Is it our fault as NCOs when a soldier doesn’t develop?

2024-04-28T03:42:59-04:00

We have a soldier who has a bad attitude and a bad mindset, we have tried everything in the book to try to develop the soldier from from having these bad qualities, but nothing has worked and when I say everything I mean everything such as counseling, corrective training, one on one talks, getting higher involved and just about every other way in the book. The issue is the soldier doesn’t want to change and get better. Our 1sg just recently told us it’s our fault as ncos. That made us a little mad because we put so much work into this soldier we will never give up on the soldier but, the soldier doesn’t care. My question is, is our 1sg right it our fault as ncos in a situation like this even tho we tried everything?

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 28 at 2024 4:06 AM

2024-04-28T04:06:21-04:00

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." All you can do is show him the way, then it it each person's choice if they want to do what is right, expected. Sounds to me like your 1SG is coming up short. I have found sometimes in cases such as this, something drastic needs to be done. If the behavior is something that warrants UCMJ action, then maybe this is what needs to be done. When faces with legal action, sometimes this "wakes them up". You don't need to compromise the good of the unit for this one person.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 28 at 2024 8:00 AM

2024-04-28T08:00:39-04:00

I would suggest, asking your 1SG for specifics in guidance they feel would be effective in guiding the SM to a better place.

If the 1SG can only give you "Just fix it" or "You figure it out" or "That's your job, I'm the 1SG" Then you may have an issue.

If the SM's 1st line supervisor through platoon leader feels all has been done to guide this SM to be a useful and effective part of the unit.... the Platoon sergeant and Platoon leader should be taking this up with the commander with a request for bar to reenlistment, and administrative separation.

Response by SPC Kenneth Berry made Apr 28 at 2024 8:21 AM

2024-04-28T08:21:00-04:00

As they say," You can't change someone unless they want to change." No matter what you try. Question I have for you is " Have you asked him what the problem is and does he really want to be in the service." To me it sounds like he wants out but to afraid to say it, wants you to do it for him.To not change is like saying I don't care.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Apr 28 at 2024 8:46 AM

2024-04-28T08:46:25-04:00

I once had an irredeemable Soldier. It was to the point where my section spent more time supervising and correcting this Soldier's work then he spent actually working - having him in my section COST me productivity - and this was while deployed.

At the time, I was the NCOIC, a SFC with 12 years TIS, 2 years TIG, and about 5 years experience as a PSG. I was not new to the "leadership game.". Finally at my wits end, I went to my 1SG to ask for any advice, tips, or tricks. I had exhausted my tools and was asking for advice My combat arms 1SG sneered at the incompetence of my MI NCO skills and said that if problem Soldier was REALLY a net negative, 1SG would take him off my hands and put him to work. 1SG would show this Soldier what a REAL NCO could do.

So, problem Soldier was shifted out of my section and put in Company HQ. I went on leave two weeks later. When I came back from leave, problem Soldier was back in my section. 1SG had given up and re-assigned him back the day after I left.

Some Soldiers can't be helped.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2024 11:52 AM

2024-04-28T11:52:35-04:00

Your 1SG is lazy. He is falling back on the old axiom "there are no bad Soldiers, only bad leaders."
It's lazy, because it's not 100% true, and your 1SG should have learned that as a SGT or SSG.

Most times an NCO can fix a bad Soldier in a few months.
But occasionally you get a problem Soldier who just dedicates 100% of everything he has into not getting better.
After you have exhausted every method, the only choice remaining is to impose that bar to reenlistment, (assuming nothing else has happened to warrant an earlier separation), and then find a method to make the Soldier wish like hell he just did the right thing, every day, with minimal impact on your unit and mission.

Response by SPC David C. made Apr 28 at 2024 2:10 PM

2024-04-28T14:10:27-04:00

If you've done everything you can do, short of taking him to the tree line which I personally think should still be an option, then no. The reality is some people just aren't good fits for certain organizations. Not all personalities mesh. The more they push, the more you pull kind of thing. He may be a shit bird in your unit and soldier of the year in another. You can only do what you can, a certain degree of responsibility falls on them. Of course your 1st Sgt isn't gonna want to hear that so good luck with that part.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2024 5:10 PM

2024-04-28T17:10:55-04:00

What your First Sergeant said to you should make you mad. He hasn't personally gotten involved
yet. And after he gets personally involved and there is still no success with the soldier then it's time for the First Sergeant to start doing whatever needs to be done to recommend administrative separation to the Commanding Officer. As a prior supervisor to many junior enlisted I say that there are going to be personnel that cannot be saved. Hopefully thus far you have specifically documented all of your actions by whatever means is appropriate for the Army.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 28 at 2024 7:24 PM

2024-04-28T19:24:48-04:00

Three things to remember:
No. 1 - the 1SG is doing his job. In his role as the senior enlisted soldier in the company, it is his job to ensure that you, the NCOs, are doing your best for your soldiers. I doubt he really believes it is your fault. More likely he is trying to motivate you the same way that you are trying to motivate your sad-sack.
No. 2 - soldiers occasionally appear on the scene seemingly unwilling or unable to adjust or comply but they are very rare. Someone truly unable to adapt is normally spotted in basic training and discharged. So, unless he has been carrying a shit attitude to whole time and his drill sergeants decided to cut him some slack (doubtful), something has probably recently happened and soured him on the army. Talk to his squad mates as well as to him. If you can identify the issue you may be able salvage him.
No. 3 - Remember that this guy is not the only one in your charge, nor is he any more important than the other soldiers in his squad. If you have documented the behavior and done everything within reason to sort it at your level without success, it's time to let your boss handle it. Essentially, if you've exhausted every legitimate avenue open to you, then you've given it your best shot. Pass him up the chain and let the PSG or 1SG give it a try.

Response by CSM William Everroad made Apr 29 at 2024 8:41 AM

2024-04-29T08:41:49-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, Depends on the context that your 1SG is saying, "Its a leadership failure".

I have been known to use that phrase during NCODP, but I always follow it up with context and highlight the Chain of Command and NCO Support Channel's responsibilities in developing Soldiers (underperforming or not).

Development starts at the FLL; which is, I am assuming, you. You coach, train, and mentor. When a Soldier deviates from the expressed expectations, you apply remedial training. If the same thing happens again, you get your leader (SL) involved, who applies even more "creative" training to remedy the deficiencies. If that fails, and it happens again, the PSG steps in. This should be the last "warning", because the next step involves the PL issuing an order to correct the problem. If that fails the PL makes a recommendation to the Commander, who will implement UCMJ action (judicial or nonjudicial, depending on the issue). This is the "zero tolerance" or "most right" way of doing business. If followed, by the time the Commander gets involved, the Soldier has been instructed (and retrained) at least 4 times and given a direct order from a commissioned officer once. This is a slam dunk case where the Commander can use almost every tool the UCMJ has at their disposal and usually results in a problem solved. This satisfies all levels of leadership applying remedial steps to train the Soldier, giving the Soldier ample opportunity to solve the problem before the Command Team gets involved. This aspect is key.

However, certain situations cause the process to be stuck at a given level for several repeated failures to conform. Conversely, sometimes junior leaders get the 1SG involved too early or too late. This causes deviation that the Commander has issues rectifying so it results in "one more chance" scenarios and slowly the underperformance becomes "acceptable" and some of the tools the Commander has become unfeasible in the eyes of the JAG.

If, in your case, you have repeatedly admonished the Soldier without any real administrative action, and this is not the first time your 1SG has heard about this, they are the point of failure. If you have been struggling with this Soldier for months and you have a mountain of paper on them and this is the first the 1SG has heard about it, you are the point of failure.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Apr 29 at 2024 9:48 AM

2024-04-29T09:48:41-04:00

Short answer: maybe.
It's your job to motivate your troubled troop just as it is the 1st Sgt's to motivate you to do better. The 1st Sgt's comment was a knee jerk reaction because they don't want to hear that someone is a lost cause or a lost soul. Don't take it personal. They want all of their Soldiers to succeed and excel. The 1st Sgt may not know the full story.

So take a step back and create a timeline of everything that has gone on in the last 12 months. List incidents and corrective actions made. Provide feedback and results. Take your next Platoon Sgt or equivalent and scheduled a time with the 1st Sgt to gauge what has already been done and what next step options are needed/available. This will show everything you have done and will also paint the picture of how the Solider has been doing in all of this.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2024 2:47 PM

2024-04-29T14:47:55-04:00

I always have passed the buck up. The soldier continues to be in the army because the higher echelon in the chain of command is not executing based on the paper trail I have presented them on a silver platter.

I understand your plight as an E5/SGT. I get it (I was there too). When you get subordinates that realize they made a life changing mistake enlisting and all they are doing is counting the days then supervisors are pretty much screwed.

Leadership needs to remember Readiness and Mission Capability ratios are mathematically improved more when a non performing member is removed from the denominator than they would contribute by meeting the standard and improving the numerator. Plus........ the effort to get that ratio improvement is much less.

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How I would handle it................. Just cover your own rear end with overwhelming documentation. When push comes to shove and there is a poor NCOER then fight it with said documentation.

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What is really unfair is unless illegal activity gets him separated early, his DD414 is still going to read HONORABLE, and likely, unless going for a job that requires a background investigation no one is going to understand the reenlistment codes.

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Apr 30 at 2024 9:12 AM

2024-04-30T09:12:54-04:00

Sadly, not every Soldier is worth saving. Once the Soldier crosses the point of diminishing returns, he must be removed from the service with due haste -- and that's also a part of developing that Soldier. Good luck namesake! AATW!