Is it normal to get a negative counseling when you attend a voluntary training?

2018-12-23T12:09:25-05:00

Some of the NCO leadership hold what the consider informal voluntary trainings that help with professional development of junior enlisted. Things range from mock boards, to military knowledge study sessions, to Rick marches. I’ve noticed that my NCOIC has a tendency to give soldiers that don’t perform well at these trainings negative counseling statements. An example of this would be a solider was counseled for disrespecting a NCO. The soldier wasn’t blatantly disrespectful or acting up. His infraction was that during his mock board he was nervous and started fidgeting and kept breaking eye contact when speaking to the board members. His counseling stated that behavior like that will not be tolerated and that if it persists UCMJ action could be taken against the soldier. Another example would be we were holding a ruck and I informed my first line that I wouldn’t be at the ruck as it was pouring rain and I was still getting over a bad case of step. My NCOIC said he wants to counsel me for failing to show up when we were told it is a voluntary training.

Is it normal for NCOs to use circumstances like that to counseling soldiers for violating punitive articles in an environment that was explicitly presented as training, voluntary, and to help with professional development.

Response by SGT Mark Estes made Dec 23 at 2018 12:29 PM

2018-12-23T12:29:05-05:00

There’s got to be more to the story I’m guessing?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 1:02 PM

2018-12-23T13:02:23-05:00

Counseling is a tool to help soldiers develop and to document various events, this can range from event oriented to monthly counseling. Receiving a counseling is not terrible in nature however, I have not heard of "voluntary professional development." Doing extra curricular activities is encouraged specially if a soldier needs extra support in certain areas. By all means, you are not required to attend voluntary activities, but it is always a good idea to ensure it is not your place of duty. If the NCO wants to counsel you, well that is his business. In that counseling you should be able to express your concerns and in the future, ensure you clarify what is expected from you and the "voluntary" activities.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Dec 23 at 2018 1:06 PM

2018-12-23T13:06:29-05:00

More to the story or not, anyone who's been in awhile will occasionally see a lower level "leader" of marginal to poor skill do whatever to restrict juniors obtaining legitimate knowledge that furthers their growth. In the leadership arena, it's learning good things that you then see the NCO not do, have no clue of, etc. Their defensive mechanism is to shield people from learning that. Good SELs see that pretty quick and will take care of it lest it percolates up my way. I've had more than one occasion where a NCO was reassigned to restrict the blast perimeter with subsequent NCOER in the bottom third. In the grand scheme, you need a bottom third to push the upper third through when progression bottlenecks. At that point, other employment looms.

Re: backing away from something that NCO sets up as voluntary, get paper. If Medical covers you, fine. If medical doesn't, then you're on your own. Also, many times a poor leader can't connect the dots differentiating constructive and encouraging informal counseling and formal improper by the book action. That's one of the symptoms of what I identified above.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 1:36 PM

2018-12-23T13:36:38-05:00

Counseling is just a written discussion. No one is going to send you to UCMJ for not being at voluntary training. Some NCOs were raised that everything goes on paper. That misses the purpose of counseling and its completely useless for punitive action. Just giving someone a negative counseling doesn't mean they've actually violated anything. The people who write these are not lawyers, so they put these statements at the bottom just in case it could, one day, maybe, possibly, be useful.

Since it's just a discussion, you have your chance to write your response. If the training was voluntary, write that in there. If it was a mock board, put that in there. This is where you get to tell you story and if there is ever an issue, the commander can see the whole picture and use their common sense to make a decision.

So, your NCO can counsel you all he wants. Counseling statements don't equal UCMJ. It's just a piece of paper that goes into a folder.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 1:47 PM

2018-12-23T13:47:08-05:00

Thanks for all feedback. The counseling’s just felt punitive. Even though I know they are not.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 2:24 PM

2018-12-23T14:24:12-05:00

It seems like there should be more to this story. What your describing sounds irrational at best. You may be in a situation where you're being "strongly encouraged" to attend the training, even if it's not "mandatory."

The bottom line is that your NCO leadership has the freedom to counsel you as they see fit. This is because counseling is not and should not be punitive. In the worst case scenarios counseling statements are used to establish a pattern of misconduct and support administrative actions. I understand your frustration, but you don't really have a lot of recourse with a counseling statement. Your next step would probably be engaging your next level of leadership and asking them to explain why you were counseled.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 6:57 PM

2018-12-23T18:57:33-05:00

No, it's not normal for a good NCO to do what you've described. One who requires some professional development and counseling of his own, yes.
Here is my suggestion, ask him if the training is on the training schedule. If he doesn't get the clue, use your NCO support Channel and CoC of it doesn't resolve

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Dec 24 at 2018 1:57 AM

2018-12-24T01:57:30-05:00

So... I'm gonna go a different route than everyone else here. While it is true that the specific examples you gave are a bit out of tune, the general question still gets an overwhelming "yes." You can (and should) be counseled - positive, negative, developmental, whatever - even for voluntary activities or for "off duty" activities. If you get in a bar fight over the weekend, even if it doesn't come down on the blotter, counseling should occur. Depending on the circumstances, it can be verbal, but your leader should be counselling you on an almost DAILY basis. The Army has gotten into a paperwork driven force, and there is so much focus on the counseling FORM that many NCOs have forgotten to actually talk to and develop their Soldiers, except for that mandatory one meeting a month (which still doesn't always happen).

Response by Maj John Bell made Dec 24 at 2018 2:50 AM

2018-12-24T02:50:32-05:00

When threatened with inane administrative or punitive action, my normal course of action was to ask the person to put it in writing and put it in my Officer's record book. It had an automatic review by the next higher officer in the chain of command.

My wife once told the XO's wife that I didn't want to go to a unit wide officers' call. Next day I was called into the XO's office and dressed down like the recruit who won't get off the bus at the recruit depot. Among the things I was told, he ordered me not to discuss the dressing down with my wife, or to tell her to be circumspect with what she tells the XO's wife.

I listened then said.
"1) I recognize that attendance is mandatory. I told my wife I wasn't looking forward to the officer's call. I did not say I was not going.
2) You can order me to like something all you want, it is not going to make me like it.. I don't like asparagus and you can order me to like it until you are blue in the face, that doesn't change the fact that I don't like asparagus. I will attend in the spirit intended and have no intention of acting like a petulant child. I've never wanted to go to an officer's call.
3) I am not a staff officer, I am a unit commander, and unless this was coming from the CO, it was nothing more than unasked for advice.
4) No matter what, your authority does not extend into my marriage. So stay in your lane."

He threatened to charge me. I said wait here... I'll go get the charge sheet. I gave him the charge sheet then stepped in to discuss the conversation with the CO; who it turns out didn't want to go to the Officer's call either.

If you are going to buck authority... be DAMNED sure you are right, strong enough to take it, and don't back down until the orders you are given are legal and within the scope of the person giving them.

Response by CPL Sarah Verity made Dec 24 at 2018 3:16 PM

2018-12-24T15:16:02-05:00

No, this isn't normal unless someone gave you a verbal order to attend, then it's not voluntary. You seem to be describing PLDC. I'm confused on what "training" this is. I had mock boards with my NCOs who agreed to hold them when I asked for help. If I didn't show up, of course they'd be upset. As for your friend, a mock board (and any board) is close doors so you don't know what really went on, only what your friend said happened. If they did submit UCMJ action for shaking at a mock board JAG would throw it out. I was sent to JAG after being "late" once because of a shift change made without my knowledge. JAG through it out because it was an "anomaly" (rare occurrence, like seeing an eclipse) and it was such a substantially minor issue that no judge would waste their time on it. Plus my commanders did not directly notify me of a shift change. they claimed an NCO was a "witness to saying to notification was made" but no NCO claimed to be the one to actually give notification. I simply stated there was no notification and JAG agreed because no NCO ever came forward saying that they had directly notified me of the change. NCOs do stupid shit to scare you, it's a sign of bad leadership. A real leader guides their soldier in the direction the soldier desires, therefore allowing the soldier to trust and respect those that are helping lead them and get them where they want to be in life. Happy soldiers make happy sergeants. That's good leadership. Not standing around threatening people.

Response by CPL Sarah Verity made Dec 24 at 2018 3:16 PM

2018-12-24T15:16:50-05:00

You can request a change of unit. If I were you, I would.

Response by SSG Lenzie Bailey made Dec 25 at 2018 2:19 AM

2018-12-25T02:19:45-05:00

My question is when did soldiers start informing NCO'S on what they were or were not going to be doing?? If you were sick then go on sick call. But sounds like that wasn't the case.