force. If the career fields you qualify for interest you, talk to an AF recruiter and go the OCS route. Sorry Army and Marines, but if you went into those services as enlisted you would be bored to death.

Response by LTC Orlando Illi made May 22 at 2019 10:11 PM

2019-05-22T22:11:55-04:00

OCS is a crucible. You ARE NOT guarenteed to graduate. You earn respect - it is not given just because you have a STEM degree. As an aside - I was a College OP in OCS and I was behind the proverbial 8 ball from day 1. But I watched and learned and perservered and am now in the OCS Hall of Fame (Class of 2019). If you think you are ready - then go for it. But remember one thing "... duty is the absence of self..." If you do not understand this - then you will not make it through OCS

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2019 11:43 AM

2019-05-23T11:43:06-04:00

If the end goal is to be an officer then complete an officer producing program. Being enlisted first isn’t necessary, and while you will learn quite a bit enlisted, in a sense you’d be wasting time. I did 6 years enlisted before joining ROTC.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2019 6:17 PM

2019-05-23T18:17:32-04:00

Nobody cares what you've done in the past if you decide to go the OCS route. The military cares about what you can do and not so much about what you have done. Why not Army OCS?

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2019 7:25 PM

2019-05-23T19:25:42-04:00

I was enlisted for 7 years before commissioning. I had a math degree while enlisted. The degree might get some folks to nod their heads or compliment you for being smart, but respect is earned (and that's the way it should be). While the enlisted folks might respect the rank you wear if you go the O route, they will only respect you if you earn it.

I don't regret my enlisted time, but if you have the chance to go to come in as an officer, do it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2019 11:57 PM

2019-05-26T23:57:25-04:00

You could go to ROTC under the national scholarship and get your masters degree or enlist in the NG and them go SMP to get your masters degree. I would talk to the local universities ROO.