Is it really that important to make Distinguished Honor Grad, Commandant's List, etc., in the NCOES?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:53:05 -0500

Some people in my class don't think it's that important, however I have been told that it's something that could potentially get you selected for SSG-CSM over your peers if you do that well in the NCOES, from WLC to USASMA.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 12:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:57:28 -0500

It could be what separates you from other NCOs. Personally, I've never been distinguished honor grad in any of my NCOES schools (WLC thru SLC) but that doesn't mean I won't ever be selected to my next rank. Perhaps if you do go above and beyond your peers, you will reach it faster than me. People notice that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 12:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:58:00 -0500

It will reflect greatly on you 1059, which are viewable for Senior Enlisted advancement. Having any if not all of those are for sure something that separates you from your peer group. With the way that the Military is going, they are only wanting to keep the best and brightest.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 1:46 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:46:43 -0500

For what I been told yes. I would like to see the input of a CSM/SGM that has sat on the selection boards.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 22 at 2014 5:20 PM

SFC James Baber — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:20:49 -0500

In the survival of the fittest environment of RIF, it may have some type of effect, but I had honor grad, commandant's list, class leader for many NCOES and other military education classes or courses I attended during my career, and other than an attaboy from command or unit, it never really did anything for my career that I know of. I got various certificates from the schools or courses, but other than going into my "I Love me" book, it didn't amount to a whole lot from branch or DA.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Jan 23 at 2014 7:40 AM

CPT Mike M. — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:40:50 -0500

Everyone loves a winner.  You should always strive to do your best.  I'd say don't worry so much about the future and do it for you.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2014 7:41 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 07:41:30 -0500

Honestly, the simplest answer is yes.  Go to HRC's website, search enlisted promotions, look at the active duty senior enlisted promotion boards section, and read the board AARs.  One thing that is consistently highlighted is how much civilian degree completion and exceeding course standards in NCOES sets you apart from your peers in a positive way.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 1:05 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 13:05:31 -0500

In my personal opinion, I believe demonstrating excellence amongst your peers in the NCOES environment holds weight when boards are reviewing your file. If you had to chose between a group of people for promotion, having that distinction helps separate that Soldier from the pack. I was the DHG for my ALC course and I firmly believe it helped as I was selected in the secondary zone in my first look for SFC. My NCOERs were well written and gave a clear picture of my accomplishments and abilities. I've never been a PT stud, but I'm always a Expert at the range. I don't have a degree but I have college hours equivalent to an Associate's. I have multiple military education courses as well.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Jan 27 at 2014 6:25 PM

CSM Mike Maynard — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:25:58 -0500

At each NCOES there are numerous awards a Soldier can earn - High APFT, Commandant's List, Leadership Grad, Distinguished Honor Graduate, Research Paper Awardee, etc.<div><br></div><div>Less than 25% of each class will excel and earn some type of recognition.</div><div><br></div><div>I have to believe that those folks who earn some type of honors set a goal, prepared and then disciplined themselves to achieve one of those honors - I can't believe it is just luck, it is hard work.</div><div><br></div><div>That means they invested the extra time in their career and made themselves better, their unit better and the Army better.</div><div><br></div><div>I say we have to reward them for that - hence, the additional column on the ERB to help the board panel members more easily identify those folks who earn honors at NCOES. Sometimes stuff gets buried on the 1059s and it could be missed.</div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 6:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:34:28 -0500

<p>I agree with what the other NCO's have written here and also wanted you to think about another contributing factor...</p><p>Do you think these Soldiers are saying this in order to make it seem as if they don't care? I found in ALC that a lot of people pretended they didn't care so they didn't lose "cool points" if they didn't make the cut. </p>

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 6:35 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 18:35:25 -0500

Bottom Line:  Do your best at each and every school you attend (and current and future assignments, for that matter).  If Commandant's List is an option - you should aim for it.  In fact - aim for Honor Graduate at each course.  Exceeding Course Standards is NEVER a bad thing…and each 1059 is reviewed when it comes time for promotions. (At least briefly)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 3:08 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:08:16 -0500

I do believe it's important to attain the distinction of DHG or CL during NCOES. These distinctions send a strong message to senior NCOs on DA Centralized Boards. It will separate you from your peers. You should always strive for excellence at every pit-stop throughout your career. Whether it be NCOES, civilian education, or SSD courses, do your very best. 

Response by SSG Dave Rogers made Mar 5 at 2014 3:29 PM

SSG Dave Rogers — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:29:09 -0500

It is important and not just for promotion. When I was in Germany, I was assigned to a unit, and originally was assigned to a outline unit, when the commander found that not only did I attend additional training, but was a honor grad in a couple of programs, I was moved to HQ command to work in a higher position and office. I got to work on a level that at the time I was not ranked for, in a higher position. Commanders want the best working at HQ, at least when I was in. The higher responsibility translate well on a resume. But also when applying for a job when you are out, though many can not understand what a Property Book Officer Course is, they do understand Honor Grad.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 30 at 2014 1:59 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:59:38 -0400

It really depends on your overall record and MOS...NCOES awards/achievements are not unilateral centralized promotion board factors, but they can put an individual record over the top of another if all other factors were similar.<br><br>Yes, like others have stated, you should always strive for these achievements because you should always do your best...should 4-weeks out of a 12-month rating period make or break a promotion potential?  Not at all.  If one does not achieve top 20% or greater, don't dwell on this, but do more in other areas, based on DA PAM 600-25.<br><br>Note:  I have never earned NCOES commendations, but I would like to during the Sergeants Major Course, and have been selected for promotion in each first look in the secondary zone...that's why I say it depends on your MOS and overall record.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 7:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:54:41 -0400

Some of the responses already nailed it, that giving best / doing good definitely doesn't hurt. On the other hand I personally only put so much faith into. I just graduated ALC and its an absolutely broken system. No standards as far as how you are getting taught whatsoever. And that portion is just straight luck. You had some platoons with almost half of the guys on commandant s list while you had also platoons like mine where the instructor didn't do anything for us and not one person made it. I am not taking anything away from the guys who did get recognized for there accomplishments, but on the other hand was it really just them putting way more time and effort in it period or was it maybe a good mixture of everything. ?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 7:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:59:12 -0400

While I agree with a lot of the things stated here, I have to be honest and say that me getting DHG at my WLC class hasn't really done much. Yes I'm proud of my achievement but it's not like you will magically get that next promotion just for having it. Some units give out AAM's for that stuff I know but that's about it. Also worth an extra 10 promo points. It's all up to what your Officers/NCO's think of it. In my unit the Battalion Commander mentioned "One of our soldiers got DHG at WLC so Good Job" and that was it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 8:45 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:45:07 -0400

Anything less than your best is a waste of time. The way I look at it...any training I receive from the army is not for me, it's for the troops I will be charged with leading. They deserve the best I can give.  

Response by SFC Lamont Womack made Mar 30 at 2014 9:24 PM

SFC Lamont Womack — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:24:09 -0400

These things should be important but sometimes the system does not work. This is one thing that I hate about the Army. I had a Commandant at one of my leadership courses who thought PT was the most important thing in the Army. In order to be eligible for any type of awards you had to score a 240 on your APFT (80 points in every event) regardless of the GPA you had in the course. So the Honor Grads in my course actually had the lowest averages in the entire class. We had Soldiers with 100 and 99 averages not be honor grad because they could not score 80 points on their run. This made no sense to me but you got to love how "leaders" make their preferences "standards". 

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Mar 31 at 2014 11:31 AM

1SG Eric Rice — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:31:12 -0400

Achieving one of the top 20% spots in NCOES can substantially help your career. That being said it also depends on what the criteria for the Board is for your particualr CMF. Each year the Regimental CSM for each proponent publishes board guidence for the members to follow. Sometimes that inlcudes criteria for selection to the next rank, education, and other factors they see are important. Bottom line up front....always try to achieve the top spot and you can never go wrong. Don't just do the minimum and expect to excell.

SFC Rice

Response by MSG Sean Milhauser made Apr 2 at 2014 10:58 PM

MSG Sean Milhauser — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 22:58:02 -0400

It can absolutely be seen as a "discriminator" when being looked at during a promotion selection board. Depending on your CMF (Career Management Field) or MOS, the pyramid at the top gets really really small. If your records are getting voted against another NCO's record for one promotion slot, it could very well come down to one difference between your records and the other NCO's records. Other leaders here have made spot-on recommendations: strive to be the best at any schools or training you attend.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 8:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:28:33 -0400

It definitely does not hurt

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 9:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:12:44 -0400

I would always try my best no matter what NCOES attending. Though I believe your 1059 is important I wouldn't bank on that getting you selected for promotion at a centralized promotion board though graduating with honors can't hurt. I would put more focus on Job Title and performance.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 9:47 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:47:31 -0400

As has been said YES! if it wasn't important in the grand scheme of things then the honors wouldn't exist. I look at it like this: For my MOS there are 4 classes a year for ALC which means there are only going to be 4 distinguished honor graduates per year, (if every class has one), my SLC there are roughly 40 classes per year and the same would apply there. If one were to attain distinguished honor grad in both then that will definitely set you above your peers when being considered for promotion to SFC and MSG. The Army went the extra mile to add the ACH column (achievements) next to the schools to allow for any honors earned, to be listed there. Why would they do that? Simple, now the board doesn't have to even look at your 1059's to see that you were one of only 4 (in the ALC class) in a year to distinguish yourself from the rest of the Soldiers in your MOS.

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Apr 16 at 2014 3:24 PM

CW2 Geoff Lachance — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:24:34 -0400

When I attended BNOC and ANOC 1983 -1985. I don't think they even call it that anymore! During Basic I did not excel above any of the other members. Graduated in the middle of the class. Written on the wall at the head of the classroom was the following: "Nothing worthwhile has ever been achieved without diligent endeavor, some pain and constant application of ambition." Those words were an inspiration to me as I thought of all those throughout the past wars that were examples of that. When I entered Advanced, I applied myself and to my surprise graduated Distinguished graduate. I cannot express more how that one event catapulted my career.

Response by SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL made Apr 16 at 2014 3:45 PM

SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:45:16 -0400

Yes it is important. It should be one of goals before going! Being selected for an award while attending an NCOES school will set you apart from your peers when you are being look at for promotion. This will send a strong message to the board. For example, I was selected for the Distinguished Leadership Award while I was in SLC as a SSG. The board members know that only 1 Soldier per class receives that award. On my first look, I was selected for SFC. Of course, I did other things like college, Platoon Sergeant and Drill Sergeant. Everything plays a factor. Just remember, do whatever you can to set yourself apart from the crowd. Hard work and dedication will pay off.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 4:40 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:40:17 -0400

SGT Starnater,

Sufficient answers have been provided to your question. I'll add my two cents and provide a slightly different perspective.

While achieving an academic standing setting you up for honor in a course is a discriminator for future boards, it may not be the reason for success in the future. The honor received is the tangible result of hard work and dedication to learning your craft and performing at a level beyond your peers. However, it is the intangible quality of the Soldier that leads them to consistently achieve these ratings. Therefore, the real discriminator is your capability as a Soldier and a Leader. We control outcomes in our lives, documents do not.

Very Respectfully,

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 5:12 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:12:08 -0400

Look at the number of 1SG & CSMs that have graduated as D/HG or CL and the answer should be clear.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 5:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:34:50 -0400

I would recommend anyone who questions this to self-assess. Do you want to be in the middle of the pack? Or do you want to finish strong, or in the top? The competition to making D/HG is extremely similar to the competition for promotion to SGM/CSM. You are putting your abilities against your peers. Only the most squared away, with the potential to rise to the top, are selected. It's rarely only about what you have done as much as it is what you have the potential to do. Your academic record while attending an NCOES is a large part of the resume that is looked at when being considered for SGM. It tells people what you CAN do in an academic or intellectual capacity in comparison to your peers.SGM/CSM is highly academic and intellectual in nature. Your poise, writing and speaking ability, intellectual capacity, and ability to process a lot of information quickly are the skills relied on in those positions.

Would you be considered for hiring into senior management if you're competing with a guy who graduated magna/suma/cum laude and you sqeaked by with a 2.7 gpa?

Nope. Reach for the top and that's where you'll find yourself.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 5:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:56:18 -0400

NCOES is not a competition with your peers but with yourself.  If you are not there to do your best you should not be there.  Also this does not stop at NCOES schools this should be applied to every thing you do in life in and out of the Military. Nobody should be okay with squeaking by, you should want to be the best that you can be. Do you want to be an okay parent or one that your children and others respect?

Response by SGM Edward Lake made Apr 16 at 2014 7:12 PM

SGM Edward Lake — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:12:12 -0400

SGM Edward Lake, Bouckville, ny

Well I’m here to tell you I would never discourage anyone
from trying to be the #1 solider in everything they do. I was promoted to E09
in 17 years and never once made honor grad of commandants list in any of my
NCOES. With that said where I excelled was the day to day job of being a
solider I always got above average NCOER's and expert on weapons High scores on
APFT and collage. And now that I’m retired for 5 years it’s been my experience that
the glowing accolades of dean’s list etc. really don’t weigh that much as in
the business world the main concern is how you can perform your day to day duties
to make the company money. Not discouraging you or anyone else from trying to
max out their takes bit I think the day to day performance weighs in more than
anything

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 9:20 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:20:58 -0400

Why would you not want to? I guess that is how I see it.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 21 at 2014 11:15 AM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:15:38 -0400

I will answer this way:<div>All other things being equal, It may end up being a selective criteria. </div><div><br></div><div>I wouldn't beat myself up if it didn't happen, but I would shoot for it. As the army shrinks, you want to stand out (in a good way!) from the crowd. </div>

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made May 5 at 2014 8:15 PM

SFC Stephen Hester — Mon, 05 May 2014 20:15:22 -0400

I think it is important to strive for these honors because it's important to set yourself apart from your peers. Distinguished Honor Grad, Honor Grad, Commandant's List exemplify the Army Values and mean that the Soldier went above and beyond what was required.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2014 3:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Jun 2014 15:43:57 -0400

When it comes to selection for SFC/MSG/SGM it is extremely competitive. With that said you need to do everything in your power to stand out among the rest. The board can tell who strives to be at the top of their class. If you are getting 1/1 ratings on every NCOER but don't finish in the top 20% of your NCOES class then doesn't that send mixed message to the board?

Response by CSM Guy R. Niles made Sep 10 at 2014 5:06 PM

CSM Guy R. Niles — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 17:06:34 -0400

Jim, not withstanding what you've been told on the subject, what do you believe? I was honor Grad in PNCOC, Distinguished Grad in PLC (now both combined first as PLDC, now WLC), Honor Grad in ANCOC (Now SLC), etc.... If you do not thing a Centralized Promotion Board (for SFC. MSG, and SGM) Member does not pay attention to that, think again! And the Semi-Centralized (Unit) Promotion Boards, same scenario! You stand out!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 5:56 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 17:56:11 -0400

If you're not first, you're last!

All kidding aside, everything that you can do to better than your peers will set you up for success. I'm if doing it, I'm in it to win it.

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made May 1 at 2015 1:44 PM

SFC Steven Harvey — Fri, 01 May 2015 13:44:30 -0400

It's obviously important but the Selection Boards only give your +/- based on Education, APFT HT/WT, etc.

NCOERs give you your hard numerical score, if you're a 3 or 4 in a 1-6 range getting DHG in every NCOES school won't matter. However if you're a 5 or 6 then it's going to be used as a tie breaker. Being a 5+ all things being equal and there are 20 SSGs that are 5+ you having CL, Leadership or DHG would put you above your peers.

I'd advise every SSG to look at the DA Secretariats Board score sheet to get an understanding of how they wil ultimately be graded. With the Army downsizing I would strive for the best I could get.

Also you can most definately get CL and not Exceed the Standards in NCOES if the class is small. 20% could just be the DHG, HG and the Leadership Awardee.

Response by SFC Thomas Butler made Dec 3 at 2016 4:09 PM

SFC Thomas Butler — Sat, 03 Dec 2016 16:09:14 -0500

Well, one thing to remember is that for SPC and SGT, making the Cmdts List, DHG or earning the leadership award mean additional promotion points. And it is annotated in ATRRS as well as on the Soldiers 1059.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Jan 29 at 2017 6:28 AM

CSM Andrew Perrault — Sun, 29 Jan 2017 06:28:17 -0500

My 2 cents..... It certainly won't hurt....but many do it for the wrong reasons. In my view taking the knowledge gained, sharing, and applying it in your everyday tasks in leading Soldiers while performing those hard leadership positions is what's important.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Aug 19 at 2017 11:09 AM

CSM Andrew Perrault — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:09:20 -0400

It darn sure won't hurt your career and it speaks volumes of what type of NCO you are. Having said all that focus more on the learning part and application once you get back to your unit.....that's where it will really count share the knowledge gained. If you're doing your best awards will come. The other thing I would recommend is foster team work while you're there at school and help others.......Best of luck to you....