Is it undermining NCOs if a soldier straight-up disrespects NCOs just before ETS, but the unit won't push for chapter or UMCJ?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:35:57 -0400

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2016 5:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:40:00 -0400

Really? #ComeOnSarge

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 16 at 2016 5:42 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:42:38 -0400

Ask yourself: if we had to implement stop-loss tomorrow, would you want this person on your team? If no, take action.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2016 5:45 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:45:48 -0400

I would say that it doesn't matter if a soldier's ets is next week or 4 years away. If the misconduct is severe enough that it warrants ucmj action, then it should be pursued. Not pursuing action not only undermines the NCO'S involved, but it also undermines the authority of the unit's leadership. But that's just my opinion.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2016 5:48 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:48:57 -0400

why waste the time, money and paper work on anything, obviousley this sb needs to go, if this sm is under you and your leaders agree, put this sb on clean up detail, dont take his/hers disrespect personally, they are short time and dont care, but if it goes beyond that, then you have an issue

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2016 5:53 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:53:07 -0400

Do you supervise the Soldier? That makes a difference. If not, get with Soldiers leadership and figure out how to make his/her time left worthwhile.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 16 at 2016 6:01 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:01:51 -0400

If this soldier is being disruptive and disrespectful it would undermining if the unit does nothing, provided the individual is guilty. I recommend that whomever the supervisor and those being disrespected are collectively approach the 1SG and the Co. If that does not work you ask for an audience with teh CSM and BN Co. This soldier should be treated the same as any other in the unit.

Response by SFC Wade W. made Apr 16 at 2016 6:03 PM

SFC Wade W. — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:03:46 -0400

Yes, not just that NCO but all NCO's. That sets a horrible precedent for the chain of command. By allowing this behavior, no matter the status of the NCO, they have basically said "we will not support the NCO's of this unit". Not good.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Apr 16 at 2016 6:10 PM

MAJ David Vermillion — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:10:09 -0400

Yes. This should never be tolerated, sounds like a commander who decides to let it go and do nothing. This is an example of his lack of respect for authority.

Response by SGT Jonathon Caldwell made Apr 16 at 2016 6:12 PM

SGT Jonathon Caldwell — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:12:11 -0400

Push for the UCMJ. Take their time and their money/rank. 45 and 45 would work. If sm is to start clearing while under UCMJ, that's fine. Clear during normal duty hours and the go to extra duty. Sm can finish and final out day after art 15's punishment is complete. Gonna suck going back to civilian world broke, but if that's the path sm is choosing tough shit. You can not let this happen in your unit. Other sm's not getting out look at it ad though they can get away with it. If the COC won't go for art 15 then they are ate up. Trying to chapter sm could prolong the stay. Also unit should place a bar to reenlist so said sm's reenlistment code is not that of a normal sm with an honorable discharge.

Response by CPT Cedric Rice made Apr 16 at 2016 6:12 PM

CPT Cedric Rice — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:12:22 -0400

yes it is...if we expect NCO's to do their jobs we should support them...unless the NCO was the cause of the problem

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2016 6:19 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:19:25 -0400

If you allow it to happen, if you don't address the behavior and or correct it. The a its your fault.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 16 at 2016 7:01 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:01:37 -0400

OK sounds like a "TTT" (Tupperware the Turd) situation. We'd get those all the time. If your SEL has no clue about the thresholds and actions that get or don't get supported, then you have toxic leadership that is sticking you with lid duty. There is value to path of least resistance so long as it doesn't infect the rest of the organization. So isolating is usually the best tactic knowing that the SM really doesn't care about what anyone thinks or cares about. BTW, it really doesn't take much for a Skipper's Mast and the restrictions that get laid on. If restrictions don't work, the brig typically does. The SM just needs to know there's a range of codes that can apply to his DD-214 which will follow him throughout his life. How bad does he want a nasty? I never gave anything but awarded what was earned. So if the SM earned an "other than", I had no problem signing off on it. Lots of post service money evaporates.

Response by SGT Paul Mackay made Apr 16 at 2016 7:09 PM

SGT Paul Mackay — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:09:08 -0400

yes

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Apr 16 at 2016 7:16 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:16:13 -0400

I'm going to say yes. The soldier should be put through a court-martial still.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Apr 16 at 2016 7:31 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:31:14 -0400

I agree with most everyone else. If you let it go, there will be more. But if you bring this to the table and slam his ass with it, I can guarantee the next Soldier who wants to try it will think four times and realize it's best to just leave. Almost all Soldiers come in as E1, there is nothing saying you cannot leave as an E1 again.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 16 at 2016 7:31 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:31:21 -0400

When leaders are unwilling/unable to appropriately discipline offenders, they set new standards.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 16 at 2016 8:03 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:03:50 -0400

It's like creating open season on NCO's within X days of ETS. I don't care if it on his way off base for the last time he disrespects a NCO. Run him to ground. Charge him and let him think about his conduct in the brig.

Response by Sgt Vernon Fulmer made Apr 16 at 2016 8:07 PM

Sgt Vernon Fulmer — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:07:38 -0400

Honestly, it's just going to be a waste of time and resources. Separate the solider from the platoon. By doing this, there is no longer a negative influence that might be picked up by other soldiers.

Response by CW3 Ronald Helton made Apr 16 at 2016 8:20 PM

CW3 Ronald Helton — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:20:22 -0400

I guess I would need more details to answer intelligibly, are we talking about a one time or an everyday occurrence. Just like any offence there are steps that take place, including counseling before jumping into Court Martial or Article 15. I agree that disrespect needs to be stopped, but let cooler heads prevail.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2016 8:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:57:09 -0400

No that is the commander choosing to cut his loss with this soldier and spend there time with soldiers that are going to stay in the army.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Apr 16 at 2016 9:29 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:29:39 -0400

Yes.

Response by SrA Roy Cooper made Apr 16 at 2016 9:29 PM

SrA Roy Cooper — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:29:41 -0400

To be honest, the way you asked the question, it sounds to me that the Unit in question is disrespecting it's NCO's just as much if not more than the soldier in question. If they are turning a COMPLETE blind eye to what he is saying and/or doing. I'm not saying that the UCMJ has to be used if it's not that severe. But to allow it to go unpunished. What is that teaching younger troops? I heard it over and over again and again in basic training. Don't lose your military bearings. Which in all sense mean, keep your cool, stay calm, always be respectful, don't rush in unprepared, look up to authority, help up those under you, learn from example and be the example.

Response by SSG Scott McIntyre made Apr 16 at 2016 9:43 PM

SSG Scott McIntyre — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:43:26 -0400

SGT Love, what is the standard that you want to set in your organization and within your span of influence? It makes no difference if the Soldier is getting out soon or not. Blatant and deliberate misconduct must be met with an equal and substantial course of action in an effort to correct the behavior of the individual. If you allow this type of behavior to occur it will decay the good order and discipline of your organization. Many Soldier that have "short timers syndrome" believe for some reason (probably barracks lawyers) that they are unable to recieve UCMJ or be involuntarily separated under other than honorable conditions. This is most definitely untrue. Recommend to your chain of command the course of action that you believe is fair and impartial and see it through.

Response by SFC Charles Temm made Apr 16 at 2016 9:50 PM

SFC Charles Temm — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:50:02 -0400

Yes

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2016 12:47 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:47:43 -0400

I have been challenged with this topic a couple times as well. Not necessarily the disrespecting part, the NCO is about to ETS and I loose him months before he is due out. Meaning he does nothing and avoids doing anything in anyway possible causing the team to have to compensate for the lack of participating. The bad thing is the negative attitude in the work area, bad mouthing the Army. Obviously his NCOER will reflect his actions or lack of, does it even affect him? Probably not.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 17 at 2016 8:48 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 08:48:23 -0400

Just because there is only one day remaining in the hunting season, you go hunting with no license and the game warden catches you, should he not give you a ticket?
One day, one week, one month - it doesn't matter. If this person think he/she can get away with it because they're short, they've got another thing coming. Make the system work. There are extensions and maybe others will stop and think. This is a cold slap in the face of the NCO corps.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2016 9:28 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 09:28:32 -0400

It's the 21st century shut the up and move on if your feelings get hurt by lower enlisted. The army is changing from children to adult behaviors. That's why it's constantly changing imaging the civilian sector.

Response by MSG Bo Mikel made Apr 17 at 2016 10:07 AM

MSG Bo Mikel — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:07:36 -0400

Soldiers are a direct reflection of their leadership.... If you treat a joe like he is a piece of shit all the time, he will probably like to tell you off when he pcs's. Some self reflection on your part maybe in order.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2016 10:38 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:38:29 -0400

While preparing for Capt's Mast. try to discern precisely where his disrespect for authority originates( helpful to future leadership). Never allow that conduct to be permitted at anytime. All his friends are watching and can possibly create more problems.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Apr 17 at 2016 10:50 AM

MSgt John McGowan — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:50:11 -0400

SGT it does undeermine the NCO in the unit. Sound like a toxic situation to me. Someone in the unit is causing this and it would be nice to know who. If you are no backed by your unit you have very poor leadership. I have no answer for that. COC gets in the way.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 17 at 2016 5:22 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 17:22:49 -0400

Go to JAG and find a ways for legal pay back and rehabilitation.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2016 12:59 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:59:35 -0400

ETS means nothing if this clown is still belongs to Uncle Sam. He/She might be surprised how fast the ETS can disappear like it never existed. Is it undermining, yes. Is it worse that the NCOs and the Command won't do something about it? There must be more to this story, me'thinks.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 18 at 2016 7:00 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 18 Apr 2016 19:00:39 -0400

Formerly councel the service member accordingly and recommend corrective action or non judicial punishment. As NCOs we must give credit when it's due whether it's positive or negative.

Response by SGT Shahin Shahmir made Apr 19 at 2016 3:08 PM

SGT Shahin Shahmir — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:08:29 -0400

It depends on how the soldier is disrespecting you and whether or not you deserve it.

Response by SSG Jeremy Kohlwes made Apr 19 at 2016 4:50 PM

SSG Jeremy Kohlwes — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:50:41 -0400

Yes it is. That behavior should never be tolerated regardless of circumstances. I have seen more than one Soldier get caught for something just before ETS (urinalysis usually), and even one guy who got a DUI the night before his ETS date. Being disrespectful may not be worthy of being chaptered out, but it is definitely worthy of holding on to him a little longer to give him an ART 15 and to do some extra duty. I would consider that poetic justice, stuck on extra duty all the while thinking about how you could be home and free if you had just kept your mouth shut a little longer.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 10:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:10:14 -0400

Let the Soldier go, it's not worth it. The unit has him or her as a loss to the unit. Why build a packet, go to legal, and do an article 15. The NCOs will have to babysit a soldier who will infect the units moral, possibly do something stupid that will escalate this issue.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 20 at 2016 7:09 AM

SSG Dale London — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:09:15 -0400

Absolutely. Military discipline is never just about the one who breaks the rules. The whole concept of the UCMJ hinges on precedent and example. You don't prosecute a deserter because you're afraid he'll desert again -- you do it to keep others from deserting. Likewise, you don't punish disrespect out of revenge but as a preventative measure for the rest of the unit.
Letting some one-digit-midget take a parting shot and leaving it unanswered sends a message to the whole unit that the command does not support it's NCO's. If left to fester, that unit's readiness and efficiency will begin to decline almost immediately and may eventually render it unready for combat.
Service personnel need to be reminded from time to time that as long as they are in the service they are not free to do or say whatever they like and that they remain subject to the UCMJ right up to the end of their terminal leave.
Watching a buddy get busted and have his ETS postponed involuntarily by a two-week stay in CCF would send a very strong signal indeed.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Apr 20 at 2016 7:27 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:27:11 -0400

This is one I commented on a while back and it opened a big can of worms.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Apr 20 at 2016 7:28 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:28:00 -0400

This is one I commented on a while back and it opened a really big can of worms.

Response by SSG Robert Spina made Apr 20 at 2016 7:32 AM

SSG Robert Spina — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:32:33 -0400

ABSOLUTELY

Response by MSG James McClure made Apr 20 at 2016 8:19 AM

MSG James McClure — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:19:56 -0400

Most Soldiers that act like that usually already have an attitude problem and hence, that's why they are leaving. I usually viewed at "good riddens". Those Soldiers are usually taking advantage of the fact they are leaving and nothing can be done, so they think. Giving the military a middle finger so to speak. You are correct, the military should still impose something on them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 9:22 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:22:06 -0400

Until one second after midnight of the day of their ETS, they are still in the military and subject to UCMJ.

Response by SFC Phillip Wiley made Apr 20 at 2016 9:33 AM

SFC Phillip Wiley — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:33:18 -0400

Would need more information to answer correctly.
Did the SM just get lazy or is s/he being disruptive and a nuisance?
This is a two-way street of respect during ETS being given the time to coordinate and accomplish all tasks that have been set forth. I have felt and seen the failure of commands to give the respect and time needed for the closing of a career.
If it is truly a case of disrespect and not just someone having a hard to screw a SM before s/he goes then do your job and ensure the SM does theirs. It does not matter if the SM has 20 months or 20 hours left. Examples of the extreme http://www.armywriter.com/disrespect-toward-an-nco.htm

Disrespect Toward an NCO Counseling Example

disrespect toward an NCO is incompatible with military service and will not be tolerated...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 9:58 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:58:55 -0400

That is the product of the laziness and disconnection of Leadership. Why let this turd be someone else's problem?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 20 at 2016 9:59 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:59:24 -0400

1st, You have to respect a person before they can disrespect you, otherwise its just talk.
2nd, if the SM in question is a problem, do you want them around any longer then needed? Around to affect others in the unit?
Lastly, they play such games to get a rise, to get attention... acknowledging the "disrespect" reacting to it, makes it real.
Treating it like a fart at the dinner table..everyone knows it happened, but all ignore it, takes the power away from the sender.
All that said, you did not define "disrespect" .or give an example of what you are referring to....
If the SM failed to show up for duty having been tasked to do so.. sure take action before departure.

If he showed up at the required accountability formation but upon being dismissed to go to his ACAP appointment, he offered his opinion"this is BS that I have to show up..FTA" Id remind him, accountability formations, health and welfare checks, checking his ETS actions and status are often times nemours, some times 10 -20 times a day if needed due to inappropriate actions of the SM. On the other hand, of the Sm is doing the right thing, taking care of business in a professional manner to the last day there is only a need for a single accountability formation and check.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 9:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:59:40 -0400

It's sad when units neglect the funamentals like discipline because they're too lazy. Consistently getting the basic things right can make or break a unit and frankly it's not that fucking hard. It's all in black and white 90% of the time.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 10:01 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:01:20 -0400

yes

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 10:01 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:01:49 -0400

It wouldn't be a problem or even a topic of concern if we could still punch them in the throat when they got lippy!

Response by PO1 Lawrence Fuller made Apr 20 at 2016 10:06 AM

PO1 Lawrence Fuller — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:06:39 -0400

It all depends in the situation. Unless major I wouldn't take a honorable discharge and turn it into a dishonorable over a simple problem. The sailor may not have been thinking but as a leader I think outside the box and dishonorable discharge will affect them for years to come. And others sailors would be watching and see my leadership. There are good leaders and bad leaders and as a good leader you think about your juniors sailors if they are not thinking

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 10:23 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:23:36 -0400

Yes it is totality disrespectful and the command should take action. Lets keep in mind that you are legally responsible, accountable and punishable under UCMJ for your action up to 72 hours from the time and date that you ETS.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 10:27 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:27:07 -0400

It's a game. It's an emotional state of mind. Someone messed up and now they need attention
or they have the need to feel good about themselves on the way out , so they push buttons. They do this to get a reaction, stir up emotions, get you away from the Soldiers that matter and are in need of your attention. I'm saying tolerate it, but recognize what's taking place. The Unit Command sees the big picture. This Soldier is at the gate already. No need in wasting unit time, man hours, energy and efforts on someone that's at the gate. The cab is a little slow, but it's coming. No need for UCMJ or Chapter. ETS is approaching. If the Soldiers ETS is a long way off, things can be done to reflect his behavior and it annotated on his DD214. If it's a few weeks out less than three months. Did he ETS already as I'm responding to your post? Recognize what's going on and realize that's the persons way of getting attention. If the Soldier is really out of line, some disciplinarian actions can be taken. Disrespect is disrespect. ETS or not. No your regulations, gather your facts and evidence, use your Chain of Command. I'm sure they have open door still. When I was your rank and wanted something done, I went to the top.

Response by SSG Gerald King made Apr 20 at 2016 10:37 AM

SSG Gerald King — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:37:12 -0400

I was standing outside in the chow line one morning and there was a SP4 in front of me with his hands in his pockets, his jacket unbuttoned and hat cockeyed. I asked him to take his hands out of his pockets, button his jacket and put his hat on straight. His response was: F. You, I got 30 days left in your F...ing army and I work in personnel and have access to your records and can really F..k you up. I responded: First of all you do not have access to my personnel records because they are not kept here, and you are making a threat to an NCO and when I get through with you, you will have 6 months and 30 days in my F..ng Army. Now put your hat on straight, button your jacket and take your hands out of your pockets or I will remove them for you!. He put his hat on straight, buttoned his jacket, took his hands out of his pockets and I guess he decided he was not hungry because he left the chow line. Now, this was back in the old days, doubt if I could get away with that now.

Response by MSgt Dexter Joseph made Apr 20 at 2016 11:06 AM

MSgt Dexter Joseph — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:06:38 -0400

Absolutely it's disrespect. Shame on the unit for not enforcing the UCMJ. You are on active duty until you turn your ID card in on the date your DD 214 states. As far as the soldier that disrespected the NCOs, It's a small world out here and that type of behavior won't get that soldier very far in life.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Apr 20 at 2016 11:19 AM

SSG Byron Hewett — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:19:36 -0400

no because he's going to ETS and won't be an issue any more and why cause the Army to hang on to him longer for UCMJ action than what it would take for him to ETS out of the Army because a bar against re-enlistment can always be put on to his DD214 and his permanent record and why cause your self more pain by keeping him any longer than you need too.

Response by MSG Douglas Tolliver made Apr 20 at 2016 11:37 AM

MSG Douglas Tolliver — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:37:32 -0400

I think it's pretty typical for a Commander to decline to do anything because of the prospect of being rid of the "problem". Many view the UCMJ action as prolonging the pain. I would think that in a serious incident something would be done. I know one former Soldier who got an Article 15 where she was reduced, she didn't show up for extra duty that night (a Friday), and went to the club instead. The following Monday she was getting counseled by the HHD Det SGT and she abruptly left the office. The 1SG stopped her and she started kicking him in the shins. She was charged, a Summary Court Martial was held and she was sentenced to 30 days confinement before being processed out. In the end it's up to the commander. If you're concerned about being undermined just let your troops know that you're not going to tolerate any bad behavior.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Apr 20 at 2016 11:43 AM

Maj Mike Sciales — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:43:36 -0400

Detail him to mow lawns. Whenever we had a bad attitude, we just changed the troop's duty station to lawn mowing or (in winter building painting). Easy to see how much work they did, no supervision required, keeps the PITA away from good troops.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 12:09 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:09:09 -0400

You are still a member of the military and fall under the UCMJ. It sounds like leadership is being lazy in not pursing proper and appropriate actions, instead creating lower standards for others to follow and giving the impression that this kind of behavior is acceptable. What if this person decides to re-enlist again at a later date in their life or go into the guard/reserves?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 12:29 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:29:11 -0400

Leadership weighs the energy and time of punishment versus the benefit to the Army. NCOs can recommend administrative action but ultimately, the Commander makes a decision. We get to live the Army Values and following through with the choices they make.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 1:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:43:57 -0400

My initial gut reaction is old school; take his ass to the wood line!! Make an example of him. I don't care if you're gone tomorrow, you WILL NOT, I say again, WILL NOT show your ass and embarrass the NCO Corps. Not on my watch

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 2:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:48:18 -0400

Then it is the duty of the person who sees this happening to try and use the chain of command (which was done already); then other channels of approach need to be used. IG, CDR of a higher level. Don't let it slip or it will come back and bite you again in the future.

Response by MSgt Darum Danford made Apr 20 at 2016 3:26 PM

MSgt Darum Danford — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:26:24 -0400

You still should have the power to give them paperwork, should you so desire. Discipline is considered rehabilitative and the unit obviously feels that this individual isn't worth the time to rehabilitate, especially right before ETS, especially if it's a problem child for the unit. Not saying that it's right, just the way it is. You spend time on the folks that want to be there and are worth rehabilitation.

Response by SFC Jimmy Hernandez-Benitez made Apr 20 at 2016 4:23 PM

SFC Jimmy Hernandez-Benitez — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:23:30 -0400

Because is the new Army, he can fall under uCMJ the same day of ETS.

Response by SPC(P) Carlos Santini made Apr 20 at 2016 4:55 PM

SPC(P) Carlos Santini — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:55:03 -0400

It really is not worth the fight to be honest. It is easier to just let the shit bag go and forget about him or her. It is undermining a NCO and if it was the old Army you could put hands on him but unfortunately the military has been pussyfooted.

Response by MSgt Raymond Stettner made Apr 20 at 2016 5:08 PM

MSgt Raymond Stettner — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:08:07 -0400

I had a similar situation when I was a TSgt and the individual had an issue with me. On the last day of duty the individual reported for duty 1 hour late and as his Reporting Official it fell to me to do something. So, I called my First Sargent and he told me to paraphrase " the kid is seperating tomorrow, so don't do anything". So when a H.R. person called me for an endorsement I told the person exactly how this person behaved under me. As for the First Shirt I first went to my boss, then we went to the squadron commander. The First Shirt was relived of his duties and returned to his original AFSC. Although it didn't happen to me ever again other NCOIC's in my unit who had similar situations had better results.`

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 5:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:55:36 -0400

This is a catch "22" and I have seen this in TRADDOC units. Sometimes it is just better to let the Soldier leave, whether being chaptered or PCSing. By administering someone UCMJ it will just prolong the process that the Soldier will stay within the Unit. Your most feasible action is to look up 27-10 and administer corrective training/ actions.

Response by Sgt Donald Chalfy made Apr 20 at 2016 7:21 PM

Sgt Donald Chalfy — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:21:03 -0400

Yes.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Apr 20 at 2016 8:18 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:18:19 -0400

I think he should be punished under UMCJ there is no Call for that type of behavior I think something should been a long time ago. when I was in there was no one would have gotten away with that.

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Apr 20 at 2016 9:06 PM

SGT Shawn Schweinberg — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:06:13 -0400

Until your last day they can punish you. What happens is you will not be released until punishment is complete. But most commands don't want do deal with the paperwork and the long talks with they're commanders. It's a lot of crap to punish a person during ETS process.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 9:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:27:02 -0400

Yes it is undermining. Ive been away from active duty for better than 20 years. Ive seen the Army transform into a different type of service all together. Discipline has diminished substantially. Like the saying goes, let it go and the standard has been set. Problem is that we all say the directions come from the tower. Well in many cases the tower has lost sight of its primary objectives. Get the facts together and walk that AR15 through and have it reflect on DD214. Afterall AR15's are not given, they are earned.

Response by MSgt Daniel Harrison made Apr 20 at 2016 10:34 PM

MSgt Daniel Harrison — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:34:32 -0400

I did have this happen to me once. I simply looked him in the eye and said: F**K you! I hope you can find a job. As for the unit passing punishment, I say no; let the loser leave because he's not worth wearing the uniform or the time and effort of processing the extra paperwork to punish him. However, if this person has more than a month to go, I would burn his ass.

Response by SGT Reginald Pippin made Apr 20 at 2016 11:26 PM

SGT Reginald Pippin — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:26:11 -0400

It depends on what that soldier did that is considered disrespectful. It would also have to be a case by case basis. What may come off as disrespectful to one NCO may not be considered disrespectful to the next one.

Response by SGT Philip Keys made Apr 20 at 2016 11:38 PM

SGT Philip Keys — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:38:41 -0400

Just have these guys cut grass or paint rocks; they are causing problems you don't need them around give them the worst details you have available.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Apr 20 at 2016 11:44 PM

SGT Stanley Bass — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:44:15 -0400

No that is a Junior enlisted person, being a punk or wanna be gang member. let em dis respect the NCO, they are are to get a cold hard bite in the behind when they realize the civilian sector is all predator and prey, and they will 95% of the time be the prey

Response by SSG Dean Frame made Apr 21 at 2016 12:18 AM

SSG Dean Frame — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 00:18:28 -0400

It is undermining NCO's but the unit is getting rid of a bad egg just brush it off and carry on.

Response by SGT Katie Robinson made Apr 21 at 2016 1:41 AM

SGT Katie Robinson — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 01:41:12 -0400

Yes, it is undermining the NCO and the respect given the unit when it will not push for chapter or UMCJ action.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 3:32 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 03:32:06 -0400

9 days until I start my ETS leave (yes, I'm bragging, I'm happy, I want to share my joy!) I'm doing what I need to do, keeping my head down and going to parade rest for my SGM even when they show up in the office yesterday to grab something in civilians on their way somewhere else. Until I get the sweet DD214 in my Hand, my ETS date arrives, I am STILL in the Army. If I go on ETS leave and get a DUI on leave, I am Still in the Army. For -- correct me? -- 30 or 60 days AFTER I reach my ETS Date, The Army is still responsible for what I do and I can go to Army jail. The soldier signed the contract, they knew the rules, no deniable plausibility. They should be treated accordingly as an adult who is responsible for their own actions.

Response by GySgt Steven Robeson made Apr 21 at 2016 7:10 AM

GySgt Steven Robeson — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:10:00 -0400

Absolutely. You're expected to act professionally in ANY job, Day 1 to Day Last. There's no accommodation in any branch's rules that I am aware of that gives a departing warrior a "free shot". Imagine what would happen to your CIVILIAN job references if you took a cheap shot going out the door, and your NEXT employer got an earful when they called...?!?!

Response by SFC Ethan Graves made Apr 21 at 2016 8:20 AM

SFC Ethan Graves — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:20:22 -0400

Get with your chain of command and seek UCMJ action. Taking a sm time and money seems to get 99% of the problem child's attention. There use to be company grade or field grade article 15. Not sure if those two are available or changed what they are called. Make sure your chain of command will back you in this before trying to implement. Nothing like seeing your feet sweep from under you because of weak leadership. I have witnessed a toxic weak leadership. Leads to weak standards, high ETS and low retention. It is a moral killer. Another method is to get NCO's of the unit together with problem soldiers and have a party involving remedial PT (Physical Training is a perishable skill and should always be on the training schedule). Another method is get on the training schedule to practice combatives (it is a perishable skill that should always be on the training schedule) and ensure problem child is partnered with a ringer (who might understand the current situation with sm's attitude). During combatives make sure use the sm as a demonstrator as well for rear naked chokes, etc... Make sure this is a win for the combatives as your defeat may only add to the issue and not resolve it. Best of luck and thank you for your service. I hope that your leadership challenge resolves quickly.

FYI...doing nothing will be the kiss of death for you as the soldier's disrespect for you will spread like a cancer to the other soldiers wondering what boundaries they can cross. Tighten that shot group ASAP.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 8:27 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 08:27:25 -0400

I saw the most worse case scenario of your question, while stationed in Germany. A fellow soldier, to remain nameless, whom was always an issue, had drug issues and discipline issues. They article 15 him and he still was an issue they tried to deal with. As they tried to put him out, him would act up, get another article 15, and extend his time in the Army. This went on until his roommate confronted him about forging some of his checks. The problem soldier ended up killing his roommate. The standing opinion was, if they ignored all of his miss action, which were acts defiance, his roommate would still be alive. Sometimes you need to realize that acting up and out is an attempt to hold on to the military. You NEED to ignore their actions, unless they become violent in nature. If they go that route, lock them up and allow the MP's to have fun with them. Do not give into their antics. And if your young soldiers question you about it, relay this story. And that if you pay attention to his antics, he will be around longer, as the system HAS to deal with his charges and discipline. Again, unless yours turns violent, ignore it: just put the trash out.

Response by SGT Greg Pochowski made Apr 21 at 2016 11:37 AM

SGT Greg Pochowski — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:37:19 -0400

Damn straight it is! While you wear that uniform, you wear that uniform! And with that comes the responsibilities and obligations you agreed upon, until AFTER your ETS.

Response by SSG Chris McKee made Apr 21 at 2016 2:51 PM

SSG Chris McKee — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 14:51:35 -0400

Absolutely and if the unit had any backbone the commander would slap him with a company grade take some of his money and rank and let them ETS a broke E-1

Response by CSM Felipe Mendez made Apr 21 at 2016 3:56 PM

CSM Felipe Mendez — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:56:42 -0400

It does not matter how much time this individual have left in the military. UCMJ should be implemented. If he/she does not care to follow the rules, you (NCO) should be passive about taking actions. This individual may have been getting away with things for while and the signs were there. There are times in which the unit take in consideration the time that would take to process a chapter paperwork. I seen it been completed in seven days. As a previous CSM, I requested the assistant of my CDR on getting a chapter done. This was done while stationed in Korea. He contact the necessary people (JAG, Soldier's CDR, Legal office) and once we had all the documents, my CDR had the soldier's commander escort the soldier through the process and he was gone in 7 days. It can be done. There are times in which NCOs want to UCMJ/chapter a soldier, but do not want the headache that comes with. Make it happen, if not, he/she will come back to the military service and will be someone's else headache. I hope he/she does not get assigned back to the same chain of command/unit.

Response by SGT Pete Masullo made Apr 21 at 2016 7:07 PM

SGT Pete Masullo — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 19:07:01 -0400

I understand the principle of taking action no matter what the ETS date, I get it. But put it in perspective. Most soldiers are ready to get out and are happy, not bitter. Some are bitter, but that maintain their bearing. I remember ETSing and having a pretty soft last couple of months. I would imagine the severity of the disrespect and time left would have to be taken into account to some degree...was the disrespect a response to some junior leader getting his last licks in? I think a good First Seargant and CO would do the right thing and it would be a case by case basis.

Response by SGT John Efelis made Apr 21 at 2016 8:27 PM

SGT John Efelis — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:27:58 -0400

Good. That Soldier obviously had a reason for his actions. Maybe someone, (NCO), needs to take a look in the mirror. NCO's in general do not just get respect, NCO's EARN respect. As an NCO myself, I never told any subordinate that they HAD to respect me, rather that they only had to do what they were told, when they were told to do something. The respect was earned when it was realized that I was fair and equal to everyone across the board and I showed and proved that I led from the front.

Response by SGT John Efelis made Apr 21 at 2016 8:30 PM

SGT John Efelis — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:30:59 -0400

Also, I am a product of command philosophy that there are no bad Soldiers, just bad leaders.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Apr 22 at 2016 4:17 AM

1SG Patrick Sims — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 04:17:13 -0400

A soldier disrespecting an NCO is a serious problem that has to be addressed on the spot. Keep in mind there are several reasons for a soldier acting up---the NCO may not be a very good leader. It may be something personal between him and the soldier, or the soldier may have a personal problem that's causing this behavior. It could also simply be--- the soldier is a pain in the ass, and doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. If it is any one or all of the above and the unit won't push for a chapter or UMCJ It would seem to me the problem rests with the 1st Sergeant and the units Commander. If those two men won't back up their NCO's the problem will spread. In a combat support units, this can cause the death of soldiers their are charged with supporting. If its a combat unit it can be dealt by other means. I spent 915 days in Vietnam. I hate to admit it, but there are ways of dealing with an idiot who actions are going to get people killed. I know many reading this won't agree with my statement, but your soldiers are in a life and death situation. Your a leader, you're also responsible for their lives. You're going to have to make a decision on the spot----or keep stuffing your soldiers into body bags----It's one of the times you going to wish you were just a private.

Response by SGT Randolph Carlton made Apr 24 at 2016 9:39 PM

SGT Randolph Carlton — Sun, 24 Apr 2016 21:39:29 -0400

Depends on the situation and unit commander

Response by SGT John Keehner made Apr 24 at 2016 11:16 PM

SGT John Keehner — Sun, 24 Apr 2016 23:16:23 -0400

It sends a message to the other soldiers. Making the NCO looking weak. Till he signs out of Bn headquarters and he is out the gate he is still a soldier.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2016 1:59 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 13:59:55 -0400

Yes. Soldiers are to be held accountable for their actions, regardless of time left in the Military.

Response by MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow made Apr 25 at 2016 7:18 PM

MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:18:19 -0400

If a subordinate disrespects an NCO he/she needs to be disciplined under UCMJ no matter time to discharge.

Response by PFC Daniel Starrett made Apr 26 at 2016 6:18 PM

PFC Daniel Starrett — Tue, 26 Apr 2016 18:18:58 -0400

I would say it is a case by case basis. If it was just a simple " 'F' you!" and the soldier had one day left, give him shit duty for that evening and let the rest go. If you do otherwise, all you are doing is showing yourself to be intolerant and abusive; yes abusive. NOW, with that said, let's say you were gay and he comes up to you and starts harassing you, calling a perverted Fag who will burn in Hell..... By all means, suspend the discharge (even if he is due to discharge the next day) and serve him up his article 15 before he can leave the service.

In the end, it is a case by case basis and you need to evaluate the situation at hand and ask yourself, what would be accomplished by extending his service in order for him to face disciplinary actions.

Response by 1stSgt Stanley Geiger made May 3 at 2016 2:05 PM

1stSgt Stanley Geiger — Tue, 03 May 2016 14:05:27 -0400

Sounds to like there is a leadership problem at the top. If i am the nco in this case i avoid the situation or request mast and let the next level of leadership deal with it.

Response by SGT Kyle Johnson made May 8 at 2016 9:21 PM

SGT Kyle Johnson — Sun, 08 May 2016 21:21:33 -0400

My favorite was in Germany, the SM had a 0 dark thirty bus ride to the airport to ETS back to the world. He knew better than to be mouth off to any NCO, but, He painted FTA on BN HQ on his way out during the night... Guess who was picked up in the airport, brought back and painted the whole building. Did extra duty and escorted everywhere he went. Took 2 months for all the UCMJ actions. But no NCO complained having to watch him while on Staff Duty, they made him clean latrines, take out garbage ect. Best part was it not only showed other SMs how to behave when ETS / PCS came around. It did set a standard, a SM acted up, you asked him if he wanted to paint BN HQ.

Response by SGT John Hamby made May 13 at 2016 2:21 AM

SGT John Hamby — Fri, 13 May 2016 02:21:06 -0400

yes it is, because until that soldier has been 'cut loose' , they are still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice

Response by PO1 Lawrence Fuller made May 20 at 2016 11:50 AM

PO1 Lawrence Fuller — Fri, 20 May 2016 11:50:35 -0400

It all depends on the situation. As a leader I worry about my juniors and their well being even if their not. If my sailor is schedule to receive an Honorable Discharge and why as a leader would I deliberately change his DD-214 with a code that would change his whole life and make it harder on him to make a transition. Some say they did it to themselves but as a leader I want all my sailors to be successful and as Law Enforcement Officers we use the letter of the law and spirit of the law. But I would try and reach out to my sailor and explain why until you actually separate that your mouth can get you in trouble.

Response by SSG Kyle Stromgren made Jun 14 at 2016 9:27 AM

SSG Kyle Stromgren — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 09:27:48 -0400

We had a soldier called back from terminal leave to get an article 15 for a hot UA
and another given a ar 15 for using his room mates meal card a week before ets so yes never hold back

Response by SFC Bruce Mcglasson made Jun 16 at 2016 1:22 PM

SFC Bruce Mcglasson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:22:02 -0400

I would remove and or the solider would have a counseling session just the solider and I

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Jun 24 at 2016 6:25 PM

SPC John Lebiecki — Fri, 24 Jun 2016 18:25:40 -0400

Of course you can. Just remember to ask yourself if the battle is worth fighting. Is it worth holding them for mouthing off at the last minute. Case by case....

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Jul 5 at 2016 1:24 PM

SGT Alejandro Sarandrea — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:24:48 -0400

I know officers can be extended if the chain of command is thinking about proceeding with a court martial. However, I'm not sure a flag will stop an enlisted SM from ETSing so drawing up all the paperwork may be pointless if the SM would be out before his punishment could be ordered or carried out.

Response by SGT Rick Pierson made Apr 2 at 2017 11:43 PM

SGT Rick Pierson — Sun, 02 Apr 2017 23:43:30 -0400

Yes

Response by SGT Rick Pierson made Apr 2 at 2017 11:43 PM

SGT Rick Pierson — Sun, 02 Apr 2017 23:43:30 -0400

Yes

Response by SSG Thomas Trutt made Jan 9 at 2019 9:52 AM

SSG Thomas Trutt — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:52:56 -0500

If a soldier is separating and starts to get out of line, correct them and let them know what the consequences will be if they continue. If it doesn't stop or they do something serious then absolutely move for punishment.
That said, if a Soldier calls you a few choice words the day before they get out, think about if it's worth the time, effort, and tax-payer money it would cost to involuntarily extend them, investigate them, pursue punishment, and the morale issues it would cause to have them around and going through this.
I always said that if someone doesn't want to be in I will help them get out, and if the Army isn't for you I'm not gonna try to screw you over. If the soldier is getting out you might cause their family serious financial hardships by keeping them past their separation date. Or you could make them lose a new job, lose a place to live, miss a school start date, etc. So accordingly, it has to be something that damaged more than my feelings before I'd do that to someone. I'll trust my soldiers to know from my other actions that it isn't a sign of weakness to just be done with someone.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Nov 3 at 2019 1:34 AM

SFC Michael W. — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:34:22 -0500

Then that unit needs to be looked at a lot closer because someone is in a position they should not be...

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Aug 1 at 2023 5:45 PM

SGT Ruben Lozada — Tue, 01 Aug 2023 17:45:24 -0400

Good afternoon SSG Private RallyPoint Member. Excellent post. Thank You for sharing this Brother Carlos. Excellent question and I'm sure this has happened innthe past many of times. A Soldier whether he or shecactive duty or reserves should disrespect an NCO. This to me is just asking for trouble. Because every NCO is different one may determine to let ot slide and on the other hand another NCO will make them to "cherry pickers" for 30 minutes. If said Soldier hasn't ETS yet, then he or she technically still is a part of that unit. If that happened to me I would be in favor UCMJ. I'm sure somewhere in the UCMJ it states not to disrespect an NCO. I can be wrong here. Just my thoughts. Not once have I thought about disrespecting an NCO I was taught that when I first joined the Navy as an E-1.