Is it acceptable for a separated soldier to bring a friend of the opposite sex to a military ball?

2015-01-06T22:34:21-05:00

Exactly as the title says, what are your professional opinions on a soldier who is legally separated from his/her spouse but not fully divorced taking a friend of the opposite sex to a military ball if no relationship exists between the two individuals? What are the perceptions and how would you confront the soldier if you did find it to be a problem?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 10:51 PM

2015-01-06T22:51:47-05:00

Good article linked, in other words don't do it until you have that piece of paper that says without a doubt you are divorced.

http://www.army.mil/article/61709/

Legal separation, adultery and the UCMJ

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 10:58 PM

2015-01-06T22:58:46-05:00

Welcome to the New World.
Perception is Reality.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 12:06 AM

2015-01-07T00:06:27-05:00

Not until divorce is finalized. Others will perceived that as you being the reason why the marriage is no more a marriage. Plus your subordinates may think it is correct to do it if their senior does it. Just my opinion.

Response by PO2 Frances Smart made Jan 7 at 2015 12:10 AM

2015-01-07T00:10:15-05:00

Unless they were having sex in full view of witnesses (which actually happened with two drunk members of my command once), I would proceed to mind my own business.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 12:34 AM

2015-01-07T00:34:17-05:00

BLUF: Perception will make this situation worse than it really is. However, having said that, this situation could have so many other details that others are bit aware of that would make it perfectly fine to bring a person of the opposite sex as their guest. What if that other person was the service member's sibling or cousin? While the perception from others who did not posses all the facts would be the service member is 'cheating', in actuality there would be nothing wrong. There really is no right or wrong answer here, but the best I can come up with right now is, that service member should introduce their guest to as many people as possible and in conversation make it clear this is a platonic friend who really wanted to experience the majesty of military ball.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Jan 7 at 2015 7:34 AM

2015-01-07T07:34:50-05:00

Sorry, but I call BS on the whole perception is reality. Reality is reality! I was in a foreign country co-located with the Air Force. I spoke some of the local language, enough to get by, and I made the announcement to some friends that I was going downtown the next day to get lunch and do some browsing in the open-air flea market. Some friends wanted to go and a female AF Ssgt (we'll call her Jane) also asked to come along. When we met up the next day to get on the bus, the others bailed, but Jane was there. So, we went to the flea market, bought some things, and had lunch. She saw someone from her office and chatted with them while I placed our orders. The next day, Jane comes to me and says she got written up for being with a married man. Jane is single. I knew her supervisor, so I went to speak with him directly about this matter. He gave me the "perception is reality" speech, and I called BS! Finally, I told him that he needed to be chaptered out of the AF for being openly homosexual (this took place before the repeal of DADT). He asked what I was talking about, so I explained that I would see him and another single, male Airman hanging out on the weekends, even getting hotel rooms. I perceived that both were engaged in a homosexual relationship and that both needed to be chaptered immediately. He claimed he and the other Airman were getting rooms for their "local honies" (his words, not mine). I said it didn't matter, since "perception is reality", and I had witnesses to corroborate my story. Before I left his office Jane's counseling was destroyed and no more said about the matter.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 7 at 2015 8:13 AM

2015-01-07T08:13:08-05:00

In my opinion the question is open ended in that it does not provide enough details to make a clear decision. Yes perception is that the "couple" may be having a sexual relationship, they could be platonic friends and may even be support to each other. So before you go off the reservation gather the facts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 8:19 AM

2015-01-07T08:19:16-05:00

Nothing legally wrong with it....but I wouldn't suggest it. It gives the wrong impression and will fuel the rumor mill. I saw someone already said "perception is reality" and they are 100% correct. It may be totally innocent, but from the outside looking in it would appear to be more than it is. So unless the person wants extra negative attention I would suggest they don't do it.

Response by CPT Brian Kent, PhD made Jan 7 at 2015 8:22 AM

2015-01-07T08:22:33-05:00

Good question unfortunately u cm and state law don't always work together and you are caught in the middle. I had a good friend who got caught up in an extended divorce proceeding lasting well over a year. Several months after they were legally separated in the state (not yet divorced) he met another you lady who he started dating and she fell madly over him. After several months he decided she was not the one for him and and decided they needed to part waus. She was very upset and reported him for adultery to the base and the command was caught in the middle but had to uphold UCMJ. So it is not just perception was your 6 with presentation

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 8:33 AM

2015-01-07T08:33:41-05:00

You know, my experience with "perception is reality" is that it is highly corrupted and is basically a tool for confirmation bias. And it hardly ever works both ways. It's normally from the top down and seldom from the bottom up. For example, in my career, I've seen a 1SG try to give a male SGT (who is single) a memorandum of concern because he just so happened to be sleeping with a female SPC (who was also single and wasn't even in the same company). The 1SG didn't know for sure but still claimed perception is reality. Same SGT sees the same 1SG walking out of a female Soldier's room (of the same Company) at 0300. But perception being reality for some reason didn't work in that scenario.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 7 at 2015 8:57 AM

2015-01-07T08:57:50-05:00

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 10:17 AM

2015-01-07T10:17:29-05:00

All you regulation and fact checkers please back me here or let me know if I am wrong, but the Army does not recognize separation. You are either married, divorced, or not married. Perception will always haunt you regardless. Just do not set yourself up for anything. Wait until you either get back together or get divorced before attending with anyone or going at all.

Response by Sgt Jason West made Jan 7 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-01-07T14:06:10-05:00

I remember a situation where a married Marine who was seperated and going through a divorce (just wasn't final since NC requires 1 year seperation in most cases) and was told to not bring a date or he would be written up. Luckily the GySgt saying this didn't know he was already engaged to the girl he was planning on bringing to the Ball or he would have been charged without a doubt.

I know by regulations it is a violation, but it is one that needs to be changed. I have known several people that they split with their wives, the wife shacks up with somebody else and while they are going through the motions to get a divorce they can be charged for )the perception of) adultery even though the marriage is over and done with, the spouse is living with someone else but because of local laws it takes forever to get the divorce finalized. Complete BS if you ask me.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 2:21 PM

2015-01-07T14:21:40-05:00

Is it acceptable or is the right thing to do? In either case would depend on the person doing the evaluation of the situation. With UCMJ I think you might be splitting hairs on if it is chargeable or not. There not having sex on the dance floor just dancing. In the statement they are legally separated not yet divorced. Marriages fail it is a fact of life and so is love. Was it a smart idea to bring the girlfriend to the ball when you are still legally married, probably not. Perspective and perception many times judge character. But if the marriage is done, over no chance of saving. Does it really hurt anyone that this couple is at the ball. I personally wouldn't give it a second thought and let it spoil my evening.

Response by 1SG Pete Marcell made Jan 7 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-01-07T14:52:16-05:00

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Jan 7 at 2015 5:48 PM

2015-01-07T17:48:31-05:00

If they're not divorced then they're wrong. If there are kids involved and the spouse can prove it they lose the kids in court most times because that is considered adultery. If the court considers it adultery then the military will two fold. Unacceptable.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jan 7 at 2015 6:21 PM

2015-01-07T18:21:55-05:00

If the divorce is not complete, the Soldier is married. And, not sure if your fishing but it seems as though you might be leaning toward an assumption of adultery.

I don't care what the sex of the "friend" is, if it looks like an inappropriate relationship then that is what it looks like.

Now, just because you have a conversation with a person of the opposite sex, it sure don't mean your committing adultery however, I'd recommend against bringing a "friend" to a unit function. Best to keep yourself as an example bearer.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 7:42 PM

2015-01-07T19:42:07-05:00

It is entirely up to the commander. If he/she is ok with it then I'm ok with it. The reason being is that if the commander believes that it won't destroy good order and discipline then it's fine.

Nothing in AR 600-20 states that Soldiers cannot have a non-sexually related relationship. My best friend is a female and we hug and sit so close together sometimes. I'm sure a person who doesn't know us would perceive that we were together.

Perception is reality...to an extent! "I don't emplace ieds" but my hands have traces of HME on them.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jan 7 at 2015 8:50 PM

2015-01-07T20:50:17-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, you've read many persuasive arguments both pro and con and I won't repeat any of either. I would simply counsel against such a decision.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2015 9:48 PM

2015-01-07T21:48:43-05:00

Personally I believe that Army regs need to evolve into the modern era. Government as a whole needs to stay the hell out of private lives. Government has no business legislating morality. I don't have to agree or disagree with it, but it shouldn't be the commands business what any Servicemembers do on their own time. Again I'm not staying my personal beliefs as to the situation mentioned, just that I don't want the government prosecuting consenting adults as to their own legal (however immoral) actions. It technically isn't a crime. We have way more important issues than to butt into people's private lives. Just my .02

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Jan 8 at 2015 12:00 AM

2015-01-08T00:00:46-05:00

Perception is what comes to question here, if the member is separated but not divorced, there is a probability that the friend (giving the benefit of the doubt) will be looked at as more than a friend. While Adultry is extremely difficult to produce for UCMJ purposes, this is all an estranged spouse needs to take your butt through the grinder in divorce proceedings.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-01-08T15:49:24-05:00

perception is everything. whether something is going on or not, i wouldn't want the unnecessary attention.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2015 10:02 AM

2015-01-09T10:02:53-05:00

Perception is reality but at the same time do we want a Soldier who going through a divorce to attend a ball alone?? With all the steps we take with Suicide prevention could we assume that having them attend a ball where they are alone and there are lots of happy couples around to remind them of their impending loss? Could that be worse? I know their are single soldiers who attend balls...some bring significant others some don't. But do you question if their dates are married to someone else or just think "hey they have someone with them" it's a can of worms with multiple outcomes. If you know for a fact that they are simply friends then let it go...if anyone asks tell them you know they are just friends. Just my personal opinon but it doesn't make me right.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-01-11T10:25:05-05:00

I was legally separated from my first wife and still didn't go out on the scene until I was officially divorced. Even then I had help...since I was in Iraq just after it was finalized. Let's be frank here...no one on this site is a monk. Some are different shades of righteous, but let's come to grips with our own guilt locker and take stock. Some of us have a freak-flag a mile long that is rolled up nice and tight and stuffed in our back pocket, while others wave it freely. Don't judge lest you be judged kind of thing. If someone is legally separated, they have certain allowances under the law. I'd have to look it up specifically under federal statute, because I've never had an adultery case come before me where that was an issue. While I have seen the "perception is reality" case put out there, under the law that isn't acceptable. Evidence is. You could take your mom to the ball. That doesn't necessarily mean you two are going to bump uglies later that night. It's not a problem until it's a problem, but someone should probably talk with the person just to make sure they know the boundaries as spelled out under the actual law and not the court of public opinion.

Response by SPC Dave St.Andrew made Jan 12 at 2015 5:22 PM

2015-01-12T17:22:35-05:00

Sounds like High School drama, who cares who brings who to a ball? If they aren't openly engaging in illegal acts then it should be none of your business.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2015 12:04 PM

2015-01-14T12:04:11-05:00

SGT,
I would have told them not to put themselves in a situation where something could perceived by anyone outside the situation.
V/r
1SG Haro

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jan 14 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-01-14T13:02:44-05:00

NO and No and no again. I have seen this type of issue over 27 years again and again and it never works out for the best. The only way to dance with a woman at the ball that is not your civil recognized wife is if your wife is watching at the ball giving you the green light to dance, of course and her husband. While legal separation is a civil court action, the services do not equally recognize that and neither does finance. If you wish to represent the best professional appearance and ethics, go solo until legally divorced.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 3:23 AM

2015-04-29T03:23:03-04:00

Perception is a mother******! I would look at the overall intent. My buddy had a similar issue before our first deployment. He was going through the separation process, and our buddy had two friends from back home who he got to come down and go as our dates. Well, his intent was to get the girl into bed. Didn't go so well for him in the end. In some other cases, no one wants to go stag. I've got friends who, if I was ever in this situation, would never let it go beyond the threshold, nor would I make an effort to ruin the friendship. Like, I said, look at the overall intent.

Response by SSG Greg Rivera made Apr 30 at 2015 8:50 AM

2015-04-30T08:50:38-04:00

I hate the perception is reality! Bring them. If someone confronts you or the individual, set them straight. To much crap about being politically correct. If it becomes that big of a deal, screw them and never deal with them on a social basis again. You don't need to be a part of that ignorance.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 9:15 AM

2015-04-30T09:15:47-04:00

This would be very unwise on the part of the married (albeit separated) Soldier. Consider the risk/reward. What do they gain besides drawing unwanted attention?
Soldiers are tempting fate if they have a public relationship while still married already. Doing it in full view of senior leaders is a pretty sure way to get called on the carpet.
Consider why this UCMJ article even exists. If the conduct is disruptive, ie predjudicial to good order and discipline, than the commander can put the Soldier in question in check. The liklihood of this is too high to ignore.

Wait a few months for the divorce to be final. There will be another military ball.

Response by SSG Eric Trace made Apr 30 at 2015 11:14 AM

2015-04-30T11:14:01-04:00

Plain and simple "NO" according to the UCMJ Manual - all branches of service only recognizes " Married or Divorced ", I personally know of an E7 that brought a Friend of the opposite sex to a Ball and he was charged with Adultry, lost rank and retirement and was chaptered out. There is no room for error on this, UMCJ calls it is Adultry, period. I have no issue with it, but the UMCJ is the the law on this one.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 30 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-04-30T11:33:37-04:00

In all reality it shouldn't matter, but it does. People talk. You know the old tell ten people something in a line and the last one will tell you a complete different story. So it goes. If you've got the paper in hand, yes. If not, then explain to the other person. Maybe you two can go to the ball as individuals, dance together, not being exclusive. But until people can get the story right, the best thing is CYA!!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 12:18 PM

2015-04-30T12:18:22-04:00

This is yet another thing the military as a whole needs to modernize. Rules that were written so far back when we were far more uptight about sex than we are now. You really can't legally write anyone up on a perception anyways. I'd go to ADC and start a war.

The way I see it - if it isn't causing problems within the unit or with the mission, I could care less.

We had a Commander in Chief get a hummer and he LIED about it and he still went on to run this military. It's time to loosen up.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 30 at 2015 1:55 PM

2015-04-30T13:55:09-04:00

Love the topic. Most seem agreed the potential pain outweighs the benefits. I'm a keep your private life private and not display your transition game guy.

That said, the crowd can get pretty vicious. We had a CDR whose wife abandoned him, the kids, and took off to Eastern Europe with a boyfriend. After the divorce (uncontested of course) he eventually brought a girlfriend to the Ball. He wasn't treated too well by the piranhas, who took it upon themselves to "evaluate" her. That caused a breakup, which would have happened anyways, just sooner. He eventually remarried, is having a great life with grandkids, and NEVER goes to a Ball.

Besides the teaching of "Judge not lest ye be judged" which has much to do with our own failings, it also points to not over reacting. A couple of quiet words from the appropriate source is all that's warranted. We're just looking for a maturity improvement after all.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 2:31 PM

2015-04-30T14:31:36-04:00

To eliminate issues- make sure you're conduct with "friend" date is strictly platonic

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Apr 30 at 2015 5:30 PM

2015-04-30T17:30:11-04:00

I think the better question would be why do we guilt trip single personnel into going, when it is fairly obvious it is a couples event?

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Jun 8 at 2015 4:45 PM

2015-06-08T16:45:23-04:00

My opinion is that if someone is legally separated (and not just "on a break"), and if they attend the military ball with "a date" (meaning someone with whom they're not having an ongoing extramarital relationship), and without being overtly or covertly physical with their date, then the service member would be safe. It would take the most overbearing and strict Commander to go after a service member under these circumstances. And, even if they did, their case would be weak. I certainly wouldn't pursue charges against someone under these circumstances if I were in command.

The biggest issues are a) adultery and b) the perception of adultery. Adultery would be hard to prove simply off a date to a military ball. The absence of an ongoing extramarital relationship and the absence of physical affection at the ball would mitigate any perception of adultery. As a Commander, I would want my troops to attend, and I wouldn't want them to feel uncomfortable by going stag.

With that being said, a service member is pushing the envelope under these circumstances.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 4:48 PM

2015-06-08T16:48:02-04:00

There has to be some degree of logic in leadership. Yes, UCMJ prescribes that a service member is still bound to a spouse even if they are separated. But if you know this service member, know that the relationship is over, and know that the spouse is elsewhere due to the splits, then logically as a leader you should know a 'new date' doesn't constitute adultery. You shouldn't really pursue the legal issue.
With that said, UCMJ is still UCMJ. Rules are rules. Perceptions do play a part. And if the service member doesn't allow this situation to occur then no stones will be thrown in judgement.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-06-08T16:49:28-04:00

Yes I see no problem with it at all. I believe DOD regs need to change if you are separated you should be allowed. This is no longer the 1800's I see no issue with it.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 8 at 2015 5:10 PM

2015-06-08T17:10:07-04:00

I am of the minority opinion here....I think that it's perfectly alright. The army has gotten way too Puritan since it got the religion in the 80s.

If you're seperated, you're most likely on your way to a divorce.

Who says that you're intimate? Maybe you just wanted to dance, maybe she's just a friend.

Don't the Duggars keep the seed seperated?

This isn't the army that I joined in 66.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-06-08T17:18:12-04:00

If they're legally separated, they clearly intend on being divorced. Why should we care what they do with their personal relationships at that point?

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jun 8 at 2015 5:22 PM

2015-06-08T17:22:39-04:00

Regardless of right or wrong, one is able to make their own choices in life. I don't see it as a problem either way.

Response by A1C Nathan Fordahl made Jun 19 at 2015 4:09 PM

2015-06-19T16:09:31-04:00

Only response I have to this is..... Mind your own business, it's not your place to say anything about it.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Mar 21 at 2017 10:41 AM

2017-03-21T10:41:31-04:00

I think it would be generally acceptable for a soldier who is currently separated to bring any friend or their own child to a military ball SGT Private RallyPoint Member
I voted you up because somebody voted you down.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Mar 21 at 2017 4:13 PM

2017-03-21T16:13:32-04:00

The separated wife and separated servicemember will have mutual friends there. The servicemember is putting all their mutual friends in a bad spot and possibly the unit. I would advise against that.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2017 4:37 PM

2017-03-21T16:37:20-04:00

I'm saddened and shocked to see so many posts about "perception" and things like "better safe then sorry." If you'd assume someone is doing something wrong because of who they choose to bring to a ball then you are part of the problem.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Aug 24 at 2017 8:51 AM

2017-08-24T08:51:31-04:00

Probably a little "awkward" for friends of the former couple who might be at the ball, but if legally separated, then to me it's the same as "single". Usually a legal separation indicates awaiting final legal dissolution of the marriage without reconciliation. Now if the person accompanying the soldier to the ball was the one who caused the marital difficulty, then I say "bad form, bad choice, and bad timing".

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Aug 24 at 2017 10:45 AM

2017-08-24T10:45:35-04:00

I would recommend to please use your head in matters such as this and refrain from what may or may not be perceived as WRONG!!

Hooah

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 24 at 2017 4:05 PM

2017-08-24T16:05:10-04:00

Doesn't seem like a problem to me. I wouldn't question or call attention to the situation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2017 1:17 PM

2017-10-24T13:17:49-04:00

Who cares? Is it just a friend? Honestly they can't even get you for adultery even if you are in bed with someone who isn't your spouse. If there isn't any admission they are in a relationship or you don't see them acting in such a way there isn't much you can do. It's not adultery unless you have proof.

Perception can go f* itself. I had a damn MSG basically call me a slut to my face once because he said there was a "perception" that me and my male best friend were having sex. No we were not. This was on deployment too - and the funny thing is we hung out all the time before, during and after deployment. I went to his house and hung out with his wife. I babysat their kids. No one gave a crap before or after the deployment that we were always hanging out. But during - oh well we must be having sex. I told that MSG (as a SPC) that I didn't give two fucks about his perception. I didn't.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2018 11:35 PM

2018-11-30T23:35:20-05:00

Yes