Is it legal for a Dept of Army Civilian (GS10-15) to demand and expect a Soldier, lets say a Sr. NCO or a Jr. Officer, to do push-ups?

2017-08-07T07:18:48-04:00

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Aug 7 at 2017 7:22 AM

2017-08-07T07:22:47-04:00

No one 'demands' push-ups!

Response by CPT Edward Barr made Aug 7 at 2017 7:37 AM

2017-08-07T07:37:34-04:00

That would be a big NO.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Aug 7 at 2017 7:52 AM

2017-08-07T07:52:45-04:00

From my operational background (not legal, not a JAG), the legal requirement to obey legal orders given by superior commissioned officers is well known and established. A GS civilian is not a superior commissioned officer, and is not in the direct chain of command. The only situation where I could imagine a GS civilian having any authority to direct even one push-up would be a doctor or nurse during an examination following an injury to determine readiness, or during physical therapy, but even then these would be considered medical advice and not orders. If you failed to follow medical advice and as a result you harmed yourself or prevented recovery, then your commander could legally punish you, but that's about as close as I can imagine.

Response by CPT Edward Barr made Aug 7 at 2017 7:55 AM

2017-08-07T07:55:11-04:00

No, I can't quote specific regs. But you have to go in the direction that any civilian, of any DoD/DoS grade, other than Secretary of.. and Assistant Sec have no command authority of even the lowest private.

Response by SSG Glenn West made Aug 7 at 2017 8:08 AM

2017-08-07T08:08:39-04:00

The Federal Employee has not command authority over you. They may have evaluation authority, meaning they can be your rater. The Federal Employee of GS-15 is equal to a Colonel (CAPT in the Navy) and can rate you. But I have never heard of a Federal Employee at any level ordering a Soldier to do push ups.

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 7 at 2017 8:17 AM

2017-08-07T08:17:42-04:00

Civilian employees are a weird group in the hierarchy. We can supervise and rate military members, but we have no command authority. We cannot impose UCMJ as an example. Civilians can recommend to the Soldier's commander, but cannot actually exercise any command authority. As best as I understand it, we are limited to issuing instructions for our specific job areas. For example, telling a Lieutenant to work on project a as opposed to project b if they are a direct report. I have never seen a civilian attempt to drop a SM before. Might be sort of amusing to watch. There are equivalency charts out there but that is only to assist in relating to each other and how we all line up in the pecking order of our respective chains. It is also used when things are based on rank such as housing overseas and AFRC resorts. Other than that, I am pretty sure the civilian doesn't have the authority to drop a SM.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Aug 7 at 2017 9:58 AM

2017-08-07T09:58:16-04:00

Oh hell no. Ignore the directive and let them try whatever they want to try. Heck, challenge them to find where it says them have the authority to issue corrective training to a member of the military!

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 7 at 2017 10:46 AM

2017-08-07T10:46:35-04:00

On Embassy Duty, as the Company "F" OpsO, I had a State Department General Services Officer (sort of the embassy S-4) tell me he was the equivalent of a Brigadier General and demand that I stand at attention when I addressed him and render a hand salute upon arrival or departure of his presence. The Ambassador (a Former Marine Artillery Officer) and I laughed so hard we couldn't breathe. When the Ambassador could finally speak, he said "Not even in pay grade... dumbass." Then we laughed some more.

Response by Russell Butler made Aug 7 at 2017 12:09 PM

2017-08-07T12:09:12-04:00

This seems like a ridiculous situation that should be reported to the civilians chain of command or IG if it is still an ongoing issue or has affected that particular NCO's rating. I've seen stupid situations like this spiral out of control and cause long-lasting damage to hard-won relationships between civilians and green suiters. As a supervisor, the civilian may have some mission command as delegated, (I believe this is discussed in the Army Leadership field manual) but does not have UCMJ authority to impose punishments. The civilian may recommend punishment to the military leadership, but it is up to the military leadership to adjudicate.
Any Army civilian whose head was not in currently up his/her ass, would recognize that they crossed a very bright line when they "ordered" an NCO to do pushups outside of a recognizable authority given to them to complete their mission as directed.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Aug 7 at 2017 12:39 PM

2017-08-07T12:39:37-04:00

From what I've read on other posts to this question the answer would be no,but I would have loved to be in the area when a GS of any rate ever tried to give my old Platoon Sergeant push ups,now that would have been let's say ,amusing,yes amusing would be a good adjective!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 4:10 PM

2017-08-07T16:10:01-04:00

This is a joke right?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 4:18 PM

2017-08-07T16:18:12-04:00

I don't have nearly the legal or command experience as many others who have already responded, but as a SNCO(retired), I see it like this. Not a commissioned officer, not a lawful order. Even if they had the "authority" to issue orders, doesn't make them right. Any threats to talk to said soldier/Marine's superiors would only emphasize the lack of authority thereof. Any superiors who would give merit to a GS making unlawful orders is incompetence on their part.

Response by SPC Justin Foster made Aug 7 at 2017 4:22 PM

2017-08-07T16:22:48-04:00

This would be my exact response:

http://p.fod4.com/p/media/877ebc4f55/lHXWok2MQk66MDCPdFCM_Whose%20Line%20Is%20It.gif

lHXWok2MQk66MDCPdFCM_Whose%20Line%20Is%20It.gif

Response by PO1 James Booker made Aug 7 at 2017 4:39 PM

2017-08-07T16:39:34-04:00

I would have dropped and taken a nap...

Response by 1SG Stephen Burgess made Aug 7 at 2017 4:40 PM

2017-08-07T16:40:12-04:00

When I was a 1SG I would have put my foot up a civilians ass for trying to impose corrective actions on a Soldier. Now that I am a GS civilian...I would put my foot up a civilians ass for trying to impose corrective actions on a Soldier.

Response by SSG Todd Halverson made Aug 7 at 2017 4:43 PM

2017-08-07T16:43:06-04:00

This is beyond funny. How anyone would even think this is possible and ask this question is hilarious. I have had civilians tell SNCO and officers off over work stuff, but never try to give orders to Military personnel. Never met one who thought or had the belief they could order Soldiers around.

Response by LCpl Edward Brown made Aug 7 at 2017 4:59 PM

2017-08-07T16:59:12-04:00

As Marine Corps enlisted I'd have told him to go piss up a rope.

Response by SGT Jason Conger made Aug 7 at 2017 5:28 PM

2017-08-07T17:28:09-04:00

If you are not the soldier in training NCO keep your fat mouth shut. That soldier is being trained for war to protect you .

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Aug 7 at 2017 5:34 PM

2017-08-07T17:34:36-04:00

I worked with and for civilians for much of my career and the question never even came up. If the civilian has a problem, they talk to you and work it out. If it's a discipline issue they direct it to the next military member in the Chain of Command.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Aug 7 at 2017 5:35 PM

2017-08-07T17:35:42-04:00

LOL a civilian expecting a soldier to render obedience to them. Too funny. I will admit though, as a civilian I have messed with my fellow Marines. When the SNCO tries to get some workout challenge going, some of the juniors might try to resist, so I drop down and do the workout and look at the Junior Marines and say "if I can do it, I think you can handle it".

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 6:04 PM

2017-08-07T18:04:17-04:00

From a legal standpoint, no. If we are to look at the Punitive Articles of the UCMJ, there might be some question of whether or not this falls under Article 92: Failure to obey order or regulation. As this order was not a general order or a dereliction of duty, it would fall under Article 92(2) "Failure to obey other lawful order". However, to prove a violation of this article, you would have to prove the following elements:

1. That a member of the armed forces issued a certain lawful order;
2. That the accused had knowledge of the order;
3. That the accused had a duty to obey the order; and
4. That the accused failed to obey the order.

This is the specific language taken from the UCMJ. It directly requires an order from a member of the armed forces. Additionally, the article, in general, requires that the order be lawful, and I think there are issues there as well. So, at least in this case, you would not be able to prove the member violated this article of the UCMJ. Depending on the circumstances, other articles might apply, but the short answer is no, there isn't a legal basis for that kind of an order.

Another consideration is the rules for giving an order for a member to do pushups in a presumably punitive manner. However, since I am not in the Army, I have no idea how that is handled there.

Any JAGs on here, feel free to correct me. I'm just applying my limited learning as a Legal Officer!

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 6:17 PM

2017-08-07T18:17:45-04:00

A Force Support Squadron in the Air Force will generally (at least CONUS) have either a civilian "Director" with a military "Deputy Commander", or a military commander with a civilian "Deputy Director." I can't comment as to how it works as far issuing orders and UCMJ punishments with a civilian Director as I've always had a military commander, but the difference in titles may go back to some of what's been said above.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 7:12 PM

2017-08-07T19:12:50-04:00

Tell them Negative Ghost Rider that'll be a no go on those push-ups.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Aug 7 at 2017 8:17 PM

2017-08-07T20:17:19-04:00

As a young National Guard spc4, it was my extreme pleasure to tell a DOD civilian to kiss my ass.

Response by MAJ Brad D'Angelo made Aug 7 at 2017 8:29 PM

2017-08-07T20:29:46-04:00

Well...I suppose the president can make you beat your face. He is in the CoC after all...

Response by PFC Patrick States made Aug 7 at 2017 9:03 PM

2017-08-07T21:03:41-04:00

He can't even expect an E1 to do pushups. He's a civilian and has no place in the chain of command.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 10:20 PM

2017-08-07T22:20:41-04:00

SFC VILI J, SCHWENKE.
I have a LTC State Guard, who told my men to disregard their primary order and follow his order because, he out rank me, the Platoon Sargent. By the time I found out about this. The Platoon Leader had already advised the State Guard that he have no authority over his soldiers. He was also told if he need any assistance, go to proper chanel is: TOC or BNHQ..COMHQ...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 10:36 PM

2017-08-07T22:36:37-04:00

I found this to be more of an issue while deployed. GS... would claim they outranked us. We ain't would reply they were in the wrong uniform (they wear the chocate chip camo from the desert storm). Yes a GS may be equivalent to a LTC or higher but that is by certain privileges, pay, and expected work load. It has no bearing on rank over an uniformed person regardless of rank or branch. They may be a rather if they are a supervisor, but not a senior rater.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 1:04 AM

2017-08-08T01:04:12-04:00

When I was a Major, my superior was a GS 14 and retired Colonel. He still liked to project himself like a Colonel and the whole staff was fine with it. He never ordered any of us to do pushups, but I am sure any of us would be willing to do them.

Response by PO3 David Adams made Aug 8 at 2017 1:31 AM

2017-08-08T01:31:03-04:00

Hell No - If They Don't Wear the Same Uniform - Cause That Government Worker Didn't Have to go through boot Camp to get the Paycheck

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 8 at 2017 5:19 AM

2017-08-08T05:19:26-04:00

That'd. Be a no-brainer ... a gs whatever definitely has no say like that except like a cimrade said to do a med Eval but even then they would Prob'ly put it it in a question form and do it nicely..

Response by PO3 Paul Stai made Aug 8 at 2017 8:22 AM

2017-08-08T08:22:53-04:00

When I was in 'A' school I was ordered by my instructor (1st class PO) to not allow anyone back into the classroom until he returned ...then a frumpy suit showed up and told everyone to get into the classroom...I politely declined to allow it...turned out he was the civilian head of the school...wound up in some crap and in the CMC's office getting an ass chewing....altogether very difficult to understand for an E-3 just trying to do his duty....

Response by Cpl Aaron Boyd made Aug 8 at 2017 9:27 AM

2017-08-08T09:27:31-04:00

No way in hell I would PT for a civilian, no way I would let my men be punished by one either. That's just nuts.

Response by CW4 Leonard White made Aug 8 at 2017 12:23 PM

2017-08-08T12:23:56-04:00

The oath a military member takes says, in part, "obey the orders of those appointed above me." If a civilian is appointed your supervisor you are legally obligated to follow their instructions. But...they are not part of your "military chain of command" and have no military authority over you. I once had a civilian I worked for tell me she was my "commander." I told her "no, your not, I work for you to complete work related tasks but you are not in my chain of command or responsible for my military readiness" (I was a CW3 at the time so you can imagine how I said it). Only a military officer or NCO can order junior soldiers to do remedial/physical training, i.e., push-ups.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 12:31 PM

2017-08-08T12:31:27-04:00

BLUF- No.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Aug 8 at 2017 4:12 PM

2017-08-08T16:12:41-04:00

I've been out a while, but when I was in, ordering ANYONE to do push-up if not in a PT environment constitute hazing.

Response by Susan Foster made Aug 8 at 2017 8:58 PM

2017-08-08T20:58:19-04:00

Absolutely not. A civilian has no business telling any military to do pushups. By the way, I doubt the civilian could do any.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 9:19 PM

2017-08-08T21:19:19-04:00

Lawful who knows but if not doing these push-ups is going to cause more heart ache than it's worth if advise just doing them.

You need to pick your battles.

Response by SFC Robert Alsup made Aug 8 at 2017 10:51 PM

2017-08-08T22:51:16-04:00

Uh NO! I would tell that civilian to go fuck himself!

Response by CW2 Fred Baker made Aug 8 at 2017 11:49 PM

2017-08-08T23:49:16-04:00

Really?!! Some civilian ever tried that with me, I would still be laughing 50 years later. One thing for sure, I would never forget his name. It would be under the word asshat in the dictionary.

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Aug 9 at 2017 2:34 AM

2017-08-09T02:34:08-04:00

No and no... and if I caught it happening... not only would I be having a convo with the gs civilian... but his boss... and then other routes... not ok at all

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Aug 9 at 2017 5:24 AM

2017-08-09T05:24:23-04:00

Yes there is a “secret handshake club” you would be surprised at the number of cops around the world who are veterans and give our Sisters and Brother shall we say professional courtesy. The motto of the “secret handshake club” is “WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN”!

Response by MSG Bob Metz made Aug 9 at 2017 5:36 AM

2017-08-09T05:36:16-04:00

If this civilian is in any responsible for or has input in your rating system...respectfully deny them the pleasure...if this type of request continues or any act of retribution follows take the situation to another level...either the IG or your next higher military superior...in addition, annotate everything as a Memo for the Record...Such a request by any civilian authority or peer is disrespectful and arrogant at least...and should not be tolerated...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 1:57 PM

2017-08-09T13:57:44-04:00

Idk if legal or not but I aint doing no pushups for a civilian !!

Response by Cheryl Carrier made Aug 13 at 2017 3:17 AM

2017-08-13T03:17:13-04:00

My husband had an officer he knew from the unit walk past him, he turned and said you don't salute officers. My husband said no sir, I am retired and a civilian.. But you have a nice day..

Response by William Smith made Oct 12 at 2017 1:40 AM

2017-10-12T01:40:27-04:00

GS is just a pay grade and conveys no authority or responsibility for others unlike rank. I am a civ. was an nco. I would say however if they are serving in a supervisory position over a military person they then they would have the same authority over work matters as a military boss. but push ups? Well I dont know about that

Response by Kevin Pawson made Oct 22 at 2017 6:13 PM

2017-10-22T18:13:01-04:00

You remember back a ways there was a movie by the title of Top Gun? There was a part in the movie Jester introduced "Charlie" an Government Service Civilian his words that followed the introduction "She is not an officer, you do not salute her! But you damn well better listen to her because the Pentagon does!"

Response by MAJ Montgomery Granger made Oct 29 at 2017 5:57 PM

2017-10-29T17:57:55-04:00

I'd say no. Not in their chain of command? I don't think so! HOWEVER! If that GS also has a reserve rank and has a leadership role on weekends, one might want to indulge them if one has to report to them otherwise.

Response by Erick Owino made Dec 21 at 2017 9:15 AM

2017-12-21T09:15:58-05:00

Nyc one comrades

Response by MSG Dale Lee made Dec 23 at 2017 10:17 PM

2017-12-23T22:17:45-05:00

I once had a E5 reservist that was a GS-16 during the day. His title was clerk in the slot he filled so officially he worked for the S1, yet he was senior rater to all staff officers because of his daily duty position, and his eval. Didn't matter. Civilian scheme is different, but the can not command. They can influence but not directly be the one doing. If a civilian wants you to do something, it is hard to not do it without the repercussions. Try once to get a civilian in trouble, they control pay, medical, retirement, awards, promotions, and answer to nobody. Many are assets and a few detrimental.

Response by Capt Bob Soldner made Dec 24 at 2017 5:24 AM

2017-12-24T05:24:29-05:00

It certainly wasn't in my day but then that was MANY years ago. Retired in 72.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2017 5:39 AM

2017-12-24T05:39:20-05:00

There is a army regulation, dated sometime in 2002, that I have personally seen, (Several years ago so I can't remember which one) that states something to the affect of: Soldiers cannot be subjected to physical exercise as a form of punishment, unless: 1. The soldier is in IET status or 2. It is for an APFT failure.
Given that particular regulation alone, I would say that it is safe to say that you would not have to, especially a civilian.

Response by MSG Joe Santiago made Dec 24 at 2017 2:05 PM

2017-12-24T14:05:58-05:00

Hell NO!! I would have loved to deal with some civilian pecker trying to tell me to knock out some pushups.

Response by Maj Daniel Rubadue made Dec 24 at 2017 2:36 PM

2017-12-24T14:36:54-05:00

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2017 4:25 PM

2017-12-24T16:25:08-05:00

That really is funny. There are places where civilians have authority over service members and even rate or senior rate NCOs, but as far as doing push-ups or any other physical corrective action goes, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that would happen to me or anyone else in my presence would comply with such jackassery.

Response by CPL David Thompson made Dec 24 at 2017 11:52 PM

2017-12-24T23:52:27-05:00

Hell to the no.

Response by Capt Joseph Schvimmer made Dec 25 at 2017 11:35 AM

2017-12-25T11:35:25-05:00

What made the civilian think he had the right to do it? While in the military i would have told the civ to #%+(translation: please desist, you are embarrassing yourself)

Response by PO3 David Greeley made Dec 25 at 2017 1:05 PM

2017-12-25T13:05:15-05:00

In no way should a GS civilian should have military authority to demand military personnel to perform physical exercise as a manner of disciplining them. If military personnel are under a GS employee's purview, the active duty member should be referred to his chain of command for such action.

Response by PO1 Doug Bronson made Dec 25 at 2017 1:12 PM

2017-12-25T13:12:00-05:00

They new what my answer would be. KMA.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2017 3:09 PM

2017-12-25T15:09:59-05:00

Civilians have zero authority over soldiers. However, in order to avoid an issue with their command, the NCO may have just decided it was a better choice to do the push ups.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 25 at 2017 5:05 PM

2017-12-25T17:05:46-05:00

Not NO, but hell NO. DOD civilians have that GS rating for 2 major reasons, 1. It is a pay rate. 2. It gives them an assimilated rank for lodging/billeting. There will be times when a civilian will be your immediate rater, but the senior rater will be an Officer. GS folk have NO direct command authority and only supervisory authority in the fields they are operating. Tick one off, and they will have to go to your commander/senior to request corrective action.

Response by SSG Jim McCarthy made Dec 25 at 2017 5:43 PM

2017-12-25T17:43:47-05:00

SSG (Ret) J. Mccarthy. There is no way on God's green earth that I would let that happen

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2017 1:06 PM

2017-12-26T13:06:41-05:00

As everyone else has stated No its not right. I work both sides of the equation I am a GS as a civilian and of course a Warrant on the Military side. I have also worked with AMC (Green) and they have a civilian side by side in a lot of different billets. i.e. Deputy to the Commander deputy SPO and S3. I have worked side by side with a GS 11 in Afghanistan and I can say we had a SGT (E-5) try and walk all over him, I can say it didn't happen not only did I step in but so did the chain. In the end the GS should not be telling them to drop, and if it does they should respectfully decline and go to there first line leader.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2017 4:28 PM

2017-12-26T16:28:31-05:00

I would rate their authority just under the rank of "Corporal's wife".

Response by SSG Kenny Church made Dec 26 at 2017 4:38 PM

2017-12-26T16:38:29-05:00

Push ups? Not like. The only civilian that can order a military member around is the Commander in Chief. However if you are assigned to a post that has civilian leadership part of your orders will include that you follow the instructions / orders of your civilian boss. But push ups? They can shove that right up their...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 11:00 AM

2017-12-27T11:00:56-05:00

I've been yelled at before for cursing out a civilian that tried to make me do corrective training at Fort Drum and I had zero fucks when I lit into him at the time i was an E4. My platoon Sgt stood up for me and then dusted my ass off for cursing the guy out. He later told me that the smarter way to handle it is to politely tell them to fuck off and go ask for a ICE COMPLAINT form that goes straight to the top and they fire civilians if they get a bad ice form. Also PSG told that guy most likely got the job because he knew somebody when they were in service together. It's better to tell them to fuck off

Response by PO1 Barbara Matthews made Dec 27 at 2017 11:19 AM

2017-12-27T11:19:06-05:00

In my career I never saw a Navy Chief that would take that type of correction. Nor have I ever seen an officer that would neither. I was an E6 and I wouldn't have dropped for a civilian. I would have taken it up my chain of command even if I had made an error. I'm a big girl and will own my mistakes. Aside from that the civilian over stepped his place.

I was a Corpsman and worked with many civilians. I've even work under their supervision but there always were boundaries. Luckily, those boundaries were respected.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Dec 27 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-12-27T11:20:28-05:00

In some positions civilians have some control. My rater was GS 11 and he never gave me a hard time. He was a retired LTC that was a former MSG. That being said civilians can not direct a soldier to do anything outside their job description.

Response by 1SG Edward Cullen made Dec 27 at 2017 11:30 AM

2017-12-27T11:30:16-05:00

I had a CW5 on Friday retire and came back Monday as a GS14 and start being quite the butt head. You should have seen his face when I informed him he was a civilian now!!!

Response by SFC William Brown made Dec 27 at 2017 11:49 AM

2017-12-27T11:49:05-05:00

Fuck no. They should've told that fat ass GS 10 to drop and give them 100. Under no circumstances should service members ever put up with threats from civilians in any capacity, whatsoever.

Response by SPC Tommy Faircloth made Dec 27 at 2017 11:59 AM

2017-12-27T11:59:11-05:00

Hey LT, NO!!! You answered your own question. They’re a civilian. They aren’t your superior officer or senior nco. They have no control over you. Let them record it and face that whenever you have to but they can’t tell you to do push-ups. That’s like a dependa telling you that you have to salute her because her husband is an officer.

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Dec 27 at 2017 11:59 AM

2017-12-27T11:59:43-05:00

I have nothing nice to say about this. Comments withheld.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 12:24 PM

2017-12-27T12:24:50-05:00

GS-?? at any grade is still A CIVILIAN and NOT to be issuing such orders to military of any grade. IF such action is necessary, it should come from a senior military person. Should senior civilians have problems with military personnel, they in turn, should report such to more senior military personnel.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 1:05 PM

2017-12-27T13:05:25-05:00

As a Marine Corporal I was at a tech school at APG Maryland where there were Army AIT Soldiers. One of their instructors, I don't recall what rank, walked into a break room where we happened to be getting snacks out of a machine. The AIT students didn't call attention and the instructor proceeded to try to make us all push. Myself and the other three Marines just walked out and he was a bit upset! He went to our instructors to try to enforce some sort of punishment. The answer he got was basically to pound sand. We were subsequently banned from getting snacks from the vending machine in that break room after that.

Response by CPL Jack Baker made Dec 27 at 2017 1:13 PM

2017-12-27T13:13:33-05:00

I drop my fellow soldiers (im retired) everytime they get promoted. Order them right over facebook. That being said, if a civilan tried to drop me when I was active, I might have done it, then contacted the IG, AG and the stars and stripes and gotten them fired.

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made Dec 27 at 2017 1:17 PM

2017-12-27T13:17:03-05:00

Chain of command. . Ain't no gs in my chain .

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Dec 27 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-12-27T13:24:10-05:00

I’d laugh... they don’t have general nor specific military authority ... and heaven help that civilian if I was around and he tried this bullshit... there is a right way to discipline a soldier... a civilian can come to me or other leaders to address a issue

Response by SPC Nathaniel Begay made Dec 27 at 2017 1:54 PM

2017-12-27T13:54:02-05:00

Hell no. We earn our shit.

Response by SPC Nathaniel Begay made Dec 27 at 2017 1:55 PM

2017-12-27T13:55:09-05:00

Fuck. The civies

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 1:55 PM

2017-12-27T13:55:28-05:00

Tell tht civilian to go pound sand and get back to doing whatever you were doing

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Dec 27 at 2017 2:17 PM

2017-12-27T14:17:32-05:00

Nope

Response by SCPO Wayne Clark made Dec 27 at 2017 2:24 PM

2017-12-27T14:24:04-05:00

Hahahahahaha. No wait, HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Dec 27 at 2017 3:08 PM

2017-12-27T15:08:53-05:00

Basic underwater demolitions SEAL training (BUDS) has a civilian instructor (a retired SEAL) in an neocon phase. This would be the only exception I can think of.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 3:22 PM

2017-12-27T15:22:31-05:00

No!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 3:57 PM

2017-12-27T15:57:47-05:00

Lol. I would have told him to kick rocks.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 4:15 PM

2017-12-27T16:15:20-05:00

Who comes up with these questions?

Response by SSG Douglas Espinosa made Dec 27 at 2017 4:19 PM

2017-12-27T16:19:40-05:00

Last I remembered the only time the GS scale was used for equivalence was to determine the level of housing authorized. I'm former Army now a GS employee within Military Real Estate. I have zero General Military Authority. My time in uniform is over. I am here to support those in uniform now. That's all.

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Dec 27 at 2017 4:21 PM

2017-12-27T16:21:52-05:00

Unless it was the President- no fucking way.

Response by SP5 Michael Angle made Dec 27 at 2017 4:38 PM

2017-12-27T16:38:43-05:00

My first duty station I reported directly to a civilian gs-10 she was very good to the three lower enlisted soldiers that worked directly for her but one of her unwritten rules was if you screwed up in a relatively non important way she would smoke you for While and not report it to your command. I took the smoking a few times because the pt was easier than counselings or extra duty.

Response by Cpl Greg Perkins made Dec 27 at 2017 5:27 PM

2017-12-27T17:27:07-05:00

Not exactly the same, but I remember having an army LT(im a marine), try to pull a bunch of us from a chow line for something. He flipped out when we refused. Saying how he was an officer and we need to obay him... just then good old Gunny rivera comes walking around the corner and begins to correct this young Lt in a very lound manner.

Response by MSgt Sharon Mallory-Robinson made Dec 27 at 2017 5:34 PM

2017-12-27T17:34:36-05:00

As a retired MSgt, I can honestly say no one messed with my people. Not Civilians, not other Branches. If they had an issue, they brought it to me, and I questioned everyone involved and decided if it was something I should handle, or my Chief should. A GS is not the President, or the SecDef. Make a request, yes. Give an order, no.

Response by SFC Ron Culver made Dec 27 at 2017 5:35 PM

2017-12-27T17:35:21-05:00

Ha, ha, ha. This a joke, right?

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Dec 27 at 2017 5:38 PM

2017-12-27T17:38:47-05:00

That is just silly.

Response by 1LT Charlie Luddy made Dec 27 at 2017 6:16 PM

2017-12-27T18:16:35-05:00

Civilian workers should never demand push ups or any other corrective measure , if a soldier is disrespectful or rude let the civilians complain to an NCO or officer, they will correct the behavior

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 6:28 PM

2017-12-27T18:28:44-05:00

A senior NCO? I would LOVE to see a civilian try to make a sergeant first class do a single push up. Whether or not they can isn't really the question, it's will they survive the exchange?

Response by TSgt Rudy Adame made Dec 27 at 2017 6:40 PM

2017-12-27T18:40:34-05:00

Civilian, no matter his grade. Has any authority to tell military personnel what to do. I would not follow his orders.

Response by TSgt Rudy Adame made Dec 27 at 2017 6:41 PM

2017-12-27T18:41:35-05:00

Already responded

Response by SGT Philip Keys made Dec 27 at 2017 6:50 PM

2017-12-27T18:50:25-05:00

This guy might be crazy; zero command authority over military personnel. I had a buddy at Bragg that thought it was funny to make me push NC, just for laughs. He was a SSG and I was a SGT. So I did a few and later on after a few beers I thought it was funny to punch him in the arm for a few until he decided his little BS stunt wasn't ever going to happen again.

Response by COL Frank Siltman made Dec 27 at 2017 7:07 PM

2017-12-27T19:07:27-05:00

Can’t be a veteran GS civilian. I never dealt with GS until I was a senior Field Grade and at that point both was rated at one point by a GS15 and then became the rater for a significant GS population up to my deputy who was a GS 14. While the Soldiers in my organization were rated by GS supervisors, I was the chain of command, not the GS. Now as a GS, I put my retired rank behind me and leave the leading of Soldiers to their chain of command. That’s not our jobs.

Response by SPC Michael Williams made Dec 27 at 2017 7:15 PM

2017-12-27T19:15:05-05:00

My response? With all due respect kiss my a**

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 7:30 PM

2017-12-27T19:30:30-05:00

Yea that would be never. No where are they in the same league. Though they they may be under the DOD does not make them the same department.

Response by SPC Steve Morgan made Dec 27 at 2017 7:31 PM

2017-12-27T19:31:37-05:00

Yeah , I’m an old tanker and we have much closer relationships with our officers and nco as a whole so I would of responded with
No thank you sir , please feel free to contact whoever you chose , Fucker

Response by SPC Rick Robertson made Dec 27 at 2017 7:52 PM

2017-12-27T19:52:34-05:00

With all due respect to this overpaid twit, icewater will be free in Hell before I do 1 pushup for him/her.

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Dec 27 at 2017 8:29 PM

2017-12-27T20:29:08-05:00

No. I'm on the civilian side now and deal with officers to recruits. That's not our job nor do we have the authority. That sillyvilian should be disciplined.

Response by LCpl Christopher Pickett made Dec 27 at 2017 8:38 PM

2017-12-27T20:38:58-05:00

Yeah no, civillians are not in the chain of command and are parallel in rate/grade to military. They dont have the authority to make said demand, and were likely yelled at if the civillian did report the refusal.

Response by SGT Steven LaLonde made Dec 27 at 2017 9:03 PM

2017-12-27T21:03:40-05:00

Hell freakin no! You Dont wear the uniform you have no right to tell my soldiers anything
Sgt. Steven Lalonde, Retired

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 9:04 PM

2017-12-27T21:04:48-05:00

This is when the civilian wakes up in the hospital 72 hours later wondering "what happened?"

Response by SSG Jd Huckeby made Dec 27 at 2017 9:21 PM

2017-12-27T21:21:16-05:00

I'm a former Army NCO and currently an AF Contracting Officer (GS-12) that purchases contracts for all services (mostly Navy and USMC, but my program does have Army stuff). Im not a 1LT, CAPT, or MAJ. I'm a friggin' GS-12. No comparison or relation whatsoever with any rank. I appoint and manage Contracting Officer Representatives (COR). The regs say I have authority to influence NCOER/OER. I only do so if in a positive way via non-solicited emails to thier CO; as is the way I belive this reg was intended. If theyre a dirtbag, I'll simply terminate thier appointment as a COR, require thier command to provide me someone else to appoint as a COR, and let thier command say what they want about the situation. My interpretation of the regs in this situation is that its not my business to do anything further than i described above to the negative. Of course, i cant speak for other KO's out there. Lots of folks that do my job that never wore a uniform on perpetual power trips.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 9:22 PM

2017-12-27T21:22:04-05:00

Why even ask. No, no civilian has buisness in NCO buisness. Im a civilian and a GS civilian and wouldnt do that because im not allowed to or wont.

Response by CPO Howard Brown made Dec 27 at 2017 9:42 PM

2017-12-27T21:42:39-05:00

I hope someone took that sand crab to task for that line of bullshit.

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made Dec 27 at 2017 9:48 PM

2017-12-27T21:48:03-05:00

Response by TSgt Chad McGraw made Dec 27 at 2017 9:56 PM

2017-12-27T21:56:38-05:00

Here is the only situation I can think of and it applies to the Reserves and National Guard. Some of the National Guard, who do wear their uniforms to work as required to by orders, but they are what they call dual status technicians. What I mean by this is they are usually on the GS 10-15 scale except during their monthly drills and their annual training. These dual status technicians run the administrative side of things to ensure that if the call goes up the unit can respond. That is the only situation I can think of.

Response by MSgt Linda Diane made Dec 27 at 2017 10:06 PM

2017-12-27T22:06:55-05:00

I had an E-5 active duty AF person tell me he out ranked me since he was full time and I was a Guard member. I looked down my sleeve as an E-6 and laughed. I worked hard to make rank, nothing was ever handed to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 10:26 PM

2017-12-27T22:26:41-05:00

The army should get rid of civilian employees. They all seem to think we work for them, when it's the other way around.

Response by Cpl Billy J Genaway made Dec 27 at 2017 10:45 PM

2017-12-27T22:45:14-05:00

I would use at least a little bit of professional courtesy as I proceeded to laugh in their face as I walked away, considering a (GS) whatever rank is not affiliated with any military C.O.C !!

Response by SFC Craig Starr made Dec 27 at 2017 10:45 PM

2017-12-27T22:45:43-05:00

One area being missed is elected leadership. Our oath binds us to defend the constitution of the US and follow the orders of our appointed leaders. This includes elected officials and honoray appointed cabinet members such as Secretary of; Defence, Army, State, etc... These officials are all elected by the people or appointed by our Commander in Chief.

A GS government employee however is neither unless appointed through the Commander in Chief or is an elected official.

Response by Frank Clay made Dec 27 at 2017 10:54 PM

2017-12-27T22:54:37-05:00

No. It's not. I think they needed an LPC in a shady area so far that it would require a proctologist's help.

Response by Col Richard Roessler made Dec 27 at 2017 11:17 PM

2017-12-27T23:17:48-05:00

Rotflmao! Please stop I can’t laugh any more. My ribs hurt. Please, I beg you, stop!

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 11:21 PM

2017-12-27T23:21:12-05:00

Fuck no!

Response by SFC Keith Ciancio made Dec 27 at 2017 11:21 PM

2017-12-27T23:21:26-05:00

I am a retired sergeant first class and now a Department of the Navy GS-12. My military grade equivalent for degree of responsibility is O-3/O-4. HOWEVER, responsibility does not equal authority as I am not a supervisor. There are instances where a civilian may have authority to direct the military service member's work and render his/her evaluation. That said, under no circumstances does the civilian have the authority to punish someone who wears the uniform. It should be noted that pushups are never punishment and are corrective training to correct deficiencies in upper body strength, and none other. If a civilian is "dropping" troops, report it to his or her supervisor. That civilian probably should not hold a government job. Oh, and retired rank has no place in Federal civil service other than computing reduction in force protections. It does not affect pay, allowances, entitlements, or position.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 11:27 PM

2017-12-27T23:27:19-05:00

We had a reinactor in a Colonel's uniform tell us we had to salute him and stand at attention when we spoke to him if we were in uniform... It didn't go over well with the NCOIC... Dumb ass.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 1:08 AM

2017-12-28T01:08:26-05:00

I’m an active duty army medic and currently work in the SRP clinic on post, where civilians greatly out number soldiers. We have one NCO and 5 lower enlisted (including myself). Our overseeing physicians are all civilians. We work with several civilian nurses etc. quite a few have a prior service background (although talking to most, they couldn’t hack it in the military and that’s why they are civilians now). The shit that gets me is the expectation that they get to shit talk us and order us around like we are their personal work horses. But heaven forbid any of us say one fowl word to any of them. It’s bullshit. But I guarantee if any one of them tried to pull some shit like that, it would literally be world war three

Response by PO1 John Mitchell made Dec 28 at 2017 4:08 AM

2017-12-28T04:08:15-05:00

Response by SGT Charles Palmer made Dec 28 at 2017 4:22 AM

2017-12-28T04:22:42-05:00

It's not illegal if they "request" you to do push-ups, it's also optional as to whether you want to do them or not! Depends on how badly you want to gratify somebody else's ego at your expense?

Response by SPC Korey Kilburn made Dec 28 at 2017 4:59 AM

2017-12-28T04:59:38-05:00

I suppose if the Civillian in question was the Secretary of Defense or Secretary of the Branch in question, then it could be argued the civillian in question is in the Chain of Command. However, this is a hypothetical stretch at best.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Dec 28 at 2017 8:13 AM

2017-12-28T08:13:17-05:00

If I as a CSM heard a civilian did that or even tried to do it to one of my Soldiers you would be able to see the mushroom cloud for miles.........

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 8:38 AM

2017-12-28T08:38:30-05:00

I remember hearing stories back when I was in sub school, that some RDCs in a couple divisions handed a red and black card for IT exercises to a couple civilians that monitored the waiting divisions outside of the galley. One person said there was a specific lady who walked around high and mighty while holding those cards. Never heard anything though about them being used though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 8:44 AM

2017-12-28T08:44:27-05:00

In one word, No.

With one Big Exception, the President of the United States

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 8:47 AM

2017-12-28T08:47:37-05:00

Had a GS14 tell me to wash his vehicle in Astan. I told him no he got so butt hurt he told the Colonel on me! He asked me if I said no , told the Colonel not only no but F@#& no! One O-6 proceeded to tell one GS14 I wasn't washing said vehicle.

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Dec 28 at 2017 9:59 AM

2017-12-28T09:59:43-05:00

Good article from Stars and Stripes:

https://www.stripes.com/blogs-archive/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/can-dod-civilians-outrank-troops-1.140733#.WkUGFnNMHqA

404 - Page not found

Maybe the page was or deleted, or perhaps the address is mistyyped. No worries, we are here to help...Try one of the options below.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 10:06 AM

2017-12-28T10:06:43-05:00

This is when you tell that person to go suck a gigantic phallic object

Response by CPO Jeff Branum made Dec 28 at 2017 10:25 AM

2017-12-28T10:25:16-05:00

That person is outside his mind!!!

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 28 at 2017 12:19 PM

2017-12-28T12:19:49-05:00

I was a GS-14 DAC. If I had an issue with a soldier, I would discuss it with the them. If it couldn't be resolved, then I went to the first NCO or Officer in their chain of command. Issues were resolved with amazing speed when I talked with the CSM or Deputy Commander. As a DAC, ordering a Soldier to do anything is normally outside the scope of your job description. In an emergency situation or under special circumstances, such as being an instructor where ordering is necessary, a DAC should give direction when essential. Civilian employees who are hired to work as officers or senior NCOs in Guard and Reserve units and wear the uniform to work everyday are in a different situation. They are normally members of the Guard or Reserve unit they support and drill with the unit. Seems unusual for anybody to order a SNCO or Officer to do much of anything. IMO discussion is normally more effective, but that's a leadership technique.

Response by SFC Phillip Allen made Dec 28 at 2017 12:28 PM

2017-12-28T12:28:38-05:00

Let’s see, how can I put this without being inappropriate?! Uhmmm, not a chance in hell would a civilian, besides the CIC, ever have the authority to impose any type of corrective action, push-ups being the prime example, on a servicemember of any rank or branch.

Response by SSG Kevin Smith made Dec 28 at 2017 12:47 PM

2017-12-28T12:47:57-05:00

Yeah I would pushed my foot right up hi s civilian Ass!

Response by SPC Larry Selbert made Dec 28 at 2017 1:13 PM

2017-12-28T13:13:07-05:00

Not gonna happen !

Response by Jason Mimiaga made Dec 28 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-12-28T13:24:37-05:00

Fuck. No.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 1:27 PM

2017-12-28T13:27:49-05:00

Sorry, some things are worth the Article 15.

Response by Sgt James S. made Dec 28 at 2017 1:49 PM

2017-12-28T13:49:19-05:00

A GS employee has zero authority to demand or expect push-ups from a military member.

Response by COL Tom Ritz made Dec 28 at 2017 2:03 PM

2017-12-28T14:03:54-05:00

Not only NO but hell NO! If they want to be leaders raise your right hand and EARN it! I would have fired the civilian

Response by LCpl John Lewis made Dec 28 at 2017 2:10 PM

2017-12-28T14:10:26-05:00

Absalutely not, as a Marine I took orders and discipline from my superiors and no one else and now as a civilian I take orders from my boss and my lady no one else is part of the chain of command, no civilian would have me doing push ups

Response by COL Rich McKinney made Dec 28 at 2017 2:35 PM

2017-12-28T14:35:11-05:00

How about the reverse, an officer dropping a civilian? When I was 5 an Air Force doctor gave me a shot then told me to drop and give him 10. He said that would keep it from hurting.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 2:47 PM

2017-12-28T14:47:48-05:00

Thinking with Dual status technicians it would be a gray area. You’d have to do something really stupid for me to switch from GS to NCO while at work! But it would have to be EXTREMELY stupid! And then, you’d have to be in my unit. Otherwise, I’d just narc on you to your chain.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 3:47 PM

2017-12-28T15:47:11-05:00

I personally don't believe civilians belong anywhere near the military, once you're out, you're out. No ifs ands or buts

Response by CPL Todd Murray made Dec 28 at 2017 5:36 PM

2017-12-28T17:36:57-05:00

Hell no!!! As a Soldier now turned Civilian contractor I feel awkward when a soldier calls me sir. I have leaned in and let a soldier know when he was out of uniform regs but always do it on the down low. But that's just trying to help them out. The only thing we can and should be able to do is address the situation to a senior military personnel and let them deal with it.

Response by CSM David Draughn made Dec 28 at 2017 5:40 PM

2017-12-28T17:40:33-05:00

This wannabe has no authority to act like this around uniformed personnel, period.

Response by SGT Ashley Little made Dec 28 at 2017 6:47 PM

2017-12-28T18:47:10-05:00

If you want to issue orders to a uniform service member I suggest you raise your right hand and put the uniform on yourself! In the meantime, civilians need to keep their nose out of military business. All they need from them is the mission and the troops can handle it from there.

Response by SFC Dean Wyman made Dec 28 at 2017 6:48 PM

2017-12-28T18:48:43-05:00

I was AD and then civ at the Q course.
If I told you to push, your ass better push.
No matter AD or civ Ret, mission dictated.
Push or leave

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 7:02 PM

2017-12-28T19:02:06-05:00

No, fuck you.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 7:03 PM

2017-12-28T19:03:18-05:00

No, fuck you.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Dec 28 at 2017 7:16 PM

2017-12-28T19:16:53-05:00

Push ups as punishment after boot camp is demeaning, period. The GS that tries that bullshit should be fired. Once a soldier guises basic they should be treated like professionals as punished line professionals.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 7:33 PM

2017-12-28T19:33:37-05:00

Civilian guard personnel

Response by SSG Thomas Gallegos made Dec 28 at 2017 7:46 PM

2017-12-28T19:46:59-05:00

Hahahaha YEA RIGHT!

Response by CH (CPT) Abdiel Fuentes Garza made Dec 28 at 2017 8:06 PM

2017-12-28T20:06:28-05:00

No. Enough said.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2017 8:14 PM

2017-12-28T20:14:39-05:00

Civilians dont generally fall in the rank structure so it is unorthodox at best, if not flat wrong. Could a civilian be empowered with this right? Certainly possible...
However unless this Civilian is filling the spot of an instructor at BMT then pushups are definitely innappropriate.

Response by SGT Shaun Zilinski made Dec 28 at 2017 8:18 PM

2017-12-28T20:18:20-05:00

Civilians cannot give corrective action to the military service member, but if a service member is in the wrong, bet your azz i would have pulled him aside and gave him the scolding of his life or the gentle nudge to correct him or herself.

Response by SFC Bryan Johnson made Dec 28 at 2017 8:44 PM

2017-12-28T20:44:36-05:00

No, one of my soldiers, We gonna have a problem.

Response by PO3 Dennis Kordes made Dec 28 at 2017 8:47 PM

2017-12-28T20:47:17-05:00

This can't be a legitimate question.

Response by Sgt Jason Koepke made Dec 28 at 2017 9:04 PM

2017-12-28T21:04:44-05:00

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY..... I would laugh, uncontrollably, at them while pointing, call my fellow Marines over, tell them what they tried to do, and then we would ALL point and laugh...... Lol!!!!

Response by SFC Mark Bailey made Dec 28 at 2017 9:13 PM

2017-12-28T21:13:59-05:00

Not just 'No', but shall we say 'Never'
Civilians have a hard enough time skulking out of their "safe spaces" to even mumble a prepatory command
Not just 'No'

Response by LCpl Edward Brown made Dec 28 at 2017 10:15 PM

2017-12-28T22:15:52-05:00

As a former Marine I'd have just laughed and told him to go piss up a rope and if he continued to be stupid I'd more than likely been in the brig.

Response by Cpl Greg Rock made Dec 29 at 2017 12:30 AM

2017-12-29T00:30:13-05:00

That never happened to me; I can't recall ever hearing about it happening to any fellow Marine.

If it *had* happened to me: I don't know what the world record is "Fastest Request For Someone To Go F**k Themselves," but I'll wager that I would have beaten it.

Response by 1stSgt Troy Powell made Dec 29 at 2017 12:33 AM

2017-12-29T00:33:09-05:00

Totally illegal.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 1:58 AM

2017-12-29T01:58:00-05:00

As far as I am aware the only civilian that is in your direct chain of command is the commander and chief., but i been known to be wrong
I would have laughed at him myself. This does work both ways. My father was a GS employee. A full bird started yelling at him about something or other. Dad just folded his news paper, closed up his donuts grabed his jacket and hat and made for the door. When it was demanded where he was going dad simply replied he was going on vacation. Didn't go back to work for a week.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 7:02 AM

2017-12-29T07:02:26-05:00

No, but... Here is a game I learned back in airborne school. The black hats said we were all students and students could not instruct student to drop, but NCOs could write up a student and the student would be kicked out after two write ups. If a Jr student screwed up, I would asked if the student if they would like to voluntarily perform some push-ups instead of me filing paperwork with the black hats. If your GS has you in one of those type of situations, I would typically do the push-ups with the GS as long as it is good natured and the guy isn't a jerk.

Response by CPL Wesley Keyser made Dec 29 at 2017 8:38 AM

2017-12-29T08:38:35-05:00

My platoon sergeant had one pushing him and a few soldiers around with that kind of attitude and he told her, "I swore an oath to obey the orders of the president, the officers and the officers and McD's above me. Where exactly are you mentioned in that?"

Response by COL Charles Williams made Dec 29 at 2017 8:58 AM

2017-12-29T08:58:40-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member No!!!!!! (A) They have no/none, and can't have any command authority, and (B) regardless of their background, have no reason to get involved the corrective training, and/or discipline of any Soldier. That is why we have Commanders, a UCMJ, and of course SLs, PSGs, 1SGs, and CSMs. I like 1SG Stephen Burgess's answer the best...

Response by SSG Max Goodman made Dec 29 at 2017 9:31 AM

2017-12-29T09:31:12-05:00

Hell no there is not a civilian that could make me do pushups except maybe household 6 aka the wife

Response by PV2 Stephen Baker made Dec 29 at 2017 9:50 AM

2017-12-29T09:50:31-05:00

This is funny. A civilian trying to "punish" a soldier. I can see prior service messing with a new recruit but this is beyond funny.

Response by Cpl Mark Stroker Burnett made Dec 29 at 2017 11:34 AM

2017-12-29T11:34:11-05:00

Should have pissed on it leg

Response by Cpl Sergio Calvano made Dec 29 at 2017 12:06 PM

2017-12-29T12:06:18-05:00

Absolutly not!

Response by MSgt Brian Williams made Dec 29 at 2017 12:24 PM

2017-12-29T12:24:43-05:00

Absolutely not. What kind of nonsense...

Response by CW2 John Murray made Dec 29 at 2017 12:37 PM

2017-12-29T12:37:26-05:00

As a retired CW2 if I ever saw a GS Civilian telling a soldier of any rank to push, OR assume any military stance while addressing them, I would first laugh hysterically, then laugh some more, then have to educate the obviously power trippin GS as to his/her place in the food chain. Gimme a break.

Response by SGT Scott Coughlin made Dec 29 at 2017 12:39 PM

2017-12-29T12:39:52-05:00

Fuck to the NO....civilians are not military and this whole “my GS Grade is equivolent to blah” is also stupid...ive heard it all before...you even see it in movies now where the “civilian” is leading a Gunnery SGT thru the jungle....there is no equivolency

Response by SGM John Barnett made Dec 29 at 2017 1:07 PM

2017-12-29T13:07:24-05:00

Reserve component organizations have Senior Civilians, the Top SC speaks for the CG in his absence, however when it comes to rank and file, they have no authority to actually screw with soldiers, that's a chain of Command thing. If that SC sees something that is questionable he would contact the soldiers supervisor. If a SC does do this kind of garbage, the question is, why is he a SC.

Response by SSG John Mitchell made Dec 29 at 2017 1:31 PM

2017-12-29T13:31:49-05:00

Legal? HFN! Don't give a ratt's ass what Rank you had. You ain't wearing the Uniform, you aren't in my COC. Only Civilians I could even think of that has any say in the Armed Forces wouldn't bother dropping a Soldier in the first place. As in Cabinet Level Appointees.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 2:14 PM

2017-12-29T14:14:00-05:00

No. Tell the douche to go kick rocks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 2:23 PM

2017-12-29T14:23:52-05:00

As a junior NCO, I'd tell them shove it up their ass.

Response by SP5 Roger John made Dec 29 at 2017 2:29 PM

2017-12-29T14:29:09-05:00

No civilian should order a service man. Only potus as commander in chief.

Response by SPC Dawn Appelberg (Johnson) made Dec 29 at 2017 2:57 PM

2017-12-29T14:57:00-05:00

No...and hell no. Since when did a civilian end up in a military food chain?

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 3:10 PM

2017-12-29T15:10:10-05:00

I would tell that guy to shove that shit up his ass.

Response by SFC James Turner made Dec 29 at 2017 4:54 PM

2017-12-29T16:54:54-05:00

Not on your life. I would tell him to go to hell.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Dec 29 at 2017 5:10 PM

2017-12-29T17:10:12-05:00

NO, if they wanted that authority they should wear a uniform

Response by TSgt J R made Dec 29 at 2017 5:23 PM

2017-12-29T17:23:12-05:00

Like the time an E-6 admin troop tried to tell an E-4 TACP to drop and give her 20 in front of 2 other E-6 TACP's. We paused for a second to process what she said, giggled, and told the E-4 and the admin troop there ain't gonna be pushups today. As a GS who had specialists working with me, I wouldn't even think about correcting a soldier except to give advice or if it was detrimental to safety, never pushups. If there was a problem I'd speak to their military supervisor and let them handle it. I have seen a GS as a direct line supervisor of military but in that situation I'd still talk to a senior NCO in the chain to correct the problem.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Dec 29 at 2017 5:52 PM

2017-12-29T17:52:54-05:00

Not no, but hell no! Doesn't matter what grade the civilian is, this type of action is way out of line.
If this occurred, the civilian should be counseled.

Response by SFC Stephen Navarro made Dec 29 at 2017 6:03 PM

2017-12-29T18:03:14-05:00

Out of your effin mind!

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Dec 29 at 2017 6:16 PM

2017-12-29T18:16:41-05:00

When hell freezes over!

Response by PO1 Jim Tullis made Dec 29 at 2017 6:45 PM

2017-12-29T18:45:33-05:00

No f...ink way. As we say in the Navy, tell that man to take a long walk off a short pier!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 7:26 PM

2017-12-29T19:26:16-05:00

GS employees have corresponding military ranks. When I was a GS-9, it was the equivalent of an LT. Not saying it's necessarily right, but there is legal precedent.

Response by COL Ardis Ferguson made Dec 29 at 2017 8:00 PM

2017-12-29T20:00:42-05:00

Sounds like someone has an inflated view of their position and totally lacks humIlity. reminds me of the Major in Heartbreak Ridge.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 8:06 PM

2017-12-29T20:06:13-05:00

As I progressed through the Army, I became more exposed to and even worked directly for GS civilians. I never met one that put themselves above the Soldier or attempted to discipline them the way fellow Soldiers do... That said, when I was a MAJ, I had a GS-15 direct supervisor, and if he thought having me do pushups was an appropriate corrective action for me doing something stupid, wrong, etc... I would have done them gladly. I can say that because one, he was my supervisor and there's nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about such an act that is well known for correcting jackassery or doing something stupid etc..., two, he was a retired COL and had much more experience than I had as an Army MAJ, three, he was the kind of guy that didn't wear his rank on his sleeve (ever time I called him Mr. X, he would answer MAJ Y in an exaggerated way as a reminder to call him by his first name), four, he instilled a culture and environment where I enjoyed serving, and finally, if he ever would have chosen to use such a form of discipline, it would have been in a private setting and likely in a joking manner... So each situation is different and other variables come into play but by and large, I've yet to meet a GS civilian that would attempt to give such an order/directive...

Response by SGT Janet Howell made Dec 29 at 2017 8:31 PM

2017-12-29T20:31:12-05:00

I am with the original commentator 200%

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 8:50 PM

2017-12-29T20:50:22-05:00

I'm sorry but I'll be damned if a civilian will make me or my Soldiers do a single push up. Now if said civilian brings something to my attention that said Soldier or Soldiers did wrong, then I may just have said Soldier or Soldiers doing push-ups or corrective action deserving of the actions taken.

Response by SSG Ken Potts made Dec 29 at 2017 8:59 PM

2017-12-29T20:59:45-05:00

He'll no, they are civilians, and not in the direct chain of command in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

Response by Randall Swenson made Dec 29 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-12-29T21:10:24-05:00

Hell no. Not under any circumstances unless it's a medical professional doing their job and the push-ups are for medical clearance.

Response by SSgt David Marks made Dec 29 at 2017 9:43 PM

2017-12-29T21:43:03-05:00

To me a GS10-15, are civilian gov't employees and should have no authority over active duty members. BUT then you also have to deal with politics, I have no idea what the UCMJ or Army regs say on this.

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Dec 29 at 2017 9:59 PM

2017-12-29T21:59:40-05:00

I would probably follow that order if it were the POTUS. Anyone else would get a piece of my mind.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Stone made Dec 29 at 2017 10:13 PM

2017-12-29T22:13:53-05:00

Plenty civilians are far better leaders then those wearing stripes. If the military is hiring a civilian expert to train them the that “ expert “ is in charge. Why get your panties in a bunch of privates know if he has to do a few push-ups? The military has been so feminized in the last 25 years even senior NCOs are bunch of pussies now.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 10:36 PM

2017-12-29T22:36:36-05:00

Not a chance in hell would any leader at any level let that happen. When I was 1SG I would have had a civilians for dinner if they tried that shit on one of my Soldiers

Response by PO1 Eric Ford made Dec 29 at 2017 10:52 PM

2017-12-29T22:52:39-05:00

At what point does any civilian have this right? OK if Trump wants me to give him 20 I drop. Other than that Fuck Off!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 11:04 PM

2017-12-29T23:04:42-05:00

No.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 11:27 PM

2017-12-29T23:27:31-05:00

As an E-3 in the Marines, I was vacuuming the hallway carpet. One civilian asked that I also vacuum her office carpet (She was a former Marine). I obliged her.
A second civilian woman ordered me to vacuum her office carpet. I told her no. Long story short: a MSgt ordered me to vacuum the civilians office that day. I obeyed his order.
I did have a civilian supervisor. But, even she knew to ask things of me not directly related to our primary job, not order.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 11:28 PM

2017-12-29T23:28:40-05:00

I would report that civilian for trying to order someone to perform pushups.

Response by SFC John Patterson made Dec 29 at 2017 11:51 PM

2017-12-29T23:51:23-05:00

The proper response is "SUCK my dick" and walk away.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 6:20 AM

2017-12-30T06:20:17-05:00

Response by Sgt Cesario Briseno made Dec 30 at 2017 8:24 AM

2017-12-30T08:24:24-05:00

No it is not legal. When I was going through basic at Lackland AFB I did see some civilians yelling at basic airmen when we were getting our uniform issue. The Senior DI reminded the civilians that they worked for the Air Force but were not in the Air Force.

Response by SFC Daryl Smith made Dec 30 at 2017 9:02 AM

2017-12-30T09:02:33-05:00

Your Soldiers were dumb enough to do it...instead of saying no.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 9:34 AM

2017-12-30T09:34:13-05:00

Cmon LT.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 10:19 AM

2017-12-30T10:19:28-05:00

What kind of crap is that? AND By what or whose authority would a civilian have to be making such an absurd request? Probably thought Captain Kangaroo was a real Captain.

Response by 1SG John Highfill made Dec 30 at 2017 11:17 AM

2017-12-30T11:17:57-05:00

Not in a heartbeat except maybe a secretary of defense or president

Response by TSgt Daniel Danielson made Dec 30 at 2017 12:02 PM

2017-12-30T12:02:48-05:00

To the best of my knowledge a civilian has no authority to impose any form of discipline on soldier. Having being both GS and military it is unacceptable for this sort of thing to happen

Response by Sgt Thomas Evans made Dec 30 at 2017 1:03 PM

2017-12-30T13:03:07-05:00

Not only no, but HELL NO!

Response by PO2 Kasey Kadinger made Dec 30 at 2017 1:04 PM

2017-12-30T13:04:33-05:00

There are only 2 civilians in the military chain of command the secretary of the respective service and POTUS. Tell everyone else to fuck off

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 1:26 PM

2017-12-30T13:26:00-05:00

Well, it's not illegal. Federal agents aren't likely to put a DAC in custody if they try it. However, making it enforceable or being sanctioned for refusal doesn't seem real.

Response by Cadet 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 1:38 PM

2017-12-30T13:38:31-05:00

no. They have no authority to do such a thing. Unless given express authority by the commander - which is in my opinion incredibly unlikely, and even then must be within the confines of regulation. (600-20 is the go-to for organizational structure) It seems inappropriate. In addition, civilian staff are generally part of the command staff and supplementary, not part of the direct chain of command. (hence, no authority).

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 2:16 PM

2017-12-30T14:16:07-05:00

A civilian has no such power to demand any soldier to do a push up much less a senior NCO! It would never happen here!

Response by PO3 John Toups made Dec 30 at 2017 2:46 PM

2017-12-30T14:46:23-05:00

Sir, you hold no rank. I suggest you GTFO ASAP before I use your ass to shine my boots.

Response by Cpl Kenneth Lester made Dec 30 at 2017 3:02 PM

2017-12-30T15:02:25-05:00

You have to ask this question?

Response by PO3 Scott Cross made Dec 30 at 2017 3:02 PM

2017-12-30T15:02:52-05:00

I would be laughing and telling him I would do as many as he could do. Just for the fun of it.

Response by SSgt Thomas Hirschey made Dec 30 at 2017 4:10 PM

2017-12-30T16:10:35-05:00

Is it still legal to have someone do push-ups in the first place? As a retired Marine working as a DOD civilian on a Marine base, I don’t even argue with Marines anymore, if there is a problem, send it up the chain of command.

Response by SGT James Stahley made Dec 30 at 2017 4:19 PM

2017-12-30T16:19:25-05:00

Response by AN Eric Lewis made Dec 30 at 2017 4:39 PM

2017-12-30T16:39:49-05:00

Report it up the military side of the chain of command.

Response by LT Terry Lober made Dec 30 at 2017 5:04 PM

2017-12-30T17:04:50-05:00

As both a former navy officer, and a GS-12, the only civilian that can order anyone in the military to do squat is the Secretary of the service ( Army, Navy,Air Force) and the POTUS. As a JAG I can also say with confidence that other than the POTUS no civilian regardless of civil servuce rank is entitled to a salute.

Response by SPC John Decker made Dec 30 at 2017 6:42 PM

2017-12-30T18:42:17-05:00

Civilians, regardless of GS level, do not fall into the chain of command.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 6:55 PM

2017-12-30T18:55:27-05:00

In the past, I've lived on both sides of this, a SNCO and a GS-11 civilian. There is no scenario I can imagine where a civilian should even contemplate that unless we're talking about SECDEF or POTUS (then all bets are off).

Response by Connie Franchia made Dec 30 at 2017 8:42 PM

2017-12-30T20:42:45-05:00

He## NO

Response by SSG Lawrence Whitmire made Dec 30 at 2017 8:50 PM

2017-12-30T20:50:57-05:00

I think it’s wrong, but have been in this situation before where I had to supervise troops who were assigned to me as a GS employee. I never would have demanded this type of corrective action, I feel it’s an active duty term of indearment cahratctor building situation, that civilans should avoid at all cost. That being said we should reflect on our oath of enlistment. What was that little part about obeying “those” appointed over us?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 8:58 PM

2017-12-30T20:58:54-05:00

When I was stationed in France with the US Arny Finance and Accounting Office Paris, 1963-66. We wore civilian cloths. Our CO was a LTC, his finance deputy was a GS-14, who was also an Army reserve COL (our XO was an Army MAJ). The new deputy F&A deputy joined joined the F&AC-P in 1965.

On his first day of his 1966 two week reserve training. He wore his uniform. He came into my section and told me he wanted to "inspect the troops." I told him we didn't have to "play Army." He very sarcastically asked if I knew what his rank was. I said "Yes, you're a GS14" and if you want to "play Army" you'll have to get the CO or XO to tell me I have to Play Army with you today. He turned red in the face. Then I said, If I can help you and statistical or operations questions, I'll give you whatever it takes to get the information you need.

About a half hour later I got a call from the CO. He asked if there had been a problem in my section this morning. I said nothing I couldn't handle. The CO then said He wanted me to remember he always available if I needed him.

BTW, Our GS-14 wore civilian cloths for the rest of the time he wore civilian cloths.

Response by SFC John Davis made Dec 30 at 2017 10:11 PM

2017-12-30T22:11:43-05:00

As a 18 series retiree and a contractor, I was a Small Unit Tactics (SUT) instructor and frequently dished out corrective reenforcement to my studs. These corrective actions consisted of wind sprints, buddy carries, or perhaps ruck marches from hell...The boys just love it...

Response by SCPO Tom Cash made Dec 30 at 2017 11:09 PM

2017-12-30T23:09:38-05:00

No, they are not in your chain of command. The only time I did push-ups after boot was when doing our semi-annual fun runs n stuff.

Response by SSG Billy Claggett made Dec 30 at 2017 11:17 PM

2017-12-30T23:17:55-05:00

I would of told them to kiss my fucking ass

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2017 7:27 AM

2017-12-31T07:27:23-05:00

That GS Civilian would get a stern beatdown

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2017 8:19 AM

2017-12-31T08:19:06-05:00

It's legal to demand free ice cream from Dairy Queen, but that doesn't mean you're ever going to get it.

Response by SSG Chris Page made Dec 31 at 2017 9:09 AM

2017-12-31T09:09:48-05:00

I wish a civilian would have tried to give me orders. I had a retired civilian at Ft Huachuca try and give me orders once and I told him to KMA.

Response by SFC Tim Mosher made Dec 31 at 2017 9:22 AM

2017-12-31T09:22:57-05:00

Oh, hell no.

Response by SP6 James Sr made Dec 31 at 2017 9:30 AM

2017-12-31T09:30:40-05:00

Hell no

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Dec 31 at 2017 10:21 AM

2017-12-31T10:21:53-05:00

So while the answer is generally hell no, when I have civilians tell me I am the boss, I use it as an opportunity to educate that our government is set-up to always have civilians at the top. My chain of command is the President to the DOD Sec to the Army Sec.

Response by MSgt Thomas Mason made Dec 31 at 2017 12:03 PM

2017-12-31T12:03:47-05:00

Absolutely NOT in his or her position as a Department of the Army Civilian! As a reservist performing military duties - perhaps yes, but not as a DAC! DAC are generally equal in grade to military personnel for "signature purpose" only! Under the old system a GS-12, equivalent to an 0-3 or 04 depending on assigned duties is the first GS grade with "signature authority", meaning what they sign becomes an official DoD document.
T. Mason, US Army Communications-Electronics Command, DAC - retired

Response by SSG Charlie Carlson made Dec 31 at 2017 12:12 PM

2017-12-31T12:12:52-05:00

Unless you are in my civilian chain of command such as Sec of the Army, Defense, VP or Commander in Chief you have no part in disciplining me or my soldiers. DA civilians are just civilians and if they tried to overstep their lane of fire into my lane I would introduce them to their first set of combat boots (at least one) up their ass.

Response by SSG Dennis O'Connor Jr. made Dec 31 at 2017 2:08 PM

2017-12-31T14:08:05-05:00

Sure it’s legal and can even be demanded. Would I have to obey? Lol not only no but hell no. When I wore the uniform I’ve worked for and with a few DA civilians. While most were a pleasure to work with there were a select few who thought they actually wielded power. Some demands I responded with nothing more than a roll of the eyes

Response by David Taylor made Dec 31 at 2017 2:49 PM

2017-12-31T14:49:30-05:00

Do the words KISS MY BIG LEATHER ASS!! Have any particular meaning for this question????

Response by SSG Scott Keller made Dec 31 at 2017 3:43 PM

2017-12-31T15:43:41-05:00

I would throat punch a civilian foor ordering me to do pushups and if it is legal i would let the civilian throatpunch me back....

Response by SPC Michelle Goodhart made Dec 31 at 2017 5:16 PM

2017-12-31T17:16:41-05:00

A civilian should not be forcing a Soldier to do push-ups... however, some of the posts I’ve read on here imply down-right disrespect. Like it or not, the military is subject to civilian authority... the president and Congress. Military and government employees are meant to work together and the highest levels of military authority comes from the Sec Def and resperctve Service Secretary’s. Perhaps a better question to ask is why would a civilian try to drop a Soldier? Silly, but unless it was a random act of abuse then the Soldier did something warranting corrective action? As some one who both served as a Soldier and now a GS who has rated Soldier I can say, I would never do such a thing... which has more to do with professionalism and maturity, and understanding where to drawl the line... I would and do have the authority to make sure the Soldier received some corrective training by ensuring the corrective action was issued by one with the authority to do so... This question applies more to Soldiers serving at the unit level or installation level. Those assigned to Staff jobs at the DOD or DA level are assigned to a command specifically for ADCON and administrative action... they don’t train with the unit, don’t PT with the unit, and don’t report unless, under most circumstances they require some type of UCMJ and then that commander works with the civilian supervisor to make sure it happens.

Response by SGT Stephen George made Dec 31 at 2017 5:56 PM

2017-12-31T17:56:06-05:00

A professional soldier ...a real leader not a manager ...would stop that BS immediately, by any means necessary.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Dec 31 at 2017 5:59 PM

2017-12-31T17:59:35-05:00

Outside of the President, Secretary of the Service in Question, I really don't see how they could.

Response by PO1 Andrew Cabral made Dec 31 at 2017 6:02 PM

2017-12-31T18:02:01-05:00

NO!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2017 7:41 PM

2017-12-31T19:41:17-05:00

Civilians should stay in there lane.

Response by CPT William Dean Sr. made Dec 31 at 2017 7:41 PM

2017-12-31T19:41:26-05:00

Their is only one civilian that is in the military chain of command. He is the commander in chief.

Response by SSG John Farvour made Dec 31 at 2017 8:53 PM

2017-12-31T20:53:45-05:00

I would tell him to get lost. And if he told my soldiers to do push-ups I’d tell him to leave my area of training!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2017 9:22 PM

2017-12-31T21:22:04-05:00

I don't know what's worse, the idea causing them to think it's their power to abuse. Or for the soldier to think that the civilian has that power to begin with... Reason #594 why I got out......

Response by PO1 Tharin Young made Jan 1 at 2018 12:07 AM

2018-01-01T00:07:02-05:00

Not only is it completely out of line for a civilian to make such a demand. But such a confrontation should be reported up your chain of command so the civilian can be set straight.

Response by GySgt Durwin Hanson made Jan 1 at 2018 12:24 AM

2018-01-01T00:24:19-05:00

No way

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2018 12:54 AM

2018-01-01T00:54:16-05:00

I never understood being ordered to do pushups in the first place. I had an Army MSgt tell me to do pushups once, when I was a SSgt... Long story follows after that (doesn't involve pushups).

Response by SSG Stanley Biggs made Jan 1 at 2018 4:12 AM

2018-01-01T04:12:24-05:00

What kind of 'clusterfuck' is this picture supposed to be representing ???

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2018 4:44 AM

2018-01-01T04:44:05-05:00

No..fuck him

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jan 1 at 2018 9:15 AM

2018-01-01T09:15:50-05:00

NO! Push-ups are for corrective training in a training environment, not a corrective action through all of the Military. First things first the GS Grade is a government service Grade Not active duty rank using physical training like this with out the knowledge of Health and welfare of the individual would be dangerous. The act of anyone Putting a Senior NCO or Jr. Officer down for push-ups is Disrespectful of the Rank and the individual, If the GS thinks some corrective training is need they should contact the chain of command. This kind of Training is reserved as a active duty Training tool not a toy for someone to play with. IMHO

Response by SGT William R Payton Sr. made Jan 1 at 2018 9:33 AM

2018-01-01T09:33:42-05:00

AATW 1ST SGT

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Jan 1 at 2018 11:06 AM

2018-01-01T11:06:41-05:00

Had a Annapolis cadet try to make me salute him. He got the bird and I walked off. He wasn't commissioned, let alone actually in the military at that point. Civilians, except for members of the government, have no place to be telling us what we need to be doing.

Response by SSG Art Osvold made Jan 1 at 2018 11:15 AM

2018-01-01T11:15:49-05:00

I was that crusty old 23 year SSG that became the SME in a lot of different areas. I have dealt with a multitude of people. I have never tolerated civilians sticking their nose where it didn't belong. Had I ever came across this, I would have posed him/ her off and not given a shit. They would have heard the same thing that I've said to a lot of people, stay in your lane.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2018 11:27 AM

2018-01-01T11:27:34-05:00

I’d say no! He has no authority and needs to let go of the military! I was also threatened by a civilian who was a retired E7! I said to him key word “retired” E7! Civilians aren’t pushing my ass around!

Response by Sgt Scott McCleland made Jan 1 at 2018 1:16 PM

2018-01-01T13:16:44-05:00

Not a civy...however, a Drill Instructor yes...we did so many that they went to leg lifts...push ups we did one handed on finger tips....lol

Response by SPC Chad Mulkey made Jan 1 at 2018 2:25 PM

2018-01-01T14:25:42-05:00

No powers over soldiers, even as a low enlisted I knew that one

Response by Sgt Edgar Rockwell made Jan 1 at 2018 2:45 PM

2018-01-01T14:45:39-05:00

Response by Sgt Edgar Rockwell made Jan 1 at 2018 2:47 PM

2018-01-01T14:47:14-05:00

Only military that is senior to you

Response by SGT Dominic Montoya made Jan 1 at 2018 3:40 PM

2018-01-01T15:40:36-05:00

As an NCO I would have laughed at this civilian. As a junior soldier I would have told the guy to f*** off

Response by TSgt Timothy Ryburn made Jan 1 at 2018 5:14 PM

2018-01-01T17:14:42-05:00

The simple answer...No! The long answer...Hell No!!!

Response by PFC Douglas Stutz made Jan 1 at 2018 7:58 PM

2018-01-01T19:58:18-05:00

ok it's simply put... not just NO... BUT HELL TO THE FUCK NO! iifin i had some PFC(Private Fucking Civilian) try to order me to do a push-up when i was in.. i probably would have laughed in his face! and if this CIVILIAN would have pushed the issue... my response: "Sir/Ma'am.. would you please take an Aeronautical intercourse at a motivated perforated piece of pastry! (laymens terms ... take a flying fuck at a rolling dough-nut) nuff said!

Response by SGT Frank Allen made Jan 1 at 2018 8:16 PM

2018-01-01T20:16:08-05:00

Granted, as both a Cavalry Scout and in administrative positions I could not imagine a professional environment where this would be acceptable other than a troop/company level training. It would have to be a very awkward environment to work.

I have been the only military person in an entire directorate and I have had civilian raters and senior raters at the same time. I think this would have been an opportunity to "do right" instead of "be right". I have always felt that it is more important to maintain military bearing than to prove a point and risk embarrassing my command or leadership. This is the same type of discipline that I teach and expect from those whom I lead.

Response by CPT Robert Bretherick made Jan 1 at 2018 8:29 PM

2018-01-01T20:29:56-05:00

Not in my Army. He is like a Doctor with rank of Captain. Has no authority except related to medical. Told several civilians kiss off. A Corporal has more command authority than a Doctor.

Response by Maj Thomas Venable made Jan 1 at 2018 8:49 PM

2018-01-01T20:49:19-05:00

No GS has any UCMJ authority over military members. However, military members can be insubordinate to a civilian authority and receive punishment for it, but it must be administered by a higher grade military authority. Push ups form a GS would not be considered a lawful order and refusing them would be the correct answer.

Response by Nicole Thomas made Jan 1 at 2018 9:50 PM

2018-01-01T21:50:32-05:00

No I wouldn't believe so. They better. Be in a Military uniform before they even think about ordering a soldier to do anything. They are Civil Servants, not soldiers

Response by MAJ Alan Montgomery made Jan 1 at 2018 9:59 PM

2018-01-01T21:59:20-05:00

Only if they are wearing the uniform, otherwise it would be a good idea to bulk up first

Response by SGT Hans Fritzgerald made Jan 2 at 2018 12:59 AM

2018-01-02T00:59:26-05:00

Absolutely not.

Response by LtCol Mark Halferty made Jan 2 at 2018 4:19 AM

2018-01-02T04:19:58-05:00

You gotta be shittin' me Pyle!

Response by SSG Kenny Wright made Jan 2 at 2018 4:20 AM

2018-01-02T04:20:24-05:00

"Some" instructors at "some" schools.

Response by PO3 Tom Adams made Jan 2 at 2018 8:12 AM

2018-01-02T08:12:43-05:00

As far as I know no civilian has the authority to ORDER any MILITARY MEMBER. Of course you have those civilians under obumma that still think their gods. Which automatically deserve to be ASS KICKED.

Response by SSG Tim Thornton made Jan 2 at 2018 9:35 AM

2018-01-02T09:35:04-05:00

When I worked with civilians in the USMC, the proper way was for the civilian to go through the chain of command if there was a problem and it would be dealt with but by no means were they are command.

Response by SGT Daniel Price made Jan 2 at 2018 10:52 AM

2018-01-02T10:52:11-05:00

Hahahahaha! Maybe in their dreams. DoD civilians do not have authority to impose corrective actions upon a uniformed/un-uniformed soldier. They are NOT categorized under the UCMJ as a superior commissioned or non-commissioned Officer therefore cannot give direct orders or legal directives afforded by the articles of the UCMJ. Now if the officers appointed above you commissioned or not give you orders to follow their directive to include corrective actions them you are not disobeying the DoD civilian but your immediate chain of command and can be held accountable. 99.99999% of COs and NCOs would gladly feed a DoD civilian rectally inserted boot leather before giving them authorizing to physically correct their soldiers. It's bad practice and breaks down the chain of command at the lowest level. A good CO/NCO will not let anyone correct their soldiers above squad/team level supervisor. You keep corrections at the absolute lowest level to help secure trust, discipline and moral. I have gone ballistic on a CSM for smoking my soldiers as an E5. Did I get my ass smoked? Fuck yeah I did, did I get an article 15? Fuck no, I was in the right as much as the CSM was in the wrong. Always protect your soldiers like they are your kids, never be afraid to go toe to toe with anyone about correcting your soldiers without first consulting you. ESPECIALLY DoD civilians, give them an inch and they will try to take over the whole brigade. NCOs are the backbone but the soldiers are the power behind the military, take care of them or everything crumbles around you.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jan 2 at 2018 5:00 PM

2018-01-02T17:00:46-05:00

That penny is around here somewhere so keep looking for it!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2018 7:12 PM

2018-01-02T19:12:24-05:00

When hell freezes over. Since when does a soldier take orders from a civilian? I worked with civilians in a hospital and many of them weren't worth the space they took up. I had one chew me out in front of a patient for something stupid. I didn't care if she was an officer in the reserves she was still a civilian and not officially on duty in a reserve capacity. I told her how am I supposed to get any respect from these AIT trainees if she's going to give me a dress down in front of them. When I was in the army I don't know anyone enlisted or an officer who liked civilians. I know I didn't. I had to deal with them at Fort Lee and Fort Ord, but I usually ignored them. I take my orders from someone wearing a uniform not a civilian pretending to be important.

Response by SSG Charlie Davis made Jan 2 at 2018 7:42 PM

2018-01-02T19:42:16-05:00

First, I would question what egregious infraction would have had to occur in the presence of this ranking GS-Civilian that I would require his or her immediate attention to administer corporal or corrective discipline. Personally, if I was the perceived subordinate, I would remain polite, maintain a military bearing and courtesy in the presence of the civilian and any entourage with them, provide my full name, rank and service number and the name and rank of my immediate superior in the chain of command. Then with full and genuine military courtesy, dismiss myself from the situation and carry on. This would force the civilian to bring his or her concerns to the soldiers immediate command to address the issue(s) in the proper manner and setting - just sayin. . . Second, some years ago, one morning early, I pulled over a vehicle heading towards the main gate of our marine base about 15 mph over the posted limit. No real carelessness was observed. This newly minted 02 jumped out of his vehicle and approached me as I was getting out of my vehicle. I assumed newly minted 'cause he only had a National Defense Ribbon and two weapons qualification medals: Sharpshooter - Rifle and Marksman - Pistol. Cars were heading into the main gate and obviously slowing to witness the action and probably wanted see who my victim was. This 02 was beside himself about being stopped (for speeding no less) outside the main gate in front of his "people" causing him embarrassment. While he could have turned into the last side street avoiding the attention he was receiving, he chose to stop 100 feet prior to the boundary fence. The 02 was late for formation (he said) and was delayed in the town traffic causing him to attempt to make up his time on a straight road leading in to the base. In his final attempt to mitigate his situation, the blurted out, "I'm and officer in the United States Marine Corps," and intimated by his body language that I was showing him (hands on the hips thing) no respect. In what I felt was my best act of genuine courtesy, I said, "Well sir, I do recognize your rank and military authority, but out here - I'm the officer." He said not a word after that and took a warning for exceeding the speed limit on the boulevard leading into the base while exhibiting a poor example for those other marines heading in to the base. He was flabbergasted over the fact that he received only a warning* for his speeding. As he was walking back to his car, he stopped suddenly and looked back at me, then got in his car and drove into the base. In the officers comments section I wrote: "Lt. not wearing his cover while outside in uniform." I felt it was a good trade-off because it took me a little over ten minutes to fill out that warning card. Justice was served and no one got hurt.
* Back then, a warning was only a preprinted 3X5 card in which the original was given to the violator - not judicial and no record is maintained. Sort of a public contact type card.

Response by LTJG Charles Vroman made Jan 3 at 2018 12:02 PM

2018-01-03T12:02:50-05:00

Not only no, but HELL NO!!! Get that Civil Service worker out of the space ASAP!! Any Senior NCO or Officer that permits this is not deserving of their rank and should be in forfeit of such.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Jan 3 at 2018 12:50 PM

2018-01-03T12:50:29-05:00

would have laughed and tactfully chewed out that civilian... What an egotistical maniac! It is people like this that get a little authoritative power and let it get to their heads.

Response by MSG Micheal P Floyd Jr made Jan 3 at 2018 2:06 PM

2018-01-03T14:06:11-05:00

GS Civilian D.O.D. employees have Military Rank. GS1 = Pvt E-1, while GS10 holds the Commission Rank of 1LT. GS 11-12 holds the Commission Rank of Captain and GS 13 is actually a Major. GS 14 holds the Commission Rank of "LTC", and what would GS 15 be? Colonel.
https://www.federalpay.org/article/civilian-to-military-rank

Civilian to Military Rank - FederalPay.org

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Jan 3 at 2018 7:12 PM

2018-01-03T19:12:39-05:00

I would hope GS-15 is too busy for such minor stuff. I do not see many COLs implementing push up discipline. Both are paid to do other work. NCOs give push up work. I had problems with KATUSAs a couple of time when I was a GS-12, and a Retired soldier. So, I went to the ROK SGTMAJ. Next day KATUSA was a super star and good solider. Never had any more problems. (His bruises went away in less than a week.) Smart leaders know how to apply pressure and where to go.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Jan 3 at 2018 11:44 PM

2018-01-03T23:44:38-05:00

Only on his wife

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2018 10:44 AM

2018-01-04T10:44:19-05:00

Definitely not. Someone got punked....

Response by Col Robert Wallace made Jan 4 at 2018 2:07 PM

2018-01-04T14:07:14-05:00

Although I am not a member of JAG office, I have never, repeat never, seen/read/heard of an regulation, directive or any authority document by the DOD that would allow a civilian, no matter what GS level, to demand/expect a military person, no matter what rank, to do push ups, or any other punishment. The GS 10-15 may be the soldier's department head but the most he is allowed to do is to write an unsatisfactory report on the soldier's behavior. If the pushup demand was actually made, the soldier should go through his chain of command to report the incident, ignore the demand until there is any proof that such authority exists.

Response by SSG Ralph Belander made Jan 4 at 2018 4:09 PM

2018-01-04T16:09:57-05:00

As I GS I have even rated military officers as the immediate supervisor and still did not have any form of command authority over them. Any attempt by a dirt bag GS to make it otherwise should be quashed by chain of command. Important to note that GS to military "rank equivalents" are for purposes of protocol only (seating at official functions, parking, military lodging ect).

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jan 4 at 2018 5:04 PM

2018-01-04T17:04:48-05:00

Reads tome like some Civilian had a cranial rectal inversion prior to making a dumb demand like that.. geez!

Response by Andrew Paladino made Jan 4 at 2018 5:19 PM

2018-01-04T17:19:22-05:00

State Department Officers are commissioned by the President of the United States. The POTUS is the Commander in Chief. That's who gave them their power. Just food for thought.

Response by SSG Anthony Balkas made Jan 4 at 2018 7:30 PM

2018-01-04T19:30:54-05:00

Ohh hell to the no!!!

Response by Steve Reeves made Jan 4 at 2018 9:27 PM

2018-01-04T21:27:34-05:00

This is a joke right? 3 years overseas as a gs-14 I would never have dreamed giving an order to anyone in uniform. That wasn't my job. And quite frankly I figure if their CO found about it I'd be in trouble. Most civilians have no Authority in that capacity. The secretary of the Navy might be able to do that, but it's more likely he would cause it to be done.

Response by COL John Hudson made Jan 5 at 2018 8:33 AM

2018-01-05T08:33:11-05:00

As a retired 0-6, the State Dept. made me a 'diplomat' and shipped me off to the PRT in Anbar Province, Iraq. I worked directly with the Governor of Anbar and his Iraqi staff for their electrical infrastructure province-wide. As a civilian, I reported directly to the PRT Team Leader, another State Dept. employee. The military 0-6 there worked in coordination with the PRT Team Leader (as Deputy) to direct the Military personnel there doing Military functions and pen their (OER/NCOER) military performance records. I did not salute any of them, nor did they salute me - there was no policy or requirement to do so. I did not work for, nor report directly to any military person - we worked together as team members and shared information and results. We had one lug-head Major who thought he ran the show. He tried throwing his weight around and had a piece of his back side torn out when one of the civilian PRT Senior Project Managers handed it back to him in an impressive display of verbal virtuosity that peeled paint off our office wall !!! A Reserve LTC was called up and mobilized to our PRT. Same attitude and ideas - where he got them I have no idea, but he bragged he would 'fire' and or 'replace' us...you get the idea. I invited him to breakfast so we could talk and sort out his function and manner of interaction with us - an invitation he skipped. The next morning, he appeared at our office door, loudly shouted out my name, "JOHN" with a smirk on his face which interrupted everyone there. Walking to my desk, I politely asked him to sit down. I informed him I had two names...John, which he screamed out at the door, disturbing our work, and H....., John, full Colonel, US Army, Retired. Turning white in the face with embarrassment, he stuttered, "I didn't know you were a Colonel." I told him he forced me to reveal something that never should have been necessary, and that if he continued to act in the manner he did, both of us would be in front of the first 0-7 in his chain of command discussing how quickly he would be returning back to the states. That ended any further friction from his area, but the point of this discourse is to highlight the continuing misunderstanding of any and all relationships between military and civilians working in the same area. My advice to all concerned finding themselves in similar circumstances is to fully understand their function and 'interaction' requirement, then sit down with their counterparts and have an open, honest, CALM discussion about how to go about their business including what is expected from both sides of the fence. JCH

Response by PO1 Michael Connelly made Jan 5 at 2018 3:18 PM

2018-01-05T15:18:27-05:00

I'm retired from one of the three Naval Services. This is utter and absolute silliness!!!! What is the Army's fixation with making someone do push-ups even one day after graduating from Boot Camp?
This reminds me of the day I was reporting to an advanced ordnance and electronics school and saw guys buffing a concrete floor (after having laid wax).

Never in my 23 years in the military have I ever seen someone do ANYTHING to concrete other than paint it (and even painting it is kinda silly, but it does preserve it from decomposing over the years).

Punishment in the "other services" starts with a "dressing down" or chewing the buttocks of someone that requires an "@$$ chewing". Some of the very BEST "Butt-Chewings" I've witnessed or heard about were administered by E-7's through E-9's for those Junior Enlisted (E-1 through E6) and O6's sure can correct an O1's attitude with just a few choice words...

Pushups? Really?

Response by Marlene Hessler made Jan 5 at 2018 5:31 PM

2018-01-05T17:31:45-05:00

Not just no, but HELL NO.
Under what authority.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2018 7:30 PM

2018-01-05T19:30:22-05:00

Seems like that GS employee has nothing better to do or has major issues going on. If he or she isn't bored or not being employed properly you can always go to his boss and inform them. I am sure their boss would take really good care of him or her...

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2018 11:53 PM

2018-01-06T23:53:54-05:00

NO! They may be equivalent to whatever in military ranks but come on now we wear the uniform for a reason and there not so unless they’re busting their ass and doing what we do they have no authority to tell you to push

Response by Sgt Charles Malcom made Jan 7 at 2018 8:26 PM

2018-01-07T20:26:21-05:00

NO, no, and no. The only civilian I know that could order military personnel to do pushups does not carry a GS code. He does, however, occupy the White House and his first name is President.

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Jan 8 at 2018 2:54 PM

2018-01-08T14:54:23-05:00

No. Civilians cannot order other civilians to do push-ups, so there is no reason to expect that they can order military members either.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2018 8:46 PM

2018-01-08T20:46:35-05:00

An NCO can have authority over any DOD civilian, GS 1-8, but any civilian, GS 9-15 civilian can have authority over an NCO. This means that a corporal though CSM can rate a GS 1-8, but a GS 9-15 can rate any enlisted Soldier. There are tables detailing which GS level can rate officers and vice-versa. However, civilians do not have authority to perform corrective actions or enact UCMJ punishments. There are provision that allow DOD SES civilians to take command over military units and while in command they can execute command authority to include enacting UCMJ. However, this has rarely been done and is usually on direct appointment by the President. When these provisions are not in place no DOD civilian can order a Soldier to perform push-ups. This becomes a bit muddled once Department of State gets involved. Federal law makes the ambassador to a nation the actual commander of all U.S. federal employees (to include military forces) stationed abroad except in times of war. Some JAG officers I have talked to interpret this as the ambassador having UCMJ authority while others do not and claim that they have supervisor authority, but not UCMJ authority. It seems DOS likes to make anything they can complicated and difficult for the DOD.

Response by SCPO Henry Rustmann made Jan 10 at 2018 9:28 PM

2018-01-10T21:28:06-05:00

That is BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by Sgt Tammy Wallace made Jan 11 at 2018 4:45 PM

2018-01-11T16:45:05-05:00

HA! That's a funny question. Of course the answer is not only no, but HECK NO...I would have prayed for an opportunity like this while I was a salty ol SGT...I would have had fun with that GS :)

Response by Joe Chretien made Jan 12 at 2018 10:48 AM

2018-01-12T10:48:31-05:00

Before answering the question, I would have to ask if it is rhetorical or somehow based on an incident or near incident. If rhetorical, I would wonder if it was not designed to create discord and is not a serious question. If not rhetorical, the answer is so obvious…

Response by SSG Karl Fowler made Jan 12 at 2018 6:16 PM

2018-01-12T18:16:16-05:00

Absolutly NOT

Response by SSG Karl Fowler made Jan 12 at 2018 6:28 PM

2018-01-12T18:28:00-05:00

I retired as a MILTECH and the one thing that they stress if you work here full time as a civilian you can not tell a soldier what to do you may give him or her advise, When you are here in uniform you may give advice to the civilian and not tell them what to do.i saw this happen one time when one of our civ. put on his uniform came back on the hanger floor and started to tell the civ.what to do,WRONG He was corrected and it never happened again

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jan 12 at 2018 6:32 PM

2018-01-12T18:32:46-05:00

NO, But Be CAREFUL!
A High Ranking DA Civilian has more power than the Chief of Staff because no one can fire them without dealing with the union. Commanders come and go, but a vested DA Civilian stays until death.

Response by PO1 Tom Follis made Jan 13 at 2018 3:07 PM

2018-01-13T15:07:50-05:00

Real simple. Never happen

Response by MSgt Raymond Hall made Jan 14 at 2018 1:48 PM

2018-01-14T13:48:38-05:00

As a retired SNCO, and an active GS the answer is clearly no - with one exception. If the GS is an instructor and the purpose is for PT and/or MT purposes then yes. Civilians GS are not here to enforce disciplinary standards, that is solely an active duty on active duty responsibility. Not only that as a GS I have far more important things to do. Address the issue, report the issue, and go back to my duties. The military will take care of its self.

Response by Sgt Greg Puckett made Jan 14 at 2018 6:35 PM

2018-01-14T18:35:22-05:00

There are TWO civilians I would pushups for. The President on the United States and General Mattis. The President because he is my Commander in Chief and General Mattis because OH SHIT..ITS General Mattis

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2018 9:57 PM

2018-01-14T21:57:23-05:00

That GS civilian must had flashbacks when him or her use to wear the uniform. I've heard of some soldiers, most high ranking falling under civilian authority since GS 13-15 are equivalent to field grade officers in uniform.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2018 5:13 PM

2018-01-15T17:13:40-05:00

There are several civilians in direct command of military forces. Under Secretary of the Army comes to mind. Civilian Aides to the Secretary of the Army as well. They each have their own flag that goes with them, same as a General Officer. Civilians may legally be in charge of soldiers. If it's the PBO on base, a contracted instructor, etc.. politely refuse. If they insist, laugh till your sides burst.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Jan 16 at 2018 5:22 PM

2018-01-16T17:22:52-05:00

I have never had a DoD civilian try to impose punishment on me, or have I seen it done. I did have DoD contractors conduct out MOSQ while stationed in HI. They were all retired Senior NCO's and warrant officers. They also showed us respect and vice versa. Each class had an E-8 as class leader. One of the DOD guys a retired W-4 asked what the protocol was if he had problems. The MSG stood up and said tell me. He then asked what would happen? The MSG told everyone to step to the side of their desk, and ordered us to the front leaning rest position. He then had us stand up and return to our seats. The retired Chief said, "Well that is a hell of a good plan." That was the best MOSQ course I ever attended. Only three civilians have command authority. That is Secretary of branch, SECDEF and POTUS. They are in our direct chain of command, and they have full authority under the UCMJ, and can impose discipline. Although having worked under General Mattis when he was a colonel, I would say even if he wasn't in any military position I would drop just out of fear, and I'm retired now!!!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2018 12:59 AM

2018-01-17T00:59:01-05:00

no. he should be reported for this.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2018 7:53 PM

2018-01-17T19:53:00-05:00

For Soldiers, the only civilians with UCMJ authority that I am aware of are the President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of the Army. However, certain civilians may order you to do things within the scope of their job. As examples, if a civilian police officer on base tells you to pull over, you better do it. If you commit a crime off post, your chain of command may turn you over to civilian authorities and you are under civilian authority. If this DAC is just dropping people because he/she is frustrated, I'd tell them to go see the commander and notify your CoC.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2018 10:20 AM

2018-01-18T10:20:23-05:00

Hell no. While some civilians are raters and assigned supervisors of military personnel, they do not have any authority to administer corrective action in the form of pushups, running, etc.

Response by Sgt William Coffee made Jan 18 at 2018 11:03 AM

2018-01-18T11:03:57-05:00

NOT just NO, but fuck NO ! !

Response by SFC Quinn Chastant made Jan 18 at 2018 11:16 AM

2018-01-18T11:16:08-05:00

Retiree chiming in, I'm DoD & Reserve retired. Civilians have limited say over Soldiers or Cadets correction actions. If the civilian is in a teaching position he or she may be given some authorization to have troops stand in a class environment to keep them awake, as for having them drop & knock out 20, no. The civilian's best course of action is to have the soldier's NCO (or TAC NCO/Officer if a Cadet) administer corrective action.

As a uniformed DoD employee, in the advent of a major safety issue, there were other actions I could take, and dropping them to perform pushups would of been the least likely outcome. GS0081 Firefighter.

Response by 2LT William Germelman made Jan 18 at 2018 11:37 AM

2018-01-18T11:37:09-05:00

umm, no. topic is so silly it doesn't need much response.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Jan 18 at 2018 12:13 PM

2018-01-18T12:13:35-05:00

If I saw a civilian, even a rated one giving an officer or a senior enlisted "physical correction", I would abandon all hope because it would mean that I had crossed over into a parallel universe where impossible crap was happening and the physical laws of the universe no longer applied! I would be more amazed if the senior NCO didn't rip the guys head off of his neck and pour copious amounts of his personal human excrement in the gaping maw......
Ha Ha (whew)..okay...back to work....

Response by PO1 Joseph Glennon made Jan 19 at 2018 10:03 PM

2018-01-19T22:03:13-05:00

Only in a situation where two phrases are fulfilled:
"Positional authority" and "job description"

If the civilian has the responsibility and the authority to make the demand and expect it to be followed, then yes.

That being said, I have *never* seen that be the case in the real world. Even civilian contractors for physical fitness (read that as P.T.), whose job it is to teach the correct way to do the exercises, and dictate the number of reps for muscular growth, don't have that authority.

Response by 1SG Carlos E Bonet made Jan 20 at 2018 2:19 AM

2018-01-20T02:19:51-05:00

Not legal, not part of the joes chain of command, if that civilian wants to play army, he should join the military or stayed in uniform

Response by LT John Stevens made Jan 20 at 2018 4:45 PM

2018-01-20T16:45:04-05:00

I don't know about legal, but I do not believe it is legal. However, it is certainly inappropriate for a civilian to give such "orders" to any uniformed personnel. Additionally, I do not believe it would be either illegal or inappropriate for the soldier (sailor, airman, or marine) to politely decline to follow such an "order."

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2018 6:44 PM

2018-01-20T18:44:52-05:00

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 20 at 2018 10:03 PM

2018-01-20T22:03:41-05:00

I won't do it. I respect them and their position, but leave Soldiering to Solders.

Response by COL Dave Sims made Jan 21 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-01-21T14:28:08-05:00

My first civilian supervisor was a retired Army O-6 who had fought in the Philippines during WWII..he became my mentor and one of my best friends. The whole military side he never got involved in...he knew that I knew what I had to do. Got myself, as a staff officer (I was always better as a commander) in trouble by "sin of sins" telling the truth - and he was there. He was totally supportive - because he knew I had done my homework. True story - I had a two star show up at my desk...got my attention...said he wanted to see what I "looked like". I had recommended eliminating one of his major programs. I'm thinking, me a lowly major - I am totally screwed ..my supervisor laughed. His motto was do the right thing. Do not worry about the pushups...do the right thing...don't worry about the idiots. We are warriors - many of them are bureaucrats. Charge on !

Response by LCDR Robert S. made Jan 21 at 2018 3:22 PM

2018-01-21T15:22:31-05:00

Is it legal for them to demand it? Yes, because they can demand anything they want.
Is it legal for them to expect it? Yes, because the law has no power over their expectations.
Is the soldier legally required to meet his demands or expectations? No. There's nothing in the law that compels a soldier to do pushups for a civilian, unless it's specifically part of the civilian's job description (a fitness trainer or physical therapist, for example, and even then, the legal compulsion is because the soldier's chain of command said "Go do physical therapy" or "Report to the gym and follow the training instructions of the fitness trainer there.").

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2018 6:53 AM

2018-01-23T06:53:29-05:00

That's a negative Ghostrider. Unless someone has "Commanding" in their signature block, they have no command/UCMJ authority.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2018 10:57 AM

2018-01-23T10:57:37-05:00

Simply put, no. We may have to respect Army civilians as if they are officers but respect goes both ways both in and out of uniform.

Response by SPC Karl Kelz made Jan 23 at 2018 4:11 PM

2018-01-23T16:11:33-05:00

If I were the soldier and told to drop by the civilian...i would have pulled down my pants and dropped a deuce.

Response by 1stLt Bill Quillin made Jan 24 at 2018 5:26 AM

2018-01-24T05:26:53-05:00

No. A Gs has no place in the Chain of Command. They are CIVILIANS.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jan 24 at 2018 3:39 PM

2018-01-24T15:39:38-05:00

I would say no. This reminds me in Karl Rove's autobiography, he talks about being dropped for pushups in the White House by Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Response by SSG Dale London made Jan 25 at 2018 1:01 AM

2018-01-25T01:01:10-05:00

The only civilians with authority over soldiers are the ones wearing badges, are addressed as Your Honor, Mr/Madam Secretary, or Mr President. If you don't fit into one of these categories then shut up and sit down. You're embarrassing yourself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2018 11:07 AM

2018-01-25T11:07:10-05:00

Absolutely NOT. The civilians have a line that they can not cross, just like its not acceptable for us to demand anything from the civilians that is not part of their job description or contract. The fact that this is even a questions show that someone with rank has failed and allowed that standard to be held. (I say that with the utmost respect)

Response by SFC Bob Barnes made Jan 26 at 2018 12:15 PM

2018-01-26T12:15:37-05:00

I would tell him to stick it in his ear.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2018 1:41 PM

2018-01-26T13:41:25-05:00

There is no regulation that states a civilian has the right or authority to make a soldier do corrective training and I’m pretty sure no contract the government has with contractors will allow for civilian to impose corrective training for soldiers

Response by Robert Leviton made Jan 28 at 2018 12:13 PM

2018-01-28T12:13:01-05:00

Legal no! Stupid, hell yes!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2018 3:29 AM

2018-01-29T03:29:42-05:00

Lol. Why is this even a question? Trying to get NCO's mad?

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Jan 29 at 2018 7:31 AM

2018-01-29T07:31:11-05:00

I had some former Marine, who was a civilian, jump on me while in Iraq. As an E4 I just looked at him and laughed. If you don't have a uniform ok and that tank is higher than mine, kiss off

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Jan 29 at 2018 12:37 PM

2018-01-29T12:37:33-05:00

Nope. That privilege is reserved for that Soldiers military Chan of command/supervision. The DAC who does order push-ups is an idiot. And yes I'm old school.

Response by MSG Richard C Finley made Jan 30 at 2018 5:35 PM

2018-01-30T17:35:55-05:00

to make a very good answer to the H--- No

Response by SFC Gary Guyer made Feb 2 at 2018 1:09 PM

2018-02-02T13:09:00-05:00

As a former Senior NCO, civilians had no authority over Soldiers especially for disciplinary issues.
As a DoD Civilian working with Active Duty Soldiers It is not my place to Discipline a Soldier, but report any shortcomings to his/her NCO.

Response by Capt Al Parker made Feb 3 at 2018 8:37 PM

2018-02-03T20:37:41-05:00

Hell no, the President is the only civilian that can give a military person an order. Otherwise it would have to follow the chain of command. The civilians ruled by politics. Unless itwasdoneasa JOKE!

Response by SFC John Hatton made Feb 4 at 2018 11:07 AM

2018-02-04T11:07:04-05:00

Response by GySgt Thomas Lieb made Feb 11 at 2018 12:42 AM

2018-02-11T00:42:41-05:00

Like the 1SG, when I was a (active) GySgt I would have put my got up the ass of any civilian F***ing with “my” Marines

Response by SGT William Benson made Feb 12 at 2018 2:46 PM

2018-02-12T14:46:27-05:00

NO! Emphatically: NO! If a civilian employee has a problem with a Soldier, then he or she can take it to that Soldiers chain of command, and the Chain of Command can deal with it.

Response by SGT Thomas Bentley made Feb 13 at 2018 3:42 PM

2018-02-13T15:42:20-05:00

Not even on their best day. They have absolutely no authority. I they have an issue with a soldier they need to go to the leadership. PERIOD!!

Response by SFC James Wesser made Feb 15 at 2018 8:12 PM

2018-02-15T20:12:32-05:00

Fuck no!!!!! They have zero authority.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Feb 15 at 2018 9:18 PM

2018-02-15T21:18:13-05:00

No. Civilians, unless they are a Service Secretary, the Secretary of Defense or the President, have NO authority over military personnel.

Response by CPO Mark Robinson made Feb 15 at 2018 9:41 PM

2018-02-15T21:41:06-05:00

I worked over at a Submarine repair facility as a civilian inspector and we had active duty sailors working in the production shops performing nuclear repairs. They worked directly for and were accountable to a civilian supervisor who was a WS-10. Most of the sailors were highly motivated and actually enjoyed working for a civilian. We really are one big team. As for doing pushups, thats just too funny to even think about.

Response by Arsenio Ibay made Feb 18 at 2018 4:24 AM

2018-02-18T04:24:30-05:00

Diplomacy on sticking to your guns and covering your ass - respectfully decline and explain why. If the GS makes a stink, he will inevitably be set straight on expectations, and your response will be unimpeachable. If anyone is going to spoil the working relationship, let him dig the grave and be humbled.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Feb 24 at 2018 2:10 AM

2018-02-24T02:10:24-05:00

Discovered that a new hire in our office who was a retired Naval Reserve Officer told a SGT who walked in to do pushups. Since I was the Project HR Manager as well as a retired First Sergeant, I did three things: I found out the name of the SGT and called his CSM to commend him for his tact and patience with our new idiot; I got a hold of the hiring manager who had hired this guy despite a tub of red flags that nobody told me about because they occurred in the interview with the hiring manager who was, oh yeah, the bloody Project Director answerable to Corporate and a retired Army Colonel to explain that this was not cool; and, I added it to the documentation so we could fire the guy and let him go back to his happy Orange county state of denial. We have enough problems with tin pot dictators in the service that any civilian better not try to play First Sergeant. Or Platoon leader. Not a good way to win hearts and minds of the most important group we need to win -- our own soldiers.

Response by MSG Scott Berndt made Feb 25 at 2018 10:11 PM

2018-02-25T22:11:38-05:00

No! HELL NO!! They have “0” authority over a Soldier. If they have a problem they need to take it to the Soldier’s NCO. If the NCO is worth their stripes, they will determine if there needs to be corrective action administered.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2018 12:04 AM

2018-02-26T00:04:53-05:00

I think you know the answer. Have a talk with this civilian or ask your commander to do it if they outrank you or feel uncomfortable addressing it without some top cover.

Response by Roger Hamilton made Feb 26 at 2018 4:18 AM

2018-02-26T04:18:37-05:00

Absolutely YES. Those junior leaders must be able to demonstrate that their orders can be carried out in order to reasonably expect their subordinates to follow them.

Response by CPT Thomas Cofield made Feb 27 at 2018 5:12 AM

2018-02-27T05:12:41-05:00

Umm, No. I'm a GS11, step 10 now and under no circumstances am I allowed to impose any kind of physical discipline on an Active Duty member. Any issue I have with an officer or enlisted member is brought up through his or her's change of command. If a civilian is trying to impose that you should go talk to his or her superior.

Response by SSG Steven Lemon made Feb 27 at 2018 8:00 AM

2018-02-27T08:00:04-05:00

First of all, an old school soldier like myself finds it impossible to even imagine a situation where a civilian has command control over a soldier.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 27 at 2018 8:25 AM

2018-02-27T08:25:50-05:00

Nope. There are only civilians that you are required to render salutes to or follow those kinds of orders from. The President, and the Secretaries of each of the Armed Services branches. Anyone else can kick rocks.

Response by SSgt Thomas L. made Feb 28 at 2018 7:07 PM

2018-02-28T19:07:03-05:00

There are only ever three civilians in your chain of command. Service secretary, defense secretary, and CinC. All I have to say is that if you have the Secretary of Defense over you making you do push-ups, you know you *really* fucked up.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Mar 11 at 2018 7:06 AM

2018-03-11T07:06:08-04:00

NO!!Nothing else needs to be said.

Response by Matt Moon made Mar 15 at 2018 3:33 PM

2018-03-15T15:33:34-04:00

A Government Specialty Civillan has no authority over a Service Member in the Department of Defense.

Response by PO2 Louis Fattrusso made Mar 22 at 2018 4:17 PM

2018-03-22T16:17:13-04:00

Absolutely not. Military practices and civilian practices should and must be separate issues. This would be chaotic for soldiers to understand.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Mar 23 at 2018 3:24 PM

2018-03-23T15:24:48-04:00

It all depends. There are cases where a civilian is put, temporarily, in the position normally held by a military person. In this case they are able to give orders just as the military person would. Normally does not happen at the GS level though. Where I work we had a 1 star opening that wasn't filled so the SES-2 civilian took the open slot temporarily. Everyone had to treat him as if he was in reality that 1 Star. He WAS a retired Navy Captain so he knew how to hold that position. But if he had ordered a soldier to do pushups it would have been like an Admiral had given the order. Of course if he HAD given that order it would have been in jest.

The GS employees technically outrank the military enlisted. BUT are rarely in charge of them. Like contractors. They receive guidance on what to do, day to day, but their orders come from their direct supervisor. So a GS can go to the military person's direct supervisor with a complaint and the supervisor give the order for pushups. With contractors it is a strange situation where they technically get their job from the company they work for. But the company tells them to do what we tell them, for the most part.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Mar 24 at 2018 3:54 AM

2018-03-24T03:54:50-04:00

If a GS dip wad told me to do push ups, I first tell how to get to hell and then deck him.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Mar 25 at 2018 6:16 AM

2018-03-25T06:16:09-04:00

No.

Response by CW3 Chuck Huddleston made Mar 25 at 2018 6:58 AM

2018-03-25T06:58:40-04:00

Simple answer...."No way in hell"!!!!!

Response by CPO Joe Pruner made Mar 27 at 2018 11:14 AM

2018-03-27T11:14:55-04:00

HELL NO!

Response by SgtMaj Raymond Roughton made Mar 28 at 2018 3:56 AM

2018-03-28T03:56:41-04:00

It might be legal, but it sure as hades isn't proper or appropriate. I wouldn't drop unless it was "the Law"

Response by LCDR Jerry Maurer made Mar 28 at 2018 8:58 AM

2018-03-28T08:58:37-04:00

There is a DOD instruction that requires DOD civilians to be given accommodations equivalent to their paygrade, i.e. a GS-12 should be getting sleeping quarters of an O-4. But that's it. Any DOD employee who thinks they can order troops around isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

Response by PO3 Kevin DeLong made Mar 31 at 2018 11:05 PM

2018-03-31T23:05:01-04:00

Hell no.

Response by SSG Tony Eychaner made Apr 9 at 2018 4:30 AM

2018-04-09T04:30:09-04:00

No.

Response by SSG Tony Eychaner made Apr 9 at 2018 4:41 AM

2018-04-09T04:41:56-04:00

Commanders discretion
?

Response by LCDR Jayne Garland made Apr 9 at 2018 7:37 PM

2018-04-09T19:37:19-04:00

Depending upon the situation, a GS employee can have direct supervisory authority over a military person. That said, do they have authority to order you to do push ups as a form of punishment? When it comes to discipline, it is my understanding that must be handled by the military chain of command. However, even if a civilian supervisor can't discipline a military member, they can still have authority to assign tasks and evaluate performance.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2018 2:38 PM

2018-04-10T14:38:36-04:00

the answer to your question is a definitive "NO"! and I would say to the Civilian," pound sand with your face!"

Response by SSG Brian Carpenter made Apr 15 at 2018 8:02 PM

2018-04-15T20:02:15-04:00

Had a GS trainer try this once on me as Sgt and I swear the whole room almost died laughing...I was the low rank everyone else were E-7 to O-4

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Apr 15 at 2018 9:14 PM

2018-04-15T21:14:34-04:00

Do not think they could demand it from a military service member. On the other hand the entertainment value would be significant if you advised them that with all due respect i would be happy to do some push ups if you will join me and count the cadence as we exercise.

Response by PO2 Larry Hensch made Apr 16 at 2018 7:38 PM

2018-04-16T19:38:19-04:00

When I was staitioned at Correy Station, Pensacola Florida for my "A" school,. I heard a funny story. It appeared that one of the former Base CO's wife ran the front gate, the young Marine drew his side arm and emptied it into the back of the speeding Cadillac. Gate guards for quite a while after were not issued ammo!

Response by COL David S. made Apr 16 at 2018 10:06 PM

2018-04-16T22:06:55-04:00

Absolutely not.

Response by LCDR Arthur Whittum made Apr 16 at 2018 10:09 PM

2018-04-16T22:09:00-04:00

No. What in the world was he thinking? As a former Coast Guard GS-13 branch chief I had a number of young officers working in my branch. The senior officer in that group was an LCDR (O4). If there was a military problem, I asked him to take care of it. My direct report was a Coast Guard O6, so the CoC wobbled a bit - military-civilian-military-military-civilian. But I don't recall any problems - except once when a civilian GS-14 got riffed and hopped on an empty GS-12 billet in my group. He was one of those problems you run into in leadership courses - over-zealous, meticulous to a fault (nitpicking) and so focused that he was oblivious to real world working conditions "outside his world". There was nothing I could muster to slow this guy down. Then a GS-13 slot opened in another area and split. Whew!

Response by COL Mike Walton made Apr 20 at 2018 6:38 PM

2018-04-20T18:38:54-04:00

HELL NO!! Unless that civilian was a "dual status" person like I was for a while (Military technician) AND was performing in his or her MILITARY ROLE (LTC as opposed to GS-12), HELL NO!

Response by PO1 Fred McCall made Apr 20 at 2018 9:39 PM

2018-04-20T21:39:21-04:00

It's legal for him to demand it. It's legal for him to expect it. It's legal for the service member to tell him to jam it. Does the whole 'drop and give me 20' thing actually happen after boot camp in the Army? I find that kind of odd (I was Navy, but my father was a sergeant major in the Army).

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2018 7:01 PM

2018-04-23T19:01:57-04:00

Nope. I once had a civilian order me to deny leave and recall members because they didn't submit their leave by that civilians deadline (holidays). I told them no, they told me I had to because they were the flight commander. I kindly reminded them that the leave AFI states they can approve but not deny leave.

Some civilians forget that their power came with their rank only, and now that they have no rank they have no power.

Response by 1SG Larry Taggart made May 2 at 2018 8:23 AM

2018-05-02T08:23:46-04:00

As a Retired 1SG and now currently a DA Civilian. The Answer is NO. Just as in the Orginizational Army, Civilians will not lead soldiers nor will they have the Authority over a Soldier to do Say Push Ups. Now referring to the last comment by the many 1SG's that they would put their foot up the Ass of any civilian for Such and Such. Here is your answer back. NO YOU WOULD NOT. You would Lose the battle.

Response by SPC Deon Holmes made May 3 at 2018 11:04 AM

2018-05-03T11:04:36-04:00

LMAO! HELL NO!

Response by Jim Warren made May 6 at 2018 7:25 PM

2018-05-06T19:25:17-04:00

I retired as GS 15 (equivalent 06) from DoD. While still in “active service” I held SES equivaleny to an O7 flag officer. While these equivalencies set my privileges, quarters, honors, etc. They did not place me on the chain of command of soldiers, sailors, airmen or marines. I had no right to issue them orders, and, frankly to demean them and their honorable service in anyway would have been dispicable. Yes, I served (both in uniform and out) and am proud of all that service, but I would never assume to much self importance.

Response by Maj Ted Mc Neel Sr. made May 8 at 2018 10:35 AM

2018-05-08T10:35:23-04:00

That is an illegal order as one takes an oath to obey those Officers and SNCOs appointed over him - NOT civilians I'd tell the civilian GS-10 to 16 to go straight to HELL! Major Ted C. Mc Neel Sr. USMC Retired.

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made May 8 at 2018 1:10 PM

2018-05-08T13:10:30-04:00

No it isn't. I would be sitting in a corner eating popcorn, watching the hilarity ensue.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2018 2:39 PM

2018-05-08T14:39:13-04:00

What about an instructor ?is it okay to be dropped by an instructor civilian

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 8 at 2018 2:59 PM

2018-05-08T14:59:44-04:00

not just no - but hell no - they are not vested with the authority to do any corrective action to an active duty person - they may write oer's/ncoers but disciplinary actions are not within their scope of authority.

Response by SFC Michael Bunch made May 8 at 2018 5:43 PM

2018-05-08T17:43:59-04:00

Considering, I am a former Infantry Drill Sergeant I would have to lead off with a rant about where the hell do they think as a Civilian they have the Authority the make such a request. Want someone to do Push-ups...wear a uniform, and earn the right.

Response by SFC Terry Crawford made May 9 at 2018 10:11 PM

2018-05-09T22:11:03-04:00

I would tell someone to kiss my backside

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made May 14 at 2018 10:51 AM

2018-05-14T10:51:33-04:00

I would have laughed in his face as I walked away. And if I was to see this happening while active duty would have laughed in his face and ordered that soldier to follow me as we left.

Response by MAJ James Woods made May 18 at 2018 10:46 AM

2018-05-18T10:46:57-04:00

The answer is no. GS and SES personnel may be in a position senior to the military personnel in their organizations but they are limited in the type of disciplinary actions they authorized. So physical orders like "drop and give me 20" is not authorized.

Response by SGT Michael Anglemyer made May 18 at 2018 5:23 PM

2018-05-18T17:23:40-04:00

Yes they can, but no they may not. It would be an abuse of authority and unprofessional. I don't think an NCO or Commissioned Officer should be dropped for anyone. If someone has a problem, they should counsel them behind closed doors. However, I suspect that, if it happened at all, it was a joke taken out of context, ie a retired 1SG is now a GS 12 supervising a SFC.

Response by SGT Michael Anglemyer made May 18 at 2018 5:34 PM

2018-05-18T17:34:31-04:00

A GS civilian cannot " command" an MTOE unit, but can certainly be the director of a TDA organization and administer discipline to soldiers. Dropping soldiers would be cause for an IG complaint. They don't have UCMJ authority either, but they can certainly impose discipline.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 18 at 2018 5:53 PM

2018-05-18T17:53:16-04:00

I got to ask, as I see a lot of Tropical Lightning patches in this image, do they have a Cav unit? I am guessing yes as I see spurs and Stetsons, which IMHO look awkward in that uniform. Just my opinion. Thought with the way the Amry wemnt ACU crazy they would of contract Stetson to make an ACU version Stetson for the Army to go with ACU's.

Response by SPC Joshua H. made May 21 at 2018 2:57 PM

2018-05-21T14:57:13-04:00

I honestly cannot bieve this was even a question. When I was in if a civilian tried that, I would have pointed and laughed. As a civilian now, of Insaw an idiot trying that, would have some words...this is worse than the dependas demanding stuff like this.

Response by MAJ Ralph Barnes made May 22 at 2018 4:47 PM

2018-05-22T16:47:00-04:00

I am a retired MAJ and current GS14 supervising Military personnel both officer and NCO. While I may have the ability to direct my subordinates to perform work requirements, I do not rate a salute as a civilian and it would never cross my mind to order one of my Soldiers to do push-ups for a corrective action. Army Officers and NCOs do address me as sir but I think it is more of a courtesy than a requirement. The fact is, I am here to support Soldiers, they are not here to provide me with a job. Civilians who cannot get beyond that should seek employment elsewhere. BTW I am stationed at Fort Bragg so other's experience may be different.

Response by SSG Patrick Sloan made May 26 at 2018 11:48 AM

2018-05-26T11:48:28-04:00

Two words.
Begins with an F and ends with a no!!

Response by SFC Steven Barry made May 30 at 2018 9:08 AM

2018-05-30T09:08:02-04:00

The proper response to any civilian (DoD or otherwise) is "Go to hell."

Response by SPC Carlos Rivera made May 30 at 2018 12:59 PM

2018-05-30T12:59:13-04:00

I would love to hear the story on how this even became a question.

Response by SGM Major Stroupe made May 31 at 2018 7:23 AM

2018-05-31T07:23:06-04:00

The short answer is no. There is an established military chain of command that can handle disiplanry matters.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made May 31 at 2018 8:28 AM

2018-05-31T08:28:32-04:00

No.

Response by SFC Regina Boyd made Jun 1 at 2018 2:05 PM

2018-06-01T14:05:03-04:00

Absolutely not, just like you don't have the authority to make a civil servant do push-ups! As a civil servant, if you have an issue with a military person on active duty under Title 10 USC, you report it to that military person's direct supervisor/NCOIC and let them handle it. It needs to be a justifiable issue supported by facts, not just because you don't like the person. As a military person, if there is an issue with the civil servant, direct it not only to your NCOIC, but to that civil servant's direct report (supervisor/boss). There are certain avenues to approach this. Remember, the Commander-in-Chief is a civilian as are the Secretaries of each military group.

Response by MAJ Jim Hollingsworth made Jun 2 at 2018 9:17 PM

2018-06-02T21:17:09-04:00

Actually, you outrank them.

Response by MSG Raymond Kindis made Jun 4 at 2018 2:08 PM

2018-06-04T14:08:24-04:00

Push till I get tired

Response by Capt George Kent Brashear made Jun 8 at 2018 10:20 PM

2018-06-08T22:20:08-04:00

Captain Johnson asked about the legality of such a demand. I can't answer that, but I'd like to know why he asked the question. I can't see any civilian having reached that level ever being so foolish. I can't see a colonel or general demanding that a senior NCO or junior officer do push-ups, but I'm air force and don't know what goes on in the army.

Just for kicks though, had a GS-13 demanded me to do push-ups I might have done one (if there were no junior personnel around) and then let him/her try to explain it to the wing commander.

Opening: One GS-13 slot. See civilian personnel.

Response by 1SG Angelo Villavicencio made Jun 14 at 2018 11:14 AM

2018-06-14T11:14:48-04:00

I would not even consider giving it a thought. The military take care and administer punishment to their own! DoD civilians can address their concerns to the appropriate uniformed person nearest their chain of responsibility.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Jun 14 at 2018 2:21 PM

2018-06-14T14:21:08-04:00

No. After you’re done laughing at him/her, remind that person that even though he/she may be entitled to a certain amount of respect ( depending on their job title), they have ZERO authority to demand such stupidity from you. If they still try to insist on making you do whatever it is that they’re asking you to do, then go to your chain of command for assistance.

Response by Cpl John Mathews made Jun 16 at 2018 3:41 PM

2018-06-16T15:41:28-04:00

No way on hell. If I was the soldier I would direct the civillian to my NCO if he had a complaint. If I was to conme across a Marine acting inappropriately I would quietly mention my concern to them, and in if their behavior was egregious I would talk with the senior enlisted present.

Response by SGT William Bill Turner made Jun 17 at 2018 9:59 AM

2018-06-17T09:59:48-04:00

As far as I know he has no power in that aspect even over a pvt. let alone over a senior NCO. Maybe a 2nd LT.

Response by CSM Jim Corrin made Jun 17 at 2018 12:08 PM

2018-06-17T12:08:30-04:00

Absolutely NOT !!!!!!!!

Response by CPL Sharon Fahey made Jun 20 at 2018 11:10 AM

2018-06-20T11:10:51-04:00

That was the single thing I hated the most, some fucking civilian who has control issues acting as if we worked for them. I blame the senior brass fo that, they wouldn't get away with it if someone wasn't protecting them. I reminded one civilian with an attitude that if it weren't for us they wouldn't have a job so they better step their ass back. Can't stand the civilian work force, they need to be reminded that they aren't in our uniform and they hold no rank. Similar to spouses who try to wear their SM's rank.

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Jun 24 at 2018 6:54 PM

2018-06-24T18:54:18-04:00

Please explain to me how this question even came up

Response by MSgt Donald Brookover made Jun 26 at 2018 8:58 PM

2018-06-26T20:58:42-04:00

I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Response by 1SG Tommy Griffin made Jun 27 at 2018 5:38 PM

2018-06-27T17:38:19-04:00

Civilian's do not have any authority to impose corrective actions on soldier's. I too as a 1SG would have put a boot up that civilians ass

Response by CWO4 Stan Baggett made Jun 29 at 2018 4:44 PM

2018-06-29T16:44:10-04:00

I wouldn't be able to to hold back my laughter long enough to tell him/her which way hell was and for them to take the shortest route!

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Jul 2 at 2018 9:36 AM

2018-07-02T09:36:17-04:00

Not only no but hell no.

Response by 1SG Dale Cantrell made Jul 2 at 2018 11:31 PM

2018-07-02T23:31:32-04:00

Not on my watch, if there is a reason for any of my troops to do push ups, we will do them together, on my orders Not any civilian,

Response by MSgt Brian Dady made Jul 12 at 2018 9:14 PM

2018-07-12T21:14:03-04:00

Just, no.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Jul 14 at 2018 1:48 PM

2018-07-14T13:48:56-04:00

No way. No DA Civilian whom I've ever met, at any grade, even former officers, would dare suggest such a thing. The good ones know better.

Response by Amn Joseph H. made Jul 16 at 2018 2:36 AM

2018-07-16T02:36:55-04:00

Absolutely not, civilians can request help from enlisted folks. If your not in a higher rank, even in the same uniform would ignore any order.

Response by SSG Raymond Minze made Jul 17 at 2018 9:48 AM

2018-07-17T09:48:22-04:00

Without demonstrating the bravado similar to some of the other comments; the answer to the question is simply, No it is not legal for a Dept. of Army Civilian (GS10-15) to make such a demand of a soldier. Even when a Dept. of Army Civilian is placed in a position of authority over a soldier, that person can have the responsibility of rating the soldier, but does not under any circumstances have UCMJ Authority over a person in Uniform. This doesn't mean that one can tell the civilian where to get off. There are protocols of courtesy and respect that should be shown to any civilian that is placed in a position of authority over you.

Response by SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott made Jul 17 at 2018 11:54 AM

2018-07-17T11:54:56-04:00

No way!! A civilian supervisor would be able to rate you or give instructions pertaining to the job, but does not have the authority to make you do push ups. At least not when I was in the Army back in the 70s and 80s. I appreciate the laugh though!!

Response by SGT Luke Wooster made Jul 17 at 2018 12:22 PM

2018-07-17T12:22:47-04:00

The military is civilian led. The question is tricky. What if soldiers refused to play basketball with President Obama or caddie for President Trump? Cannot say it, but you are thinking F this guy! Decline politely is your move.

Response by SGT James Mitchell made Jul 17 at 2018 12:33 PM

2018-07-17T12:33:46-04:00

When I was through AIT, it was very much expected for a Soldier to push-ups should it be demanded by a DOD civilian. I can remember when I was going The the 91Q course (Pharmacy Tech) that for the majority of the course was taught by DOD civilians. Everyday at the beginning of class, the instructor would ask asks, to see if you had studied the night before. Based on the question that the instructor asked, if you got the answer wrong, you had to do push-ups. If you refused, the drill sergeant would then pull you out of class and smoke your ass for disrespect and non-compliance to the DOD civilian instructor.

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Jul 17 at 2018 1:33 PM

2018-07-17T13:33:29-04:00

When I worked in an ER we had a nurse who happened to be a CPT in the guard. He was hired as a CIVILIAN but would constantly try to pull rank on patients and staff. It could be tricky to deal with because he was an officer but had no military related duties or positions in the workplace. When he was charge nurse he would just lay into the shift leader if they allowed the military staff to do ANYTHING without getting his approval first. Charge nurse or not, that's not how the ER was structured. If a patient "disrespected " him or disagreed with him he would start screaming at them that he was a CPT and would even try to make them stand at attention in some cases. Once he even tried to "lock up" the SFC over the department for arguing with him over who HE thought should be on which shift. He couldn't stand me bc I would politely remind him he had no military authority over me and my soldiers when he would "pull rank" in an attempt to force me/them to do what he wanted. His wife was a civilian ortho surgeon at our hospital so we couldn't get rid of him. He was very verbal that 68w were a waste of space and should be viewed as nothing more then house keeping or "go get me". At one point it got so bad our senior leaders actually pulled all 68w out of the ER for a week. That changed things for about a month. I dont know why the hospital administration let one civilian nurse cause so many problems. They never backed him with his I'm a CPT complainants, they just never dealt with it either. Leaving, usually, 1 E5 and 3 to 4 E4 and below to figure out how to deal with it without compromising patient care or military bearing.

Response by PO2 Seth Carron made Jul 17 at 2018 5:55 PM

2018-07-17T17:55:45-04:00

I've never had to deal with GS civilians trying to pull anything like that. They've always been super cool to be around.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Jul 17 at 2018 6:02 PM

2018-07-17T18:02:19-04:00

I'm a GS-12 and that is bullshit. Keep it respectful because if you swear at the civilian, you are wrong too. Tell the person respectfully to kiss your ass.

Response by Cpl Cecil Carter Jr made Jul 18 at 2018 5:40 AM

2018-07-18T05:40:56-04:00

Hell No!!!

Response by LtCol Dennis Ivan made Jul 20 at 2018 9:46 AM

2018-07-20T09:46:26-04:00

GS is a pay grade not a rank. Civilians outside the Service Secretary hold no right to tell any soldier to do anything outside their specific billet description.
ANY civilian that tries you can tell to f off and tell them i said so.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Jul 21 at 2018 8:55 PM

2018-07-21T20:55:19-04:00

Under no circumstances should a civilian give such orders to a military person. Now if a civilian is in his day to day chain of command they may advise the soldier his/her duty. But definitely no corrective actions such as push ups! In the USAR it is quite common for the center to be managed by a civilian (GS12-13), and this includes oversite of all civilian and military personnel.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Jul 21 at 2018 9:04 PM

2018-07-21T21:04:34-04:00

A civilian (GS) can not force a service member to perform pushups etc.
But there are DOD employees that can be in charge of other civilian employees and military if hired to manage that section. In the USAR there are Civilian Employees managing the day to day activity at the Reserve Center. When on active duty I observed several management positions taken over by civilians. You can not refuse to do your job or not come in for duty or they the assigned supervisor can request corrective action.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Jul 21 at 2018 9:16 PM

2018-07-21T21:16:46-04:00

As a jr. Enlisted, I'll tell you what I told the civilian in Iraq.. "sir, I couldn't care less of you were the president. Please go suckadick and lickfatasshole... no one cares what you think you can order me to do ".

Is this shit not taught in basic anymore? I mean, chain of command and process of order here? For fucks sake

Response by Sgt Arthur Caesar made Jul 22 at 2018 5:19 PM

2018-07-22T17:19:44-04:00

No Marine will adhere to that crap!

Response by MAJ Mark N. made Jul 26 at 2018 2:56 PM

2018-07-26T14:56:26-04:00

Why is this question even asked?

Response by SPC Douglas Bolton made Jul 30 at 2018 1:18 AM

2018-07-30T01:18:02-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Not a chance!

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Jul 30 at 2018 2:38 AM

2018-07-30T02:38:44-04:00

I agree with First Sergeant Burgess; in fact, an ignorant civilian contractor did that to a soldier, which was bizarre because there was no chain of anything relationship between this clown and the soldier. Soldier stared at him like he was crazy and ignored him like a yapping chihuahua. Guy was new hire and not fitting in with the culture, which surprised me a bit since he was a Naval Reserve Officer and had done plenty of joint operations on his various tours. I was called in, asked the guy if he did that, and when he proudly said yes, I took a deep breath and said, "Do that again, and I'll have your job. You just harassed someone who happens to be the bloody customer. If the Project Manager hears this, he'll go crazy." The guy continued to act out, and within a week I was asked to fire him by everyone involved in hiring him, and in supervising him up through the division management across country. I didn't feel badly about this one at all.
Look, anyone who drops people for pushups just for the purpose of stroking their own ego is a creep -- I cutting down my swearing. They're abusive and they're dangerous to good order and discipline, and in this case to unit integrity. Getting them gone is doing the service and our extended family of those who serve a favor.

Response by SFC Jim Dorsey made Jul 30 at 2018 6:07 AM

2018-07-30T06:07:57-04:00

Never saw it happen.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jul 30 at 2018 10:22 AM

2018-07-30T10:22:42-04:00

Hell no

Response by COL Alan Napier made Jul 31 at 2018 7:04 PM

2018-07-31T19:04:37-04:00

Please

Response by SPC Cale Carlson made Aug 1 at 2018 1:33 PM

2018-08-01T13:33:19-04:00

OH hell No!!!! stay in your lane civilian if you want to play army then enlist and go active duty but until then shut the fuck up

Response by GySgt Richard James made Aug 8 at 2018 5:09 PM

2018-08-08T17:09:40-04:00

Never Happened.....Even when I was a MSG (Sgt) on Embassy Duty. Besides, “IF” it ever did happen there had to be a serious behavioral problem with that individual(s) and military service members repor. We Always had outstanding repor with the state department personnel.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2018 6:27 PM

2018-08-08T18:27:16-04:00

I wish he would.

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Aug 12 at 2018 10:05 PM

2018-08-12T22:05:55-04:00

I think it'should totally inappropriate and I believe it violates some regulations on harassment. Can a GS anything demand that a civilian do corrective action physical exercise (CAPES). Hell no! They would have an EO complaint filed in a heartbeat. Just because a person is in a uniform it doesn't change the employee/employer relationship. Civilians are not trained the same way a soldier is and has niether the right nor the privilege to impose CAPES. Even if a GS is in the chain of command somehow they might be authorized UCMJ punishment authority but physical training would be deference to military personnel. I know some civilians think it's fun to play with a "toy soldier" but a soldier can file a discrimination law suit just like a civilian.

Response by SGM Craig Clayton made Aug 13 at 2018 3:43 AM

2018-08-13T03:43:19-04:00

Wow the ignorance and lust for power that some individuals attempt to covet is absolutely mind boggling!!!

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made Aug 15 at 2018 12:32 AM

2018-08-15T00:32:39-04:00

No! DA Civilian, or GS (used to be even GS numbers were office workers, odd GS numbers were field operatives). Out of respect, we used to call sir to CIA operatives, whose uniforms seemed to be khaki shorts, Hawaiian shirts and a gold GS followed by their pay grade. They hated it! Any Officer or Enlisted doing push ups, should be transferred.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2018 9:19 PM

2018-08-16T21:19:06-04:00

That's a No Go! WTF?

Response by SFC Malcolm Haugen made Aug 18 at 2018 9:42 AM

2018-08-18T09:42:03-04:00

No! Many DoD civilians are formermilitary but not in the chain. Though we treat the DoD personel with the same respect as if they were still active but with yes or no Sir/Mam courtesy, they earned it. If that DoD staff person finds a Enlisted?Officer out of sorts, they should not take the action into their own hands but rather address the situation. If the situation can not be resolved then the DoD staff should use that solders chain of command to resolve the situation. At no time does a DoD Staffeer have any authority to drop a soldier.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2018 4:00 PM

2018-08-23T16:00:01-04:00

I've been retired two years and working here at the Ft. Carson MTC for over a year now and the notion of having a single shred of 'authority' towards a Soldier, NCO or Officer is absolutely nuts. I find that mentorship and influence works best here in a coaching role versus a heavy handed or cohersive role... there was a time and a place where 'correction' of that nature was appropriate... for me, a retiree... those days are long past.

If I saw a co-worker doing this, I'd jump in, ask the Soldier if he wanted to be doing this or not and if not, tell him he can get up and blow this shit off... then I'd have a candid discussion with my co-worker about who we (retirees/civilian vets) are now and why that was some bullshit.

PS. Never saw 'do push-ups' as a effective, relevant correction when I was either an NCO or later as an Officer. I liked the correction to be related to the infraction... ie. poorly sweep the line, good - sweep it again... how would doing push-ups demonstrate to the trooper in this vignette, an adequate work ethic?

Response by PO1 Charles Bellw made Aug 27 at 2018 2:22 PM

2018-08-27T14:22:08-04:00

When I retired from the Navy I took a work supervisor job at Range Maintenance my workforce was made up of civilians and military I had a SFC in charge of the soldiers I was told by DPTM Commander that if I had a problem with a soldier I was to let the the senior NCO handle it all I duties were to write the NCOERs and sign off on personnel for the promotion board as far as force a soldier to do push ups administer punishment we weren't allowed l how ever I could award 72 and 96 hour passes and put my 2 cents on other awards
One thing about it I got along better with them than the civilians other being called swabby, anchor clannker in which I tell them I spent more time in the chow line than their military career

Response by MSgt Walter Clack made Sep 2 at 2018 9:48 AM

2018-09-02T09:48:11-04:00

Hahahahahahahahahah ah that's cute thinking a civilian can tell me to do push-ups. You guys crack me up often with the absurdity of these articles. Need a good laugh, open up RallyPoint. Now before y'all jump on me, Yes, Yes there are serious articles posted on her too. But ones like this are just hilarious.
Semper Fi

Response by CDR Tom Davy made Sep 4 at 2018 4:00 PM

2018-09-04T16:00:11-04:00

NO! Of course not. A civilian can write up a service member and if their supervisor, impose certain penalties, but push-ups as a punishment is reserved, in my experience for JUNIOR personnel and usually in a training environment.

Response by SPC Mike Davis made Sep 5 at 2018 10:15 AM

2018-09-05T10:15:28-04:00

In response to the question. First, need to define "civilian?" civil service. Culturally it is a government "civil" work force. A "civil servant" is not profit specific. Highest form of civil service employee is how many papers can they stuff in a file cabinet drawer. The civil service has the same social structure as the military. WE (or something like that for labor) and GS for management. All positions are non-competitive. Promoted because....well.... because you are there. Civil service positions are generally filled by retired military personnel especially if near a military installation or Washington, D.C.. With such a similar mindset staffing either organization. Giving and taking orders would not seem very much out of line and acceptable in normal daily intercommunications between the two groups. The "civil service has two functions (or responsibilities.) One is to make a serviceman's life a little uncomfortable. The second (and most important from the civil service standpoint) is to make an American citizen (and the present President) so miserable neither one can wait to see the day the entire civil "service??????" is dismantled. And entirely reorganized within the "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" program.

Response by COL Bill Stoltzfus made Sep 7 at 2018 1:16 PM

2018-09-07T13:16:28-04:00

Unless the GS 10-15 is somehow wavered into a command equivalent position, he cannot give such an order. I am not sure what pay a service secretary (Sec Army or Sec Def) has, but if Secretary Mattis told me to do some push ups, I believe I would get started, just out of respect. I retired 5 years ago.

Response by GySgt Mike Swisher made Sep 8 at 2018 11:43 PM

2018-09-08T23:43:34-04:00

No, it's not. They are not in your chain of command, therefore may take no direct corrective action, they can report you to your chain of command who then make decisions on appropriate corrective action.

Response by MSgt Wes Tracy made Sep 12 at 2018 12:10 PM

2018-09-12T12:10:56-04:00

Apologies up front; I was Air Force, so not familiar with Army rules, but even if the person were a high ranking military officer, would that even be a lawful order outside of medical reasons overseen by a medical person? If anything, I would think non-judicial punishment (Article 15), but even that has a process to be followed rather than administered on the spot.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2018 2:24 AM

2018-09-15T02:24:40-04:00

Push ups and “give orders,” no. But they can have administrative authority to be a supervisor. That is an absolute fact. I am a GS employee supervisor and a military officer in the NG. That is how I know

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2018 9:25 PM

2018-09-23T21:25:16-04:00

Biggest GS a-holes I have ever seen infested the Corp's of Engineers at Quala House in Kabul.
Not a single day of military service among the GS 12 and up.
They were good for a laugh...which pissed them off to no end...and once they realized that you knew the deal, they made a point to avoiding actual service members.

Response by SPC Jason Herrera made Oct 4 at 2018 5:27 PM

2018-10-04T17:27:10-04:00

As prior service and current GS, I am certain that this would never even come close to an option in my mind in dealing with those in uniform. And if I was witness to another GS attempting this I would most likely intercede and recommend that the uniformed member's Chain of Command be utilized. I have been a GS with USACE and now with the Navy, and in both cases it is made clear how we interact with those in uniform and the lines of authority.

Response by PO2 Steven Youngblood made Oct 4 at 2018 5:58 PM

2018-10-04T17:58:59-04:00

NO.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2018 8:28 PM

2018-10-07T20:28:39-04:00

It's a military corrective action so unless you are in the military you shouldn't be doing it!!! Period.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-10-10T22:47:07-04:00

NO, if military discipline is in order it must come through the military. A civilian employee can talk with the chain of command and discuss a problem with a service member, but they have no direct authority.

Response by Lt Col John Culley made Oct 12 at 2018 9:07 PM

2018-10-12T21:07:40-04:00

Unless mandated by a military doctor's orders as part of a mandatory medical treatment plan, a civilian would have no authority to demand push-ups from a military member. Generally, DOD civilians of both sexes are the ones who should be doing push-ups and PT.

Response by Marlene Hessler made Oct 13 at 2018 4:48 PM

2018-10-13T16:48:07-04:00

Having been a GS in the 10-15 range for over a couple decades, it would seem that any such nonsense would have become known to people such as me. I KNOW OF NO SUCH RULE. In fact, most GS personnel are there to serve the military in one way or another. I provided stuff as a contracting officer. Anything from services to major weapon systems, R&D, LRIPs, and production. And, I was often called upon to train military to do some of the tasks I did. Never did I come across someone in need or correction and had that happened, I would have mentioned it to their superior. Never did I have the attitude of 'not my job', but in this case it applies and rightfully so.

Response by Iona Kranz made Oct 18 at 2018 8:21 AM

2018-10-18T08:21:21-04:00

As a former civil servant, I'd go to the officers I worked for and request they look into this. It's my understanding a GS15 is equal to an admiral's rank. But nevertheless, POTUS is only civilian who can. I'd ask him to see my CO, give him name and walk away, depending on circumstances.

Response by SPC Dave Loeffler made Oct 21 at 2018 9:08 AM

2018-10-21T09:08:35-04:00

I would tell him no way and walk off and then tell Top!

Response by SSG Randy Talbot made Oct 22 at 2018 5:30 PM

2018-10-22T17:30:22-04:00

I had an interesting career, 15 years as a medical nco before medical discharge and 15 years as a department of the army Civilian. As a civilian, I worked for GS-15's, colonels, and a two star. Additionally, we had SES's that were equal to two stars and were responsible for major army vehicle programs and the deputy to the commanding general. At no time in those 15 years did I ever see a situation where a civilian would discipline an army officer (most were LTC or COL) or reg very few enlisted folks we had who were mainly senior ncos. There were times where the civilians attitude rankled me, and the same with very senior officers. There were very few times where I saw any animosity to one group or another. Our chief of staff called DA one day to see if she could rate the deputy chief of staff. She was told no as he out ranks you. She was a toxic leader who would hold department head staff meetings at 5 pm on a Friday because she could.
Over 50% of the civilian work force was either reserves, retired or honorably discharged. There were a few bad apples but overall, it was the mission that counted. Employees were either employees who worked their hours and punched out regardless if the job was done; and there were associates that worked to finish the mission.
But I would challenge any civilian to order a enlisted man to do push-ups, even though the military is under civilian control of the executive branch. At the same time, I would find it embarrassing to have a senior officer order push-ups of an enlisted member. There are better ways of correction. I'll never forget having our Canadian liaison walk by a few ncos who didn't salute him (major) and get called out by the first sergeant who made them apologize to the major. That was more effective than push-ups anyway.

Response by SSG John Lasseigne made Oct 23 at 2018 1:17 PM

2018-10-23T13:17:39-04:00

Having been on both sides of that fence. Civilian rank equivalents are only a matter when it concerns billeting and never in command structure.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Oct 23 at 2018 4:36 PM

2018-10-23T16:36:05-04:00

Just as legal as the soldier kicking the feather merchants ass.
;)

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2018 7:20 AM

2018-10-30T07:20:40-04:00

Tell the civilian not to confuse pay grade with rank. I have met too many entitled civilians in my time in the. Most have never worn the uniform.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2018 4:00 PM

2018-11-03T16:00:39-04:00

Let me guess sir you’re at a unit where the GS civilians have an “us vs. them” thing going on.

Response by COL Paul Hernandez made Nov 3 at 2018 4:32 PM

2018-11-03T16:32:22-04:00

Really? Common courtesy rules. Yes Sir/Ma’am is sufficient. Anything beyond that should not be tolerated. Hazing will get them disciplined.

Response by 1LT Steve Austin made Nov 7 at 2018 10:41 AM

2018-11-07T10:41:30-05:00

As a former Army officer and now a retired SES civilian, not DOD, I would put my foot where it wouldn't be seen.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2018 10:49 PM

2018-11-08T22:49:56-05:00

Is the civilian dual status? Not that I think you should ever, EVER try to make a SR. NCO or Jr. Officer do physical corrective training, but I have seen Soldiers take exception to being corrected by a civilian for being out of regs, I.E. hair or nails, and get nasty in a way I would never expect a Soldier to act. Would it then be a responsibility?

Response by SGM Major Stroupe made Nov 19 at 2018 7:16 AM

2018-11-19T07:16:15-05:00

Let's all understand that even when a GS civilian is placed in an operational position of authority over soldiers, soldiers also have a military chain of command. While there may arise situations that frustrate some civilians you do not possess the authority to have a soldier do push-ups, salute or any other military discipline. There are two messages here; First, DOD civilians, if you are having discipline issues with a soldier contact their military chain of command, and Second, soldiers, don't embarrass yourself and your service by irritating some civilian to the point of telling you to do something like push-ups, they can make stupid mistakes without your assistance.

Response by Capt Jose R made Nov 20 at 2018 4:30 PM

2018-11-20T16:30:57-05:00

I would tell that GS civilian if he wasn't a veteran to talk to a recruiter, join the service, and become a MTI/Drill Sergeant if he wants to tell soldiers to drop for push ups. If the GS civilian is a veteran/retiree, tell them thanks for your service but go back to doing your civilian job. I have ran across a few GS-13/GS-14 types at a previous job that were retired officers in the O-5/O-6 pay grade who still thought they carried their old rank. They proudly displayed their old coins and medals thinking that that somehow gave them extra authority over other GS civilians, contractors, and military members. To me, they were just another GS employee who happened to be a veteran.

Response by SSG Nathan Blair made Nov 20 at 2018 10:54 PM

2018-11-20T22:54:04-05:00

Hell to the no!!! If they want some corrective action of their own. You want to be us, join us, put in the time. Then you make decisions.

Response by MSG Gary Himert made Nov 22 at 2018 12:12 PM

2018-11-22T12:12:08-05:00

Alex I’ll take Sh*t that never happened for $500

Response by SGT Ronald Green made Nov 22 at 2018 6:21 PM

2018-11-22T18:21:10-05:00

that would be a hell yes !!!!!!!!!

Response by Capt John Mulkerin made Nov 27 at 2018 5:55 PM

2018-11-27T17:55:53-05:00

Totally agree with 1SG Burgess

Response by LTC Jack Regan made Dec 2 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-12-02T21:43:02-05:00

Utterly ridiculous if it is legal but I know what my response would be if such a knucklehead expected that of me or one of my soldiers. He wouldn't try it again.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Dec 6 at 2018 6:46 PM

2018-12-06T18:46:49-05:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner…Only one response is F—K you.

Response by SP5 Rich Levesque made Dec 8 at 2018 9:53 AM

2018-12-08T09:53:02-05:00

Not a chance. Civilians are due respect as is anyone else. Ordering someone to do push-ups or any other thing outside of the line of duty should rate that civilian a severe reprimand if not an ass-kicking.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Dec 9 at 2018 7:26 PM

2018-12-09T19:26:12-05:00

No. PT is soldiers business. As a GS 12 I had many soldiers working for me including warrants, LTs and MSGs. A GS 12 is a CPT or MAJ equivalent. Depending of the ;position. I was the Director of Logistics at Schinnen the Netherlands for 2 years, The COL had to downgrade the position from a GS 13 to a 12 for me to get the job, I did not have a year in grade. Once downgraded it never gets upgraded.

Response by LTC Andrae Evans made Dec 9 at 2018 11:48 PM

2018-12-09T23:48:07-05:00

Not legal. Civilians are never in the chain of command, even secretaries, directors or other SES. Civilians always have a liaison in between them and military personnel. Pushups or other physical punishment request are never a response to a civilian request. If it is F### them.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2018 2:49 PM

2018-12-13T14:49:28-05:00

Short answer? No. Longer answer? No.

Response by PFC Dwayne Dittoe made Dec 16 at 2018 6:23 AM

2018-12-16T06:23:15-05:00

i would have laughed at him as i walked away...if he continued i would have met his escalation, or laughed harder and continue walking away...but i wasn't exactly a model soldier, damn good at my job but not a role model type

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2018 9:27 AM

2018-12-31T09:27:53-05:00

No. The bottom line up front is that GS civilians have no command authority over uniformed service members although they may have designated operational authority. Just like everything else in the military, there are instruction books and memorandum that tell how all of this works. AR 600-20 is a good place to start reading all about it. There is protocol for how different civilian pay grades (not ranks!) are treated compared to uniformed ranks outlined in regulation, but that is only for courtesy purposes. A GS civilian who is trying to do things like this is a ridiculous fool who doesn't know his/her role.

Response by SGT William Benson made Jan 7 at 2019 10:47 AM

2019-01-07T10:47:46-05:00

Short answer:No.

Response by CAPT Mark Lyles made Jan 7 at 2019 1:48 PM

2019-01-07T13:48:34-05:00

ABSOLUTELY Illegal. The civilian can and should lose his job.

Response by SFC Timothy Sturgill made Jan 12 at 2019 2:04 PM

2019-01-12T14:04:44-05:00

No. Period.

Response by MSgt Jerry Waters made Jan 13 at 2019 9:36 PM

2019-01-13T21:36:38-05:00

Hell NO!!!!!!

Response by SSG Jess Peters made Jan 21 at 2019 12:23 AM

2019-01-21T00:23:46-05:00

Absolutely not.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Jan 21 at 2019 7:16 PM

2019-01-21T19:16:42-05:00

Do I even want to entertain this question? I don't care what position the civilian holds, the answer here is no.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 6:20 PM

2019-01-24T18:20:20-05:00

No.

Response by MSgt Craig Gauger made Jan 24 at 2019 6:48 PM

2019-01-24T18:48:05-05:00

I agree with the sentiments above. Who the Hell does this civilian think he is? When I was in MWR for several years of my career, I worked for DOD Civilians, but they never tried something like that.

Response by Maj Dale Smith made Jan 24 at 2019 7:09 PM

2019-01-24T19:09:16-05:00

He is not in your military chain of command. NO, and I would inform him of such, however, if he has any "political" power, I would do so with respect. Govt civilians have "equivolent" military rank, and you cited a Captain to Colonel in the GS ranks. If I were you, you politely refuse his demand, and inform him that he can go through the chain of command. Inform your superior of the incident so that he does not get blindsided. I only have your side of the story here, and it might be a little different if you are directly working for the GS-10/15. He still doesn't have the authority to give you corpral punishment, but he can recommend it to your military superior.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Jan 25 at 2019 1:03 AM

2019-01-25T01:03:44-05:00

This is a sore point for me and remains one. I had a thing about people outside the chain of command screwing with my soldiers. That was my job, and I made a point of not abusing that privilege. It was not a big deal; but, as a Contractor's HR Manager, we brought on a Business Manager who was a Navy Reserve LCDR. He wore a belt buckle with his Surface Warfare Badge and wore a ball cap with his rank on it. He was also an imbecile; and was exceptionally disruptive within the first couple of weeks with the organization. Boss ignored it, until I had a group of our employees come in and complain that this guy had tried to drop a SFC who had come in meet with our transportation department for pushups. Boss was also a retired soldier, an Aviator. I talked to the employee and he said that he'd drop me for pushups...since I was a retired First Sergeant, that was just stupid. Left, walked into the Boss' office, shut the door and said "It's time. We got great people lining up to quit over this idiot and now he's started abusing soldiers." Told him the story including his response to my recommendation to knock it off, and he turned purple. That was Thursday, and the creep was gone the next day.

Response by SSG Lubec Beshansky made Jan 25 at 2019 4:21 AM

2019-01-25T04:21:52-05:00

No a DAC can not make a Soldier do push ups or administrative punishment. The Military COC is for that.

But a DAC can be in charge of them and give them lawful orders. This has to be by assignment. The Soldiers would have to be tasked/designated to the DAC directly and not a Soldier from another unit.

I work as a Contractor, gunsmith/armor. I deal with soldiers, but have no authority over them. However due to the contract dealing with the Military, we have a DAC. His main job is having authority and control of the Soldiers. He has general authority over Soldiers at our site. He can refer disapline issues/punishment to the site Military Commander or the Soldiers Command.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 11:17 AM

2019-01-25T11:17:30-05:00

No way. They are not in any chain of command or influence. It is the chain of command to determine any corrective action.

Response by SGT(P) Oliver Freeman III made Jan 25 at 2019 8:44 PM

2019-01-25T20:44:01-05:00

As Prior Service (Army) and Currently in that GS range Payband (Not with the Army), I would definitely say NEGATIVE and if I saw someone doing that, I would fix that ASAP. As a supervisor of 13 I have several Senior NCO's who work for me and also several Jr NCO's who work for me as well and I would NEVER do or even think about doing that. The only exception to this would be A.R.T.S because technically they are still an Officer/Senior NCO/Jr NCO who also wear the uniform and GS as well. Even with that, it would be murky water because nowadays it's too easy to say hazing. They would have to be in their chain of command for that to happen on my watch.

Response by MSG Edward Camp made Jan 26 at 2019 1:19 PM

2019-01-26T13:19:05-05:00

HELL NO, any leader that would allow that to happen to one of his soldiers should not be in a leadership postion.

Response by MSG Edward Camp made Jan 26 at 2019 1:29 PM

2019-01-26T13:29:57-05:00

While station at the Marine Barracks the Navy OCS candidates and the naval academy prep personnel would expect a salute. Not happening and never gonna happen. The kicker was at that time we had Iranian officers in various schools who also expected a salute. Again not gonna happen. Our leadership backed us up especially the on the Iranians who were the most arrogant and troublesome. They never obeyed the rules, they were worthless pieces of human excrement.

Response by CWO2 Darryl Craft made Jan 26 at 2019 2:39 PM

2019-01-26T14:39:37-05:00

No way does a civilian have the right or power to order military personnel around! Most have no idea what leadership is!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2019 1:13 AM

2019-01-27T01:13:10-05:00

No, and any that would try should be reported to the military Chain of Command.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jan 27 at 2019 6:20 AM

2019-01-27T06:20:03-05:00

Guys, lemme give you all a few reality checks on that whole thing from my worm's eye perspective, OK? When I went in, the very last thing I envisioned, or that was ever brought up with me, either in Army ROTC, or USAF OTS thereafter, was the wonderful wide world of civil servants, honest. Now, I've been around just about every single bureaucratic block this planet has to offer at this point, truly, and that obcoisly includes a really rapid introduction to hat whole beautiful vista. When I was in, I worked under pretty much everything tat walked, crawled, spoke, or flew, you na!e it, I worked under it, I assure you. Active duty, civil service, made zero difference where I was, trust me...whenever one civil servant I was under wanted to give me a good shake, all he had to do was just send a little short written missive to my O-6, who'd proceed to give !e a major wake-up call. That same civil servant had me staying in the office on multiple occasions till 3 AM only to berate me as an I'll trained idiot the next morning, despite doing everything in my training to please the man...he could also be extremely stiff, with his whole executive correspondence thing, loathing needing to sign stuff on the fly at a moment's notice. Now, I eventually was placed under someone lower, fortuitously, as hose over me realized I needed someone lower to train me properly, though God knows I'd made every mistake a human being could be biologically capable and/or incapable of by that point. So, that being said, guys, in the world I functioned in, and was required to, I traveled with ciivil servants on trips, incl the impatient one, who, memorably, screamed at me once at the very top of his lungs, for not getting something done when he'd wanted it, despite having refused me the chance to get specific training to do that sort of task, telling me to learn OJT from other civil servants and/or active duty in my unit. Civil servants in svcs are part of day to day existence, one of those little gems some genius ROTC or OCS/OIS curriculum designer just somehow manage to leave out of doing any presentations on. Believe me, I can entirely fatom the apparent reaction to being told to do pushups by a civil servant, however, trust me, guys, where I was, the civil servants and their authority was really real, they ruled the roost, and the active duty types were the transients, civil servants were the TRUE permanent party...one time, I heard it rater euphemistically described that they gave "continuity" to an organization, whatever hat meant. So, as I'd said, from my worm's eye view, guys, where I was, when a civil servant said DO IT, you DID IT, and, if you DIDN'T, you got yourself REAL rapidly in very seriously deep DOO-DOO, I kid thee all of you not. Now, I entirely also grant the rest of you might have a somewhat different perspective, however, my Dad was in, a brother was in, one of my Mom's first cousins was in, an uncle was in, another uncle was senior cvol service, one of my Dad's cousins was senior civil service, that same brother was also civil service later on (the one who'd been in also), so, trust me, guys, civil servants are like Mt. Everest, they're just THERE, and if they DO IT, believe me, I and all the other active duty where I was DID IT, I entirely realize a goodly many of you might disagree, and no, not one of them ever said to do pushups, literally, where I was, however, trust me, they had their own ways of getting their points across wit pH quite equal vigor, without, needing to add such metaphorical physical inducements, I assure you, trust me when I tell you all, guys, in he active duty universe, at least where I was, civil servants quite literally lifted up locomotives and walked UNDER them, I kid thee all not, swear to God, guys, God's truth, honest....

Response by LTC John Griscom made Jan 27 at 2019 7:58 AM

2019-01-27T07:58:09-05:00

Having been a DoA Civilian (GS-13), the definite answer is not only no, but hell no. If it ain't job related (which the example isn't), civilians stay out.

Response by PO1 Don Rowan made Jan 27 at 2019 9:26 AM

2019-01-27T09:26:08-05:00

Is he in the chain of command???? Nope, so that's his answer. KMA.

Response by SSgt Keith Whitt made Jan 27 at 2019 9:32 AM

2019-01-27T09:32:26-05:00

I did 20 years in the Marine Corps and now work as a DOD civilian in the area of Combat Fitness. That would never be acceptable to conduct corrective punishment. I have them do pushups as part of our workouts only, if there is a issue with someone i let there leadership know. With that they will act the way you present and carry yourself. I personally have not had any issues where this would be needed.

Response by Sgt Mark McCann made Jan 27 at 2019 10:31 AM

2019-01-27T10:31:26-05:00

"is it legal," now that is a weird question. I don't think anybody civilian or military would have the balls to make a "Sr. NCO or Jr. Officer" do pushups outside of a rare training environment where PT is part of the training. GS civilians do in fact supervise active duty in regular work situations and vice versa. But, one of the weirdest things I ever witnessed was at the Norfolk Navy Base, a retired Command Master Chief who was then an MWR employee running a discipline muster shouting commands at bad boy Sailors.

Response by SFC Nelson Lovejoy made Jan 27 at 2019 3:27 PM

2019-01-27T15:27:13-05:00

a GS level....whether is is GS-0-GS-99....they have no corrective measure of anything over a soldier. if they think they have a problem with a soldier they can go to the soldier's supervisor and discuss the issue with them.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jan 27 at 2019 7:56 PM

2019-01-27T19:56:47-05:00

NO way is that acceptable; He is still a civilian !

Response by SSG Ryan Molton made Jan 27 at 2019 7:58 PM

2019-01-27T19:58:05-05:00

I would laugh in his/her face !

Response by Cpl Thomas Wiklanski made Jan 27 at 2019 8:29 PM

2019-01-27T20:29:56-05:00

Absolutely NOT!

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made Jan 27 at 2019 8:59 PM

2019-01-27T20:59:18-05:00

My son is ex CID,and now carries a GS rating. He would never demean a fellow veteran. As he said,push-ups ended with AIT

Response by CPT William Jones made Jan 28 at 2019 12:44 AM

2019-01-28T00:44:01-05:00

Not only NO, but HELL NO! See Tops response below, and frankly, there should be line behind him all the way up to the Post Commander for shining boots on the backside of any civilian who even attempts to lock up a soldier.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 7:39 AM

2019-01-28T07:39:02-05:00

Absolutely NOT!!!
10 USC 10216
Federal Civilian Employee
NGB PD Addendum 14-1008
“To preform military duties is a violation of the purpose of hire”
ACT Los Taínos Chapter 119

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 8:42 AM

2019-01-28T08:42:47-05:00

First off, legality or regulations aside, if a GS Civilian employee is trying to have a service member do push-ups he/she probably either a) got out of the military with little to no time under their belt and doesn't have the corresponding maturity to understand that they are out of their lane. Or b) was never in the military and wants to feel like they are a drill sergeant.
Now, onto another item some of you have brought up "they aren't in my Chain of Command" be careful there. They could be. As an E-8 I was rated by a GG-13 civilian. It depends on your command, there are a lot of places where GS/GG Civilian employees ARE in supervisory positions in charge of military service members so don't get it twisted and think that because someone is a Civilian employee that you don't need to listen to them, follow their instructions, or respect them just like NCOs or Officers.
If a Civilian employee "orders" you to do push-ups, take it to your NCO or Officer and let them handle it, don't get in a pissing match.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Jan 28 at 2019 9:59 PM

2019-01-28T21:59:15-05:00

Hell no! If you are working w/ a civilian GS worker trying to impose authority over military personnel you need to put a foot up his ass. After that do everything you can to get rid of him.

Response by 1LT Edward Woods made Jan 29 at 2019 12:36 AM

2019-01-29T00:36:55-05:00

Current job puts me in a position where service members are "responsible to me" on a regular basis. I've had people from E-4 to O-3 assigned.
At the start of every assignment they're briefed on what their responsibilities are and what my expectations are. Most of them complete their assignments professionally and with no issues. I'd like to say I can't imagine anyone in my position thinking they have the kind of authority to demand PT but I've seen that mindset with a retired CSM who couldn't wrap his head around the concept.
When I have issues with SM's I just send them out of the AO. If the issue was significant, I'll contact their 1st line. If things were really bad, the commander I work for contacts the commander they work for and that's handled through their CoC.

Response by SCPO Brian Moats made Jan 29 at 2019 2:32 AM

2019-01-29T02:32:29-05:00

Legal ? I doubt it even if they work for them but I would assume the military chain of command would handle the discipl

Response by SCPO William Garnett made Jan 29 at 2019 9:55 AM

2019-01-29T09:55:40-05:00

ABSOLUTELY NOT! DISCIPLINE & RESPECT NEED TO COME FROM WITHIN THE ARMY AND IT'S CHAIN OF COMMAND! THAT'S THE PROBLEM IN TODAY'S MILITARY...TOO MUCH OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE!

Response by 1SG Frank Plewinski made Jan 29 at 2019 10:54 AM

2019-01-29T10:54:17-05:00

I am a retired 1SG US Army Infantry. I am currently a GS Civilian and wouldn't find myself in this situation. However, no active duty NCO or Officer is putting a foot up my ass without getting some back. But I have more common sense than most. Most GS work are retired military and no better.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2019 12:52 PM

2019-01-29T12:52:24-05:00

The word civilian provides you your answer

Response by CW3 Drew B made Jan 29 at 2019 3:30 PM

2019-01-29T15:30:48-05:00

That is a stupid idea. If the civilian is a supervisor role, then it is important for them to develop the soldier. Use the stupid counseling forms. Build up paperwork. Yes, it takes time. However, if the soldier is a problem, then multiple counseling statements can be forwarded to the officer with UCMJ authority.

From the Soldier's perspective (junior officer/senior NCO), this is demeaning and had no bearing on the job. I'd request a written counseling followed by an open door meeting with the first commanding officer with UCMJ authority in the chain of command.

Civilians don't administer corrective actions through pushups with a few very rare and very specific situations... Corrective training is also typically reserved for new soldiers.

Overall, any civilian that refuses to use developmental counseling to correct subordinate junior officers and be senior NCOs is simply lazy and is failing their subordinates.

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Jan 29 at 2019 7:06 PM

2019-01-29T19:06:19-05:00

As a civilian contractor. I jokingly say drop and parade rest. But it’s only messing around. So no way should it happen. Again jokingly. I’m sure someone will blow me up for it. Oh well. Parade Rest

Response by SSG Ray Elliott made Jan 29 at 2019 10:49 PM

2019-01-29T22:49:43-05:00

I don't know about legalities, but it's highly inappropriate. If a civilian has an issue with a soldier he should address it with the soldiers chain of command. He has no authority to ask a soldier to do push-ups or any other disciplinary actions.

Response by SSgt Goldie Getter made Jan 30 at 2019 10:38 AM

2019-01-30T10:38:41-05:00

Absolutely never ok. I am not only prior service ans grew up in an army family, but am now a civilian service wife of a (higher GS ranking ants retiree) and not once, not ever would either of us allow a civilian to have as such to an active duty member of any rank.

Response by SSG Branyn Burkhart made Jan 30 at 2019 11:22 AM

2019-01-30T11:22:34-05:00

What?!? Heeeeck no. I would be respectful, but there’s no way I would be doing push-ups for them. No way.

Response by PO1 Voodoo Degenerate made Jan 30 at 2019 2:45 PM

2019-01-30T14:45:36-05:00

I am a retired civilian working in the ANG and I participate in pushup just to be a team player. I think civilians specially prior service may ask but not expect it as long as they get down with them. Otherwise, they can kick rocks.

Response by SFC Jerry Goings made Jan 30 at 2019 4:05 PM

2019-01-30T16:05:35-05:00

Did you see that, the junior officer is to stupid to know any better a true NCO WOULD HAVE IN THEASE WORDS. M .F .DON'T YOU KNOW I'LL KILL YOU

Response by SPC Mike Miller made Jan 30 at 2019 6:09 PM

2019-01-30T18:09:33-05:00

In my workplace all GS 11-15 are treated like officers. My pay grade WS 13 to 15 are like the warrant officers. No one makes anyone do push-ups. But we do parade rest or stand up when someone walks into the room. All of the lower pay grades are treated like lower enlisted. When someone in the higher pay grades tells you to do something. You do it. I had a lower Gs employee throw his paper towel on the floor in the bathroom. I told him to picked it up. He saw my rank and quickly picked it it. Then he was pulled into the office by a GS 14 and talked too. Anyone who is a veteran is treated a lot nicer also and usually hang out with each other.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2019 2:21 PM

2019-01-31T14:21:07-05:00

I worked in a few positions in my career so far that had me working around DA/GS/SAS civilians. We had one or two who liked to pull this kind of shenanigans. We had a Brigadier General tell one to shut up and be quiet a few times when he would get stupid like that. They are nowhere in the chain of command and therefore can not tell a soldier to do squat.

Response by SGT Tom McWilliams made Feb 1 at 2019 12:59 PM

2019-02-01T12:59:14-05:00

Oh hell no! I worked with several GS10-15 individuals who were mostly retired military. Not a single one of them ever thought they could give me an order of any kind. Especially one like that. If they had I would have told them where to go! Framed with the appropriate Sir or Ma'am.

Response by TSgt Tommy Amparano made Feb 1 at 2019 10:09 PM

2019-02-01T22:09:01-05:00

I would say no based on:
"I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Response by Lt Col John Culley made Feb 2 at 2019 11:42 PM

2019-02-02T23:42:41-05:00

Ever since the issuance of the 34 page counterinsurgency bible ordered by President Kennedy in his 1962 National Security Action Memo 182 civilians in the CIA and State Department have been trying to acquire the authority to order military personnel to do things they either don't want to do themselves or feel they are owed due to their positions. Robert Komer was the most famous State Department ambassador inside South Vietnam who thought he could order military personnel to do things during the Vietnam War. The Top secret annex C of the counterinsurgency bible ordered military personnel to support the CIA in Laos which State Department Laos Ambassador William Sullivan thought gave him the authority to control military units during the secret war in Laos. Military ought to be able to ask civilians to display evidence of their authority to issue any orders to military personnel.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made Feb 3 at 2019 7:44 PM

2019-02-03T19:44:40-05:00

I wouldn't be able to do any pushups, because I'd be laughing so hard in their face. When I finally caught my breath, I'd tell that GS whatever to kiss the darkest part of my lily white ass.

Response by SP5 Scott Splese made Feb 4 at 2019 10:41 AM

2019-02-04T10:41:04-05:00

Technically speaking, enlisted reports to officers and officers to the Commander In Chief. The way our constitution is set up is that ideally the POTUS is one step lower than the lowest civilian as that is who he/ she represents and is elected by. Keeping this frame of mind is healthy as it will ensure that if our government ever gets out of control our Military knows who they work for (and the Chinese Tank Man will never get run over).

Response by SGT Daniel Durkovich made Feb 15 at 2019 4:38 PM

2019-02-15T16:38:59-05:00

Sir or ma'am is a correct response to a civilian. Civilians cannot and are not permitted to take corrective actions against soldiers. If a civilian has an issue then they take it up with the chain of command.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2019 9:26 AM

2019-02-20T09:26:47-05:00

I'm not so sure it is legal for anybody to demand a Soldier do push ups except in certain situations as in basic training with qualified drill instructors. This is another good research project.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2019 9:28 AM

2019-02-20T09:28:15-05:00

If a GS-15 tells me to do push ups, I'm probably going to tell that GS 15 where to go, unless I really like them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2019 4:40 PM

2019-02-20T16:40:00-05:00

That would be a problem if there is a problem with a soldier he should contact the ranking individual in charge of that soldier to address corrective action , that’s not a civilians place retired from active duty or not.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2019 11:50 PM

2019-02-20T23:50:28-05:00

If you look in the regs, GS positions technically equate to ranks in the military.

Response by SSG Eric Cooper made Mar 1 at 2019 1:49 AM

2019-03-01T01:49:20-05:00

I would laugh, and nope. I'm with you as a Medically Retired SSG, the thought of any Vet thinking they had the authority to drop a Soldier let alone a civilian who has never served makes me cringe.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Mar 3 at 2019 12:25 AM

2019-03-03T00:25:34-05:00

There is not and have not been a provision for civilians to perform anything ! There are civilian's that do oversee military personnel work assignments and job performance.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Mar 3 at 2019 3:07 AM

2019-03-03T03:07:45-05:00

Stupid question, remove it.

Response by SPC Earl Semler made Mar 4 at 2019 4:11 PM

2019-03-04T16:11:20-05:00

No, they are there to give direction to the soldier not to discipline them. If they are instructors they need to report the problem to the soldiers SGT, who then needs to correct that soldier. It is proper to remove the soldier from the job/class until the SGT can be informed of the issue.

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Mar 4 at 2019 6:10 PM

2019-03-04T18:10:58-05:00

At FT.DRUM there was a few that would try that stuff. with some of the day one's. I would tell them to go F/themselfs they had no right to try that. Some would say they want to see my First Sergeant or the CO. I would take them to ether one. Most of the time they would tell to get the F out of their building. I have to say I love Grunts.

Response by PVT Alejandro Rivera made Mar 12 at 2019 5:19 PM

2019-03-12T17:19:39-04:00

I would tell that civilian to blow out his you know what.

Response by PO2 David Ball made Mar 21 at 2019 7:38 PM

2019-03-21T19:38:42-04:00

Um, oh hell no!!! And if this Civilian cannot figure it out the Senior Military Personnel WILL!!! Of which oh, by the way, he or she should be addressing the "complaint" too...
The first rule of combat as a civilian is Never, Ever!!! piss off the guys or gals who are "required" to stop a bullet for you or we might "miss"...
The passive /aggressive form of "friendly fire"... Is STILL FRIENDLY FIRE!!!! Even if "we" did not fire the rounds down range!!! After all, it is ONLY HITS THAT COUNT!!!

Response by SPC Ray Direitoi made Mar 30 at 2019 2:28 AM

2019-03-30T02:28:08-04:00

As a Dod civilian that works hand in hand with both lower enlisted and NCO’s daily. No, corrective action is the NCO’s providence. If I see something unsafe, or wrong I will call it out, but it is not my AOR to provide punishment. I advise the NCO’s and will give them guidance and act as a sounding board, but it is their responsibility to administer and supply correction. That being said it was my idea to have the E-2 who used a traffic cone to reserve a parking spot at the workcenter so he did not have to walk far. Carry said traffic cone for a week as his battle buddy, as a reminder that he can walk just like everyone else.

Response by PO2 Melanye Francisco made Apr 6 at 2019 11:35 PM

2019-04-06T23:35:26-04:00

Hell no!!! And I’d write up anyone that tried!! Even if you’re a DoA Veteran, you’re a civilian now and no longer have that privilege.

Get over yourself and have them disciplined, if truly deserved and not just a case of you getting your ass on your soldiers about respect you believe you’re entitled to, through the proper channels.

Response by SPC Cesar Freytes made Apr 12 at 2019 2:41 PM

2019-04-12T14:41:00-04:00

I don't know what rank you hold or how long you have been in the military but military custom's and courtesy's always apply, learn them civilians are cats and military are dogs we don't mate we work together make that understood.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Brady made Apr 12 at 2019 3:13 PM

2019-04-12T15:13:06-04:00

Ah no. Then again during the 11 years I was in I had to pleasure to work for the same people multiple times. Now if someone, former military that I really respected became a DOD/DA Civilian and told me to drop I probably would. But that would only be because of our past work relationship. Otherwise I would probably challenge them to do the push ups.

Response by Capt George Kent Brashear made Apr 13 at 2019 1:08 AM

2019-04-13T01:08:00-04:00

NO. I would say that only one civilian might be well within his right to give that order, but he would never do so, and that is the Commander In Chief

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made Apr 13 at 2019 5:39 AM

2019-04-13T05:39:14-04:00

I’m wondering what they teach officers these days. Short of the secretary of the army or the Sec Def or the Pres. there are zero civilians in the chain of command. If a civilian has a grievance they go through the chain of command, and then the punishment is handed down thusly if it is warranted. Otherwise it’s tough titties mr civi I work for a living.

Response by SGT Philip Klein made Apr 17 at 2019 12:46 PM

2019-04-17T12:46:39-04:00

No, they’re civilians.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 10:02 AM

2019-04-18T10:02:06-04:00

No it's not...

Response by CPT Bob De Groff made Apr 19 at 2019 7:53 PM

2019-04-19T19:53:50-04:00

What prompted this question? Did some jackass try it?

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made Apr 21 at 2019 11:17 PM

2019-04-21T23:17:49-04:00

No! Even if that GS person is in your team or chain, they are civilians. An MLI should be the go between. As for ordering push ups, a throat punch may be in order. My wife’s civilian rank is that of a Major.... she calls everyone sir or ma’am..... E-1 or 0-6.

Response by PO1 Richard Norton made Apr 23 at 2019 7:15 AM

2019-04-23T07:15:07-04:00

I don't care what his rank prior to becoming a DOD civilian, they don't have that authority. Your senior Enlisted or CO should be putting them in their place.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2019 10:04 AM

2019-04-23T10:04:04-04:00

A goddamn NCO can barely get a soldier to do pushups these days. Outside of like someone else said for medical evaluation I would go with fuck no. That civilian is smoking crack if they think they can.

Response by Andrew Paladino made Apr 25 at 2019 10:08 PM

2019-04-25T22:08:27-04:00

If an order by your CO was to follow the orders of a civilian, would you have to follow their orders then?

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Apr 25 at 2019 10:56 PM

2019-04-25T22:56:06-04:00

Not HAPPENING, I wouldn't do it they have no standing

Response by SGT Mike Aydt made May 1 at 2019 9:56 PM

2019-05-01T21:56:48-04:00

Ha ha

Response by LTC Ray Morris made May 6 at 2019 2:54 PM

2019-05-06T14:54:31-04:00

Absolutely not legal.

Response by LTC Ray Morris made May 6 at 2019 2:56 PM

2019-05-06T14:56:09-04:00

Absolutely not legal. Just an ego trip. Laugh in his face next time.

Response by CW4 Harris Smith made May 7 at 2019 4:03 PM

2019-05-07T16:03:59-04:00

Not your lane dumbass. Stay in your lane. Pretty sure I never had a GS 10, GS 15 or GS jack crap in my chain of command.

Response by CW4 Steven Bowyer made May 8 at 2019 4:31 PM

2019-05-08T16:31:41-04:00

No way, no how, not ever.

Response by CPL Chris Mensinger made May 10 at 2019 2:36 PM

2019-05-10T14:36:15-04:00

Funny thing about civilian employees, most were of a higher rank when they were in the military, however a lot (not all) of those were chaptered or flagged from reenlistment due to some type of misconduct. I would rather seek advice from the barracks lawyers over the "power tripping civilians".

Response by LtCol Paul Bowen made May 10 at 2019 8:31 PM

2019-05-10T20:31:59-04:00

If they are a Ph.D. then Dr. is as far as salutations go.

General Schedule (G.S.) pay grades are “Pay Grades”, not military ranks.

So direct a work space harassment complaint in the direction of the miscreant.

Response by SFC Michael Hanke made May 10 at 2019 10:17 PM

2019-05-10T22:17:06-04:00

If your that damn ignorant to comply, then I guess you'll be doing push-ups. However, I suggest pulling your head out of your assistance first. SFC (R), 11B40

Response by LTC John Bush made May 11 at 2019 7:52 AM

2019-05-11T07:52:44-04:00

HELL NO period

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2019 12:24 PM

2019-05-11T12:24:38-04:00

Unless that GS is in charge of that section as an OIC then fuck no

Response by LTC John Badtone made May 12 at 2019 2:40 PM

2019-05-12T14:40:28-04:00

I was both a commissioned officer and GS 14 after retirement. Short answer is not NO but HELL NO!

Response by SMSgt Matthew Hoyer made May 12 at 2019 6:28 PM

2019-05-12T18:28:47-04:00

That's the quickest train to Fuck You town that exists.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2019 7:25 PM

2019-05-12T19:25:50-04:00

OHN! LOL

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2019 7:34 PM

2019-05-12T19:34:40-04:00

It's important to remember that many civil servants have equivalent rank. It's also important to remember that equivalent rank should NEVER be confused for rank.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 12 at 2019 8:54 PM

2019-05-12T20:54:34-04:00

Never. I was s GS 12. I had numerous soldiers work for me in the 18 years I spent as A DOD GS. Pt is controlled by soldiers.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made May 12 at 2019 11:52 PM

2019-05-12T23:52:13-04:00

If I worked under a GS 10-15 civilian, who told me to do push ups for some infraction, I not only tell where can get self sex but help him/her get there real damned quick. Any GS something has no right to punishe, demand respect or act like he/she is the better of any one.

Response by MAJ John Douglas made May 13 at 2019 8:55 AM

2019-05-13T08:55:41-04:00

Absolutely not. Never.

Response by MAJ John Douglas made May 13 at 2019 8:56 AM

2019-05-13T08:56:11-04:00

Absolutely not. Never. I can't imagine it even happening.

Response by Sgt Ryerson Gorman made May 13 at 2019 10:44 AM

2019-05-13T10:44:33-04:00

No! I used to special orders to work with Civilian leaders. He or she can reprimand you by writing to your chain of commands, but not making you to do push up.

Response by SSG Lee Edwards made May 13 at 2019 2:34 PM

2019-05-13T14:34:37-04:00

No!

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made May 13 at 2019 5:00 PM

2019-05-13T17:00:32-04:00

One word "WHAT"!!!

Response by SPC John Alexander made May 13 at 2019 6:24 PM

2019-05-13T18:24:33-04:00

I think I would tell the civilian to “Bite Me”.

Response by SSG Phil Miller made May 13 at 2019 7:12 PM

2019-05-13T19:12:15-04:00

It is "legal" for a civilian to demand and expect anything. That does not mean anyone has to listen to him or her. I think it would be humiliating to be that civilian in any unit I have been in.

Response by SFC James Pritchert made May 13 at 2019 8:09 PM

2019-05-13T20:09:24-04:00

I worked as a GS-11 in the 1st Special Warfare Training Group. I would never even entertain a thought of dropping a soldier for pushups.

Response by SGT Warren Crutcher made May 13 at 2019 8:57 PM

2019-05-13T20:57:17-04:00

The Key word in the equation is "CIVILIAN". Not happening.

Response by PFC Brian Hoyt made May 13 at 2019 9:02 PM

2019-05-13T21:02:26-04:00

Civilians DO NOT receive or require salutes from military persons. THey are wrong to request or demand a salute.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made May 13 at 2019 9:24 PM

2019-05-13T21:24:54-04:00

I don't think so, and I haven't ever met a DA Civilian who tried such a stunt. DA Civilians are in staff positions but are very rarely in TOE units.

Response by SGT Charles Tillman made May 14 at 2019 12:07 PM

2019-05-14T12:07:41-04:00

A civilian contractor has no authority to order a soldier to do anything. If he asked nicely and his request was reasonable I might try to accommodate him. Otherwise he could kiss my ass!

Response by SCPO William Garnett made May 14 at 2019 3:58 PM

2019-05-14T15:58:02-04:00

NOT NO , BUT HELL NO! NOT IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND ANYWHERE!

Response by CW4 Jim Shelburn made May 14 at 2019 5:45 PM

2019-05-14T17:45:39-04:00

No. Absolutely not.

Response by SFC Enrique DeJesus made May 14 at 2019 6:27 PM

2019-05-14T18:27:36-04:00

A civilian has no AR 600-20 (Army Command Policy) authority over any service member.

Response by CPL Stephen Patterson made May 15 at 2019 1:33 PM

2019-05-15T13:33:33-04:00

Hell no

Response by SPC Chris Ison made May 15 at 2019 1:40 PM

2019-05-15T13:40:42-04:00

No. They have no military authority.

Response by LTC James Kanouse made May 15 at 2019 1:46 PM

2019-05-15T13:46:15-04:00

Response by SFC John Reeder made May 15 at 2019 8:43 PM

2019-05-15T20:43:02-04:00

When I was the S4 NCOIC for 1-16 Cav a S3 Civilian told me he was a retired 1SG and I would go to Parade Rest when I approached him. I fell over laughing and the S3 walked out and said, Sergeant, he is serious! I laughed and replied, Sir, that is the fucked up part! This Moron actually believes I should do that. That evening my Daughter had a friend coming over. Her Dad came to get her and guess who it was? He just looked at me and hung his head. So the answer is hell no!

Response by Sgt Randolph Gulley Jr made May 16 at 2019 12:25 AM

2019-05-16T00:25:43-04:00

Civilian should never be able to make any military personnel do push ups.

Response by 1SG Patrick McKelvey made May 16 at 2019 9:50 AM

2019-05-16T09:50:11-04:00

I almost.pulled something laughing at this. As a retired 1SG if I were a civilian and saw this I'd perform 3 actions 1) stio that civilian dead I their tracks 2) inform the SM that she needed to report to her chain if command instantly and in writing this incident 3) demand the contact information for the civilians direct supervisor and contact them directly to un fuck said civilian and remind them that retaliation of a reported incident Carrie's with it severe consequences. Depending on my I traction with Said GS would determine the manner of my delivery but the message would be the same. Ni, not ever. I stood at attention to address a Congresswoman but I would never, ever drop down and knock them out on a "command".

Response by MSG Arla Tweedy made May 16 at 2019 10:10 AM

2019-05-16T10:10:42-04:00

Not a chance in hell. What my troops would see is me walking away w/said civilian- and not overhear the choice words I would provide to that individual.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made May 16 at 2019 3:42 PM

2019-05-16T15:42:23-04:00

My Army buddy and I retired as Master Sergeants. We were both interpreters/infantrymen back in the day. He became the head of the JCRC. He would never demand a pushup from an enlisted man. In my opinion any civilian over a military unit has no concept of the humiliation that a soldier in uniform experiences from a civilian over him. Only the CIC has that opportunity as a civilian. I don't give a shit if the civilian is a retired General the person is now a civilian. Respecto is warranted but not humiliation.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2019 7:25 AM

2019-05-17T07:25:32-04:00

Lol. Just let it go! Your time has passed!!!!
Respect : Yeah!
Corrective training: hhheeeeellllllll to the nnnaaawww

Response by SSG Rick Miller made May 19 at 2019 10:46 AM

2019-05-19T10:46:03-04:00

It might be fun to watch. Said civilian would most likely get butthurt in the extreme. It may not be illegal, but it most assuredly is unwise. The difference between intelligence and wisdom? Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing you don't want it in your fruit salad.

Response by SPC David Young made May 21 at 2019 8:00 AM

2019-05-21T08:00:13-04:00

I only saw that once and it was at Fort Dix, NJ in 1990. I was a Private in Basic Training. The civilian employee was a retired CSM. I was part of a detail that got sent to clean the office that he ran on main post. Somebody did something stupid and he saw it. I think you know what happened next. Everyone there knew who this man was and that included myself and the other young recruits. In his case, I think an exception was made.

Response by SSG Walter Corretjer made May 21 at 2019 1:21 PM

2019-05-21T13:21:22-04:00

Of course not.
Civilians are civilians and soldiers are soldiers.
I can't understand how people have doubts, about something so simple and elementary.

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made May 23 at 2019 5:43 PM

2019-05-23T17:43:21-04:00

As an NCO I would like to think you wouldn’t allow a civilian to trouble your Soldiers. As Senior NCO if you are accepting that much flak from a Civilian, I think you need to seek some serious personal counseling from your 1SG/CSM. I once had a GS civilian as my rater but all UCMJ was still via unit - just saying - SFC(RET)

Response by CW4 John Soto made May 23 at 2019 7:20 PM

2019-05-23T19:20:54-04:00

I retired after serving 31 years and now am a GS civilian. So what is the rest of the story on this as I think it could have been done in playing around and now it's being exaggerated like our daily news. As for Soldiers having to listen to civilians for work purposes; it is part of the system. I had a MAJOR, SFC, and CPT that worked for me and I was their rater. Having to salute a civilian is a total no- go and not required nor is doing push ups that us if that is what really happened.

Response by CW4 Jo King made May 24 at 2019 11:15 AM

2019-05-24T11:15:46-04:00

Hell no! If I ever saw a Civilian (non veteran) smoking a soldier I would make sure that it never acured again. Let me be clear, retired CSM sees something that needs his/he's attention...no problem, but they are family, a pure civilian is not. I have seen them use their Civilian CAC cards to get military discounts and I call them out on it. To me it is stolen valor

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made Jun 4 at 2019 2:56 AM

2019-06-04T02:56:44-04:00

If the Civilian is a Supervisory Staff Administrator (SSA) then, he is acting Commander in the absence of the Uniformed Commander. In this capacity, the SSA has every right to discipline those assigned to the Unit that are out-of-line. This Civilian Leader can also order physical training, if he feels the Unit will be better prepared. In the absence of the Commander, the SSA is the authority. The Commander has faith in his decision making abilities, which is why this Civilian Leader is there; the SSA represents the Commander.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2019 12:13 PM

2019-06-07T12:13:32-04:00

My rater just told me to do my apft so she can close out my evaluation. So I just did push ups for a GS15.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2019 11:16 AM

2019-06-17T11:16:41-04:00

As a retired DA civilian, that is something I never did or thought of doing. Not legal and any DA civilian who is guilty of such action should be counseled by his/her superior.

Response by SGT Drue Rockwell made Jun 17 at 2019 12:35 PM

2019-06-17T12:35:04-04:00

Never in a million years. No. They have no standing in the rank structure.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2019 2:08 PM

2019-06-17T14:08:17-04:00

A civilian is is what he is a civilian, if he wants to impose corrective action on a Soldier then he should not have gotten out. What he needs to do is inform the Soldier's chain of command and STAY IN HIS CIVILIAN LANE

Response by CPO Jim Krenek made Jun 17 at 2019 6:28 PM

2019-06-17T18:28:08-04:00

Not only no but he'll no!!

Response by SSG David Spooner made Jun 18 at 2019 12:10 PM

2019-06-18T12:10:47-04:00

Not no but HELL NO!!!! A civilian has ZERO corrective authority over Soldiers.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2019 4:01 PM

2019-06-19T16:01:02-04:00

Most GS12 and above were generally Senior Enlisted or Officer in their prior lives. Notice I said prior... they are more than likely retired military. That means they are no longer in the military and there isn't a regulation that I'm aware of that provides guidance or direction of civilian or retired/prior service with the authority to act in the capacity of someone that still is in the service of the Armed Forces. I for one wouldn't want to "make" a soldier do pushups or salute me if I were was retired or in the GS capacity.

Response by SGT Janet Wyatt made Jun 20 at 2019 7:22 AM

2019-06-20T07:22:32-04:00

If a civilian wants to drop a soldier let him/her become a soldier, come up the ranks and then earn the respect to do so, otherwise, he’ll no!

Response by PO3 James Bobiney made Jun 20 at 2019 10:43 AM

2019-06-20T10:43:53-04:00

Idk if it's legal or not. But a Civilian DAC or not has NO authority to demand or initiate corrective action on a Military Member. I believe they must contact his Military superiors. Don't quote me, but I think that's how it supposed to work.

Response by Lt Col Paul Maxwell made Jun 20 at 2019 11:39 AM

2019-06-20T11:39:47-04:00

I would have neither the legal/legit authority, nor the actual/functional authority... and to try to exert such authority, PARTICULARLY FOR SOMETHING like ‘on spot correction’ Even as an ACTUAL OFFICER, my tendency and preference would be to refer such a concern back to the 1st Sgt for resolution. Petty goofy power trips usually only generate awkward moments and sometimes laughter... as noted by many others here. And to try to THAT with a Sr NCO or Junior Officer? Absurd... and deserving of subsequent guidance and counseling from the WING/BATTALION/DIVISION COMMANDER.... and never would be well respected again. CIVILIANS get equivalent rank for lodging/travel/courtesy issues, not for giving orders. Dropping a NCO or OFFICER for pushups.... is something ONLY done by instructor cadre at training programs.

Response by Sgt Anthony Leverington made Jun 20 at 2019 11:44 AM

2019-06-20T11:44:57-04:00

Regardless of what department they are in, they are still civilians. You do not salute them and they cannot give you orders of any kind. Any corrective actions should be left up to your CO or unit lead.

Response by SP5 Tony Dellosso made Jun 21 at 2019 12:52 AM

2019-06-21T00:52:43-04:00

In '67, I was in basic at Ft Jackson. I took a bus to Atlanta to visit my aunt. I arrived at 8AM. While waiting at the bus terminal for a pickup, a baby faced Atlanta PC approached and asked what I was doing there, then requested to see my pass. He asked another question, to which I replied, "Yeah." with great indigence, he replied, "YEAH?" Realizing that I was in the Deep South, I came back with a stern, YES SIR. This punk had no authority, but the power of the badge. He hadn't noticed that I was 50 miles past my authorized limit. Sometimes it's best to suck it up, and just walk away safe.

Response by MAJ Milan George made Jun 21 at 2019 10:29 AM

2019-06-21T10:29:31-04:00

Not only NO, but HELL NO. Outside a school environment, Sr NCO's and Officers (All Grades) shouldn't be dropped. But a civilian, regardless of their GS level doesn't have the authority to "correct" any service member, regardless of rank.

Response by Gregory Pasquier made Jun 21 at 2019 12:38 PM

2019-06-21T12:38:59-04:00

No, that isn’t the responsibility of a GS civil servant. I am a civil servant (GS-11), and I only give advice or instructions to soldiers. It’s up to their command to discipline their troops.

Response by Capt Michael Wilford made Jun 21 at 2019 6:02 PM

2019-06-21T18:02:31-04:00

As there is no legal precedent for senior enlisted personnel from any branch of service to impose pushups, i. e. corrective action, there is also no legal precedence for GS civilians to do the same thing. That said, it has been a long-standing and accepted tradition to impose this type of corrective action in the ranks as a way to redirect errant behavior that does not warrant Article 15 or harsher punishment. The question should be, “is it moral and ethical for a GS employee to impose this corrective action on a service member?” The answer is a solid NO, even if said GS employee is a former senior NCO or a former commissioned officer.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2019 7:00 PM

2019-06-21T19:00:09-04:00

Not at all.

Response by Cpl Edward Conley made Jun 22 at 2019 2:58 PM

2019-06-22T14:58:22-04:00

Was this just a hypothetical question? I've never heard of such a thing unless the civilian was just being a prick. Aside from serving in the Marine Corps in a combat role in Vietnam, years later I was a DOD civilian and had military that technically I supervised, but ultimately their 1st Sgt over ruled any of my authority when it came to actual military related activities, if this is true , he was totally out of line to say the least.

Response by SFC Cal Brokaw made Jun 23 at 2019 12:46 AM

2019-06-23T00:46:06-04:00

No they have no authority over military personnel. As a retired AGR n GS - 12, the first thing I was told was leave the soldiers to the NCO,s n officers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2019 5:30 PM

2019-06-23T17:30:58-04:00

When I was a young E5, I had a female(important in a moment) civilian contractor decide to tell me to not only get in the front leaning rest but that I should do it quickly because she was a former E6 42A. I laughed, a real and honest laugh, because she felt that I should have responded to her ridiculous command based on her rank when she served. I respectfully told her to bring it to my 1SG or, if she felt really ambitious, someone higher. She proceeded to go directly to my BC, who also found it amusing AND puzzling, to "report my insubordination". After he firmly and directly explained to her that she was out of her f@#$ing mind she began to assert it was because she was a female and we, yes WE, had a problem with her and her authority. After a few days of her making enough noise, she was quickly moved to the Green Zone and then back to the states. All over her perception that her rank from her days in uniform somehow transferred to her civilian career.

Response by MAJ Francis St.Jacques made Jun 23 at 2019 6:02 PM

2019-06-23T18:02:22-04:00

I would make that TWO feet, a civilian is still JUST THAT a civilian

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2019 7:37 PM

2019-06-23T19:37:16-04:00

Negative

Response by LT Ed Skiba made Jun 23 at 2019 9:24 PM

2019-06-23T21:24:21-04:00

Totally ridiculous question.

Response by SPC Barry Black made Jun 24 at 2019 2:00 PM

2019-06-24T14:00:48-04:00

Absolutely never. A senior NCO and any ranking officer as well as a WO.

Response by LTC Gary Earls made Jun 24 at 2019 2:21 PM

2019-06-24T14:21:50-04:00

I had two situations at Fort Campbell in 1990/91. I was a Major(P) and in charge of the flight simulation facility. We had an Apache unit which needed more training. My GS civilian who was the Contract Representative was in the hospital. So I called the Material Command in St. Louis and requested more time for the unit to train them. The AMC got upset that I called and not my representative. They told me no bur hell no. I called my contact who was a GS-15 and told him what happened and what I needed. He told me that he was going upstairs and have his two star call the one star in St.Louis. Got the extra time.

After the Gulf War was over and an aviation battalion was coming back to Campbell before they went to St. Louis. My Reserve boss ( LTC) told me to go to the Air Force folks at Campbell and see when they dropped the personnel at Campbell, if they could continue to St. Louis and deplaned the helicopters. The story was the Vice-President Dan Quayle was going to St.Louis to welcome them home. The Air Force told me no because their aircraft had another location to go to.
The GS mobilization director somehow found out what I asked the Air Force. He called me and proceeded to chew my butt. I already had a GS-9 who was filing everything he could against me so I was very very familiar with the civilian regs. When I told the mob director that we were trying to get the battalion home so the Vice President could welcome them home. In his chewing out of me, he said, " F**k, Dan Quayle and then he hung up. I filed a complaint against him for his disrespect. Didn't have to deal with him again. :-)

Response by 1SG Ron Schlatter made Jun 25 at 2019 12:11 PM

2019-06-25T12:11:06-04:00

I had a discussion with a DOA civilian's regarding our mission and as a 1SG of that unit any corrective actions would be imposed by the chain of command. They didn't like it but they understood we would conduct ourselves in a military manner concerning discipline.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Jun 25 at 2019 12:36 PM

2019-06-25T12:36:49-04:00

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed .......".etc.... I don't see "GS-10" on there anywhere. Who signs your FitRep?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2019 1:13 PM

2019-06-25T13:13:55-04:00

This is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a while! I’d laugh in that civvies face and walk tf away

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2019 7:44 AM

2019-06-26T07:44:37-04:00

Are there really that many douche bags out there? Pushups??
I had a gf who was a GS 11 she busted my balls at home about dishes left in the sink and my weights all over the living room. I worked with a few civilians as a Corpsman but they were often prior military or retired. Most were cool and great to work with. They were anti-chickenshit. Warehouse and purchasing at the naval hospital. They ran the place and called our mousy Navy LT “Mom”

Response by SPC Tom Greulich made Jun 26 at 2019 4:03 PM

2019-06-26T16:03:14-04:00

They’re a friggin civilian! Why would they think they could order any soldier to do push-ups.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2019 10:12 PM

2019-06-26T22:12:00-04:00

If either a senior NCO or an officer don't know, they deserve to for being stupid and not knowing their and his place in the food chain.
Who comes up with dumb shit like this anyway ?

Response by SSgt Doug LeKander made Jun 26 at 2019 11:16 PM

2019-06-26T23:16:24-04:00

The GS doesn't have a leg to stand on. Tell him to get bent.

Response by MSG Edward Sheppard made Jun 27 at 2019 12:33 AM

2019-06-27T00:33:36-04:00

No, a civilian employee does not have the authority to impose corrective actions on a soldier. And in the same vein a military NCO or officer doesn't have authority over a civilian employee. The correct action is to report the problem to their respective chain of command. As a former 1SG who worked with GS and WG employees this was our direction from higher command. And as a GS-14 with DHS who worked with military staff I continually had to remind the senior officers attached to our organization that they needed to go through me to even hand out assignments to my GS employees and especially my contract employees.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jun 27 at 2019 12:51 AM

2019-06-27T00:51:15-04:00

No. They can kiss my a$$ if they tell me to do it

Response by SGT Greg Goheen made Jun 27 at 2019 9:57 AM

2019-06-27T09:57:02-04:00

Shouldn't be if it is.

Response by 1SG Juan Mafnas made Jun 27 at 2019 12:04 PM

2019-06-27T12:04:37-04:00

A GS Civilian, is not part of the military Chain of Command and does not have authority under the Uniform Code of Military Justice to make a soldier do push ups as a form of corrective actions. The fact that they are not a Commissioned Officer or an NCO, a soldier is not required to adhere to these corrective actions imposed by a civilian.

Response by SFC Mark Klaers made Jun 28 at 2019 1:45 PM

2019-06-28T13:45:03-04:00

Even if it is, there would be a whole lot of "Kiss my ass!" flying out of my mouth!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2019 4:56 PM

2019-06-28T16:56:41-04:00

Not even a little bit.

Response by 1SG Larry Peebles made Jun 28 at 2019 10:49 PM

2019-06-28T22:49:00-04:00

I'm a retired army 1SG and a retired army civilian GS13. I realized early on that a civilian doing a job that involves military members has to have the authority to make corrections when a soldier's conduct or performance is hurting mission achievement, but it sure does not involve pushups or the like. Every soldier has a sergeant (or should have one!!!) who is available to full fill the chain of command responsibilities, if it becomes necessary. Some civilians are definitely trying to make up for a lack of manly body hair and a short d**k when they interact with our junior soldiers (read bullying, that's what it is.) As a GS13, the job that I held in Korea made me combat essential, meaning when the war started I would stay at my duty position as opposed to being evacuated. My GS rating was used to determine my POW status if captured, hence I had a Geneva Convention card that basically put me in the category of the field grade officers and I would be held with the field grade officers (whoopee) instead of the other folks. I could go on but by now you are tired of reading this bull and have moved on. Regards and keep up the fire.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jun 30 at 2019 8:56 PM

2019-06-30T20:56:05-04:00

Not at all. I am a retired USMC SNCO and a current GS11. The rank structure does allow for Senior ranking GS employees to be put in leadership roles and also be in charge of active duty to include signing off on Fitness reports. But there is a line you generally don’t cross and smoking troops is one of them. Civilians can’t go there with each other and certainly can’t with troops

Response by Neal Chamberlain made Jul 1 at 2019 12:33 AM

2019-07-01T00:33:54-04:00

As a career civilian, the question sounds absurd to me. My thought is Hell to the no!

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jul 2 at 2019 5:40 PM

2019-07-02T17:40:11-04:00

I’d be telling him to go eat sand or s’thing Along that line, Sir !

Response by MSgt Bedell Toro made Jul 5 at 2019 9:53 AM

2019-07-05T09:53:11-04:00

Never heard of a Civilian Govt Official dropping a Service Vet for push ups. I'm assuming the only civilian that can do that would be the POTUS.

Response by Todd B made Jul 13 at 2019 12:16 AM

2019-07-13T00:16:33-04:00

I supervise soldiers, and that's the most ridiculous thing i've heard.

Response by 1SG Carlos E Bonet made Jul 16 at 2019 10:49 AM

2019-07-16T10:49:47-04:00

Hell no, his not on my chain of command, and NCO are leaders, we do push ups with our troops to show team work and to built spirit corp. Is demeaning to his position , to his soldiers and worst of all, to the NCO Corp. Theres other ways to get your point across when you deal with first line supervisors.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2019 6:45 AM

2019-07-18T06:45:16-04:00

ARMY STRONG!!!!

Response by CPT David Borell made Jul 26 at 2019 8:22 PM

2019-07-26T20:22:47-04:00

“Legal“? Sure, it would be legal for a civilian to demand such a thing. Proper? Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!....(breathe)....Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!....no.

Response by MAJ Charles Cozzens made Jul 27 at 2019 10:53 AM

2019-07-27T10:53:43-04:00

absurd

Response by Capt Wayne Burden made Jul 28 at 2019 1:32 PM

2019-07-28T13:32:46-04:00

The GS-15 (civilian equivalent to an O-6) MAY be in their chain of command (i.e. they work directly for the civilian), but by virtue of the fact they ARE a civilian, they do no have the authority to inflict on the spot punishment. Even a full Colonel would have to answer to a higher authority if they tried to pull such a stunt, as this would be very demeaning and severely affect good order and discipline. This kind of thing is for boot camp only and to a private, not a career NCO or Officer.

Response by SPC Steve Willis, PhD made Jul 29 at 2019 6:43 PM

2019-07-29T18:43:23-04:00

If someone is not in my chain of command or of superior military rank, my response is scroom!

Response by SPC W. Neil Cantor made Jul 30 at 2019 10:31 AM

2019-07-30T10:31:43-04:00

No way a GS 20K can give a soldier punishment. Not legally!

Response by CAPT Jim Murphy made Jul 30 at 2019 1:46 PM

2019-07-30T13:46:37-04:00

Are you kidding?

Response by SPC Brian Bay made Jul 30 at 2019 3:17 PM

2019-07-30T15:17:41-04:00

Me to the DoD Civillian: "I will kindly invite you to intercourse your headwear, sir." (Translation: "Go fuck your hat!!!")

Response by CPT Paul Bass made Aug 1 at 2019 10:32 AM

2019-08-01T10:32:26-04:00

As a civilian instructor in the 91V Respiratory Specialist program (1975-82) and dealing with all enlisted/NCO students if I had a need to seek discipline on a student all I had to do was present the facts to our NCOIC , and he would deal with it. You didnt want him coming down on you !

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Aug 1 at 2019 7:12 PM

2019-08-01T19:12:47-04:00

The answer is a resounding NO.
Civilians hold no official military rank, and only in certain circumstances are they obligated to rate military members. I repeat, they CANNOT make a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine do push ups. Even if they are Military Technician, if they are not on military duty, they have no authority to require military uniform personnel to be corrected.

Response by SSG Brad Kachurka made Aug 9 at 2019 4:02 PM

2019-08-09T16:02:15-04:00

I'd tell him why dont we go down to Starbucks and I can buy him an extra large cup of shut the fuck up.

Response by SPC Nicholas Wood made Aug 9 at 2019 4:13 PM

2019-08-09T16:13:07-04:00

I would laugh at him, give him my supervisors name, laughed some more and told him to go do civilian things and let me do my job.

Response by SPC Darren Coffenberry made Aug 9 at 2019 4:16 PM

2019-08-09T16:16:11-04:00

Civilians only have authority over troops who work directly for them. Even then military commanders have final authority over servicemembers. Furthermore, civilians are not in command of the troops they supervise. “The only civilians in the operational chain of military command are the president and the secretary of defense,” . “Service secretaries also have certain authorities, but not in the same operational sense.”Civilian supervisors still have lots of authority over troops, For example, they can assign tasks, and assess troops’ performance. But they cannot perform functions of command, such as process disciplinary actions. Instead, they are supposed to recommend such actions to the soldier’s commander. When the commander is not available, a subordinate military officer assumes command, not the civilian.

Response by Maj Tim Rogers made Aug 9 at 2019 4:35 PM

2019-08-09T16:35:22-04:00

Under no circumstances. GS employees my have position authority over a Servicemember, but a) they don't have command or UCMJ authority over uniformed Servicemembers, and b) "corrective physical training" is not authorized outside basic training (i.e. Boot Camp).

Response by SPC Randall PeQueen made Aug 9 at 2019 5:25 PM

2019-08-09T17:25:51-04:00

No.

Response by LCpl Rich Vail made Aug 9 at 2019 8:40 PM

2019-08-09T20:40:53-04:00

No, it's not. He's not in your chain of command. My first instinct would be to tell this individual to "take a flying **** at rolling doughnut". My 2nd one was to say "go **** yourself, sir"...

Response by SN Mike Duffy made Aug 9 at 2019 10:03 PM

2019-08-09T22:03:53-04:00

I ain't even gonna look it up. I'd whisper something about changing your pills and a piss test.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Aug 10 at 2019 7:54 AM

2019-08-10T07:54:27-04:00

Tell them to pound sand. When I was the science is Ada staff there was AGS 15 who was a retired 5th army command sergeant major. He was a condescending a******. I went out of my way to call him by his 1st name. If he wanted to see me I walked in and sat down. Just...no. Become SecArmy, SecDef, VPOTUS, or POTUS if you want to be a civilian that gets sir'd & saluted.

Response by CPO Gene Gysin made Aug 10 at 2019 11:05 PM

2019-08-10T23:05:31-04:00

Absolutely not!

Response by MSG Hubert Motte made Aug 10 at 2019 11:35 PM

2019-08-10T23:35:22-04:00

Not even on his best day. I am a retired 1SG and the only civilian that could possibly give that order would be the Sec of the Army and the POTUS if any.

Response by SGT David Petree made Aug 10 at 2019 11:47 PM

2019-08-10T23:47:30-04:00

there's is always a few that think there S*** don`t STINK … But NO they are not . They could take it up the chain . If they wanted to make what ever formal . But it usably falls on DEFF EARS.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Aug 11 at 2019 12:45 AM

2019-08-11T00:45:50-04:00

I've never even HEARD of something like that!

Response by MSgt Glenn Crapps made Aug 11 at 2019 4:44 AM

2019-08-11T04:44:35-04:00

No. Not lawful.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 11 at 2019 9:19 AM

2019-08-11T09:19:50-04:00

I worked under a lot of civil servants when I'd been in, aside from sevl active duty, all fairly high up...one civil servant was a GS-15, with him I was way, way outta my league, as well as woefully, abysmally, laughably inexperienced...he also was way too high to teach me properly, though, had I known how to learn from him the right way, I would've obv been far more well off, certainly...that was one of the things I'd never been told about in either Army ROTC or USAF OTS...obv, I should've expected it, of course, the whole working under civil-service thing...then again, I was way too completely green to know the reality of how svcs actually functioned at that point, which is why, as I've said many times, had I actually been prior enlisted first, I might actually have had something of a clue as to basic realities before I ever tried to learn to function in the role I eventually found myself in, you know? Eventually, I was placed under a GS/GM-14 who did take the time to try to teach me right, plus, I was far more experienced at that point, and he, and the O-5 above him I was also under were actually making a good deal of progress with me...the head of our floor was actually an SES-4, which I had no clue existed as a civilian grade, nor did I even remotely understand the level of, until way, way too late to do me any good...he could've, and maybe even would've, tried to have opened doors for me to have gone to one of the bery best grad schools in the country for my masters and PhD part time, of which he'd been an alumnus, for which mistake, I can most definitely assure all of you, I still kick myself quite regularly...in short, to say that I completely bollixed up virtually everything I ever did with all of them would most definitely be an understatement of recorded history, I assure all of you...whatever gaffes all of you might've ever done while in, mine exceeded all of yours by a factor of about at least a 1000 or so, minimum, that I also most definitely know for an absolute fact, I've been told so unequivocally, six ways from Sunday, in such a way as to leave virtually and absolutely zero doubt about it whatsoever....

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Aug 11 at 2019 2:00 PM

2019-08-11T14:00:36-04:00

Who in the hell even thought of that question to ask. Are you serious. A civilian wouldn't have the nerve to come up with an Order like that. Civilians work for the military. When the 205th Ord Plt. (Ammo) was created in Washington by the Brass to send 75 Men to Vietnam in two wks. in 65. We didn't have much time. I a SP/5 was acting supply Sgt. We could get everything we required ASAP. I used my personal vehicle to go around base (Ft. Knox) dealing with civilians. I told them what I was their for. I told them what was required for the 205th. I got the equipment I asked for no, questions asked. They knew we were going to Viet Nam although it was supposed to be a secret. They wished me good luck although the destination was never mentioned. 2wks we were on the MSTS Mann. heading for Asia. Semper fi.

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Aug 11 at 2019 4:28 PM

2019-08-11T16:28:22-04:00

Had it happen years ago.. I was pissed and said then write me up. He tried it died.

Response by 1SG Thomas Jasak made Aug 11 at 2019 8:19 PM

2019-08-11T20:19:14-04:00

Absolutely not! I would tell the to pound sand no matter what rank I was

Response by SPC Paul Adams made Aug 11 at 2019 9:49 PM

2019-08-11T21:49:27-04:00

If a Private First Class told you to push would you?

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Aug 11 at 2019 10:00 PM

2019-08-11T22:00:39-04:00

Under what condition, but usually no. Why would the GS want to do such a stunt? In any case, he could be their rater, but still asking or demanding a soldier to do push-ups is over the top. In my time as a civilian supervising enlisted and officers, I would not ask them to do push ups. If there was a discipline problem, I would just ask the CSM to stop by and in the case of an enlisted person, he would be expected to handle the matter. If the officer is the problem, then my boss was the CG. (Wonder if he could demand i do pushups? <g>.) A short sidebar w/ him, the CoS or the HQ commander would be all that I would need to do. I could also tank the officer on their OER or the enllisted on their EER if the needed, but using pushup as a discipline tool, never.

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Aug 13 at 2019 11:54 PM

2019-08-13T23:54:47-04:00

Yes! not only illegal but unethical for a civilian to administer corrective action or dressing down a service member. However a civilian can file a report IAW the Manual of Court Martial. I all most had to exercise that right because a NCO was being disrespectful to an enlistee that was under my charge. Not going into depth but the NCO was belittling, cussing and calling him deoggery names because the enlistee would not fill out a form pertaining to his family (PII) that was not approved by the post or DA and it didn't have the Privacy Act statement on the form. I confronted the NCO and told/ordered him to apologize (If he didn't, I disclosed the proceedings to the NCO) to the enlistee and then I ask the enlistee if he want to press charges IAW the UCMJ. The end result is that that the NCO had a different prospective toward enlisted personnel.

Response by MSG James Prim made Aug 17 at 2019 6:40 PM

2019-08-17T18:40:52-04:00

I agree, I was a MSG E8 and I would have taken the civilian in a room and close the door and tell him what I think of his demand and probably tell him he has a choice to reassign himself or I would do everything to do it for him.

Response by LTC Philip Marlowe made Aug 22 at 2019 12:11 AM

2019-08-22T00:11:42-04:00

I've been a GS 14 and - admittedly they are close to God Like when entering a military installation, but I would NEVER have even considered, much less attempted, to correct any soldier, irrespective of rank. HOWEVER, with that being said, I too - as many of us have - had an experience with a GS Civilian. While deployed to the Balkans, my experience was with an Area Support Group G4, GS 12 supply clerk, at Camp Bondsteel Kosovo, who told my BSB S4 and then me "he would approve my request for an additional ration issue of steaks and chicken". At t he time, I was the CDR, Base Support Battalion, Camp Able Sentry and I had had my BSB S4 submit a requisition of an additional ration issue of Steaks and Chicken to support a 4th of July celebration we were planning for the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) as it transited CAS on their way to 'a location we shall not name - but everyone has heard of'. When I called to discuss it, he simply told me HE did not approve my request. Needless to say, I explained the difference between my position as COMMANDER and his as staff. The end result was the MEU got their steaks and chicken. Sometimes, a simple bit authority can truly go to some people's heads. My experience is the less authority someone has, the more they feel the need to use every bit of it and the more authority they have, the less they use.

Response by SGT Andy Jackson made Aug 27 at 2019 1:21 PM

2019-08-27T13:21:47-04:00

As an 18 yr. PFC I told an Asst. Sec. of Def. he eas not in my chain of command and had no legal right to order the ems around. Top came to the rescue and I never heard another word about it. 1981. Times were different.

Response by Sgt Steve Williams made Sep 7 at 2019 7:54 PM

2019-09-07T19:54:49-04:00

No, but it might be OK to slap the crap out of the civilian.

Response by MAJ Eric Greek made Sep 23 at 2019 10:34 AM

2019-09-23T10:34:56-04:00

Tread carefully.
The GS ranks, particularly the more senior GS ranks, are in many cases a good old boy network. It takes concerted effort to remove this from a command. I watched a CoS fight tirelessly to remove this stain. Every week he had to either rescind a hiring offer that was blatantly nepotistic or involve himself in a hiring action to prevent such a result. In commands without this kind of leadership (backed by the CG) ... it gets bad very quickly. If this guy is part of the in crowd and you protest what are the chances that he is going to go back to senior military leaders and make you out to be a POS. What is the chance that the abuse will then just come from senior military leaders too busy to care about the niceties of whether it should come from a GS and more concerned about the correcting YOUR behavior.

One could lament the lack of professionalism. Managers in every company outside the military that attempted to use this 'leadership' style would simply be fired. Period. There are ways to correct behavior that do not require denigration, and most companies seem to have figured that out. Wishing that the military could similarly professionalize their HQ's so that whether you are in or out of uniform did not matter will not it so.

My advice would be to approach one of the SGM's that proliferate in these HQ's and have them attempt to reign in the behavior (no one screws with E-9's). Even then, no one said doing the right thing is easy ... only that it is necessary.

Response by SFC Kenny Cockrum made Sep 26 at 2019 8:13 AM

2019-09-26T08:13:48-04:00

As an E-7 I did a tour of duty at the Armor and Engineer Test Board at Ft. Knox from 1986-89. My rater was a GS-15 and the reviewer was an O-6. We had a great relationship and I enjoyed that assignment very much, but I can't imagine the civilian trying to make me do pushups. Glad I never had to test the idea!

Response by SFC Regina Boyd made Sep 26 at 2019 1:48 PM

2019-09-26T13:48:18-04:00

Unless the Army has really changed in the last 20 years since I retired, HELL NO!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2019 3:43 PM

2019-09-26T15:43:12-04:00

The bigger issue here is that it is not "corrective action" unless it is directed related to the issue needing correction. Therefore any Officer, NCO, or GS employee ordering any SM to do push ups unless they are correcting thier PT failure is a huge No-Go.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2019 4:15 PM

2019-09-26T16:15:08-04:00

I would laugh at them. Then carry on

Response by SgtMaj Charles Spidell made Sep 26 at 2019 5:13 PM

2019-09-26T17:13:52-04:00

I’m amazed that this even a question. In my 28 years as a Marine, I had a few GS and SES types try to direct me around and they were told, sometimes not so tactfully, to piss off.

Response by MSG Devaun Morris made Sep 27 at 2019 7:36 AM

2019-09-27T07:36:33-04:00

A DA Civilian (GS 1-99) can expect Sr. NCOs and/or Jr. Officers to do push ups or even flutter kicks for that matter. However, whether or not they get them is wishful thinking.
Expectation Management

Response by MSG Eddie Robinson made Sep 28 at 2019 7:36 AM

2019-09-28T07:36:19-04:00

If a GS wanted to be a soldier, then stay a soldier, You are CIVILIAN and have no business interfering with Soldier's business!

Response by SFC Tom Lang made Sep 28 at 2019 3:32 PM

2019-09-28T15:32:21-04:00

Agree. Same holds true for Military Cadets during their active training prior to being commissioned.

Response by SGT Glenn E Moody made Sep 28 at 2019 11:14 PM

2019-09-28T23:14:39-04:00

I would have to say no it is not legal for any Military personal to give physical punishment to any one that is not in training status such as basic training or within a reasonable time of your yearly P T test period I read this from the Drill SGT training Manual at FT Benning I had A detail mowing the lawn I finished early they told me to hang out inside out of the heat. so I read this training manual that was under glass and just happened to be opened to that chapter. it said that no one can drop anyone for physical punishment unless in training for A physical training test. that is why you don't see it that much after Basic training. at your unit you all train for an upcoming PT test all together or waiting to go to basic to get you ready for what is coming at Basic training.

Response by SFC Tracy Donahoo made Sep 29 at 2019 9:15 AM

2019-09-29T09:15:48-04:00

Oh hell no!

Response by SFC William Allen made Sep 29 at 2019 9:24 AM

2019-09-29T09:24:25-04:00

Not only was I an SFC, I was a WG10 mechanic! I would never, in a million years, try to impose discipline on regular troops. It is unheard of and I would really like to know who wrote this silliness in the first place. Other than that, it gave me a good laugh!

Response by SSG Carlos Garcia made Sep 29 at 2019 9:00 PM

2019-09-29T21:00:33-04:00

No GS has such authority towards any of the enlisted or junior officer personnel. If he tried such a thing to one of the troopers of my platoon I would have eaten them like a piece of meat.

Response by SPC Donald Moore made Sep 30 at 2019 8:35 AM

2019-09-30T08:35:56-04:00

I think that I responded to this before but it came up in my news feed again. Military members should show respect to GS grades because the GS grade has a military rank equivalent, but the GS employee is not in the "Chain of Command" and that means they can't give binding orders.
In simple terms the command to do push-ups is an Order that can be given from someone in your chain of command and you must execute that order because it is not an illegal order.
That is about as simple as it gets.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2019 11:10 AM

2019-09-30T11:10:35-04:00

I suppose one could have demanded it of me, however, the response would not have been the push-ups. That said, I've worked with a bunch of civilians before and this never happened, not even by those who were retired officers or NCOs.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2019 6:46 PM

2019-09-30T18:46:58-04:00

It has nothing to do with legalities... speaking from a DoD Civilian / Army Reserve perspective, only to do with regulations. They do not have the right to drop you for push ups etc etc, they only have the rights to tell you to fix yourself via uniform regulations or for example “Remove those earrings you’re entering a military facility, base and due to regulations you aren’t allowed to enter this facility/base till you comply.” Now report whoever it is to their CoC and it’ll be fixed swiftly!

Response by Col Dan Ketter made Sep 30 at 2019 9:36 PM

2019-09-30T21:36:46-04:00

Nope its never lawful

Response by William Smith made Oct 1 at 2019 12:10 PM

2019-10-01T12:10:54-04:00

I am a retired SNCO USAF and now a GS. I work everday trying to help people do the job I spent my career in to be successful, I enjoy that very much. I feel lucky to still be in the environment and work and train the young folks. I do a technical job and there is much to pass on.

As far as equivalent rank there is none, there is a chart that says that but it is for protocol mainly dealing with things like allowances and housing etc.

However, conduct and respect is a responsibility shared by military and civilians. You probably would not want to be mouthing off in the manner expressed by many hear--if it does go by it would be because they chose not to say anything.
I think it is very bad advice to tell people to mouth off to GS 14s and 15s-they might not be military but guess who they sit next to.

There are difficult civilians and military--people are people

It does happen the other way around too, either way just be a professional

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Oct 2 at 2019 12:15 PM

2019-10-02T12:15:03-04:00

Hell no! Put that civilian in their place without hesitation. The civilian has one duty - manage administrative operations, tasks, and may be other civilians. They do NOT lead troops and by authority - they cannot Command or Order troops to do anything. Unless the civilian is the SecArmy, SecDef, or POTUS / CIC... tell them to get back to their desk or you'll be happy to help them find the unemployment line! I had a civilian GS-12 / PhD to try that with a MSG who worked for me once... that civilian found himself in a new assignment by the end of the week. I entered in the office - dismissed the MSG - and I tore into the civilian after quietly observing his intolerable abusive tone. He thought because he was a PhD and a GS-12 that made him equal to Zeus! There are plenty of civilians who are great to work with and some are also admirable leaders, but they should never be confused that they have the power to be abusive or like bullies towards troops. The military trusts us to protect our troops - use your rank and position to do so - fight the good fight... you'll be glad you did and your troops will garner a new level of trust for you and other civilians will respect you - and then the word will get out --- "don't mess with that Officer's troops"!

Response by LtCol Bob Gattuso made Oct 7 at 2019 7:17 AM

2019-10-07T07:17:56-04:00

As a retired Marine LtCol, and a current GS-15, I never wear my former rank. I insist that everyone call me by my first name no matter what military rank or GS grade. I’ve taken off my uniform, I am not in any chain of command, there for I am in no position to impose and type of njp or remedial action on a service member. If the act they did was that much of an issue I’d refer it to the senior military member and be done with it.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Oct 7 at 2019 5:44 PM

2019-10-07T17:44:54-04:00

No, they can not the punisj solder only the can report to the squad or plt sgt. If civilian attempt and they soldier filed complaint against them then the cilvlian can be be in trouble for violations of rules and be counsel into their permanent record.

Response by SGT Jd Cox made Oct 9 at 2019 8:39 PM

2019-10-09T20:39:19-04:00

Not only no...But Hell no!. A civilian employee is just that, a civilian who has no more military authority than a McDonald's fry cook.

Response by SFC Jeff Garner made Oct 31 at 2019 6:13 PM

2019-10-31T18:13:14-04:00

AR 600-20 paragraph 4-6:

Corrective training must be related to the offense, oriented to improve the substandard performance, Can be after hours, can only be implemented until the deficiency is corrected.
AR 600-20 paragraph 4-20 further defines that it may be physical exercise with repetitions and that it must not be cruel and demeaning, it later requires that a soldier must be corrected by his controlling command and may refuse ..... but then the NCO can use formal counseling So its not wise to do so.

When at FT Ord (yes im that old) a civilian tried this with me as a corporal...... I did them, brought it to my chain of command..... It didnt turn out well for him.

Response by CWO3 Warren Gaudreau made Nov 8 at 2019 10:18 AM

2019-11-08T10:18:38-05:00

Absolutely NEVER! if there is a problem between the GS-whatever and a military member, the GS-whatever needs to get the soldier's military supervisor involved.

Response by Robert Fortin made Nov 8 at 2019 1:28 PM

2019-11-08T13:28:26-05:00

Hell no

Response by SSG Douglas Murphy made Nov 9 at 2019 1:17 PM

2019-11-09T13:17:27-05:00

Oh! Hell, No!

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Nov 9 at 2019 3:48 PM

2019-11-09T15:48:42-05:00

Normally, a GS has no business disciplining service members and their only recourse is to complain to someone in that service member’s chain of command. I can think of an exception and that would have to be in a situation where the GS employee is in some kind of special training billet and specifically tasked by the command with training that service member. The purpose of the pushups would have to be for the purpose of training... instructional in nature in order to get the service member’s attention for a mistake they made. They can’t discipline for anything military that is outside the scope of their training. For example, not saluting an officer is not something they could discipline the service member for; however, if the GS was teaching a class on hand to hand combat and the service member was not paying attention and incorrectly demonstrating the move, then I would say that the GS would be right to discipline because failure to learn could cost that service member their life. Better to do push-ups and focus, than be allowed to screw off and then screw up.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2019 6:32 PM

2019-11-09T18:32:11-05:00

I’m a CPT/27, all I can say is HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, no.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Nov 10 at 2019 9:28 AM

2019-11-10T09:28:18-05:00

Not on my watch. For my last year in the ARMY I was assigned to a staff unit and I worked for a GS14 and had 5 civilians who reported to me for Pay and time off. If my GS 14 would have had a problem with me they would address the grievance with me or my CoC. They had no authority over me except for input to my Co C.

Response by SSG Joseph Jopek made Nov 10 at 2019 12:37 PM

2019-11-10T12:37:05-05:00

When I was a young PFC I had a GS15 order me around a change of command ceremony, saying he had the authority of a Brigadier General. His wife a full Colonel overheard him ordering me around and walked over and told me to put the chairs down. She then told me to go take a break under the tree. She then lit her husband and told him that it would be a cold day in hell before a DA civilian orders one of her soldiers around. She ordered him to stack the chairs.

Response by CMSgt Charlie Eller made Nov 10 at 2019 4:50 PM

2019-11-10T16:50:45-05:00

It's not legal for them to demand it of an E-1!!

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Nov 10 at 2019 7:00 PM

2019-11-10T19:00:15-05:00

My father was a personnel CW4. If a DA civilian tried a stunt like that on him,or any of the soldiers he supervised, he had some friends at the Civilian Personnel Office. Chances are, that the civilian's personnel records would have somehow been mailed to the Canal Zone, and his financial folder would have been sent to Hawaii.

Response by CPO Paul Klein made Nov 11 at 2019 1:33 PM

2019-11-11T13:33:29-05:00

I would, not so politely, tell the civilian, to go active duty, or stfu and leave his crappy attitude towards the military members at home. He has no business telling any active duty anything to do with military discipline or behavior. He might have some sort of professional authority, such as an instructor, but that’s all they have.

Response by CPL Michael Headrick made Nov 11 at 2019 2:16 PM

2019-11-11T14:16:28-05:00

I would love for a civilian to try to 'order' me to do anything. I would simply walk away laughing my ass off hoping that the situation does not escalate from there. Don't poke old vets we will fight back when necessary every time.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2019 7:01 PM

2019-11-11T19:01:03-05:00

As a retired SR NCO I would have told a civilian to kiss my ass if he or she told me to do push-ups. If one of troops told me a civilian tried that I would be up his or her ass so fast. I am sure if they went to my 1SG he would chew there ass also.

Response by SGT Debra McDonough Travis made Nov 11 at 2019 7:37 PM

2019-11-11T19:37:50-05:00

Oh heck no. They are a civilian.

Response by CSM Jim Corrin made Nov 12 at 2019 11:07 AM

2019-11-12T11:07:32-05:00

I would respectfully request the civilian to "knock them out " with me

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Nov 12 at 2019 3:52 PM

2019-11-12T15:52:55-05:00

I witnessed the opposite happen: an active duty officer order a GS-12 to drop, citing the fact the 12 was a Navy Reserve E-6.

Response by CPT D O made Nov 12 at 2019 4:31 PM

2019-11-12T16:31:18-05:00

What is the context? Is it a retired CSM trying to exert his/her influence, or someone mistaking their uniform for authority that includes overriding said civilian? The latter is a point that needs to be addressed as there have been cases where (usually field grades) mistake their rank for authority to override federal law (18 USC and 5 CFR to be precise).

Response by Suzanne Miller made Nov 13 at 2019 12:34 PM

2019-11-13T12:34:24-05:00

I was a Department of Army civilian and was told and believed I worked FOR the soldier!!! No, No, Never to issue any order.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Nov 13 at 2019 1:40 PM

2019-11-13T13:40:47-05:00

Not only no, but hell no!!!’n

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2019 4:16 PM

2019-11-13T16:16:58-05:00

i need more context; this is too general. There are DA Civilians who actually rate Soldiers depending on the capacity in which they serve. (Although the push up thing is never warranted with a Sr. NCO in my humble opinion. ). What's the context?

When I was a DA Civilian I rated two Soldiers. However, I would never impose that type of "punishment"

Response by SFC Wayne Woollard made Nov 14 at 2019 8:24 AM

2019-11-14T08:24:34-05:00

NO!!! as a retired GS 15 and former 18 year veteran, a civilian cannot and does not, have COMMAND authority. If anything the civilian should be doing push ups as well in a show of comradery and solidarity.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2019 11:48 AM

2019-11-14T11:48:27-05:00

Equivalent is not equal too. The GS grade has the equivalent duties. So a GS12 would preform duties that a O4 would also preform in a staff position. The civilian may rate a Soldier but to demand pushups is laughable. There is even a class supervisory civilians are given in what they can or can't do. CAPTing is not one of them.

Response by COL G Wade made Nov 14 at 2019 4:11 PM

2019-11-14T16:11:54-05:00

This very question is absurd. No GS civilian has any level of command authority down to the individual service member.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2019 6:45 PM

2019-11-14T18:45:49-05:00

I doubt that it’s legal, and it certainly seems inappropriate.

Response by CPL Jeremy Glenn made Nov 14 at 2019 9:35 PM

2019-11-14T21:35:11-05:00

Absofrikinlutely not, and there’s nothing worse than a civilian who think they are in a position to drop a soldier. I got into several aggressive discussions with civies that think that way.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2019 9:24 AM

2019-11-15T09:24:14-05:00

Short answer: Hell No.

Response by TSgt Ralph Schloss made Nov 15 at 2019 4:47 PM

2019-11-15T16:47:03-05:00

You gotta be shitten me! What kind of dumbass would try that? I'd be laughing so hard in their face they wouldn't know whether to shit or go blind !!!!

Response by SGT Kenneth Partyka made Nov 15 at 2019 8:53 PM

2019-11-15T20:53:26-05:00

Thats funny!. I'd laugh hysterically if a civilian tried ANY corrective action on the lowliest Private. You want to have authority over a soldier? Sign that blank check like the soldier did.

Response by SGT Rachel H made Nov 15 at 2019 8:55 PM

2019-11-15T20:55:41-05:00

Here for the comments..

Response by SGT George Smith made Nov 15 at 2019 10:33 PM

2019-11-15T22:33:48-05:00

He has to be crazy. Hell NO? Respectfully, laughing.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Nov 16 at 2019 9:29 AM

2019-11-16T09:29:27-05:00

Legally I beleive he/she can if in the chain of command, but professionally that would be a no-go. 1st he/she needs to respect the Soldiers appointed position and treat them accordingly, if corrective action is needed it is behind closed doors and more of a discussion rather than physical training. Most GS Civilians I have ever meet couldn't do a push up correctly, do not expect me to do what you can't and don't be ignorant enough to try your power play just do an on the spot an be done with it. GS civilians need to take off there bars and chevrons off before they go to work. JMT

Response by 1SG Cal Brown made Nov 16 at 2019 2:50 PM

2019-11-16T14:50:38-05:00

As a Retired 1SG (25 years active army service, 2 Vietnam Service Tours & 6 1/2 years as a Drill Sgt), not only no, but Hell No. I always respected DA. Civilian Personnel, but they don't have that authority.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Nov 16 at 2019 10:08 PM

2019-11-16T22:08:40-05:00

NO! And I don’t think they would want to get physical about it either!

Response by PO1 Richard Norton made Nov 18 at 2019 2:27 PM

2019-11-18T14:27:21-05:00

Not only no, but hell no.

Response by 2LT Brad Klopp made Dec 8 at 2019 12:21 AM

2019-12-08T00:21:00-05:00

It’s not about legal or illegal it is simply inappropriate! A properly, experienced military person Should shut down any civilian ever attempting such a thing.

Response by Capt David Christiansen made Dec 12 at 2019 11:17 AM

2019-12-12T11:17:07-05:00

It depends on the positional authority of each of them. If the soldier is a student in training and the civilian is an instructor AND doing push ups is part of the discipline plan, then yes. Otherwise, it sounds like a good way to get in a fight!

Response by MAJ Craig Gilkison made Dec 12 at 2019 3:52 PM

2019-12-12T15:52:02-05:00

I totally agree with 1SG Burgess.

Response by CPT Keith Messinger made Dec 12 at 2019 4:48 PM

2019-12-12T16:48:04-05:00

Totally wrong, incorrect and bull shit.

Response by PO1 Thomas Hopkins made Dec 15 at 2019 8:14 AM

2019-12-15T08:14:29-05:00

No,he is not in the chain of command.

Response by SSG Jerry Pannell made Dec 15 at 2019 8:24 PM

2019-12-15T20:24:14-05:00

Not in any army that I knew of or for the matter at hand not any army

Response by MSG Allan Davis made Dec 15 at 2019 11:00 PM

2019-12-15T23:00:15-05:00

Just smile and shake your head while you walk away

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Dec 15 at 2019 11:38 PM

2019-12-15T23:38:29-05:00

No. They can not.

Response by SFC David Dean made Dec 16 at 2019 12:07 AM

2019-12-16T00:07:00-05:00

Quite simply the answer is no.

Response by GySgt Jerry Staton made Dec 16 at 2019 6:43 AM

2019-12-16T06:43:10-05:00

NO!

Response by MAJ Michael Cummings made Dec 16 at 2019 10:26 AM

2019-12-16T10:26:57-05:00

Ah HELL NO!

I'm a GS now and would never in a million years would have the stupidity to try something like that.

If I had ever had a GS try that when I was in uniform he would have had one hell of a bad day no matter what his GS level. If a DoD GS has an issue with a soldier then he needs to take it up with the chain of command to be addressed.

Response by SSG William Bruno made Dec 16 at 2019 3:05 PM

2019-12-16T15:05:38-05:00

Corrective training should always fit the issues. If the Soldiers didn't lock the door, corrective training should be related to the security of the facilities. Corrective training should never include physical training, because that turns PT into punishment, NOT conditioning. It should NEVER be administered by someone not subject to the same type of training.

Response by Col John "Coach" Allison made Dec 18 at 2019 10:48 AM

2019-12-18T10:48:49-05:00

WTF? Is it ethical or legal for anyone to "order" anyone else to do push ups for any reason outside of basic training? Grow up!

Response by SFC Terrence Griffin made Dec 19 at 2019 3:02 PM

2019-12-19T15:02:56-05:00

If you stupid enough to let a damn civilian make you do pushups you deserve to do every damn one...who made you do pushups bro..be honest,that question about you isnt it

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Dec 21 at 2019 4:50 PM

2019-12-21T16:50:01-05:00

They are not in Military the chain of command, So no F#*king way. Even is they are retired or former military.
To my knowledge only The Prez and secretaries of each has the authority. I am not completely sure on this one.

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made Dec 22 at 2019 10:22 AM

2019-12-22T10:22:59-05:00

Well, I'm not a Guard House Lawyer, but it seems to me that we are talking about two different horses here. One is military and the other is Civil Service. The only civilian that hold rank and power and is in fact a civilian is the CinC. When the President says drop, then you drop; all others can respectfully pack sand.

Response by SSG Tomas Gomez made Dec 22 at 2019 11:38 AM

2019-12-22T11:38:42-05:00

Is that really a question? No.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2019 8:25 AM

2019-12-23T08:25:41-05:00

Said civilian can kiss my ass (respectfully) and if said civilian has an issue where they feel corrective action is needed, they can come find me and tell my soldier is jacked up.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Jan 10 at 2020 12:14 PM

2020-01-10T12:14:50-05:00

A civilian should never tell a Soldier to drop or exercise that kind of authority over a Soldier. If a civilian has a problem with a Soldier then it bring it up to their supervisor, squad leader, or team leader.

Response by PFC Dale Mattison made Jan 14 at 2020 10:34 AM

2020-01-14T10:34:31-05:00

no it is not

Response by PO1 Mike Wallace made Jan 14 at 2020 3:59 PM

2020-01-14T15:59:20-05:00

I was a GS15 and dealt often with military personnel at bases within my airspace responsibilty area. It never EVER crossed my mind to do such a thing. But on many occasions I would contact them to correct problems that were occuring with their units in our airspace. On a number of those occasions both enlisted and officers demanded to know my grade before having these conversations. I did not like the idea of having to do that but at times it was the only way to get things done. Once I answered them they became quite cooperative.
My point is that there are those on the military side that force necessary confrontation that serve no purpose. Whether civilian or military there should be mutual respect. I am a Vietnam veteran also of several tours and see both sides. But collaboration produces much better outcomes than confrontation! Any GS employee who thinks they can order a service member to do pushups is an idiot, a fool, and an embarrasment and should learn that, before they rightfully get their ass kicked!!!

Response by SPC Bill Ratajczak made Jan 15 at 2020 9:06 AM

2020-01-15T09:06:58-05:00

I don't think so. Would laughed my ass off.

Response by Bruce French made Jan 15 at 2020 4:21 PM

2020-01-15T16:21:42-05:00

not impressed by what’s happening! is it all for one mans ego??

Response by MSG Jack Wengrosky made Jan 18 at 2020 1:59 PM

2020-01-18T13:59:31-05:00

You would refer your observations to his chain of command, of course. If I observed anyone giving a GS attitude during my non-retirement status, I would have taken the highest corrective action at my disposal, and privately notify the GS about their authority. Over and out.

Response by SPC Andrew Phillips made Jan 23 at 2020 7:23 AM

2020-01-23T07:23:47-05:00

I remember when I was in AIT, 15 years ago, there was a drill sergeant that would bring her toddler child around at certain times and she would allow the child to drop privates. I know that no one in the Army is going to stick up for a trainee, but a DS that does something like this needs to be hymned up. It’s just the principal of the thing. You’ve got them following orders from a 4 year old. It’s awful parenting for one, but it’s completely inappropriate. It’s a power trip for power sake, with zero training value. The DS can give out those same pushups and I have no issue.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2020 8:53 AM

2020-01-24T08:53:48-05:00

While I was still in closet I felt with was a civilian who had a made up title get mad at me for trying to fix my rateing chain to be the proper chain. All she did was threaten me a lot. The plus was this all came to head after the new DCA arrived and he saw how messed up it was. After that she got in my face a lot thinking she could do something. I was glad when I left for Korea. Down side is her being in my rateing chain for a year caused issues for promotion

Response by PO2 Tom Kalbacher made Jan 24 at 2020 10:09 AM

2020-01-24T10:09:20-05:00

That would take a lot of gall....

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Jan 24 at 2020 1:24 PM

2020-01-24T13:24:10-05:00

I would have laughed in his face telling me or one of mine to do pushups

Response by PO2 Marc Trail made Jan 26 at 2020 8:02 AM

2020-01-26T08:02:18-05:00

With all due respect, how is this even a question - I have obviously missed something. And while we are at it non-military spouses need a reality check also - your mates rank is not yours

Response by SSG Craig Collins made Jan 26 at 2020 8:08 PM

2020-01-26T20:08:06-05:00

Not happening.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2020 11:09 PM

2020-01-28T23:09:50-05:00

After reading through AR 600-20, I am not so sure anybody can really order anybody to do pushups. We do them during physical fitness training, but in reality, voluntary, as we must meet standards to remain in the Army.

Response by SGT Aaron Tollman made Jan 29 at 2020 11:24 AM

2020-01-29T11:24:19-05:00

Absolutely NO.

Response by SGT Miles McCord made Jan 30 at 2020 11:57 AM

2020-01-30T11:57:48-05:00

Not for a civilian, and not even for a Cadet.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Jan 30 at 2020 8:57 PM

2020-01-30T20:57:26-05:00

Again I will ask this question, if a person is dumb enough to do push ups from a civilian I would question if the ever attended basic!? Next time pay attention, or take notes idiot!

Response by PO1 Hector Maldonado made Jan 31 at 2020 6:49 AM

2020-01-31T06:49:35-05:00

This is what happens when you hire “Karen” as a GS, and tell her/him their authority will let them “speak to the manager” anytime they want.

Response by PO3 Richard Robie made Jan 31 at 2020 7:43 PM

2020-01-31T19:43:38-05:00

No.

Response by CPL Matthew Cervantes made Jan 31 at 2020 10:11 PM

2020-01-31T22:11:00-05:00

Their a civilian with no authority in military rank, as far as I know. So the proper response is to look at them and laugh.

Response by Maj Thor Hauff made Feb 1 at 2020 6:34 PM

2020-02-01T18:34:18-05:00

I think it depends on the context. If you are in a training situation and the drill says “any orders or commands coming from our GS or civilian instructors are as if the drill said them personally. They have and total authority in regards to rewards and/or corrective action”

Response by MAJ Tom Harper made Feb 2 at 2020 11:15 AM

2020-02-02T11:15:44-05:00

No!

Response by SPC Greg Campbell made Feb 2 at 2020 1:14 PM

2020-02-02T13:14:15-05:00

I have an appointment

Response by SSG Virginia Korcha made Feb 2 at 2020 1:31 PM

2020-02-02T13:31:25-05:00

I would have respectfully declined that GS request. Then laughed in his face right after I called his boss.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2020 11:58 PM

2020-02-02T23:58:45-05:00

No. There is a common misperception by many GARBAGE Government Service personnel, that they have some sort of General Military Authority.They do not. A GS may be your Rater or Senior Rater at some time, but they are never empowered to correctively train like that except in some special training environments, like maybe SERE....Report this toxic moron to their Supervisor or if that does not correct the behavior to the installation IG.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Feb 3 at 2020 11:54 AM

2020-02-03T11:54:30-05:00

I can't believe this is a serious question. Tell that dude to fuck off n grab a hose

Response by MSgt Frank Askins made Feb 4 at 2020 10:21 AM

2020-02-04T10:21:57-05:00

I retired from the Air Force as an E-7 and retired from Federal service as a GS-14. In my civilian role, I worked for military officers and had officers and enlisted work for me. There is a corresponding "rank" chart but it's more for protocol than anything else, in my opinion.

https://www.federalpay.org/articles/civilian-to-military-rank

I only had one problem and that was with an ate-up captain who thought her railroad tracks ruled over my "retired" stripes instead of my civilian pay grade. I never said anything but she screwed up by calling the civilian personnel office to see how she should handle my "insubordination". The incident was when she "dismissed" me and I laughed. After they explained the difference between military and civilian rules, she actually was surprised what she could and couldn't "force" me to do. She was just one of those 2d LT's who was a product of the Peter principle. As for the military folks who worked for me, I never exerted any authority that wasn't duty (job) related. Any discipline that was needed, and it was a very rare need, was handled through the military chain of command. As for a civilian telling a military person to do pushups, sounds like my captain now has a Federal job. I would recommend you talk to your military chain of command and have them address this with the civilian through their chain of command.

Civilian to Military Rank - FederalPay.org

Response by MGySgt Charles Restifo made Feb 7 at 2020 10:49 PM

2020-02-07T22:49:09-05:00

No it is not, a gs is a grade assigned to a civilian employee based on experance(well mostly) and a level of knowledge able to return to a service. While it is a "grade" it is "not" within the military structor. This individual needs to be reported to your chain of command.

Response by PO3 Carl Robinson made Feb 8 at 2020 3:24 PM

2020-02-08T15:24:49-05:00

Response by PO3 Carl Robinson made Feb 8 at 2020 3:26 PM

2020-02-08T15:26:24-05:00

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Feb 8 at 2020 5:07 PM

2020-02-08T17:07:01-05:00

Hell, I'd lose my friggin stripes before I'd let a civilian piece of shit tell me a GD thing, much less the Soldiers under me.

Response by GySgt Tim Taylor made Feb 8 at 2020 6:22 PM

2020-02-08T18:22:28-05:00

I know some who would have complied, and then go to sick bay complaining that they injured themselves during the "hazing event".

Response by CW4 William Kessinger made Feb 16 at 2020 10:52 PM

2020-02-16T22:52:33-05:00

No way in hell. They are not in his/her chain of command, and rightly so. The only civilian that has any say over military might be the Commander in Chief or the Secretary of the Army.
Must be that way.

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Feb 21 at 2020 3:36 PM

2020-02-21T15:36:30-05:00

No way no how.

Response by Sgt Robert Kemp made Feb 21 at 2020 6:30 PM

2020-02-21T18:30:58-05:00

No Friggin way would I allow a civilian to order me to do ANYTHING and especially something like pushups. Semper Fi

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2020 6:24 PM

2020-02-22T18:24:36-05:00

Fuck no, sir. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Response by LTC Ray Morris made Feb 23 at 2020 10:14 AM

2020-02-23T10:14:13-05:00

What has happened to my Army? In my day, this would have gotten a belly laugh, at best! Suffice to say, GS civilians do not now and have never, commanded US troops. Tell a civilian who demands you do pushups, to f**k off. Then report it to your commander so he can back you up!

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2020 10:37 AM

2020-02-23T10:37:45-05:00

Is this question trolling? Serious question really?

I'm a GS-13 but also a reserve NCO. Soldiers are out of my chain of command if I'm working with green suiters in my civilian role.

That being said, if you have some uppity GS13 try to do that to soldiers, you make sure to bring that up to their supervisor.

Response by Sgt Mark F Jindrick made Feb 23 at 2020 3:33 PM

2020-02-23T15:33:26-05:00

As a young E3 in the early 70's I had a gs14 go apeshit that I didn't call him sir o

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2020 8:45 PM

2020-02-23T20:45:03-05:00

never ever ever.

Response by SPC John A. made Feb 23 at 2020 10:37 PM

2020-02-23T22:37:18-05:00

It would take a supremely arrogant GS10-15 douchebag to demand push-ups of ANYONE - even a GS-02 civilian who works in the adjacent anonymous miserable cubicle or a JROTC high school cadet - let alone EXPECT that they comply. Because no: no Department of the Army civilian has any command authority over anyone actually WEARING the uniform. Or anyone at all. I don't care if you're the damned Secretary of Defense.

Response by CPT Endre Barath made Feb 23 at 2020 11:58 PM

2020-02-23T23:58:18-05:00

Seriously you have to ask this question? Maybe you need to revisit your training... or is this intended to generate a lot of comments? Just thinking out loud! we all know the answer Hell NO!!:)Endre

Response by SSG Tom Montgomery made Feb 24 at 2020 12:24 AM

2020-02-24T00:24:47-05:00

It may or may not be illegal but it is way beyond their authority. Had I ever had such an incident it would be escalated to the the highest level.

Response by 1SG Tommy Hackney made Feb 24 at 2020 6:15 AM

2020-02-24T06:15:26-05:00

Not just NO! but Hell NO!

Response by MAJ James Woods made Feb 24 at 2020 11:54 AM

2020-02-24T11:54:32-05:00

Answer: NO! Even if it was an SES that is equivalent to a General Officer I wouldn't expect a Soldier to drop.

Response by COL Michael McDougal made Feb 24 at 2020 2:06 PM

2020-02-24T14:06:50-05:00

Nothing legal about the action. As a retired COL I would not hesitate to correct said DA Civilian. This being said, you may very well have DA civilians who are in your chain of command. Unless things have changed in the last five years they have no authority under the UCMJ to render such action.

Response by PO1 George White made Feb 24 at 2020 9:37 PM

2020-02-24T21:37:40-05:00

Unfortunately it is true that the military is as political as a bureaucracy anywhere, and especially overseas at installations large enough to have housing and schools, one is wise to know whom you are talking to, dealing with, because I have personal experience in being burned because as coach of my division basketball team I verbally expressed my displeasure to the coach (civilian employee) of the Base High School team for walking out on a scheduled game against my team, after several of my team had made special arrangements to swap duty in order to play. I was dressed down by my CO who didn't give a flip about his men, but thought first of his relationship with the coach.

Politics are deadly in uniform or out.

Response by PO1 George White made Feb 24 at 2020 9:39 PM

2020-02-24T21:39:25-05:00

Is it legal? No. Would I tread carefully? Yes.

Response by PO1 Todd McMillin made Feb 25 at 2020 8:16 AM

2020-02-25T08:16:39-05:00

Simple answer NO! Unless there was a bet involved and they lost. Then they're required to pay the debt under the Article 134 of the UCMJ (Failure to pay Debt). While you can't really enforce the rule per say; it's still a bad sign of ethics for someone not to pay up on their wager and debt as such. Then you look like a liar and unprofessional.

The only other scenario I could see it happening in requesting or requiring a service member to do push up or other PT unless they're a physician or Fitness provider then the basic answer is ALWAYS a NO!.

Response by LTC Anthony Broussard made Feb 25 at 2020 9:01 AM

2020-02-25T09:01:19-05:00

When I was assigned to the On Site Inspection Agency (OSIA), a Secretary of Defense operation, I and a handful of LTCs were assigned to a Treaty Operation with a GS15 (retired O5) in charge. He reported to an 07/BG, the Agency Director. A GS15 for “rating purposes” is a 06/COL equivalent. So he could rate 05s and give us daily assignments. That is it. He couldn’t issue “orders,” only instructions. Now, it was clear that he was our rater, so you refused to follow his instructions at your peril. With the BG as our Senior Rater it was clear to all who was really in Charge and our Senior Commissioned Officer.

Response by SMSgt Robert Anderson made Feb 25 at 2020 3:40 PM

2020-02-25T15:40:47-05:00

I’m with you, they got the money we did the work!

Response by CPL Sarah Stilwell made Feb 25 at 2020 7:45 PM

2020-02-25T19:45:23-05:00

Hazing is against military law, this includes "dropping" a soldier once that soldier gas left the army training program (which is done by drill sergeants under strict conditions). If your not a DS and you drop a soldier, you can be punished for hazing.

Response by LTC David Howard made Feb 26 at 2020 8:51 AM

2020-02-26T08:51:46-05:00

This is one of the questions that makes me wonder what the hell has happened to the military in the almost 30 years since I retired. I would have done my best to see any civilian fired, or at least disciplined, who had the audacity to think that they could impose any disciplinary action upon any soldier. If a senior civilian thinks a soldier did not do something that they were supposed to do, or did something improper, the ONLY action acceptable is for them to refer the matter to the military chain of command.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2020 10:14 AM

2020-02-26T10:14:49-05:00

I don't care if its an SES prior service or POTUS himself. Corrective action and corrective training is the sole responsibility of the soldier's NCO.

Response by CW5 Chris Volkert (retired) made Feb 27 at 2020 10:55 AM

2020-02-27T10:55:13-05:00

Not just no, but hell no.
A GS has no such authority. Although, there are some who never realized their rank went away when they retired / ETSd.

Response by SGT Philip Keys made Feb 27 at 2020 1:10 PM

2020-02-27T13:10:23-05:00

I don't see any pushups from anyone unless you're doing PT. I think only grunts have people drop after they're permanent party. I had a buddy of mine try and drop me one time. Didn't work out the way he thought it was going to. I was one of the PT instructors so the next day during PT he got pay back. He out ranked me but he lost this battle.

Response by Sgt Robert Gardner made Feb 27 at 2020 5:47 PM

2020-02-27T17:47:31-05:00

Absolutely not. A civilian cannot demand that from a service member. Only a pompous ass would even true.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2020 8:06 PM

2020-02-27T20:06:23-05:00

Well civilians like the GS are not in the chain of command. So the answer should be no. Plus, making someone "Outside of boot camp" do physical exercise as a punishment could be argued as hazing under the ucmj. Worst case go to your supervisor and advise them of the situation and hell just contact JAG and see what they say too.

Response by SSG Rafael Rodriguez made Feb 28 at 2020 3:48 PM

2020-02-28T15:48:53-05:00

From my perspective, if that person is not wearing the same uniform or is in the same chain of command, no way in hell i would be doing push-ups for that person. For medical reasons an officer which is your doctor may want to see a physical condition status on your upper body or arms concern then it's a yes.

Response by Maj Michael Creel made Feb 29 at 2020 10:45 AM

2020-02-29T10:45:30-05:00

No, it’s never appropriate for a civilian to do that. Unfortunately, many civil servants believe their pay grade gives them “rank” and therefore authority. I’m retired Air Force with both enlisted and commissioned service, and I’m currently a Civil Servant. I think much confusion comes from the fact that civil servants are protected by the Geneva Convention. However, that protection is VERY limited and VERY specific. To paraphrase, it says if civilian employees are captured in times of a declared war, as prisoners of war, their treatment in captivity should be based on their civil service pay grade “equivalent to the closest military rank.” For example, a GS-15 POW should be treated similarly to an O-6. Members of the Senior Executive Service (SES) should be treated as flag officers (Generals and Admirals) would be treated. Again, it applies ONLY when they are prisoners of war. Over the years, though, Civil Servants have come to believe their pay grade is the same as military rank (ie, a GS15 is a Colonel, a GS14 is a LTC, etc). They are WRONG! They have a pay grade, they do not have rank. Ever! So, no, what that civilian did was absolutely wrong and he should have been reprimanded for it. I agree with the former 1st Sergeant who offered to put a boot up his arrogant ass.

Response by Barrett Borry made Feb 29 at 2020 2:12 PM

2020-02-29T14:12:14-05:00

Absolutely, positively not! I served as a draftee during the Viet Nam conflict, and later, 30+ years as a DOD Army civilian (DAC). There is no line of command from a DAC to a soldier. There were occasions when we had soliders detalied to support us. That did not give us the authority, or the right to discipline them. Had there been discipline issues (there never were) we could have gone directly to those soldiers' commander.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2020 11:12 PM

2020-02-29T23:12:30-05:00

I worked in a mixed mechanics shop like this and all the Civilians were allowed to do is tell u what jobs to work on or ASK u to help them or write u up they were not allowed to give any physical or verbal punishment. They had to go to the Officer, Warrant Officer or NCO in charge of u for that no exceptions.

Response by Brad Miller made Mar 7 at 2020 1:09 PM

2020-03-07T13:09:58-05:00

Chain of command -- civilian isn't in it (well, except like the top two or three slots, and I don't see POTUS or a Secretary saying "drop and gimme ...".

Response by GySgt Marc Dickerson made Mar 7 at 2020 4:27 PM

2020-03-07T16:27:57-05:00

I would look that civilian in the eye. And in a loud military manner, laugh as hard and long and loud as possible...right in his civilian face.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Mar 14 at 2020 11:41 PM

2020-03-14T23:41:06-04:00

Tell the GS Civilian to F-himself! Do invite them to conduct combatives training with you for PT one morning or afternoon - 3 minute session... if he wins, you do 10 pushups for him, if you win (and you will) then he owes you 10 pushups. Make sure you use headgear and gloves - weak civilian isn't used to getting smacked around! During that 3 minutes unleash hell on him so that he is afraid to even look at you again. That will remind him why there is a difference between Soldiers and civilians.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Mar 15 at 2020 10:03 AM

2020-03-15T10:03:41-04:00

Absolutely not! Could they make other civilian employees do push ups? If a Soldier supervises civilians he cannot discipline them as he does the soldiers he leads. Doubt if giving anyone push-ups as a disciplinary tool is such a great idea after initial training or specialized training as it could be construed as a lack of respect to those you. Lead, just sayin

Response by SGT Timothy McCann made Mar 16 at 2020 2:28 PM

2020-03-16T14:28:16-04:00

While in Fulda Germany i was reporting to the Regimental S2 office for something to do with getting secret clearance. I went to the S2's office and asked the civilian secretary seated there where i was supposed to go. She looks at me and tells me to "sound off like i had a pair" . So I did, loud enough in fact that the S2 came out of his office and asked what the hell was going on. I informed him that the sercretary was apparently unable to hear and repeated her request. This got smirk out of him and very red embarrased face out of her.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2020 3:04 PM

2020-03-22T15:04:42-04:00

The Words "Go pound sand" come to mind if a civillian told me that come to mind followed closely by alot of laughing at them. Just my reaction others may differ.

Response by CAPT Jim Coulson made Mar 22 at 2020 6:11 PM

2020-03-22T18:11:24-04:00

Not unless that GS-15 is the boss and he/she should use common sense in any guidance to active duty. "Demanding" push ups could be considered corporal punishment. Even as a CO, I would never have put someone at a front leaning rest except for the PRT.

I had a job as an NROTC Commanding Officer. I reported to a GS-15, but my FITREPT was signed by an 07. Naturally, if I'd have given her lip or said "no" when she asked for something I'd have heard from the Admiral. She was very intelligent and worked with us.

Response by CWO4 Tim Hecht made Mar 22 at 2020 9:40 PM

2020-03-22T21:40:22-04:00

When I was stationed in DC at Coast Guard Headquarters I was assigned to the Office of Personnel and Training. It was a two star RADM billet; with an O-6 Deputy of Personnel and an O-6 Deputy for Training. With the exception of the Civilian Personnel Division all Division Chiefs were O-6. The head of the Civilian Division was an SES (Senior Executive Service) Appointee. When the Admiral was “out of the office” leave, TDY, at a conference, etc. the SES was in charge. Rank wise he was equivalent to a Brigider General. Would Tom (as he told me to call him) ordered anyone to do push-ups? No; was he entitled to be saluted? No, nor would he demand anything of the kind.

Rest assured though everyone knew when he was the “Acting” head of the office and he was given the courtesy of the position - because he was respected. He did not demand anything.

Response by PO2 Joe W made Mar 23 at 2020 4:56 PM

2020-03-23T16:56:38-04:00

There is no circumstances that allow for any civilian in any capacity to dole out punishment or tell any enlisted/nco/officer what to do unless you work in the pentagon. DA civilians are just that and are there to assist the military personnel.

Response by Louis Williams made Mar 23 at 2020 4:58 PM

2020-03-23T16:58:32-04:00

Yes, in the context of The Army Civilian Corps and The Army Ethic, otherwise no! What goes on in the Army stays in the Army. Anyone interpreting military Officers disrespect their service and are a mockery to the uniform.

Response by MSgt James Slawson made Mar 23 at 2020 5:33 PM

2020-03-23T17:33:24-04:00

As a GS-15 civilian, retired Air Force Senior NCO, civilians have no place in the military chain of command. Only through their military co-workers, 1st Sergeant or the Chief, can they suggest a soldier be disciplined and by no way what type. I know we have had many Chief of Police, second to the commander, work for our Squadron but they always knew their place.

Response by SFC Ed Hansell made Mar 23 at 2020 9:35 PM

2020-03-23T21:35:39-04:00

Would have told any civilians who tried demanding me to do push ups to bite my ass

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Mar 23 at 2020 9:53 PM

2020-03-23T21:53:24-04:00

It is very illegal. A DOD Civilian employee has no disciplinary, or corrective action authority. They must report to the service member's supperiors for an infraction that may require disciplinary, or corrective action. Even DOD Civilian Supervisors don't have the authority to impose disciplinary, or corrective action on civilian employees that they are in charge of. Infractions must be reported up the Chain of Command, (Long Progress). Now a DOD Civilian does has the authority to charge a service member of a infraction under his/her watch if the service members superiorors is not available. He/She must contact the MP's to start the reporting process. I know because I been there and done it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2020 10:43 AM

2020-03-24T10:43:36-04:00

No way in heaven or hell would I ever let some civilian bark orders to do push-ups. I would rip that person apart.

Response by SPC Mark Kamyk made Mar 24 at 2020 1:37 PM

2020-03-24T13:37:46-04:00

It is not illegal it is just fucking stupid. On both sides!

Response by CPL James S. made Mar 24 at 2020 2:20 PM

2020-03-24T14:20:41-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member - I know I'm late to the game but I thought I would put my 2 cents in.

the short answer is - No. (see other answers for more detail). Typically the civilian would use the military chain of command for those types of corrective action unless there are special circumstances involved (like, say: the fire department).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2020 3:42 PM

2020-03-24T15:42:49-04:00

I worked as a mil tech and I would say no, they are not in your rating chain.

Response by CPO Rob Cummins made Mar 24 at 2020 6:19 PM

2020-03-24T18:19:53-04:00

It would be interesting to see them try.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Mar 24 at 2020 10:25 PM

2020-03-24T22:25:50-04:00

Training environment? Maybe. Not any of the ones I worked in. They would just hand you off to the nearest senior NCO, to deal with you. Hell, I got chewed at for doing some of the most basic disciplinary measure (i.e. putting a trainee in parade rest), an I was a SSG

Operational environment? I would take it up with your chain of command, as some serious B---S--- is going down. There should be an SOP explaining it somewhere. It would have should been part of your in=processing brief. I would drag said civilian to my nearest officer or senior NCO, to verify.

Response by Sgt Mark McCann made Mar 25 at 2020 10:15 AM

2020-03-25T10:15:33-04:00

Is it legal? I would think that it isn't in writing. But two things: Civilian GS managers do in fact supervise active duty, write fitreps, and vice versa. If there were a minor work infraction, the Civilian Manager has authority to use the same corrective discipline as a military boss. If it is a UCMJ issue, that would have to go back to the military chain adminstratively overseeing the Marine, like an H&S Co. Commander. Secondly, once, a long time ago on the Norfolk Navy Base I saw a civilian giving orders to Sailors in formation. Just so happened he was a retired Master Chief, retired into a GS job, but the base CO still let him discipline active sailors on punishment details. He stiil had some salt even after he retired.

But, in an operational combat environment, civilians have no authority.

Authority to make anyone do pushups? Outside of a schoolhouse... laughing my ass off.

Response by SSgt Christopher Meeks made Mar 25 at 2020 1:24 PM

2020-03-25T13:24:46-04:00

legally you can ask anyone to do anything..lawfully they can tell you to suck it

Response by SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET) made Mar 25 at 2020 6:07 PM

2020-03-25T18:07:45-04:00

Hell no. And any Soldier worth their salt would tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Response by SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET) made Mar 25 at 2020 6:10 PM

2020-03-25T18:10:25-04:00

Not only no but hell no. Any Soldier worth their salt would tell that civie to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Response by PO1 Howard Doll made Mar 26 at 2020 1:23 AM

2020-03-26T01:23:47-04:00

I ran into this situation at a training squadron. I was told to type a notice for flight operations by the civilian that worked in that division. I told him I was working on a project for the CO/XO (which needed signature ASAP). I told him to put it in my basket and would devote complete attention when the other project was completed. I did not have the personnel to take on the GS request at that moment. He tried to hand me the rough and said “do it or get someone here to do it now.” I sat back and kept my arms folded not doing anything.

He got my department head and told him I was disobeying an order. My dept head thundered, “He does not work for you! Go back to your hole in flight ops, and stay in your pay grade!” Wow the sparks flew there for a second.

Response by SPC Brian Cook made Mar 26 at 2020 1:28 AM

2020-03-26T01:28:49-04:00

I was just listening toa podcast by Dan Bongino today, he shared a story from his days as a secret service agent, on assignment in a foreign country, and a delta was coming in to have the president give him an award, one of the White House GS guy's said to him "you need to tell him to surrender his stick". After Dan stopped laughing he said you tell him. And the GS looked at the navy seal, and he said I'm not going stupid. You're the boss, if you think you can. So in essence "NO" with a funny story to boot.

Response by SGM Herman Whitley made Mar 26 at 2020 10:50 AM

2020-03-26T10:50:45-04:00

As a retired GS15 I would never have directed such action - I managed at one time 199 Soldiers and civilians and indirectly at least 50 contract employees.

Response by CPT Don Johnson made Mar 26 at 2020 7:49 PM

2020-03-26T19:49:40-04:00

NO. Any civilian (no matter their WG, GS or SES making such a request would (1) been told "NO and then (2) totally ignored...or maybe just made fun of for being an idiot! I am now a retired US Army Officer who also served as a US ARMY Warrant Officer and as an enlisted man at various times during my career. When I was a Warrant Officer AND when I was a Commissioned Officer, I'd have put my foot up the ass of any civilian that attempted to make that request of ANY of my soldiers!!

Response by SGT Ronnie Williams made Mar 26 at 2020 9:43 PM

2020-03-26T21:43:50-04:00

Im a DAC and not no but hell no

Response by CDR Tom Davy made Mar 27 at 2020 7:44 AM

2020-03-27T07:44:42-04:00

NO. Even a GS-14/15 who will have positional authority over most military they work with, they do not have the authority to order push-up or other silliness. I have worked with senior civilians in many places and have never seen or heard of this as an issue. Has anyone ever heard of this actually happening?

Response by MSG Jim Martin made Mar 28 at 2020 7:15 AM

2020-03-28T07:15:57-04:00

Oh hell no

Response by PO1 Tom Follis made Mar 28 at 2020 8:37 PM

2020-03-28T20:37:03-04:00

Not no but, HELL NO.

Response by 1SG Donald Elmore made Mar 29 at 2020 11:27 AM

2020-03-29T11:27:03-04:00

Under no circumstances is it legal or right for a GS to tell any soldier to do anything outside his assigned duties with that GS. I would have some good words to say to that GS.

Response by Maj Scott Kiger, M.A.S. made Mar 29 at 2020 4:07 PM

2020-03-29T16:07:45-04:00

There is no legal or illegal law regarding this but if a soldier drops and does push-ups or a civilian they are an idiot. Unless of course it was a friend and it was done in jest. No civilian Azurite to command a soldier or any military member to do anything unless they are breaking the law and that civilian is a policeman or member of Law enforcement. Before it's brought up don't mention the president because he is not a civilian he is the Commander in Chief.

Response by MAJ Dean Thompson made Mar 29 at 2020 9:19 PM

2020-03-29T21:19:20-04:00

If a GS tried to give corrective action to one of my soldiers, I would have attended his funeral just to tell his widow what a POS he was!

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Mar 29 at 2020 10:30 PM

2020-03-29T22:30:58-04:00

no.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Mar 29 at 2020 10:33 PM

2020-03-29T22:33:05-04:00

No.

Response by Amn Joseph H. made Mar 30 at 2020 12:15 AM

2020-03-30T00:15:58-04:00

The idea a civilian would think he had authority over a member of our military has no up side. For political officers I could see it:) But enlisted, sargents never. To suggest patronizing these visitors just encourages more wrong thinking by our military and civilians.

Response by SGT Robert Eddy made Mar 30 at 2020 1:10 AM

2020-03-30T01:10:31-04:00

I've no JAG experience, but I would absolutely not allow that. If my superiors had overridden me, I would have respectfully objected. But I don't believe any of them would allow that.

Response by SGT David D. made Mar 30 at 2020 11:46 AM

2020-03-30T11:46:18-04:00

Okay, I have a question:
What would be a leaders responsibilities, if one of His/Her subordinates are faced with a civilian thinking they can issue corrective action to service Member? And how would that leader do educate both the civian, and the service member (assuming the service members actions warrant corrective action).
My answer would be to pull the civian aside and have a sternly worded, onesided conversation, about this individual staying in their lane. If they have an issue the proper course of action would be to report observations and complaints to the individuals direct superior. And leave the corrective action to the the people that actually have the authority.
Just my two cents.

Response by PO2 Ed Taylor made Mar 30 at 2020 7:46 PM

2020-03-30T19:46:26-04:00

Absolutely not. Civilians when working with and for the military are only in a consulting or an assisting position irregardless of official civilian rank. GS whatever should be giving the respect of their position and acknowledgement of the reason they are there but they have no military authority over the troops. Civilian instructors are just that ( instructors ) and there is always a Senior NCO/ Petty Oficer in charge of the military aspect of the training.SGT / PO2 Ed Taylor Training NCO. been there done that bought the T Shirt

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Mar 31 at 2020 10:31 PM

2020-03-31T22:31:46-04:00

A GS, or any other DoD civilian Cannot take any corrective action against a soldier. Any soldier who is an E-3 or higher, who follows a civilians directive to perform such actions need to have a boot up their butts as well. The only time is if you had a bet with that civilian for pushups and you lost that bet. The flipping clowns that used to (and still may) work at some of the logistics centers used to act bad ass. I laughed at them and told them to push on. I had a 90 MM round blow off in a tube of a recoilless rifle. I squeezed the trigger, it wouldn't budge. Raised my hand for misfire, range NCO's came over. I couldn't put the weapon on safe, nor could the NCOs. The breach wouldn't open. My squad leader took a rock, hit the breach release and the round blew, and blew my squad leader's hand off, there was nothing there but skeleton. One week later, I had to go out on the range with all of the rounds from the same batch as that round. I was 19, and I had to shoot 34 rounds. While shooting the rounds, the A-hole civilian was telling me about how he was working at Ft. Carson and a round blew in the chamber and he saw the soldier's shoulders blow right off. I fired about half the rounds, he told other stories, and then after that story I told him to fk himself, he's shooting the rest of the rounds. I laid the weapon down and walked off the range. I had asked him to shut up as I was already screwed after seeing my squad leaders hand blown off, and I was using the same weapon with the same batch of ammo. Just about every logistics center employee was a prick. He ended up shooting the rest of the rounds - without incident.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Apr 2 at 2020 9:33 AM

2020-04-02T09:33:13-04:00

What is the job of the Civilian? Should it be a physical conditioning instructor or for an evaluation, "YES"; otherwise "NO".

Response by 1SG Raymond Benning made Apr 7 at 2020 11:20 AM

2020-04-07T11:20:28-04:00

Uhhh yes. Absolute nonsense. I have never heard of any DA civilian trying this type of horse shit. They may have been a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine but aren’t anymore. Report it immediately!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2020 9:51 PM

2020-04-09T21:51:53-04:00

Hell to the no! Even if the civilian is a direct supervisor, the civilian has other administrative ways to discipline a soldier. Either a bad evaluation or a counseling statement should suffice. To ask a subordinate soldier (regardless of his/her rank) to do pushups is outside of the scope of responsibility of the civilian supervisor. Even myself as a senior GS official (who happens to be a retired Colonel) would not ask a soldier to do pushups. If the soldier was insubordinate, I could do wonderful things at the stroke of a pen, followed by a call to the OIC/NCOIC for my area and the company 1SG.

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Apr 12 at 2020 10:34 PM

2020-04-12T22:34:55-04:00

I would have no intentions of doing any pushing for a civilian. Even if he/ she states they are a soldier and not in uniform. According to a jag officer I talked to about a similar situation as this one. The LTC informed me civilians have no authority over you. Now if their on orders per your commander. Than that is a different story. Then your both in uniform.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Apr 13 at 2020 10:10 AM

2020-04-13T10:10:27-04:00

I was hoping this was an April Fool's joke. Oh hell no; and you would regret trying it on anyone around me

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Apr 13 at 2020 12:02 PM

2020-04-13T12:02:29-04:00

I'm not accustomed to using colorful language in a public forum---but in this case, I think Fuck you would be appropriate.

Response by SP5 John Fitzgerald made Apr 13 at 2020 2:17 PM

2020-04-13T14:17:37-04:00

Absolutely not! The very notion is disgusting and such an action would deserve a good ass kicking on said civilian.

Response by SSgt Michael Bowen made Apr 15 at 2020 7:07 PM

2020-04-15T19:07:49-04:00

The short answer is NO . The long answer is Hell NO !

Response by SPC Paul Hayward made Apr 20 at 2020 5:59 PM

2020-04-20T17:59:50-04:00

civilians are not in his chain of command, and cannot hand down corrective punishment

Response by SgtMaj Phillip Orellano made Apr 21 at 2020 9:23 AM

2020-04-21T09:23:00-04:00

Not in this lifetime or the next. I had civilian leadership on Embassy duty and no way they would have thought to order me or my Marines to conduct any physical training.

Response by PO2 John Driskill made Apr 22 at 2020 12:32 PM

2020-04-22T12:32:03-04:00

The arrogance of a civilian expecting any service member to obey them is laughable. Stick your order where the sun don't shine.

Response by MSgt Dale Johnson made Apr 23 at 2020 7:43 AM

2020-04-23T07:43:27-04:00

In a word, NO.

Response by LCDR Jerry Maurer made Apr 23 at 2020 11:04 AM

2020-04-23T11:04:30-04:00

A GS has an equivalent military rank, for BERTHING privileges. Having been in the military, officer and enlisted, and a GS-13, I know there is no place for a civilian to impose any type of discipline to military personnel. In fact, if you’re outside the chain of command, you should be very careful when disciplining junior personnel. I do remember a sergeant putting me at attention and chewing my butt for sitting and doing nothing (I was an battalion operations clerk at the time). That lasted about 10 seconds as my boss, an 0-2 was sitting next to me. That sergeant REALLY got his butt chewed for not understanding the situation.

Response by SSgt Grover Nunnery made Apr 24 at 2020 5:00 PM

2020-04-24T17:00:33-04:00

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Good one!

Response by SGT Perry Shields made Apr 24 at 2020 8:45 PM

2020-04-24T20:45:13-04:00

When I was in and an NCO, civilians didn't dare tell my troops to do anything. They took their orders from myself, the first Sargent, XO or CO. Definitely never a civilian.

Response by PO2 Richard Braud made Apr 25 at 2020 8:41 PM

2020-04-25T20:41:49-04:00

No. I am ex military and have worked as a civilian contractor. The only requirement deals with how you are treated regarding berthing meals etc.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2020 8:35 AM

2020-04-26T08:35:44-04:00

No I do not in the least bit think they have this authority, If there is diciplainary action that needs to be taken then this GS Civilian would need to take hi.her complaint to the soldiers MILITARY chain of command. As a 1Sg this would not be would not tolerated.

Response by MSgt Jesse Tiede made Apr 26 at 2020 10:51 PM

2020-04-26T22:51:01-04:00

No, it is NOT! As a retired GS-09, I can unequivocally say,"NO!" They can take administrative Action against a military member, if appropriate, but even then, they still have to go thru a military commander. Tell them to go... do their own push ups...

Response by 1SG Jason Almond made Apr 27 at 2020 12:54 AM

2020-04-27T00:54:04-04:00

Let’s go with no all the way around.

Response by SPC Sean Kennedy made Apr 27 at 2020 10:06 AM

2020-04-27T10:06:27-04:00

Legal? I highly doubt it, as an Army Civilian myself I would never tell anyone to do push-ups

I joke with people coming through the gate that forget their ID card that there’s a 10 push-up penalty for forgetting their ID but it’s totally kidding and I laugh with them so they don’t think I’m serious

Response by SFC Dean D. made Apr 27 at 2020 10:07 AM

2020-04-27T10:07:26-04:00

Civilians have no general military authority.

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Apr 27 at 2020 11:05 AM

2020-04-27T11:05:23-04:00

Thank you, CPT. My size fourteen shoes are available to be placed in the proper orifice.

Response by 1SG Edward Cullen made Apr 27 at 2020 2:59 PM

2020-04-27T14:59:44-04:00

Ha, Surely you jest! I have had civilians in my career,(One may be reading this now.) Leave Friday as a Active Soldier and return Monday as a civilian and expect to have the same authority. I would tell them in a heart beat," You are a civilian now!' I worked with retirees that were great and knew where their lane was and where the exit ramp was. The answer to your question no.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2020 5:10 PM

2020-04-27T17:10:04-04:00

When I was active duty I worked with retired COL and CSM who would call LTs "Sir" and E-5 SGT "Sergeant". Plus they also knew if they witnessed a behavior that needed correction, they knew it would be more effective if they just called the soldiers commander of senior NCO. When I was a CW3, I took an aircraft transition course taught by the manufacturer. The civilian test pilots who taught the hands on flying portion we retired USN and USAF Colonels and retired US Army CW5s. They all called me "Sir" when we flew, even if I asked them not to, talk about strange. Civilians are a vital and necessary part of the military, but in the big picture, they are hired help. They have no rank. However the do deserve respect, but I feel everyone does.

Response by SFC David S made Apr 27 at 2020 9:22 PM

2020-04-27T21:22:12-04:00

I have been out for a while but all the civilians I worked with where there to comply with my units requirements, not the other way around. And if they aren't in your rating chain tell em to get bent...in my opinion. as for the regulations/legal aspect, look it up in the UCMJ...

personally I would push if they pushed too...HUYA

Response by Michael Davis made Apr 28 at 2020 10:53 AM

2020-04-28T10:53:39-04:00

No.

Response by MSgt Willie Stovall made Apr 28 at 2020 11:34 AM

2020-04-28T11:34:29-04:00

The first word out out of my mouth would have been "Kiss", followed by what ever you wish to insert That is not his place.

Response by COL Vincent Contreras made Apr 28 at 2020 12:22 PM

2020-04-28T12:22:20-04:00

A high ranking GS civilian has an equivalent military rank. So IF the GS is high enough rank AND he is in the direct chain of command of the soldier, technically he/she could correct a soldier under their supervision. However, normally there are military in the same chain of command and a good/smart GS will use military personnel in the same chain of command to deal with a soldier rather than confronting them personally.

Response by SGT Thomas LaRochelle made Apr 29 at 2020 10:25 PM

2020-04-29T22:25:32-04:00

Not no, but HELL NO!!!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2020 8:08 AM

2020-04-30T08:08:37-04:00

No. They’re civilians.

Response by Sgt Stonewall Jackson III made Apr 30 at 2020 9:02 PM

2020-04-30T21:02:22-04:00

The only 'civilian' who can give a soldier orders is the President.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2020 3:17 PM

2020-05-02T15:17:07-04:00

I mean it could be possible, as a SGT I told a douchey civi retired CSM he don’t make the guidelines and told him to do as I say. His head exploded

Response by GySgt John Hudson made May 3 at 2020 8:08 PM

2020-05-03T20:08:41-04:00

When I worked at NSACSS, I ran into a couple of GS 15/17's who thought they were godlike. They had never been overseas in a military situation or in a hot combat zone. One tried to get me to do pushups and I inquired as to why? The answer did not even come close to qualifying the "request". GS is (Government Service/General Service), not O or E as in the military. Two totally different realms of Federal service. I just laughed at the one and stated that if she would strap on a 90 lb pack, run the beach in combat boots, and go through an infiltration course! I might consider her request if I was drunk. A request like that is simply a play for power. Nothing else. The Generals and Colonels I knew would not even order that unless they did them with me. However, that being said, if the GS is in charge of the office where you work. Life in the work place could get complicated come eval report time.. JP

Response by SSG David Angell made May 10 at 2020 7:42 AM

2020-05-10T07:42:58-04:00

I will start off with the question you asked. A civilian CANNOT ORDER a soldier to do pushups or any other kind of punishment. A civilian is not in the Soldiers chain of command. If the civilian has a problem with your work, then he needs to report you to your military supervisor.
I some what had that problem when in Bosnia, 2002. As I was an E-6 in charge of some soldiers helping out Civilian contractors, who were manning entry/exit point for civilian Bosnian workers.
He kept by-passing a woman worker who was waiting to get her ID back.
I waited for about 5 mins watching this idiot, who I later found out was a retired 1SG. The Irony of it all. Anyway, I finally had enough and proceeded to pick up the ID and give it to the worker.
This pissed the contractor off and he went off on me. When I told him what he had done, he became madder.(Guess he didn't like being challenged).He told me he was going to report me to the O-5 in charge of the operation.
After, my shft was over, I proceeded to the 0-5 office and told him what happened.
I found out later that the contractor went to the 0-5 and told he tale. The last I heard was that he got his ass reamed. The next day, I didn't see him around.
No more problems.

Response by SSG Mark Menzies made May 11 at 2020 12:50 PM

2020-05-11T12:50:48-04:00

If it is legal,, it should not be, that is the job of that soldiers NCO. The way I look at it is I've done my time and iam no longer in uniform. It is somebody else's job not mine. If there is an issue then you go to that soldiers chin of command if the situation is that bad and warrants it.

Response by SSG Mark Menzies made May 11 at 2020 12:57 PM

2020-05-11T12:57:05-04:00

First thing those civilian GS workers who just transitioned need to let it go!! If you can not you need to get a life...i mean realy!!

Response by Cpl Ernest Thomas made May 29 at 2020 7:42 AM

2020-05-29T07:42:22-04:00

Easy answer, THROAT PUNCH t h en continue with your day.

Response by SGT Lenise Hamilton made Jun 4 at 2020 2:55 PM

2020-06-04T14:55:11-04:00

This gester/idea sounds like an abuse of power to include, a total psychotic individual that has nothing better to do with his/her time. It sounds like whom-ever there rater is should reconsider revisiting this individual's title, as well as, his job position. This is definitely not where the tax payer's funding should be going too. There's already enough idiots drawing Gov't paychecks that's totally un-qualified to do so. Whom-ever this "Butt-Head" is, needs to be on the soup-line, so they can come back down to reality. Hopefully the above mentioned, will be considered.

Response by Sgt Matthew Keller made Jun 19 at 2020 3:20 PM

2020-06-19T15:20:06-04:00

Response by SPC Nazareth Berlanga made Jun 24 at 2020 9:24 AM

2020-06-24T09:24:07-04:00

Hell no!

Response by SSG Sidney Galloway made Jul 6 at 2020 6:21 AM

2020-07-06T06:21:27-04:00

Interesting question, with a simple enough response: Look at the GS's job description. If "corrective action" isn't in the job description, tell the civilian to take disciplinary issues to your NCOs. It's what WE are paid to do.

Response by PO3 Alan Combs made Jul 9 at 2020 3:09 PM

2020-07-09T15:09:19-04:00

Absolutely not, civilians should have no control of troops and no officers should take orders from any civilian at a GS rank.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jul 14 at 2020 11:27 AM

2020-07-14T11:27:39-04:00

Response by CPL Jarod Depastene made Jul 22 at 2020 1:10 PM

2020-07-22T13:10:08-04:00

Holy crap. Not only is it not legal, but you are WELL within your rights to tell that DA Civ to sit on it and spin.

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Jul 30 at 2020 3:32 PM

2020-07-30T15:32:50-04:00

I had a lot of civilian gs personnel who demand it. We informed them that when their in uniform and on orders. We will comply. We even verified it through the jag office.

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Aug 1 at 2020 3:59 PM

2020-08-01T15:59:42-04:00

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard a civilian say "I'm an O-4 equivalent" or "an E-9 equivalent" followed by the words "you're required to obey me"........

Response by Brad Miller made Aug 3 at 2020 4:56 PM

2020-08-03T16:56:19-04:00

Ummm ... isn't this a case of truly Olympic level hubris? The civilian is NOT in the chain of command!

Response by CDR Tom Davy made Aug 4 at 2020 6:10 PM

2020-08-04T18:10:17-04:00

NO. If a GS-15 has a problem with an NCO, he should go to the NCO's chain-of-command and report the issue.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Aug 4 at 2020 6:39 PM

2020-08-04T18:39:47-04:00

Hell, no!! I was a DAC GS-12/13 for 26 years and supervised soldiers for 16 of those. I also had eleven years of active commissioned service prior to that.
Other than supervising the job requirements, DAC's have no authority to direct soldiers in the manner mentioned in this post.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Aug 5 at 2020 8:20 AM

2020-08-05T08:20:32-04:00

A GS may have authority within an administrative process, but has no military standing. The only time I've seen their equivalency to military grades come into play is on temp duty away from their workplace and they are allowed to stay in officers' quarters instead of enlisted transient quarters.

Response by MSgt Roger Bon made Aug 21 at 2020 11:26 PM

2020-08-21T23:26:09-04:00

A civilian my possess a Guard or Reserve military rank or may have direst authority over soldiers in the performance of a military organization. I have been supervised by a WS-9 that had the military rank in the Reserves as an E-8.

Response by HN Rick Strul made Aug 25 at 2020 7:24 AM

2020-08-25T07:24:54-04:00

No. They are bureaucrats, not chain of command.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Aug 26 at 2020 8:29 AM

2020-08-26T08:29:39-04:00

Do pushups for a civilian? That is UNPOSSIBLE.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2020 2:47 PM

2020-08-26T14:47:46-04:00

We had a retired 1SG who was at the time a GS13. Once in a while he would come into our facility to do maintenance with his guys. He tried pulling this shit with a couple of the young Joe’s. That is until we caught wind and put him in his place respectively. Wasn’t an issue ever again.

Response by MSG Allan Davis made Aug 27 at 2020 5:27 PM

2020-08-27T17:27:35-04:00

What I really find comical about this is that you would think anyone is dropping a senior NCO.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Aug 27 at 2020 5:37 PM

2020-08-27T17:37:33-04:00

Absolutely not!!!

Response by SSG Watis Ekthuvapranee made Aug 28 at 2020 11:40 AM

2020-08-28T11:40:00-04:00

DOD Personnel do not have the authority to dog out any Soldiers. They should not even be in a direct chain of command. Usually, that is passed on to the most senior NCO and his/her direct chain of command. Another word, "Sh*t rolls down hill." The DOD personnel can only order tasks through his/her senior NCO. If your NCO doesn't tell that DOD person to "F*** off or none of your chain of command will protect you, call IG.

My believe is that if you are going to dog me, you'd better be out perform me in the area that you are dogging me with or face the bullets with me. Otherwise, ....

Response by SP6 Greg Jetter made Aug 28 at 2020 2:35 PM

2020-08-28T14:35:37-04:00

Whats the rest of the story , what happened after the NCO's or Jr Officers stopped laughing ? Did they make the GS-10 Cry ?

Response by Maj Ted Mc Neel Sr. made Aug 28 at 2020 3:10 PM

2020-08-28T15:10:39-04:00

No GS rated DoD civilian would ever order my Marines to do anything.

Response by Maj Ted Mc Neel Sr. made Aug 28 at 2020 3:12 PM

2020-08-28T15:12:26-04:00

No GS DoD civilian would ever order my Marines to do anything!

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Aug 28 at 2020 4:50 PM

2020-08-28T16:50:39-04:00

Hell no I am a retired SFC and a GS11 that does not give me the power to drop and soldier

Response by SFC Oddie Brown made Aug 28 at 2020 6:21 PM

2020-08-28T18:21:48-04:00

Drop for a civilian? NO. If he has a high ranking or status I won't disrespect him/her but I would tell them if they have a problem with me they need to go to my 1SG. Even civilians have a bad day and can make mistakes. Maybe later I would let them buy me a cup of coffee.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2020 7:40 PM

2020-08-28T19:40:38-04:00

I believe I would have to instructed said individual in the art of “effing himself”. Of course this would have been in private and conducted as professionally as possible.

Response by CPL Michael Moore made Aug 28 at 2020 8:24 PM

2020-08-28T20:24:47-04:00

Prior service Gs14. It’s hard to see inappropriate behavior or other violations but I am not a commissioned officer. The absolute worse case scenario is it gave me such a case of the ass I spoke to a officer or senior NCO to correct the individual. I just never bothered not my circus not my monkeys. The GS system simply allows you to interact with Field grade officers it does not impart the privilege of leading or commanding military forces.

Response by Neal Chamberlain made Aug 29 at 2020 8:43 AM

2020-08-29T08:43:13-04:00

I have pursued a 66-year career as a civilian, and the absurdity of this entire thought stretches my imagination. Uniformed service and civilian life are two different worlds and the authority structure would only have the most coincidental overlap. In my world, the most appropriate conversation I could have with a service member (especially in uniform) is tp ask what they are drinking and if they are ready for a refill.

Response by Sgt Jim Mullins made Aug 29 at 2020 11:25 AM

2020-08-29T11:25:30-04:00

Hell no!!!

Response by LT John McCormick made Aug 29 at 2020 1:55 PM

2020-08-29T13:55:35-04:00

Prior 10 yr enlisted and Retired officer... now a GS... I would love to sort out that cluster’s misconception or retired rank carried forward fallacy...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2020 6:42 PM

2020-08-29T18:42:16-04:00

Let's put it this way:
Even when a technician, who is a GS employee, is IN UNIFORM, it is specifically prohibited for ANYONE to do this, lol!

Response by CPT William Jones made Aug 29 at 2020 7:33 PM

2020-08-29T19:33:38-04:00

In actually even a service member cannot administer punishment outside their chain of command. You may issue orders if you have business with a junior but if he fails to follow you must report it to their Chain of command for any action and in reality they decide what action to take

Response by Ron Ayotte made Aug 30 at 2020 7:10 PM

2020-08-30T19:10:40-04:00

No, no, hell no!

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2020 7:21 PM

2020-08-30T19:21:24-04:00

As a Civilian I stay out of Soldiers business...plenty of trained and schooled NCOs and Officers to take care of stuff like this.

Response by CPT Tom Obrien made Aug 30 at 2020 9:00 PM

2020-08-30T21:00:36-04:00

Any civilian that would even attempt to give an order like that should be run out of his job although we all know it's almost impossible to fire a civilian or even have one disciplined

Response by SGT George Gallant made Aug 30 at 2020 10:27 PM

2020-08-30T22:27:36-04:00

The only civilians I would take orders from would be the Secretary of the Army and the President.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Aug 31 at 2020 10:52 AM

2020-08-31T10:52:21-04:00

Not only no but he'll no!

Response by SSG David Blees made Aug 31 at 2020 2:43 PM

2020-08-31T14:43:52-04:00

That's funny and I would tell him to kiss my grits.

Response by Amn Joseph H. made Aug 31 at 2020 11:00 PM

2020-08-31T23:00:28-04:00

There are no legal conditions a civilian enters into UMCJ military law that would allow such a thing. There is a very distinct line drawn between civilian and military. There worlds and only touch at say the generals level with bureaucrats and presidential appointees. Anything else would be improper
and in this case insulting, would not have even paid attention.

Response by CPL Robert Echola made Sep 1 at 2020 11:34 AM

2020-09-01T11:34:50-04:00

The last time I looked, civilians were NOT IN MY CHAIN OF COMMAND or allowed to give orders to ANYONE.

Response by 1LT Voyle Smith made Sep 1 at 2020 2:04 PM

2020-09-01T14:04:13-04:00

No.

Response by 1stSgt Edward Jackson made Sep 6 at 2020 7:34 PM

2020-09-06T19:34:51-04:00

Military civilian employees are not part of the Chain Of Command, they cannot issue orders to individual Soldiers. They cannot meter out discipline. They can file a complaint with Military Commanders, but that is all they can legally do.

Response by CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2020 10:29 PM

2020-09-13T22:29:41-04:00

I once had a civilian “big boss” try and throw his weight around with me. I told him I wasn’t gonna play his game and need to see a green suiter who actually has authority and can show me the regulation. Sure enough he got the SFC in charge of the office and we straightened everything out real quick.

Response by SPC John Richardson made Sep 19 at 2020 10:18 AM

2020-09-19T10:18:31-04:00

If a GS Civilian wants to use that type of corrective action on a military member then maybe that GS Civilian should enlist in the military or if he's former military reenlist. Sure those pay grades might equal whatever military rank but they do NOT equal the same as a military person of equivalent rank to the GS civilian especially considering the GS Civilian is not responsible for leading military personal. I agree with 1SG Brugess as far as the separation of civilian and military personnel

Response by SFC Charles Dennis made Sep 22 at 2020 7:31 AM

2020-09-22T07:31:16-04:00

No, they are NOT in the Army and do NOT have general military authority. The only exception might be if they are some how in a Command position, which, I do not know how that would be possible. An instructor at a school is not a command position.

Response by PO2 Michael Slachta made Sep 23 at 2020 6:21 PM

2020-09-23T18:21:48-04:00

You have got to be kidding. Please tell me the solder told the civilian where to go in no uncertain terms. Of course its not a lawful order, discipline is a military matter.

Response by SPC Anitra Bailey-Bearfield made Sep 25 at 2020 1:36 PM

2020-09-25T13:36:14-04:00

No they are civilian therefore not in your chain of command, the only one in your chain of command that is a civilian is the president of the United States but other than that no. My platoon leader was a SFC and he had an issue with civilians, even his family so his answer to that question would be hell no.

Response by SGT Dorian Wolfe made Sep 25 at 2020 5:54 PM

2020-09-25T17:54:41-04:00

I was an MP SGT and a DOD civilian and I would have shoved my foot the civilians butt too!

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2020 4:21 PM

2020-09-26T16:21:58-04:00

It depends if they are civilian contractor training instructor in that case I would say so if your on temsis status I can’t remember how to spell that but then I would have said aye sir or Mam and do it because they are your instructor . I was Marines so I never had a contractor instructor though .

Response by SGT Kenneth Stelly made Sep 27 at 2020 1:00 AM

2020-09-27T01:00:49-04:00

Are you running out of questions to ask? I'm not even going to answer that question.

Response by SSgt Michael Bowen made Sep 27 at 2020 12:03 PM

2020-09-27T12:03:54-04:00

If a GS tried to make me do pushups or anything else i would be on the ground but it would be from laughing so hard .

Response by CW4 William Kessinger made Sep 27 at 2020 6:17 PM

2020-09-27T18:17:01-04:00

Tell your troops to tell him to go piss up a rope.. he’s not in his command structure..

Response by 1SG Donald Elmore made Sep 27 at 2020 7:27 PM

2020-09-27T19:27:33-04:00

Absolutely not. A GS employee has absolutely no authority over a soldier. He does in fact have some authority to tell a soldier of any rank what to do in performance of their job if he has been appointed over them. I did 3 months of work under a GS civilian in 1963. I did as I was told as it pertained to my job only.

Response by SSgt Robert Van Buhler III made Sep 27 at 2020 8:26 PM

2020-09-27T20:26:26-04:00

I would say only if the civilian was a contractor training special forces or equivalent, and he was hired for past service and it was in the midst of training. Otherwise K-M-A

Response by GySgt John Hudson made Sep 27 at 2020 8:43 PM

2020-09-27T20:43:03-04:00

I have seen this question before... The answer is No! Only the civilian POTUS/Commander in Chief has that authority. JP

Response by SGM Marie Carmelle Lerouge made Sep 28 at 2020 9:17 AM

2020-09-28T09:17:36-04:00

Just not NO but HELL NO unless there is a new Regulation since I retired in 1977. By the way, there was a mention of a 100% disabled veteran being refused care at the Va hospital. That’s another NO. However, someone advised to go to the President for assistance. Again another NO. As a Veteran, you call the VA Regional Office VSN in your area for assistance.

Response by Col Richard Roessler made Sep 28 at 2020 7:28 PM

2020-09-28T19:28:13-04:00

Absolutely! Just before I retired a GS-5 dropped me for 50. Then three Captains walked up and made me do 150 more. I was only an O-6 and since three O-3s = one O-9, I knew I better drop as quickly as I could. Though I think I looked around see if I could find a O-4 to counter the three Captains’ order (the Major and I would have made an O-10), but I’m pretty sure any Major in his right mind would have laughed as hard as I am...

Response by COL Frank Siltman made Oct 5 at 2020 7:57 AM

2020-10-05T07:57:28-04:00

I’m a retired senior officer who is a GS14. Absolutely ridiculous, not in any way is that right. If a soldier is a problem to that extent a GS talks to the military chain of command to deal with something of that nature, period. I supervise military and we rate military, verbally and written counseling for performance, that’s it, period.

Response by SPC Chris Aliviado made Oct 5 at 2020 12:21 PM

2020-10-05T12:21:18-04:00

I would say hell no and I wouldn't do it. Tell them to take it up with the Commander

Response by PO2 Dennis Beeh made Oct 5 at 2020 4:50 PM

2020-10-05T16:50:11-04:00

If a GS10 - GS15 ever did that I would ask how the hell did they survive long enough to attain GS10 - GS15?

Response by SP5 Patrick Teel made Oct 5 at 2020 10:28 PM

2020-10-05T22:28:28-04:00

When I was an E5 enlisted, my boss was a government civilian. He never lorded his rank over me, but if he had told me to give me 20 I probably would have deterred him to my Army chain of command.

Response by SSgt Dominic Gioffre made Oct 6 at 2020 7:19 PM

2020-10-06T19:19:51-04:00

It’s probably not illegal, yet I doubt it will be obeyed. Is it okay to laugh at that civilian?

Response by SGT Kenneth Rand made Oct 6 at 2020 8:46 PM

2020-10-06T20:46:46-04:00

If you have an issue with a NCO you pull them aside and speak to them politely and in a dignified manner. Once outside the chain of command you have no right to enforce punishment upon an enlisted or commissioned officer. If any civilian tried to punish anyone within my squad or platoon they'd have hell to pay I don't care if they retired officers. That just means they should know better and take their complaint to the company commander or company 1SG

Response by SGT William Benson made Oct 7 at 2020 12:31 AM

2020-10-07T00:31:36-04:00

Short answer: Not only NO, but HELL NO!

Response by 1stSgt Roger Moreau made Oct 7 at 2020 2:49 AM

2020-10-07T02:49:46-04:00

That is Boot Camp/Basic Training and MOS Training Mickey Mouse crap.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2020 12:03 PM

2020-10-07T12:03:28-04:00

Response by CSM Stuart Fuller made Oct 7 at 2020 11:57 PM

2020-10-07T23:57:52-04:00

Really a DAC ordering pushups? Perhaps he or she should spend more time doing thier job.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Oct 8 at 2020 12:25 AM

2020-10-08T00:25:31-04:00

Hell no...next question?

Response by CPT Daniel B Scalf made Oct 11 at 2020 1:26 PM

2020-10-11T13:26:55-04:00

No civilian has UCMJ authority. It's not the UCM&CJ for a reason.

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made Oct 30 at 2020 7:47 PM

2020-10-30T19:47:50-04:00

My son is a GS employee at Ft.Lewis. After his stint as CID,he got his Masters,and now councils GI's before and after their return.Under no circumstance would he allow a civilian to disrespect one of his soldiers.

Response by PO1 Lee Garrison made Oct 30 at 2020 10:17 PM

2020-10-30T22:17:38-04:00

I have had the “privilege” of working with many GS level employees. Being the only one at my command with my job specialty I got the honor of telling many GS level civilians to go fuck themselves, they were not my chain of command, they could not order me to do anything, and if they didn’t like it they could go talk to my officer in charge who would then tell them politely they can go fuck themselves.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2020 10:17 PM

2020-10-31T22:17:54-04:00

You are WAY out of your lane Top. Do your job. You ain’t in the CoC anymore.

Response by SGT(P) Oliver Freeman III made Nov 1 at 2020 2:13 AM

2020-11-01T02:13:56-05:00

As a former NCO and current GS-10 and up civilian (Director/Chief) that is a strong NO. It's not within the regulations and I would highly advise against that. It is not our place to do that under any circumstances. The only way that they would have any say in that arena, is if they were an ART (Active Reserve Tech) and they had both military rank (weekend) and civilian rank (during the week). That's the only way I could see that happening because they are both military and civilian.

Response by COL John Power made Nov 1 at 2020 6:39 PM

2020-11-01T18:39:25-05:00

Absolutely not! No way. The GS-15 is accorded certain relative position for things like seating at an event or billeting on TDY or the like. But they wear no rank and have no authority for military discipline.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2020 10:49 PM

2020-11-01T22:49:37-05:00

I mean you could try it but they’ll just laugh your @$$ right out of there.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2020 5:46 PM

2020-11-02T17:46:22-05:00

LMAO!!! I am both a GS13(23 yrs) and E6 Reservist (12 yrs) been overseas several times at our Embassies.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Nov 4 at 2020 1:23 PM

2020-11-04T13:23:57-05:00

I would told had 2 choices. STFU or step out back.

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Nov 11 at 2020 3:31 AM

2020-11-11T03:31:58-05:00

simply put : NO

Response by SGT Donna Millar made Nov 12 at 2020 5:33 PM

2020-11-12T17:33:30-05:00

Y’all gonna make me lose my mind ...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2020 9:37 AM

2020-12-03T09:37:27-05:00

Hell No, Absolutely Not! They would be the first to whine if they were dropped for push-ups.

Response by 1SG J. Shannon Lewis made Dec 3 at 2020 9:55 AM

2020-12-03T09:55:53-05:00

I cant believe this is even a legitimate question.

Response by SSG James Stodola made Dec 3 at 2020 11:23 AM

2020-12-03T11:23:34-05:00

Although I have not had a lot of exposure to DA civilians, this would seem to be a problem in that they have an ego problem and it needs to be checked quickly, by a commissioned officer so that they are aware they DO NOT have any authority in this respect over military personnel. When I was in if they pulled that shit on me I would have laughed and walked away and then informed my upper chain as to the problem with that particular individual. In the units that I was in if the CSM heard about this he would have been so far up that yahoo's ass he would have need a crane to pull the CSM's foot out. This a somewhat of a personal issue with me as there was a time in the military that we had all the personnel to handle all the needs we had, Food service , finance, medical, pastoral, etc.. Now we have all these civilians, and there are some real good, and caring ones in there, but most that I have seen don't give two shits about the military and this is why things take so damn long to get done anymore. I am too old school for this and really don't think they need to be involved in our community, no offense intended to anyone here who is a civilian worker, just venting a bit.

Response by LtCol Matthew Rajkovich made Dec 3 at 2020 4:58 PM

2020-12-03T16:58:44-05:00

Perfectly Legal...under the laws of stupidity!! Barring that, I think the next best way to analyze this is to simple see the forest for the trees. "GS" is not a "Rank", it is simply a “pay grade.” As such, GS-10 thru GS-15 are NOT officers with UCMJ responsibilities or authority. They don’t hold a commission outlining officer duties. They might swear an oath of office, but the oath is not the same one we took in the military.

The bottom line is that federal employees are still civilians. The may have great responsibility, but they are clearly outside of the chain of command. The only civilian federal employees that are in the DoD chain of command are POTUS, SecDef, SecArm, SecNav, and SecAF. If they say, "jump", you may ask, "how high, sir?"

Response by SFC Jonathan Adams made Dec 3 at 2020 5:17 PM

2020-12-03T17:17:36-05:00

Sounds like a real good way to get told to fuck off

Response by COL John Frederick made Dec 3 at 2020 7:43 PM

2020-12-03T19:43:34-05:00

BLUF: No

I’m a retired Colonel and current GS15. The only civilians who can issue lawful orders are the Secretary of Defense and the President. A GS employee may issue directives and guidance, but they lack the force of law. You can still get in trouble if you fail to follow procedures or fail to perform duties to standard, but push-ups are not in the civilian management toolbox. I had to explain to a very senior civilian that she could give me direction and hold accountable if I didn’t follow it, but she was not in my chain of command and could not meet the legal definition of “lawful order.”

Response by CWO3 Warren Gaudreau made Dec 4 at 2020 12:12 PM

2020-12-04T12:12:44-05:00

He can demand all he wants but it is not a lawful order from a superior military person.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made Dec 4 at 2020 3:30 PM

2020-12-04T15:30:16-05:00

Depends how big he/she is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2020 6:47 PM

2020-12-21T18:47:19-05:00

As someone who works in the medical field, I ran into this a lot. Which is why the Army started putting a stop to senior leaders getting out of the military and walking straight into a GS position with no real transition time to get their attitude and mindset straight. I’ve walked away from certain situations due to it. Not gonna ruin my day or one of my Soldiers with the selfish ego, not today.

Response by SSgt Tom Canning made Dec 21 at 2020 7:38 PM

2020-12-21T19:38:52-05:00

Not even in the Air Force would this happen!

Response by SSG Robert Jackson made Dec 21 at 2020 7:54 PM

2020-12-21T19:54:07-05:00

To answer your question to the best of my knowledge. No, the only authority a civilian has over a Officer or NCO is if they are a part of their rating Chain and then I believe it is limited to their Job only. I speak for myself on this issue I am retired army when I hung up my uniform for the last time I relinquished my authority to correct and discipline soldiers.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Dec 22 at 2020 9:33 AM

2020-12-22T09:33:27-05:00

No. The only possible way I can think of for this to occur would perhaps be a civilian instructor granted such temporary authority by orders of those soldiers' chain of command during specific training -classes. example- a Physical fitness/training class run/lead by a civilian-GS .

Response by CPL Roland Newton made Dec 22 at 2020 8:00 PM

2020-12-22T20:00:21-05:00

I believe so. They are a Military employee and carry the rank of Officers.

Response by SPC Timothy Stafford made Dec 23 at 2020 1:21 AM

2020-12-23T01:21:33-05:00

File under "Stuff that never happened." This scenario is so unlikely it just reeks of Rallypoint troll. This is a joke, right? Captain?

Response by SPC Donn Sinclair made Dec 23 at 2020 8:55 AM

2020-12-23T08:55:28-05:00

Seriously? I'd have had two words for that civilian, and they ain't let's dance.

Response by SGT Philip Klein made Dec 26 at 2020 12:07 PM

2020-12-26T12:07:35-05:00

Response by SGT George Duncan made Dec 26 at 2020 1:30 PM

2020-12-26T13:30:19-05:00

just remember if they can't do them they can't ask

Response by SFC Peter Cyprian made Dec 26 at 2020 3:42 PM

2020-12-26T15:42:40-05:00

Simple question, simple answer: NO
GS15 does not have UCMJ authority. YOU can call his HR and report him/her- this is WAY outside his/her authority.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2020 3:27 AM

2020-12-27T03:27:16-05:00

Not just no but h%^L no !

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Dec 27 at 2020 10:24 AM

2020-12-27T10:24:21-05:00

Similar situation: I was 2 weeks from EAS as a Corporal at Camp Pendleton. Coming out of the chow hall after dinner and ran into a ROTC. He stopped me and started to chew my ass for not saluting him. I cut him off, "Mister i have boots with more time in service than you, when you earn the right to put the EGA on your blouse I will happily salute you, until then get out of my face." I turned and continued to walk away. My Sgt.Major was just coming out of the chow hall and had heard the whole exchange. As I was walking away he layed into that kid so I am sure he had no trouble with constipation for at least 5 years LOL

Response by SGT James Colbert made Dec 27 at 2020 3:38 PM

2020-12-27T15:38:19-05:00

First I would like to say...hahahahahahahahahahahaha....thank you.. I work in a Military Hospital and most of us veterans are GS civilians.retired officers and such...I would love to tell a service member to push up sea level. If this DA civilian was smart he would go to the senior NCO and explain to him why the service member needs to push up. ME Personally.... where I am is Joint Service and I know another of Navy Chiefs and Army Senior enlisted..so i just go to them, tell them whats up..but I cannot personally tell a se r vice member that..especially not an army one

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Dec 27 at 2020 8:52 PM

2020-12-27T20:52:54-05:00

Simple: NO. Unless it has changed, a a GS civilian will defer the situation to the Ranking military member in the section or in charge of the unit. The GS civilian must write the statement [of charges].

Response by LTC Lance Headrick made Dec 27 at 2020 9:18 PM

2020-12-27T21:18:03-05:00

There maybe circumstances that allow for this, BUT I have never heard of it. Further....I cannot imagine a Retiree/GS Civilian saying any such thing. Just point it out to one of his peer civilians...they will shake it out. No not even a slick sleeve private....specially not them.

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Dec 28 at 2020 12:39 AM

2020-12-28T00:39:44-05:00

No.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Dec 28 at 2020 9:26 AM

2020-12-28T09:26:49-05:00

Absolutely not!

Response by SFC Chuck Martinez made Dec 28 at 2020 4:53 PM

2020-12-28T16:53:35-05:00

Actually not, I worked for a GS15 In Hawaii as the training NCO for Schofield Barracks but my office was in Fort Shafter. I did not have to report to him but I did have to give him reports on the funds being used for different classes that were given in both bases. I also used to work with the Marines and Navy of courses I used to give. A GS civilian work as no power over a soldier when it come to PT, UCMJ, or wearing of uniforms. I use to refer to him as Mr. and not sir. GS civilians are basically working for the military when in a military installation or the Pentagon. In fact, a Cpt. can be the supervisor and rater of a GS-14. I really never heard of such a thing, and I have worked with several GS folks during my army career!

Response by SSG Robert Cole made Dec 28 at 2020 8:47 PM

2020-12-28T20:47:41-05:00

What? If you even think that a civilian of any GS rating has such authority you might want to reread the regs. When on active duty I pulled rank on those pukes many times... They hated it.. but oh well... So no.. they do not. Can't believe that's even a question. Sorry.. but I can't.. and if you were around when one attempted..... and didn't intercede.. shame on you.

Response by CPO Nate S. made Dec 28 at 2020 9:51 PM

2020-12-28T21:51:31-05:00

Well this article is a year old or so. I did not see it then, so I am responding now.

Would you ever see the Secretary of Defense (a civlian) tell the Chief of Naval Operations (4 star Admiral) to get down and give them 10, except of course as a joke (between the two in private) or something similar. In all seriousness, I don't think so!

I understand the the words "...those appointed over me..." So, let's say the person is a GS 13 whose equivlant to an O-5 (USN Commander or USA LtCol, etc.); however, the terms "command authority" comes to mind. If they have never served and are trying out their new "authority" in this childish manner without understanding what they are doing and why, they are dangerous - very dangerous, in my humble opinion.

I also agree with many of you - from [258219: 1sg-stephen-burgess] to [789121: maj-john-bell] to [306533: col-joseph-lenertz]. Oh, [419638: scpo-mark-cornelius] 100% spot on shipmate "...it is a bootcamp thing..." Senior, what I have found amazing is that such questions are being asked because the Chain of Command appears to be broken and junior troops are not being properly instructed on this and many topics. Just saying.............................................

Have a Happy New Year for 2021!!!

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Dec 29 at 2020 11:37 AM

2020-12-29T11:37:03-05:00

No. The civilian may certainly file a complaint with the NCO's CO and that is the extent of their power.

Response by SFC Clifton Brown made Dec 29 at 2020 11:50 AM

2020-12-29T11:50:30-05:00

As an former SFC and a GS-12, sure. I make myself do push-ups every morning but I'm not too sure which one of us is giving the order or cadence (no pun intended to bipolar patients). Or perhaps in a parallel universe on a post-apocalyptic Earth is ruled by flying unicorns while the US in that realm has a population of two people, me as an NCO and if the other is President.

Otherwise, that'll be an empathic 'No'! in my time, and per the existing DoD Financial Management Regulations, equivalent military rank for civilians ( in my case, O-3) did not grant the authority for a civilian to make such a demand, but it did allow equal benefits for things such as travel, housing and lodging when civilian grade is stipulated on the travel order.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2020 12:22 PM

2020-12-30T12:22:55-05:00

No. That civilian has no command authority over military members. They can supervise, counsel, they can sign off as a rater on evals, but they cannot order service members to do pushups or physical corrective action.

Response by CDR G Gacser made Dec 30 at 2020 12:24 PM

2020-12-30T12:24:49-05:00

I laugh when DOD civilians translate their “equivilent”” rank for travel purposes into military rank. You are a “Camp follower>” Now shut up and do my laundry.

Response by SCPO Ken Badoian made Dec 30 at 2020 4:31 PM

2020-12-30T16:31:56-05:00

Bigly, NOPE. But I have seen civilian supervisors in US Naval Shipyard chew out one of my sailors for doing something stupid. He , old Navy, rushed over to me and asked me to do something. I saw the incident from a deck above. My idiot was dozing off on a fire watch. I took him over by his ear over to the grizzly old yard bird and asked him what he wanted to do with the clown. After six hours chipping and painting a small storeroom the apprentice dozer, knew he was wrong and stood well clear of the civilian supervisor. PS the supervisor had served on a LST crammed full of ordinance during the Okinawa campaign. He was more salty than this writer and when it comes to salty I been there done that.

Response by MSgt Sidney Lichter made Dec 31 at 2020 10:56 AM

2020-12-31T10:56:34-05:00

Not even if the civilian is in the soldier's chain-of-command. Civilian COULD give a written reprimand.

Response by PO2 Brian Hoadley made Dec 31 at 2020 12:44 PM

2020-12-31T12:44:12-05:00

Respect the chain of command-(Babylon 5 ref), civilians are not in the direct chain of command. Therefore a Senator cannot order you to do jack. But your 01 can certainly tell you to dig a ditch because he's a "commissioned" officer in your chain of command.

Response by SFC Stephen W. made Dec 31 at 2020 3:36 PM

2020-12-31T15:36:58-05:00

I have been on active duty as well as a US DOD civilian for over 40 years and have never seen any civilian employee demand any active duty member perform push ups or other corrective action. If a service member failed to follow directions or tasking, the civilian employee would just need to contact the soldier's commanding officer or first sergeant for action.

Response by PO2 Christopher Foss made Dec 31 at 2020 6:30 PM

2020-12-31T18:30:37-05:00

"You need to stop watching BS Hollyweird movies. Pushups outside of boot camp ain't real world."

Response by COL Jeff Del Fuoco made Jan 1 at 2021 8:03 AM

2021-01-01T08:03:33-05:00

Hell no.

Response by SPC Victor Johnston made Jan 1 at 2021 9:01 AM

2021-01-01T09:01:47-05:00

The legality of this is an interesting question. There is nothing that I could find saying a civil service could not do this; but the civil service would not be able to initiate UCMJ action against a SM of the SM refused. Tread cautiously on this though. Most senior civil service members (GS/GG - 13-15) were once either field grade officers or senior NCOs. They typically have sway with senior leadership and many are the raters or senior raters of the people who can initiate UCMJ. This means when they have a valid reason to direct UCMJ action, it is typically rendered without much pushback.

This story lacks a lot of context, but if the GS/GG was 13 or higher and supervisory, they are most likely a director or a deputy director and that does give them a certain amount of authority. While I would not tell my SMs to “half-right face”, that is how many old school folks were taught to maintain order and discipline.

Response by MSgt Gilbert Jones made Jan 1 at 2021 3:45 PM

2021-01-01T15:45:21-05:00

If the GS employee is in charge of his department/function then he is the boss as far as doing the job, he does not have any other responsibility over the military person. One of my jobs as a civilian GS employee I had two military NCOs that I supervised, and I had no authority over them other then on the job. I did write their performance reports and put them in for awards when appropriate.

Response by MSG Jesse Molinar made Jan 1 at 2021 6:52 PM

2021-01-01T18:52:13-05:00

In no realm should GS try to impose any kind of punishment like this to a soldier. If they want, enlist and put on a uniform, if retired, that authority ended when they retired (which some tend to forget). Even now as a contactor (retired after 27 years) occasions arise where I professionally remind them of their left and right limits.

Response by SrA Corey Steadman made Jan 1 at 2021 8:43 PM

2021-01-01T20:43:53-05:00

Nah, as a civilian contractor for TRICARE, there's no damn way I even thought that was ever a good idea. The most I'd ever do would stop a briefing if I had soldiers...in particular, very young ones, who were being knuckleheads when I was in the middle of briefing them on their benefits. I'll let senior NCOs handle that business...

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Jan 1 at 2021 11:17 PM

2021-01-01T23:17:41-05:00

Absolutely NOT, they are NOT uniform personnel.
I had a supervisor who was a GS12 try to make me stand at attention in front of him. Though he was a Captain in the Reserve, he was not in uniform and his position in the unit was as a Civilian, he does NOT have the privilege of ordering Uniform personnel in an official capacity. I had to remind him of that in front of the OIC.

Response by SSgt Christopher Moore made Jan 2 at 2021 5:54 AM

2021-01-02T05:54:26-05:00

I wish I would see some dumb shit like this.

Response by Sgt E Mark Pogue made Jan 2 at 2021 8:16 PM

2021-01-02T20:16:51-05:00

No way at all, this E-5 would tell him what he could do with his push ups... He is a civilian and that’s all he needs to know..

Response by SGT Jd Cannon made Jan 3 at 2021 12:23 AM

2021-01-03T00:23:47-05:00

The best answer.... where are they in the chain of command.

Response by MSgt Brian Duchscherer made Jan 3 at 2021 9:55 AM

2021-01-03T09:55:06-05:00

In my career, I was a WG-11 and also an E-7, however the two did not mix. The WG-11 rating, (which is a rating like the GS10 discussed here) gave me privileges of an officer of low rank for billeting and transportation status. However, the two were never combined, I was either sent as an E-7 on duty, or a WG-11 as "civilian" working for the DOD. As a civilian, I would have had had no military authority over enlisted, even if I was in charge of an operation we were performing.

Response by Neil Henson made Jan 3 at 2021 8:02 PM

2021-01-03T20:02:13-05:00

Hey don't get a boot up your ass for not having dog tags. Get them at dogtagUS.com
the real thing

Response by CPO Leonard Orth made Jan 4 at 2021 2:46 AM

2021-01-04T02:46:25-05:00

No.
That civilian can go up the chain of command and get some senior enlisted or officer to rain destruction down on a military member. But no way does a civilian have any authority to impose anything on an active duty member.

Response by Sgt Tee Organ made Jan 4 at 2021 10:00 AM

2021-01-04T10:00:31-05:00

I would have to say hell no to that one. That's not how the pay system works in the General Services fields at all. Further if I saw any of that going on I would definitely have a say in that right away!

Response by Sgt Mario Soberal made Jan 4 at 2021 10:05 AM

2021-01-04T10:05:17-05:00

Why is this even a question? Is there some Karen GS15 out their that thinks they are actual military? This sounds so stupid, and I've been out for over 40 years, that it must be Army, because every Marine I know would have told that civilian where to start breathing.

Response by Sgt Mario Soberal made Jan 4 at 2021 10:06 AM

2021-01-04T10:06:28-05:00

This must be by some soldier, because a Marine would have told that civilian to start breathing where the sun don't shine...

Response by SSG R R made Jan 4 at 2021 11:12 AM

2021-01-04T11:12:41-05:00

No.. just no...

Response by LTC Denis Sullivan made Jan 4 at 2021 11:50 AM

2021-01-04T11:50:30-05:00

It is not only not legal, but laughable. As a soldier, or officer I would have not only laughed in their face, but then proceeded to tie them up in more official complaints and claims they would have their own law school named after them. Now, having said that, it is highly unlikely that someone who was able to make it to GS-15 would be so stupid to even try such a thing. There are more effective and permanent ways to enact corrective action or gain compliance than pushups.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jan 4 at 2021 10:11 PM

2021-01-04T22:11:22-05:00

You are a Captain O-3, and you do not know the answer to this? The answer is HELL NO! Not a Jr. Officer, Not a Sr. NCO, Not even the lowliest PV1. It’s one thing for Drill Sergeants to mold a soldier, it’s a whole other thing for anyone, let alone DOD civilians, to dishonor and disrespect soldiers.

Response by SSG David Angell made Jan 9 at 2021 5:12 PM

2021-01-09T17:12:55-05:00

If I were the responding Military personnel, and the probably did, to go pack sand. This is what I would tell the GS rating civilian.
As a civilian, regardless of your GS rating, you have no authority to tell me what to do, outside the job description. (Should the soldier be working for the civilian). And doing push ups, or anything like that isn't under your authority.
I know I had a problem with a civilian contractor, while serving in Iraq. Although he didn't want me to do push ups. He thought as a prior 1st SGT he could chew my ass at for correcting his inability to do his job.
He threatened to tell the Col. in charge what I did. It didn't do him any good, as I told the Col. what had transpired and when the contractor reported me, he got his ass handed to him on a silver plater..No more problems.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made Jan 24 at 2021 6:58 PM

2021-01-24T18:58:05-05:00

No this is not legal.. NO civilian is or even can be in your official chain of command other than the President of the United States. PERIOD.

Response by SSG Cam Prince made Jan 30 at 2021 11:16 AM

2021-01-30T11:16:02-05:00

As a GS9 at Ft. Bragg, I chewed out a private for walking around in uniform with his hands in his pockets. Even as a GS12, I would never have considered demanding pushups.

Response by SSG Ken Potts made Jan 30 at 2021 6:23 PM

2021-01-30T18:23:05-05:00

They're a civilian, enough said.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2021 7:24 PM

2021-01-30T19:24:35-05:00

No Sir! Next question.

Response by 1SG Donald Elmore made Jan 30 at 2021 7:51 PM

2021-01-30T19:51:23-05:00

I would tell that GS where he could gop real fast. I have worked with GS civilians and I do not take orders from them.

Response by Maj Earl Tilford made Jan 31 at 2021 4:26 PM

2021-01-31T16:26:46-05:00

Maybe. If he is in the chain of command in some capacity but mostly, no. C.I.A case officers might be an exception.

Response by PVT Robert Cameron made Jan 31 at 2021 9:52 PM

2021-01-31T21:52:57-05:00

I don't know if I would to a civilian GS. But would you for a GS who served and had 2 Bronze Star's? For me a civilian GS can get stuffed. For a fellow service member even if he's a civilian, I'd have to look ask myself why he was trying to order me to do push ups.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2021 10:42 PM

2021-01-31T22:42:54-05:00

Active duty or reserves? Reserve side, most my chain of command are GS on the week days..

Response by PO1 Don Rowan made Feb 2 at 2021 8:46 AM

2021-02-02T08:46:48-05:00

Nope. They're no in the chain of command.

Response by Maj Neal Jackman made Feb 3 at 2021 7:43 PM

2021-02-03T19:43:02-05:00

They can try, but not one of my troops.

Response by SGT T D made Feb 8 at 2021 12:01 PM

2021-02-08T12:01:15-05:00

Theye could probably get away with it on a slick sleeve or skeeter wings but anybody else should laugh or second guess how bad they had skrewed up to get a contractor that pissed at them

Response by LCpl Kenneth Heath made Feb 9 at 2021 12:33 AM

2021-02-09T00:33:31-05:00

Ah, Ha-Ha-Ha... No!
They'll get addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am" (as applicable) because that is normal protocol, but I ain't goin' back to Boot Camp over a civilian who couldn't cause a rash on a Drill Instructors butt!

Response by CW4 John Soto made Feb 9 at 2021 7:40 AM

2021-02-09T07:40:38-05:00

Whats the rest of the story. Sounds like an inflated BS story. I'm retired and now a GS employee and if any NCO or higher complied with such a request or as you call it, an order, they shouldn't be an NCO. But, your story seems more like a barracks fairy tale.

Response by CPO Michael Hatten made Feb 9 at 2021 5:50 PM

2021-02-09T17:50:55-05:00

Remind me, again, where civilians are in the chain of command. Oh, yeah, NOWHERE!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2021 8:28 PM

2021-02-17T20:28:18-05:00

Lmfao no. Tell then to eat shit. What a silly question.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Feb 21 at 2021 11:50 PM

2021-02-21T23:50:23-05:00

Hell no...

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Mar 12 at 2021 2:43 PM

2021-03-12T14:43:17-05:00

Absolutely, NOT. Not an NCO and not a Private.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Mar 12 at 2021 5:26 PM

2021-03-12T17:26:45-05:00

I have been down that road That's when you say very nicely but firmly to kiss your ass.

Response by SSG Dale London made Mar 13 at 2021 10:31 PM

2021-03-13T22:31:01-05:00

It is not illegal, per se. Rather, the civilian lacks the authority to demand something like that. If they hold a position of authority in a military organization, their authority will extend no further than the area of expertise for which they were hired.
The only exceptions I can think of are if 1) their job includes leading you in PT, or 2) you were ordered by a superior officer to obey the orders of the civilian -- at which point the order you would be obeying is your military superior's order, not that of the civilian -- but I don't see that actually happening IRL.
That being said, if you refuse to drop and give the civilian twenty or whatever, you probably ought to remind him/her that matters of discipline and training are the province of your military chain of command.
Or... you could just give him the stink-eye and walk away as you laugh at him under your breath.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Mar 14 at 2021 11:05 PM

2021-03-14T23:05:01-04:00

It might actually depend. It is possible for a GS Civilian to be put in "command" of a unit. This would typically be a GS-14 or GS-15 (with pay-banding, this would be Band 4). If somebody who is in command orders an individual to do pushups, then guess what.

Of course, these situations are exceptionally rare. I have seen it happen in the Air Force once. If one were to say that it would never happen in the Army, I would believe you.

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made Mar 15 at 2021 4:13 AM

2021-03-15T04:13:46-04:00

A GS civilian is an administrative leader and, not in command nor even in a senior commissioned officer post. GS civilian is called a Mister or Miss/Mrs., depending on marital status. In the 100/442nd Infantry, we had reservists who were both field grades and GS civilian personnel. When they dawned their uniforms, they received respect of a senior commissioned officer and when they wore their civvies, they were respected as Mr. Chung or Miss Smith, or by their first names. An SES sporting stars on his car; does a uniformed service member salute him?

Response by SSG Jerry Pannell made Mar 15 at 2021 5:24 AM

2021-03-15T05:24:07-04:00

I would have to laugh at some Civilian trying to make a Soldier do anything unless they were in charge of them an still would have them talk to that person's chain of command.

Response by Sgt Edward Harold made Mar 15 at 2021 4:06 PM

2021-03-15T16:06:13-04:00

Only if he is given that authority by higher military authority and that should never happen

Response by 1stSgt John Harrison made Mar 15 at 2021 5:33 PM

2021-03-15T17:33:30-04:00

In a one word response NO

Response by SSgt Ricardo Lugo made Mar 16 at 2021 12:35 AM

2021-03-16T00:35:52-04:00

I am a Air Force Security Force Veteran; with all the respect of all arm forces department; during my military tour the Air Force develop a Air Force form 314. The purpose of this form is to help all military higher ranks to give a helping hand to the new military members that commence there military carrier. Any corrective measures that the soldier needed was logged on the soldier AF Form 314; that he always have to carry in his possession. If for any reason a higher ranking officer observe any discrepancy in any new military soldier; he has the right to request the soldier AF Form 314 and proceed to log down the corrective measures; and send it to the commander of the soldier that committed the discrepancy. This system facilitates professional military ethical relation between the chain of command of all the Department of Defense personnel. We are not taking away the need to be committed to physical exercise the warriors of the arm forces; to be prepare mentally and physically to respond to any war contingency. I believe that this system can be implemented to all Department of Defense branches. This will actualize to the contemporary military forces in giving a better way to conduct military business interaction between the different branches of the arm forces. So God help us in actualizing the forces of the future.

Response by 2d Lt Witness Eggs made Mar 16 at 2021 7:50 AM

2021-03-16T07:50:53-04:00

Why not? Civilians pay our salaries.

Response by SGT Keith Boettcher made Mar 16 at 2021 10:41 AM

2021-03-16T10:41:12-04:00

Now as a retired NCO I see a lot of violation that I would not tolerate when I was in. I live next to a Army Post known as Ft Hood, and I witness numerous violation daily. I bite my tongue to keep my composure not to get involved. They way I see it I had my time already. It is now time for this newer none skilled, caring, motived generation of TROPPERS to take charge and do what is right. The main problem is "offending and getting a complaint filed against them for those who get butt hurt and join the military for a free ride". That's why so many Seasoned TROOPERS become veterans and get out and call it quits. They are tired of having their hands tied and not being able to say something to perform on the spot corrections, or provide constructive criticisms. It's is a shame, but it's the truth.

Response by SR Jack Miles made Mar 16 at 2021 5:41 PM

2021-03-16T17:41:20-04:00

Hell np

Response by SFC Oddie Brown made Mar 16 at 2021 9:09 PM

2021-03-16T21:09:57-04:00

Not NO but HELL NO. If I ever saw this happen I would lose what respect I ever had for either of them.

Response by SFC Kurt Brunken made Mar 17 at 2021 1:30 PM

2021-03-17T13:30:28-04:00

Legal ? Who knows and who cares. Moral and Ethical - Never.

Response by SPC Lyle Montgomery made Mar 17 at 2021 3:00 PM

2021-03-17T15:00:35-04:00

When I was a soldier, If a civilian gave me an order I would tell him to shove his orders up his ass

Response by SFC James Corona made Mar 17 at 2021 3:32 PM

2021-03-17T15:32:05-04:00

Of course a Senior NCO should do pushups! For ANOC, PT TEST Qualification or other Army School requirement. Civilians is another story but know police academies require it in their entry exams.

Response by Sgt Michael Sechrist made Mar 17 at 2021 10:15 PM

2021-03-17T22:15:11-04:00

As a vet and retired GS13 the short answer is HELL NO. If there is an issue with a soldier it should be referred to his/her chain of command

Response by CPT James Coster made Mar 18 at 2021 2:53 AM

2021-03-18T02:53:45-04:00

I am a former Army JAG. All U.S. military members, officers and enlisted, take an oath to follow the lawful orders of all Officers (ranks) above them. There are DOD Civilian Senior Executive Service personnel that also carry military rank equivalent. So "technically" these SES Civilians do "rate" a salute and could "technically" issue orders to a lower ranking military member. HOWEVER, as practicality and "customs and practices" within the Department of Defense dictate, SES Civilians NEVER give direct orders to any uniformed personnel of lower rank than the SES person. The correct procedure which has always been the rule within DOD is that if a "high-ranking Civilian" has an issue with any uniformed member, any such discussion is taken up with the service member's immediate Chain of Command. AND - the ONLY "Civilians" within DOD who could even entertain issuing an order to a member of the U.S. military would be the VERY senior SES personnel. NO Civilian beneath the SES level would have any authority to ask or tell a uniformed military member anything, unless there was some kind of "pre-arrangement" with the soldier's Chain of Command and the particular civilian. If I were confronted by a Civilian who was "attempting" to give me an Order to do anything, if it was a minor matter, I would probably comply. However, I would respectfully deny a "disciplinary" or "physical exercise" Order and ask the Civilian if he/she would accompany me to my immediate Commanding Officer for clarification.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2021 10:21 AM

2021-03-18T10:21:41-04:00

Where is the "LMFAO" RP emoji when you need it?

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Mar 18 at 2021 12:02 PM

2021-03-18T12:02:20-04:00

Me, I would give him a single digit salute to let him know he was $1.

Response by SSgt W. Aaron Gregory made Mar 18 at 2021 3:41 PM

2021-03-18T15:41:50-04:00

What I have witnessed... Nope. GS employees are not put in positions where they are supervisors of active-duty military [but that's not always true]. They indeed can be put in leadership roles, but for any disciplinary situation, the GS passes that over to a military liaison who is the administrative supervisor of sorts ("the command"). Day-to-day things the GS runs the show but is not (and typically doesn't act like they are) military. In school's battalion (while at tech school) whenever we asked questions of the GS guys, they would reply "talk to your bosses" or "don't let your bosses find out!". Most of the GSs were former military, but they were long over the "gimme 25!" junk. Most times they'd just watch from the sidelines during PT, smile, and shake their heads. For fitness report purposes, your military supervisor would ask your GS about your performance, etc., and take their word for it. So it's not free reign to sh*t on GSs. Showing respect is not mandatory, unless you're a decent servicemember. But if they get in your face and start acting like a drill instructor, uhm, no. And that's what I'd reply with.

Response by MSG Bob S made Mar 18 at 2021 6:42 PM

2021-03-18T18:42:56-04:00

I'm no lawyer, but my recommendation to you is to inform that civilian to fornicate him/herself.

Response by SSgt M. B. Ingersoll made Mar 19 at 2021 10:21 AM

2021-03-19T10:21:59-04:00

I'm no authority but this issue has long been an annoyance to me. I was fortunate in my career that I had only military in my chain of command. Nobody who is NOT subject to the UCMJ ought to be attempting to enforce military regs on military personnel.

Years after my DOS, I visited Dyess AFB with two other FAA Air Traffic Control employees (by that time, I was a GS-12). The moment I walked into Base Ops, they were "sirring" the snot outta me and I asked them to stop it. Yes, I understood their requirements, but I was NOT a commissioned military officer and, in MY opinion, not deserving of the "Sir." Respect and professionalism are fine (and expected unless the recipient proves unworthy). But deference? No.

I had then, and still have now, FAR more respect for ALL our serving and former military than I ever had for some mere civilian government employee. I've been both. The military has proven to me to be worthy of my respect. Very few people during my federal civilian career deserved it (and all but a few of them were former military).

Response by GySgt Thomas Vick made Mar 19 at 2021 10:30 AM

2021-03-19T10:30:25-04:00

I would very seriously explain to that civilian that I was about to put my boot where the sun doesn't shine. UCMJ or not.

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Mar 20 at 2021 11:16 PM

2021-03-20T23:16:28-04:00

Again there are those who talk the talk but have never walk the walk. Want to be's are a dime a dozen. Draft dodgers are worse. Unless you have written the check to uncle sam Go To Hell. You mean nothing. Come and take me on, I'm 72 I will still kick your ass, moron

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Mar 21 at 2021 2:27 AM

2021-03-21T02:27:09-04:00

They can pound sand

Response by CSM Jerry Weldon made Apr 11 at 2021 7:24 PM

2021-04-11T19:24:38-04:00

The only civilian that can give military personnel such an order would be the Commander in Chief

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2021 11:30 AM

2021-04-15T11:30:41-04:00

I was an Air Reserve Technician, civilian during the week, military on drill weekend. I was the shop chief both during the week and on the weekends. If there was any military personnel there on weekdays, I was still their shop chief. If they needed to be corrected, or counseled, it was by me regardless of my military status at the time.

Response by MSG Paul L. Ruiz made May 4 at 2021 5:12 PM

2021-05-04T17:12:25-04:00

As a retired 1SG and GS-12 myself, I would never image a GS civilian doing that to member of our uniformed services, and as it has already been mentioned that the GS civilian isn’t in the service members chain of command, but also, the only other way that a GS civilian would command a soldier to do push-ups, is if they were in charge of a physical training program for the unit.

Response by PO2 Eric Lozaga made May 11 at 2021 5:55 PM

2021-05-11T17:55:40-04:00

They can be a GS1 or GS 900 billion... hell, they can be an ex O10.. either way you just laugh in their face and then tell them to go fuck themselves. well maybe a little more respectful to an ex O10. lol

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made May 20 at 2021 2:51 PM

2021-05-20T14:51:14-04:00

My son is an Army civilian .Like most,he is prior Army.Under no circumstances would he ever give a military command to a soldier.

Response by Cpl Ernest Thomas made Jun 1 at 2021 1:39 PM

2021-06-01T13:39:06-04:00

Response by CDR Robert Osburn made Jun 5 at 2021 1:05 PM

2021-06-05T13:05:00-04:00

I was a Dept of Navy civilian GS12 once upon a time. It would take a special "type" of civilian to demand that. No one would take you serious. Id say they have other issues. Sounds more like they didn't do well in regular Army and carried a grudge to the civilian side.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Jun 27 at 2021 10:15 AM

2021-06-27T10:15:30-04:00

Hell No

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2022 10:29 AM

2022-09-20T10:29:22-04:00

Absolutely not! And if that soldier listens to them, they should be slapped.

Response by Cpl William R made Aug 24 at 2023 12:35 AM

2023-08-24T00:35:57-04:00

No. And I doubt this actually happened.