Is Krav Maga more practical than Modern Army Combatives?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 00:54:42 -0400

Ok. Some people might get mad at me for even questioning MAC. Don’t get me wrong, ground grappling has its place but in a mob attack—it is not smart. Krav Maga stresses the importance of remaining standing, defending while attacking (cutting time), and turning the table on an armed opponent. Lets face it, with all of our combat gear on, who wants to take the fight to the ground (not me).

While I agree with the MAC techniques, I feel that Krav Maga covers an angle to the scheme of things; it still upholds closing-in on an enemy ("close combat" atleast for Military Krav Maga) but without going to the ground. It does help to know some Jiu Jitsu/MAC because you'll never know when you will be on the ground.

Moreover, Krav Maga adds confidence to the “Resistance” part of SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape).

I have a wrestling background (Olympic, Greco, and Freestyle). I have been a Krav Maga student for only three months. Although, I lean more towards Krav Maga in this argument, I do love MAC for sports.

Response by SGT Brenden Lee made Jun 8 at 2015 1:33 AM

SGT Brenden Lee — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 01:33:02 -0400

When I served we learned the standard hand to hand combat unlike the Modern Army Combatives used today. My background is in Hapkido, Taekwondo and Capoeira with some training in Thai Kickboxing and while I've had the pleasure of watching Krav Maga in action don't feel I'm qualified to say one way or another between the two. While MAC is definitely good for close-quartered standing and ground work (you should have a nasty blade to use in this case) which gives you a certain advantage over your opponent with your advanced training where Krav Maga is primarily threat neutralization, simultaneous defensive and offensive maneuvering and aggression it does not seem to offer a lot of ground work...my choice would be MAC. It is a tried and true form in my opinion for the purpose of your question.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 1:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 01:35:00 -0400

It sounds like your view of MAC is pretty limited to BJJ, which is pretty true for level 1, but not MAC as a whole. There are plenty of drills focused strictly on fighting with tactical gear on.

MAC is still very young and being refined. Less than 20 years ago it was brand new in Ranger Regiment and it was just called "combatives".

I think in any martial art it's less about the technique and more the way it's practiced that leads to success. I think we've all seen the difference in a class where combatives are being "taught" and one where they are actively practiced.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 5:13 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 05:13:45 -0400

SOCP is more practical than both Krav Maga and MACP. You learn to fight standing and on the ground and how to use your rifle, pistol, and knife...with the focus of using a lesser weapon only when you are unable to use your primary weapon and how to fight to get back to your primary weapon. It also teaches you have to leverage your body against an opponent when you are in full combat kit (body armor and helmet)

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 8 at 2015 6:52 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 06:52:36 -0400

There is no "best" Martial art. There is a best martial art for the situation you are currently in. That said, if you are going to provide a "baseline" for everyone, based on most likely scenario, what do you go with? (I'm making no assessment in particulars).

The default is that you have your primary weapon, whether rifle and/or pistol, and are standing, and therefore do not need to engage hand-to-hand. Take yourself out of the default equation, and grappling, especially ground based grappling becomes a good go-to martial art.

This isn't to say KM is bad, but that it's farther down the "most likely chain" and hence requires less focus. MAC's fundamentals are further up the chain of "most likely" end up being a better fit for "baseline." It's a working Big to Small issue.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 7:16 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 07:16:42 -0400

I'm in combatives now. I love it! I have been looking into Krav Maga. I believe it's the next step in close quarters combat

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 7:47 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 07:47:45 -0400

I'm no expert in MAC, but I would suggest a combination of MAC and KM. It's my understanding that in KM, you are neutralizing someone and learning close ground techniques. In MAC, you are doing similar, but also learning to fight in your gear which I would think would be helpful. Again, I'm no expert, just observing.

I'm a student in Muay Thai now for over 2 years. I've learned some great defensive techniques as well as some knife defense skills. While I'm no Ronda Rousey, you better not push your luck with me though. lol

Great discussion!

Response by MSG David Chappell made Jun 8 at 2015 7:48 AM

MSG David Chappell — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 07:48:37 -0400

Body armor +full load+weapon+ going to the ground = turtle

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 8:24 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 08:24:07 -0400

I think the psychology behind MAC is that "all fights, eventually, devolve to struggling on the ground, so be ready for it". One problem we have in Reserves (and I assume National Guard as well) is that we rarely ever see MAC. "Combatives" shows up on the training schedule once, maybe twice, a year so we're basically learning Drill 1 over and over again, and we have to be re-introduced to that each time. And each time I have to remind myself there's more to it than what we see, 'cause I think "Doing this stuff with gear on? No way."

An instructor told me that, in the worst case scenario, MAC should give you the skills you need to keep your personal opponent from beating you until the rest of your buddies can come and help you. I'd love to see more of what MAC has to offer, but until we can have an AT devoted to two weeks of Combatives I'm stuck with what I can get on the civilian market.

Fortunately there is a Krav Maga studio nearby so I'll look into that. In the meantime I took a couple years of Kenpo a long time ago and really enjoyed that... if I ever got into hand-to-hand combat (a vanishingly rare situation) I'd use as much of that as I remember, since my Combatives training is paper-thin, unfortunately.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 9:10 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 09:10:35 -0400

As a long time military martial arts instructor, no matter what you call it, self defense basics never change, no matter what the style. The styles merely vary by the experience, capability, and personality of instructors, and the order in which techniques and tactics are taught. There are differences in true martial arts vs sports vs basic police/military training such as whether one is offensive or defensive. During the 70's when the show "kung fu" was popular, instructors painted over their signs and reworded them to say "Karate" or Kung Fu even when they were not Chinese origins. That said, there were not a lot of belts and colors involved pre 1950 until Americans got involved and brought "Ju Jitsu" and so forth into the United States. Meanwhile, there are many dubious claims to have "started" ancient martial arts in various locations around the world.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jun 8 at 2015 9:14 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 09:14:48 -0400

I always believed I would employ whatever tactics it took if I had to engage in hand-to-hand combat, be it something that was trained over the course of my career in the Army or whatever I had picked up throughout the course of my life, hell I would even go WWE on "their" ass if need be to ensure that I came out the victor!!

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 8 at 2015 9:40 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 09:40:00 -0400

Modern Army Combatives appears to me to have a lot of Krav Maga already blended in to the program. Watching some Sambo, there are many similarities with Krav...with Krav doing a lot less ground work. I think the Krav Maga fighter is more concerned with multiple attackers and being on the ground would..in my opinion...normally be fatal when facing multiple attackers.

Response by SPC Candace Leach made Jun 8 at 2015 9:55 AM

SPC Candace Leach — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 09:55:12 -0400

I'm no expert in MAC since I have no experience with MAC and was taught and instructed the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program MCMAP. It's great to learn more than one martial arts and all but I don't think that both MAC and MCMAP isn't enough. I train in Muay Thai for 14 years and BJJ for three years. It would be great if there are more real life training to where we can use some techniques and I think that's where we lack in. Just speaking my opinion.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 10:14 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 10:14:16 -0400

I think a combination of the two is very effective. While I have little experience in MAC, I've seen fellow soldiers who have trained in MAC, as well as varying types of martial arts. The more you know, and the more situations you train for, the better off you will be. If it is life or death, I am willing to use whatever "dirty trick" affordable to me to win, or (preferably) gain positive control of a weapon, be it mine or the enemy's or even a brick if that's what it takes.

What makes martial arts like Krav Maga, MAC, Silat, and the like so desirable to a soldier is the strict self-defense aspect. While traditional martial arts are effective, more often than not, they are trained as a competition or discipline/skill sport first, and a combat technique second. Krav Maga and MAC are not flashy by any means, and are design to maim, disable, and kill (if need be). This all said, ALL martial arts are effective and practical, save for most martial weapons arts.

Still, a firearm typically beats fisticuffs any day. Which is why most military special forces train to use all aspects of the weapon to maintain positive control of the weapon while simultaneously flooring their enemy, stunning them, or even simply shoving them back to open opportunities to fire. THAT to me, is most effective. And it works, if history is any proof. Whatever kills quickest would be the best, theoretically. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to role around on the floor with an enemy longer than I have to so his comrades can shoot me while I am prone.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 11:16 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:16:23 -0400

Krav Maga, is very good at teaching defense.
MAC-P teaches offense with your full kit.
MAC-P teaches a lot of BJJ styles moves in level 1, but adds as you move up.
I think level one and 2 should be taught in Basic/AIT. And there should be an annual refresher.
MAC-P also only teaches you moves you can practice, you will get to buttstroke someone, and you will get your own chest muzzle thumped. Krav Maga and styles like it will sometimes teach moves where the finish is and then you rip out the enemies eye, bite them, squeeze their balls making them rupture, all things you cannot practice.
In the end Soldiers might need more than MAC-P and the Army is continually trying to improve the program. We may borrow more from Krav Maga, we might borrow more from somewhere else.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Jun 8 at 2015 11:26 AM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:26:58 -0400

MAC isn't practical in my opinion. Krav Maga seems more beneficial

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 11:34 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:34:04 -0400

My philosophy in combatives is fast & dirty. I may not be the only one hurt in the fight, but I'll be the only one walking away. I have incorporated many different styles into my personal style due to small stature. I like Aikido's evasion & use of the opponent's force against them. I like Krav's brutality & speed to end the fight quick. I think that, when all is said & done, most military martial arts/combatives programs will reflect these.

I think that they teach ground fighting first because it is the MOST IMPORTANT skill to know. If you find yourself on the ground, you damn well better know how to get the hell out of there, or win the damn fight. I think that if it is the first technique you learn, it is the one that you will practice the most, because you will revisit the basics. Just like in tae kwon do, you learn your basic punch & kicks first because these are the moves you will instinctively fall back upon. If you learn ground fighting first, you will instinctively fall back to your basic teachings to get you the hell out of there.

Of course, the ultimate goal is to not have to take it to the ground, but the best laid plans...

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Jun 8 at 2015 1:07 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:07:36 -0400

I'm about to start Krav Maga classes because I believe it's something I can use and remember. As a non-combat MOS, the amount of training we get on combatives is extremely low. It is usually dependent on how much time your command will spare you to go to classes. From what I understand of Krav Maga it focuses less on technique than traditional martial arts and more on results. Results are what matter in a fight.

Response by SGT Kevin Brown made Jun 8 at 2015 1:12 PM

SGT Kevin Brown — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 13:12:25 -0400

MAC is a good discipline but impractical in full get up. Krav Maga is great but limiting when the fight goes to the ground. A diverse balance must be found based on the warriors strength. I love my guns and would rather use them to keep the enemy out of arms reach, but that isn't always possible. Personally I practice Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido and Krav Maga. Mix that with some Tai Chi to strengthen my ability to keep my head and maintain control. I personally think the Army should stick with MAC, but offer a variety of disciplines throughout (in garrison, abroad, deployed) and develop a small incentive system to encourage participation like promotion points for various degrees or belts.

Response by SPC David S. made Jun 8 at 2015 2:19 PM

SPC David S. — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 14:19:53 -0400

I'm a big fan of Israeli close quarters style of fighting however I think Jeet Kune Do or JKD could be of better use with one on one as apposed to Krav Maga. It is intended to use minimal movements with maximum effects and extreme speed and attack opponents centerline. It would be interesting to see a Krav Maga vs JKD fight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2015 1:37 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2015 01:37:07 -0400

BJJ and ground fighting all the way, but then again I'm a little bit biased.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Jun 15 at 2015 4:36 PM

SPC David Hannaman — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:36:17 -0400

I was Aviation, and it was 20 years ago, so the only "Army Combatives" training I got was in basic... combat arms MOS's please chime in if it got better later.

That said, the training I did get was a joke, and I knew it was at the time. My opinion was jaded because I'd taken Tae Kwon Do for 4 years with a bit of Judo and Jujitsu mixed in, but our drill instructors even had the falls backward.

Bayonet isn't a big leap from staff training, there wasn't much boxing equipment available at the on post gyms I went to... we could do a whole lot better with VERY little effort and cost.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2015 1:15 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jul 2015 01:15:47 -0400

Simple Answer Is Yes. MACP is almost a tournament sport now. I went to training (I was teamed up with a guy half my age, outweighed me by about 50 pounds and 4 inches) I was then told I could not use what I know. I left. The Marine training or SOCP is better as it gets you back to your weapons.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 8:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 20:23:41 -0400

When it comes to martial arts the more you learn and practice the more tools you have to draw upon when needing it. When I was taking criminal justice in high school they taught a modified karate that had multiple police joint manipulation techniques included comes in handy. Mac is good and so is Krav both have their applications would be nice if both were taught.

Response by Cpl Benjamin Long made Jan 13 at 2019 8:10 AM

Cpl Benjamin Long — Sun, 13 Jan 2019 08:10:13 -0500

any system that you know how to apply in a practical setting is the most effective. If you mindset is that your systems is the best thing ever, then you will quickly find the bigger fish that eats you. as miamoto musashi said, "It is not the weapon that matters, but the arm that wields it"

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jan 14 at 2019 1:10 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 14 Jan 2019 13:10:01 -0500

I still prefer Gun Fu.