Is it appropriate for an NCO to counsel a soldier for talking with a GS employee about career planning?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:32:06 -0400

A civilian GS-13 employee (who is my boss) is a very friendly boss who likes to pull his soldiers aside and ask questions pertaining to reinlistment and what goals i have as a soldier in the army. Now he pulls me aside a lot during the work week and discusses these things with the 4 soldiers who work for him, me included. Now my NCO found out i talked to him and instantly thought i was doing the wrong thing and skipping CoC, and the next day counseled me before even addressing me on the matter. The counseling stated disrespecting a NCO and also stated word for word “I WILL NOT GO TO MR.... ON ANYTHING MY NCO IS NOT TRACKING” and stated i will use proper CoC, and that i will not disrespect my NCO, and she required me to write an Essay on UCMJ’s Article 91... disrespecting an officer/noncommissioned officer/warrant officer whether it is assault or verbal or disobeying an order...the date she required it done was August 29th which was a wednesay but on her counseling it stated Monday. Is it even a thing to counsel a soldier for a GS employee talking to him directly? I have looked everywhere for the regulation but cannot find it! Also does she HAVE to be tracking everything i talk to him about? What if i am not comfortable discussing the things i discuss with him.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2018 12:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:43:38 -0400

Your NCO sounds like a douche. How is the GS-13 your boss? Like a supervisor or a branch chief or what? How is that "skipping chain of command" when the boss asked YOU a question?

If that was me I would include in my essay on what leadership is and explain how the civilian displays good leadership and mentorship. That's me.

A NCO can write a counseling for just about anything. It's just a counseling. The purpose of the 4856 is to counsel. But it's pretty bullshit that she got mad at you and said you were disrespecting a NCO. How is that disrespecting her? SHE should be asking you those questions too. Does she ask you about goals and plans?

The GS 13 - is he prior service? He probably has some insight especially since he's out of the Army and working post Army life to give you for your future if you get out and don't stay in. Or if you do.

I would never get mad at a soldier who talked to a civilian supervisor or anyone for life guidance.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2018 12:51 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:51:42 -0400

Write the essay.

But, As you move forward, “hey SGT, just so you’re tracking, Mr. Xyz asked me about my dog. He’s had diarrhea, so I was going to update him on Mr. patches mcfurry”

“SGY, FYSA...Mr. Xyz asked me about who I thought was going to be in the World Series. Just want keep you in the loop before I respond”

Etc. And then your GS and NCO need to have a talk, because as you’ve described it, the situation sounds ridiculous.
Good luck to you.

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 29 at 2018 1:25 PM

SGT David T. — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:25:44 -0400

So the GS-13 is your immediate supervisor? If so, I would have a conversation with them and have them handle it. If the NCO is, politely remind her that the GS-13 is not in your chain of command and as such you didn't jump anything. There are only 2 civilians in your chain of command and that GS-13 isn't one of them :)

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Aug 29 at 2018 1:28 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:28:42 -0400

What kind of asshattery is this? Apparently we have an NCO who is so weak she feels the need to micro manage every single thing a Soldier does. This NCO (and I use the term loosely) needs to GTFO herself already!! Bovine feces like this is exactly why DoD is hemorrhaging good troops faster than my ex-wife can spend alimony payments.

My advice is to let your next higher NCO in the chain know what's happening. It could be just a terrible case of miscommunication, the NCO is going through a stressful time and taking it out on others, or some other interpersonal conflict between the two of you. I'm sure your Platoon Sgt or 1SG can lend assistance.

I bet if the next time the GS approaches you and you politely inform him, "I'm sorry Mr. Xyz, my NCO says I'm not allowed to speak to you unless she gives permission", the GS will handle the situation himself. Especially if he IS a retired O-6 as you've indicated in another response.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2018 1:31 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:31:44 -0400

Sounds like the NCO is butt hurt, if this GS is your supervisor and is the one coming to the soldiers, it is not skipping the CoC.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2018 1:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:45:02 -0400

What is the rank of your NCO that is giving you a hard time? There is absolutely nothing wrong with you speaking with that civilian employee. To me sounds like your NCO hates the fact that you just aren't coming to her about everything. She sounds very insecure and really needs to work on her leadership and supervisory skills.

What I would do because this sounds very annoying is ask the civilian if he can inadvertantly just mention to your NCO that he likes to give you on the spot advise. Nothing about her micromanaging you. Then maybe she will calm her butt down and self reflect. In the meantime, just like others stated, tell her every single thing you have going on. This should annoy her (hopefully) and end up regretting what she asked for. Have fun with this, be respectful, and good luck.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 29 at 2018 1:49 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:49:28 -0400

The NCO is an unmitigated controlling asshole.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 29 at 2018 2:29 PM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:29:15 -0400

Disclaimer 1): I don't know all the details and nuances of your situation. Take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Disclaimer 2): I'm old school. I think giving service members an essay assignment is BS and demeaning. I didn't use "make work" as a punishment, EVER. What's next? "Stand in the corner and think about what you've done."

As a Captain, I had a LtCol. CO pull this crap on me. He gave me an order Directly opposing a command policy from his Col. CO. I refused the order. I wrote the essay as directed and sent a copy to his boss. Let's just say the LtCol. did not care for the content of the essay or the discussion he had with his CO. That said, I went from the number one position rated against my peers in the command to dead last. Didn't matter, I was still selected for Major.

Disclaimer 3): It's easy for me to talk trash. I'm not the one in the situation. This is one of those rare occasions where YOU actually get to decide which hill you choose to fight upon. If you decide to follow my advice, sleep on it overnight.

If you decide you are looking for a scrape, take both Tack#1 and Tack#2.

Tack #1. The order to write the essay is legal. So immediate, intelligent, obedience following the guidance she gave you... do what she said, question it later. Assume the conflicting due date is a trap. complete it no later than the first possible due date.

As part of the essay, I would consult with your local JAG officer (honest to God JAG, not a legal clerk, not an RP "Old Salt" legal expert, not a latrine lawyer.) What is his/her legal opinion on your NCO's prohibition of discussing career with the GS-13. I'm pretty sure that he/she will either laugh or be aghast at your NCO's conduct. If their opinion is that her demand to be included in career advice is BS (I think it is) and that she is about to officially embarrass herself, I would include their "unvarnished" opinion in the essay.

After she read it, inform her that if this shows up in your SRB or NCO evals, the essay will be used in your rebuttal and that you will not back down until a special court convicts you of the charge of seeking advice about you career outside the chain of command..

Tack #2. I am assuming that if the GS-13 has supervisory authority over you, he has supervisory authority over your NCO. It may not even matter. Preserve some level of plausible deniability. DO NOT inform the NCO of every non-supervisory communication you have with the GS-13. Instead, attack the undefended flank. Every time the GS-13 speaks to you, I would inform him:
_Your NCO does not approve of non-supervisory communication between you and him, and
_Your NCO has already punished you, and
_Your NCO has stated or implied that the UCMJ and/or further punitive action will result, and
_You would like to have the discussion, but
_until he gets approval from your NCO, all non-supervisory communication is forbidden.

(EVERYONE will see what you are doing, but it keeps your hands clean.)

If I were your Commander, I sincerely hope this matter would get to me. Somebody might find herself writing an essay on scope and limits of military authority. I would NEVER as an officer tell someone with whom they can and cannot discuss their career goals.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 29 at 2018 5:15 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 17:15:33 -0400

The NCO can counsel you, however having a conversation with a GS employee isn't disrespect to an NCO unless you made disparaging comments. Depending on the sections mission, ordering someone not to interact with the GS employee counterparts could actually inhibit mission accomplishment.

When I served as a Directorate Sergeant Major we had civilian team chiefs and program managers with NCOs serving as SMEs. Soldiers conversing with the civilian GS employees was unavoidable, encouraged and necessary in the accomplishment of daily duties. Forget about the fact that nearly all were former senior NCOs and Officers with many years experience in their fields and their career advice would have been awesome for the NCOs. In our case our GS15 was the deputy Director or equal to our O-6 Colonel. That said if your 13 asks a direct mission related question, I'd answer and then give a courtesy back brief to the Sergeant. Regardless of the situation you should always back brief your leaders on any interaction with a senior Soldier or Civilian as a matter of proper etiquette.

Given the short response time you have, write the essay and comply with the directive. Meanwhile talk to your PSG and read your units SOP, it should outline the relationships and coordinating instructions for dealing and interacting with your GS employee counterparts.

As a retired CSM I personally despise and despised the use of essays as correctional training. The vast majority of those requesting they be done never gave a specific task (other than "write an essay") no clear condition or standard to be achieved, nor the required collegiate format that the Soldier was to reference in developing the essay. Hence what you ended up with was some disjointed garbage with the Soldier apologizing for some discretion written in three or four different variations with little or no real training value, no references cited in a manner that you could review to make sure the context was accurate.
Soldiers prepare information, decision, and action briefings or write Operation Orders and Fragos. Those actually have training value. But that of course is just my ever humble opinion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2018 7:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Sep 2018 19:26:04 -0400

As a recently separated Soldier that manages a program designed to help Soldiers with reintegration, you SHOULD be talking about career and life progression and goals.

Any Leader that would be intimidated by that, to the point of writing you up, isn't worth their rank.

Now. If your conversations were disruptive or distracted you from work or the mission, then yes. She's spot on. If not, she is out of her lane, entirely ...and I'm thinking she's gunning for you because she's too weak to approach him.

Ask to speak to her with your 1SG, CDR, and your "boss" in the room ...and judge the situation on how it sounds to them. If you can stand in front of your Senior Leadership in the right, then she needs to be checked, and they'll let her know. If you're wrong, they'll let you know. If that GS-eleventygazillion is wrong, they'll let him know.

Having one toxic Leader at the wrong link in your chain can have detrimental impacts on your career, and might turn a career Soldier into an "Initial Enlistment and Done" Soldier ...don't lose heart because of one ill-equipped NCO.

She needs to know what her left and right limits are, because she obviously doesn't right now ...but don't write her off. This could be a good learning experience for everyone.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 5 at 2019 5:06 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 05 May 2019 17:06:15 -0400

Is the GS-13 a veteran?