Is it harder to lead a disobedient subordinate or an apathetic subordinate?

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 08:38:58 -0400

Which do you find harder to lead: that disobedient subordinate or the one who is apathetic? What are reasons for your choice? Can you give examples? How do you properly motivate either?

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Aug 4 at 2015 8:41 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 08:41:27 -0400

I would say Apathetic. This person has already made up their mind they will not do anything you tell them. A disobedient you can talk to and work with them. Where as an apathetic person there is no reasoning with them.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 4 at 2015 9:34 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 09:34:29 -0400

Apathetic. They've already given up. Disobedient means they have the will to fight. They are fighting AGAINST something. We just don't know what yet. Once you know what, you can adjust motivation techniques. With an apathetic troop, they are just riding it out, and your goal is keep the attitude from spreading to others.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 10:56 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 10:56:27 -0400

At least the apathetic subordinate isn't actively trying to mitigate your efforts to accomplish the mission. Although neither is good, an outright disobedient (and routinely so) Sailor/Soldier/Airman/Marine needs to be dealt with quickly. It becomes contagious and bad for the entire unit.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 4 at 2015 12:31 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 12:31:15 -0400

Apathy is far worse.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 12:45 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 12:45:05 -0400

Apathetic subordinates are the real challenge. The disobedient ones are easier because you can find out what the issue is...is it fixable or are they actively, intentionally trying to find the exit door? If so, provide them with quality customer service and everyone's a winner. Apathetic subordinates can be burnt out or opportunists. The burn outs can be rehabilitated (I had two E-6s that had been thrown into a PSG slot for a year with no mentorship, the new 1SG placed them under me to rebuild their confidence). The apathy of the opportunist subordinate is particularly challenging. Counseling and documentation is key. Set the expectation, hold them to the standard, and hammer them if they refuse to conform. You owe it to everyone else in the unit to either cure the cancer or remove it.

Response by SPC Joshua Heath made Aug 4 at 2015 12:46 PM

SPC Joshua Heath — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 12:46:39 -0400

The apathetic soldier is much more difficult, though the disobedient can easily become the apathetic. Disobedience can arise from many sources, perhaps its a cultural conflict, a personality conflict, or an issue of rank not being equal to the skill a person possesses. These subordinates can be dealt with easier, once you discover why they are being disobedient. It may be that they need to be handled in a different way than others. A good leader can sense a disconnect between their leadership style and a subordinates style. Finding a way to work with those we do not connect with is often difficult, but possible.

An apathetic subordinate, though? This person is harder to crack. If you want them to become motivated, you'll have to discover why they are apathetic. This can be difficult to determine. Once you do though, it might even then be difficult to motivate that person because they've chosen to be apathetic, even if they don't realize it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 3:37 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 15:37:16 -0400

Disobedient subordinates can be dealt with quickly, either correct your actions or start UCMJ or Chapter paperwork. Apathetic subordinates are a much harder animal to deal with, as they generally know the regulations and skirt right up close to the line without crossing it and so therefore require more effort from their leadership to adjust their actions. I believe that apathetic service members are far more detrimental to an organization than disobediant, because for the most part service members know right from wrong and therefore will police up the disobediance, but apathy can be contagious.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 4 at 2015 4:00 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 16:00:36 -0400

They are both cancer.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 5:55 PM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 17:55:36 -0400

I find that apathetic is more stressful on the leader. I once a shitbag recruit who decided to go the "refusal to train" route and this guy really stuck with it. Every time a Drill Instructor would walk by, he would attempt to draw attention to himself and then just sit there and ignore everyone around him. I ended up putting him in my office so some new DI would not lose his mind on him. No use wasting a good career for some shitbag.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 7:21 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 19:21:40 -0400

In my opinion, CH (MAJ) William Beaver, you can eventually change the mindset of a disobedient Soldier that shows that he/she has some heart, but you can't ever provide heart to someone who doesn't already have one.

Response by CW3 Kim B. made Oct 13 at 2017 10:30 PM

CW3 Kim B. — Fri, 13 Oct 2017 22:30:12 -0400

Apathy by far!

Response by Cpl Bradley Sherrer made May 10 at 2019 10:55 PM

Cpl Bradley Sherrer — Fri, 10 May 2019 22:55:42 -0400

Apathetic. They're weak minded.

Disobedient folks have a reason. Break the reasoning you got one of your strongest team members already

Response by Sgt Dan Catlin made May 12 at 2019 1:49 PM

Sgt Dan Catlin — Sun, 12 May 2019 13:49:34 -0400

Both are bad news, and their attitudes can spread. I'd start documentation on both immediately. I'd also find out what the problem is if possible, and try to work with them to improve teir attitude and performance. Document that too. Start the discipline process as well. One thing that is going to be controversial, but often others in he unit will take matters into their own hands and give an attitude adjustment. As long as this doesn't go too far I say get out of their way, and even facilitate things if you can. But some people are just incorrigible. Get rid of them, and by that I mean out of the service.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Sep 19 at 2019 2:02 PM

MSG Reid Zohfeld — Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:02:42 -0400

I once had a squad of misfits that that different Bn under the same Brigade filled a special team that had various jobs to do
The team would Build special projects to supplying 3400 MREs daily to training FOBs
Some didn’t have a clue what or how to do some tasks
My hands on approach and ability to understand the situation made it simple for me to train them how to do tasks outside their MOS There is one lesson that makes a great leader Never ask a soldier to do anything you can’t do or won’t do This will make your subordinates appreciate the work they are doing as important not a punishment
My team was always short handed and I was always working along side them from Weed eating Training areas to stinging concertina wire Yes this cranky old MSG do work and explaining what and how the project was for
Leaders need to understand their troops in order to provide guidance to them
Again I put in a post that question as such disturbs me thinking that the Senior NCOs are not being trained in simple tasks

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2022 6:25 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 18:25:51 -0400

Depends on why they are apathetic. Perhaps it's not their response but the stimulus that's causing the issue

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Jun 29 at 2023 6:52 AM

SGT Robert Andrews — Thu, 29 Jun 2023 06:52:24 -0400

Why don't you look at how you treat your subordinates.. I had a Staff Sgt who was from the upper east coast me being from Texas .. he thought I was a racist redneck and made my life miserable never gave me a chance to prove him wrong. I rotated from Germany and never saw him again. So why not take a step back and look at what the bigger picture is and evaluate the entire problem before saying the person is the problem. There are many jobs in the military some people are really good in some areas weak in others and sometimes the job they are assigned from MEPS isn't a good fit. Reclassification to a skill they are really good at may help and provide retention.