Is it just a Guard thing when AIT graduates have difficulty with the APFT?

2017-06-15T12:57:35-04:00

Since I became an Officer, I noticed that many New Soliders are arriving to the unit and are failinng the APFT, and are failing to see why it is important to pass. Is anyone else having a similar issue, or is this just a National Guard and Reserves thing?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 1:06 PM

2017-06-15T13:06:03-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member I think this is a disturbing trend we are seeing. I'm not sure how they are passing APFT in boot, but come to first duty & cannot pass. Are they not performing APFT at AIT/Tech School?
I know that, when I went through Tech School, we were not allowed to do flight PT due to some legal crap going on. It was left up to us to do it. I tried to get as many of my flight to PT w/ me, but most chose to sit on their butts &, I'm sure, had difficulty when they had to take their first fitness test when they got to their first base.
In BMT, we had a kid that could do push-ups all day, but couldn't perform one sit-up. There's GOT to be a disconnect between boot & duty.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jun 15 at 2017 1:06 PM

2017-06-15T13:06:54-04:00

I've always found that the level of fitness depends on the type of unit AND how well the leadership does on the test. If you are in a logistic unit, it's not unusual to see PT failures in my experience, where an infantry unit will generally have better results. This seems true on active duty too, even at the 100st, the Rear Echelon groups ran at the back of the Division Runs because they couldn't keep up with the grunts.
If they joined because of school benefits, they may just not give a crap about promoting.

Response by SGT Charlie Hill made Jun 15 at 2017 1:15 PM

2017-06-15T13:15:31-04:00

I left the Marine Corps in 1990 and reenlisted in the army national guard in 2000 and took my first pt test at 34years old and I smoke 1-2 packs a day and was the 2nd to cross the finish line at about 13 minutes ahead of 20 kids between 19 and 25 went to fort drum for school a year later and did pt test with active duty soldiers from 10th mountain and had about the same results but they did beat me at sit ups and push ups as I didn't try to max jus about 10 - 20 over my minimum due too bad back and shoulder so it's not the guard its the x-box generation are a bunch of pussies

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jun 15 at 2017 1:17 PM

2017-06-15T13:17:05-04:00

Anyone who is literally fresh out of basic should be able to pass, whether Active, Guard or Reserve. That said, a year ago, I got a soldier who arrived at our Reserve unit 3 days after graduation and failed the APFT. He would later redeem himself and hadn't failed since, but damn!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 15 at 2017 1:35 PM

2017-06-15T13:35:12-04:00

Bad APFT performance across a unit is a reflection of the leaders in that unit allowing that to be acceptable behavior

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 1:49 PM

2017-06-15T13:49:37-04:00

Well I cannot say about APFT but I was at Jackson back in 2005 and I can attest that some Basic training units would try to cheat on weapons qualification for their hard cores. What they did not realize is my computer stored scores for every lane, you could come in 2 years later and give me a date and I could pull up scores for each firing order and each lane in that order. But we would print out the scores, some units would take those sheets and hand write their own scores and keep that and trash the computer print out.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 1:51 PM

2017-06-15T13:51:47-04:00

Coming from the guard as well, we had the same issue in my unit. Soldier who had been here years would consistently fail, new soldiers would arrive and fail as well. The guard has a unique problem, we don't see our soldiers but once a month. So how do we as leaders hold soldiers accountable for the APFT when we cannot be there or have them chaptered out?
What we did was to move them from the unit. Where I am, the soldiers are on attachment orders. If they failed 2 they would be sent back to their home unit. If they continued to fail at that home unit, they were just barred from reenlistment normally. Failing soldiers also did were ineligible to attend certain events.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 2:44 PM

2017-06-15T14:44:52-04:00

I have heard rumor but not confirmed that there may be pencil whipping going on with APFTs in basic and AIT.

I failed a PT test in AIT. I always had an issue with situps and didn't figure it out until WLC that it was my form. I had to wait until graduation day to retake it. I passed (obviously). I failed one in Iraq and was flagged (that was my dumb fault getting lazy). I'm definitely no PT stud either but I was in my best shape after basic/AIT until about my 30s. Then life happens and things began to give me problems.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 3:29 PM

2017-06-15T15:29:41-04:00

It is my understanding that the trainees only have ftp score 50 on each event and that it fell on the gaining unit to get them up to at least passing standard. But maybe that is just going from basic to AIT?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 4:05 PM

2017-06-15T16:05:05-04:00

If they could pass a PT test at one time, and no longer can, and it is not a medical issue, then it would appear the soldiers simply do not want to maintain standards. I was never great at PT. I joined late in life, and was lazy and out of shape, and still only graduated BCT with a waiver because I was 18 seconds slow on my run (60s in each category when I went). 5 weeks later I passed my PT test at AIT to phase up. In active duty, you recognize being a PT failure means flags on favorable actions, enduring remedial PT, etc. In the reserves and guard it can be a different story, especially when met with the challenges of only seeing soldiers once a month.

My current reserve unit does have problems with some people coming in, or resurfacing out of the IRR, that are having problems. They get flagged. They know they can't go to the trainings that make us better while flagged. They don't get the majority of benefits like tuition assistance. They won't get promoted. They're informed of our unit practices of strongly suggesting going into the IRR if you cannot pass a PT test and need time to prepare for one.

Perhaps the incentive needs to be there for young soldiers to understand why being flagged is a bad thing. If they never did active duty time where the consequences are hammered home, then they need to learn. This is something they never likely learned as an AIT student because they're not looking at promotion. PT failures should need to report in for remedial PT hours earlier than everyone else and stay later. They might be happy to just be junior enlisted and not have any promotion potential. They might need to be put into the IRR if they cannot meet unit standards. They won't receive tuition assistance or awards. They'll catch all the $#!t duties because they're low ranking soldiers that can't be used for anything else. If that's their attitude, you don't need them. If they're willing to try, then work with them.

Unlike most units, mine is a cyber unit. To us, we don't do summer AT as much as go to a 2 week training to get our CISSP, or Certified Ethical Hacker, or CCNA because it helps our unit as well as our civilian career. To be flagged and not able to go to something that benefits our civilian careers, while knocking out good training that benefits the unit, is harsh. We're also top heavy, so ranking up is also something we want to do, because it's the E5s doing the garbage collecting at the end of the weekend and cleaning up. My senior enlisted has no issues putting folks into the IRR because there are always people who want our open slots.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jun 15 at 2017 4:36 PM

2017-06-15T16:36:48-04:00

Great question, as a retired Soldier and a Father of a new Soldier I specifically told my young Soldier Physical Training is an individual's responsibility. That being said variety is needed to achieve an APFT passing grade.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 5:11 PM

2017-06-15T17:11:24-04:00

Sir,

I would consider this to be the from a few things:

1) lack of discipline to continue training and remain fit
2) the 705 they had from AIT to pass the training was a lie. They couldn't pass the rest at all and instead of paperwork to recycle or boot out they knock off a minute or give 5 more push ups.

I've thankfully had soldiers that just got lazy and need a firm kick in the bum to giddy-up. But I have seen plenty of fresh MOS'd or split o.o who can't pass at all. They must have been sent through just for numbers.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 5:28 PM

2017-06-15T17:28:46-04:00

Its important for leaders, especially NCOs to understand that many new Soldiers arriving to their first duty station will not have the discipline or self-motivation to maintain their physical fitness while on their 30 days of leave before arriving. NCOs must get out front and identify this earlier and get them enrolled into the special conditioning program, while reinforcing the the values of discipline and commitment. Don't set this young Soldiers up for failure, they may not have a full comprehension of the importance of maintaining their physical fitness.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2017 1:16 PM

2017-06-16T13:16:48-04:00

there is too much time between AIT graduation and actual report date to the unit. they get lazy and fat in that time frame. they should be on orders for a few more days directing them to report to the unit asap.

Response by CPT Ray Doeksen made Jun 26 at 2017 12:39 PM

2017-06-26T12:39:08-04:00

In a reserve unit (NG or USAR) it's a tough one, because you don't have much in the way of time, resources or carrots/sticks to get much done. You have yourself and the other officers and the NCOs to lead by example, of course, and you can regularly and properly administer weigh-ins for screening and conduct APPT as professionally and correctly as possible. You can go outside the MUTA/AT and try to get them hooked up with trainers or training locations, and try to build a gym in your armories. Veterans' groups near me are trying to line up free or discounted gym memberships for other veterans and service members, and many gyms offer (small) discounts for reservists/vets. Not an easy problem to solve.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Jun 26 at 2017 12:55 PM

2017-06-26T12:55:04-04:00

I agree that there seemed to be many younger soldiers when I was in the Guard and then the Reserves who failed the APFT. Yes the standards for younger soldiers are more strict but it also seemed to me at the time that many of these soldiers were also cigarette smokers.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made Nov 25 at 2017 11:24 PM

2017-11-25T23:24:45-05:00

No, when I was on Active Duty in the early 90's we had that problem too. I was in the National Guard both before that and after. It doesn't have anything to do with the duty status of the soldier, just the self discipline/motivation. I seen plenty of soldiers that both passed and failed in both the AD and NG.