Is it our mentality that’s wrong or the leadership?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 20:38:01 -0400

I struggle asking questions like this for the simple reason that I hate the new soft army, that being said I’m having problems with my platoon level leadership. I’m in a scout platoon in a infantry BTN, it’s a pretty high speed platoon considering we are in the field training more than we are in garrison. We have been observed by multiple high ranking officers that borderline praised the platoon. But on the inside are NCO’s that do not do any of the training with us, smoke us for asking any kind of questions, degrade everyone who’s not e-5 and above. When I say we I mean other SPC and the pvt’s and we’ve all been here for a long time. I’m 100% for corrective training but what they have been doing is for no reason. We are all squared away and we all carry our own weight. It’s to the point where a lot of the guys are just tired and talk about how there is no way out. I’m worried about the health of my platoon and the soldiers I serve with. We’ve been through a lot together and we’re a rough and tough bunch of joes but. I’m seeing the mental affects on everyone including myself. I don’t have the space to include all examples. Some advice would be great considering I can’t go to my leadership about this.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Sep 17 at 2019 9:20 PM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 21:20:42 -0400

If you aren't leaving anything out, I think your NCOs have lost sight of their mission. The quote by Powell that MSgt Robert "Rock" Aldi begins his response with hits the nails right on the head. It does sound like this is your first unit, though. Please know that what you're experiencing now is not indicative of the entire army. Most NCOs are trying their best, often beating themselves up for any perceived failure they might believe they have demonstrated.

I would definitely talk to your leadership though. Start with your low level NCOs and work up the chain as necessary. They may not understand exactly what you are experiencing. Perhaps they simply see it differently. Maybe they come from a hard charging background where this is the norm. Sometimes all it takes is a tactful conversation with your leadership to, at a minimum, get clarity, but perhaps, you can start to build towards a different atmosphere.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 17 at 2019 9:28 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 21:28:01 -0400

See MSgt Robert "Rock" Aldi 's response. That's true. If the leadership is as obtuse as you describe, you may have to "go dark". Do what you're told, but don't offer anything in return to force them to see their problem. However, be prepared to learn that the problem is yours. Doubtless, a successful resolution of your problem will involve give and take on both sides.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 17 at 2019 9:33 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 17 Sep 2019 21:33:25 -0400

I have heard the flip side of the coin. Young soldiers who don't want to work hard, look for ways out of a task, think they know everything, and rationalize away the right decision.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Sep 18 at 2019 2:00 AM

CPL Gary Pifer — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 02:00:41 -0400

First of all this is not your concern at your pay grade... Your job is to do what you're told. Why don't you go to a VA hospital and complain about the soft Army to the disabled Vets or to a VA National Cemetery...I heard they are all ears and will listen to any and all complaints. I was in a NG Scout plt...regular guys...fun loving. I was injured in training and did not deploy
..but many in my unit were maimed by IED'S and they killed many in return ...and some suffer TBI..PTSD...scars ...mental illness. What f...ing Soft Army are you talking about. Tough bunch of Joes... they are the ones 6 feet under..or the ones screaming in Mental lock up. You may soon wind up in Iran...so start preparing yourself and not worry about BS and things you can't control or change.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Sep 18 at 2019 2:15 AM

CPL Gary Pifer — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 02:15:30 -0400

Again..
So so sorry for you and your squared away buddies feeling so tired, stressed and unhealthy...in out soft Army.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2019 2:19 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 02:19:56 -0400

I see this in a new SGT, promoted a few months ago. His demeanor changed. He's become cocky. Hands in pockets and barks condecending orders instead of there with his team. He speaks that lower enlisted is lazy and if they complain it's just to avoid work. The rank and idea that SGT=freedom. Its seems to me your leadership is following along but maybe for different reasons.
Your leadership won't listen? Just how far up does this go? Your 1SG won't listen? Your commander won't listen? Have you tried? If you have, then maybe this is by design...they create a culture that empowers NCOs and they feel more involved, powerful and closer. Sounds poisonous for those not in their "clique." If leadership above them won't listen then I would leave. It sucks, but work to find another unit that won't ruin the military idea for you. I've seen that too often around me.
How long have you been there? Long enough for promotion? Maybe soon after you'll get your packet in and match their rank? If you want it to stop, make it your life's purpose. Outrank them. Work to match rank and take the roles from them and then lecture they will not step on your toes and smoke your Joe's, especially for no reason. Then outrank them. Make the changes. Be that change in your environment, be that which your buddies admire and follow. If they can support you instead, or another within your suppressed group, then the toxic leadership won't affect you as harshly. It may seem tough but that's been my drive since 2007 as a Private, there were too many terrible leaders. I didn't want new soldiers to be lead by them and fail, so I sought out to become the better leader. So SPC Private RallyPoint Member let these NCOs be your role model, of who not to become or model after.
And finally, I would drop the idea of this being a "soft Army." We make it what it is. If you want it soft then welcome it, train with it, let everyone hear the excuses and have them weaken physically and mentally. If you hate it though then dont accept it. Be clear and concise. Dont falter. Show strength in making a decision and see it through. We cannot boot a Joe in the chest for them mouthing off and we cannot call soldiers names and ridicule them. Because we are professionals. So act like one and throw that idea away. Lead how you wish to have been led.
Best of luck. Message me if you wish for advice on anything at all going forward. You aren't alone bud.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Sep 18 at 2019 7:46 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 07:46:22 -0400

There's the "carrot", and there's the "stick"...some folks seem to make it into leadership positions not realizing if all you do is beat the mule, eventually he gives out. Here's my advice, for what it's worth: put things in your "leadership bag"-some are good, and some are bad. Eventually, you'll be the leader-put the good things you've collected to use, and reject the bad things you've seen that don't work. In the meantime, try and realize that much of this is probably the result of too many years of stifling leaders' individual autonomy, imposing "cookie cutter" solutions, and attempting to accommodate everyone without fulfilling anyone. It happens out here too my friend...wish I could say it was an isolated problem.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2019 8:29 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:29:19 -0400

I’m sure if enough of the platoon submitted complaints against the NCO’s not being present for training to the 1SG, especially in an Infantry Battalion, that said 1SG would take a closer look at the backbone of their formation. You and your peers asking questions is 100% the right answer so long as it’s done in a tactful manner and I’d advise those NCO’s to read their leadership ADP’s to correct themselves. I also advise you to read them as well since you’ll be a leader of soldiers in the future.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2019 10:20 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:20:13 -0400

The biggest thing I see is, and I'm being honest, is one side of the story. Not saying you are incorrect, just that I am only seeing one side of the coin. That being said, here are my suggestions:

If everything you say is 100% accurate, you can do one or all or any combination:
1) Start with your Team Leaders and/or Squad Leaders. Address the issues and concerns with them to give them the opportunity to push this up and address it with Platoon Leadership
2) Every single PVT and SPC in the Platoon, come together and ask to speak with your PSG and PL without any other NCOs present so as to vent your concerns, issues, etc. and let them take care of the problem (if they are unaware).
3)Every single PVT and SPC in the Platoon, come together and ask to speak with your 1SG so as to vent your concerns, issues, etc. and let them take care of the problem (if they are unaware).
4) Every single PVT and SPC in the Platoon, come together and ask to speak with your Commander so as to vent your concerns, issues, etc. and let them take care of the problem (if they are unaware).

The line between being a toxic leader and being a hard cased/demanding leader can be a very fine line and can be perceived different by each individual. Another thing I would suggest is before you do any one of those steps, get with all the PVTs and SPCs in the platoon and have them list every single act of toxicity that they have personally witness AND experienced. Have all those statements ready (make copies) when you talk with what ever leadership you talk with. You all will have to stand together to be heard. If one person is the spokesman, then chances are they may not be taken as seriously as a group of 20 Joes standing in the office together with the CDR/1SG, etc...

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Sep 18 at 2019 12:41 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 12:41:58 -0400

Wish your profile has a little more information. Can't really tell if you're active or reserve component. Either way, Sergeants also train Sergeants. You probably should bring the problems you see to your First Sergeant or CSM. These senior NCOs have open door time and should listen to a respectful and complete with examples statement of the problem. They are charged with training all the Soldiers in your unit. May result in some changes in leadership style.

Response by 2d Lt Cinthia W. made Sep 18 at 2019 2:50 PM

2d Lt Cinthia W. — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 14:50:30 -0400

One thing that I would consider in this situation too is that we are in the midst of a generational change within the services. The "old school" mentality/generation is going out the door while more of the "younger generation" comes in. With that being said, this ideology of a "softer military" versus a "hard ass" military isn't that the military is a bunch of sissies now. Really, it means that we are adapting to a different way to handle situations rather than handling or looking at it as "suck it up buttercup".

I agree that the issue starts with leadership here; but have you tried to provide upward feedback to your NCOs and SNCOs? Document in an Memorandum or even email that you would like to sit down with your direct supervisor and address some items of concern. Provide them CONSTRUCTIVE feedback and most of all, if you are talking about problems make sure you bring up logical solutions to the issues. Again, document these things because if you need to break Chain of Command, you can at least cover yourself with recorded proof that you made multiple attempts to have a discussion, what items you discussed (and what your NCO discussed).

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Sep 19 at 2019 3:04 AM

SSG Mark Matteson — Thu, 19 Sep 2019 03:04:35 -0400

What a shame. At least you know what kind of an NCO you will become. Even bad leaders are still training in some sort.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2019 5:37 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Sep 2019 05:37:10 -0400

AR 600-20; read it, learn it. Corrective training IS NOT smoke sessions. Your NCOs are there to train you properly; that means that you most certainly can, and should ask questions. NCOs must train with their Soldiers at every event (unless they have approval not to from 1SG or CO). Use your resources: EO, IG, Open door policy. No one, not even if there was a CSM or GEN of the universe, is above Army Regulations. You must go to your leadership and address any issues that may need fixing (try to keep it at the lowest level). Every leader has a leader above him or her, remember that. Read the regulations, ADPs, ADRPs, etc; or not, the enjoyment of your military career depends on you (for the most part).