Is military bearing lost in today's Army?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:12:40 -0500

As the years I've been in the Army go by I'm noticing less military bearing being displayed. I see soldiers going straight to the First Sergeant or Commander with an issue instead of using their chain of command, not standing at parade rest for NCOs or attention for officers. Soldiers questioning an order given to them by their superior instead of just executing. Further more, I see soldiers, both lower enlisted and NCOs , looking lost when it comes to the simplest thing of drill and ceremony. I'm one who is a stickler for military bearing and for that reason there are some soldiers in my unit and other units who think I'm too uptight or too serious which doesn't bother me in the least. I don't know if this is just in the reserves or both active and reserves , but am I the only one who is noticing this?

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Jan 16 at 2016 1:14 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:14:21 -0500

We had that problem in the '70s too.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 1:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:22:19 -0500

Military bearing is something that needs to be exercised frequently. A large portion of this problem is soldiers becoming NCOs within their ranks, but not being moved away to other companies. Soldiers get too comfortable within their footprint. Newly promoted NCOs don't know where to draw the line with their once used to be peers. This carries on outside their footprint. I've seen it first hand.

Also the quality of soldiers coming straight out of IET. There's only a few that are molded into soldiers. They just don't make them like they used to.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 1:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:30:52 -0500

This is an issue. We promoted way to fast and the NCO'S that we have now reflect that. The discipline really went away when we changed the uniform. We went from spit shined boots with pressed uniform to wear as is uniform with very little maintenance boots. At the sametime we got rid of the drills at the AIT level and made it more company friendly.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 1:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:37:02 -0500

I've seen this trend as well. But, every generation of leaders says this. I'd honestly say it's the "millennial" generation doing the most questioning of orders. Gen X and Millenials learned about what following orders blindly led to in Vietnam and how some of the vets suffered because of it. This new generation is also taught that no person is better than another, regardless of position. They learn not to trust the government.
Now, I'm not arguing that any of this is right. In fact, I'd argue that this means we just need to tighten the reigns in BCT and AIT instead of adding more restrictions to the individuals conducting the training.

Response by SSG Lenzie Bailey made Jan 16 at 2016 1:38 PM

SSG Lenzie Bailey — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:38:42 -0500

Continue to uphold the standards. That is part of what being a NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER my good man. NCO'S make it happen not just a pay grade!

Response by SGT Stephen Hirt made Jan 16 at 2016 1:43 PM

SGT Stephen Hirt — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:43:45 -0500

I'm out now but I saw that going on more and more. I think it is out of necessity. Mid-level leaders, in most of the cases I have seen, DO NOT take care of the soldiers, don't know or understand what is going on so they put out incorrect information, or simply don't care. Soldiers need things taken care of and they are doing that. It is a failure of the promotion system in my opinion. But that's just my opinion.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 1:55 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:55:05 -0500

Yes

Response by SN Greg Wright made Jan 16 at 2016 2:33 PM

SN Greg Wright — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:33:08 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Not just the Army. I see serving members here all the time addressing serving superiors in manners that would have been unthinkable to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 2:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:54:55 -0500

No it's not just you or the reserves. The Army is changing to a sensitive Army, but NCO's all over need to uphold/enforce standards. Call me uptight, a Boy Scout whatever, if it needs to be corrected we need to fix it. Also, Officers are not helping! They walk around with their hands in their pockets and correcting them is an up hill battle. I think if they "Officers" would uphold and enforce the standards it would have a trickle down effect. NCO's lead the way so 1SG, SGM, CSM's that are the tip of the backbone..start correcting your senior leadership and Officers. Officers may out rank us, but they need to be setting the example also and Senior Officers listen to Senior NCO's so...MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 2:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:55:52 -0500

There are several issues here, and just about all of them have to do with a failure in leadership rather than a failure on the part of the soldiers. As an enlisted soldier, I quickly learned which NCOs in my unit were actually able to resolve issues and offer guidance. These NCOs (or even the 1SG or CO) weren't part of my direct chain of command, but I wasn't about to let other people dictate the direction or progression of my career if I could help it. Now that i'm an NCO, I do everything I can to make sure not to fail my SGTs and soldiers in this way.
~ NCOs need to not be afraid to spot-correct their soldiers, SGTs, and even each other when there is an issue. This also means that we need the support of senior NCOs and officers, so that we don't have to be afraid of getting called into the CO's office for dressing down a soldier.
~ I go back and forth on your point about soldiers questioning orders instead of just following them. I completely agree that soldiers should not question orders. On the other hand, I always want my soldiers to understand why I'm giving them [insert direction here], so that when they get promoted they know how to be a decent leader.
~ Being lost with D&C, addressing NCOs by name instead of rank while on duty, not standing at parade rest when addressing an NCO, etc... not okay.

Any soldier that looks at you like you're taking things too seriously is wrong. Keep doing what you're doing, and know that you're not alone.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 6:04 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:04:36 -0500

My personal and professional opinion; Military bearing is not lost nor is it going away. The problem is a great number of Leaders (NCOs and Officers) are setting toxic examples and environments for their Soldiers. This creates more toxic leaders as Soldiers feed off of this and think it's ok. If you let your Soldiers not stand at Parade Rest for NCOs or Attention for Officers and let it go on without saying anything, then they will adapt to this and continue to do it as it's ok. Now there's a time and place for everything, when I'm having a sit down discussion with my platoon, they are not at parade rest as I want their undivided attention as they have mine and my platoon leaders. However, when the time comes, they know when to stand at parade rest. I believe if a leader enables the Army Standard, which has not changed, Soldiers will adapt and grow off of great leadership. This means as NCOs, we should be standing at Parade Rest and Attention as well for our leaders as we are NOT above the standard. If the leadership is ate-up themselves then the Soldier will most likely be as well. Sometimes it is not the Soldiers fault as they may have only had Toxic leadership but sometimes you do have those Soldiers that just "cant get right".

Now as for Soldiers asking questions when giving orders, sometimes questions are good. I would rather have a Soldier ask me questions as if they dont understand, then execute without knowing and fail. It's a leaders responsibility to ensure the Soldier acknowledges what he/she is doing and knows how to do it. If they dont, then show them and set the example and standard to how it must be done. As far as Drill & Ceremony goes, NCOs just have to get after it and practice by the numbers. This is something I have my Team leaders do with the Soldiers in my platoon for Sergeants time training. When I was at my Previous unit, my CSM set the standard that 3 or more SMs walking together must be marched. This encouraged NCOs and all SMs to learn D&C as it was prescribed by the CSM to drill your Soldiers.
In a nutshell, if we as leaders do not get after it each and everyday, we will not only fail as leaders, but fail our Soldiers as well. We have to Lead from the Front.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 16 at 2016 6:08 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:08:02 -0500

If the Army was a football team, who is responsible for lackluster performance? Just food for thought.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 6:42 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:42:08 -0500

Just a couple of observations on this point. First, discipline and self-discipline are indicators of training. Training on standards, policy and TTP. If leaders don't train their soldiers on common tasks, Battle tasks and the such, then their subordinates don't gain confidence in their leader's technical and tactical proficiency. As a result, soldiers have little confidence in their immediate supervisors/front line leaders and will by-pass them every time.

Second, the senior leaders need to ask one question when a soldier approached them 'have you spoken about this to your Sqd Ldr/Plt Ldr, etc. By refusing to address problems that can be addressed at the lowest level, the senior leaders are providing their subordinates with an opportunity to lead and manage. However, if a soldier states that they have spoken to their front line leaders, then those front line leaders need to be a party of the discussion. This becomes a training opportunity for everyone involved as the senior leaders speak with the soldier, in front of their front line leaders to determine the problem/issue. The senior leader asks the NCO or company grade officer what they believe the problem is and what they suggest the solution should be. If the solution is within the scope/authority of the NCO and company grade officer, then remind them that they have permission to act. If the solution requires escalation, then this will become obvious to everyone and the senior leader will respond with 'I've got this and will keep everyone apprised of the resolution.'

Finally, it is about standards. As stated earlier in this thread, standards must be known and enforced. I was taught that any uncorrected error (uniform, discipline, performance, respect, etc.) establishes a new standard (often lower). So, the first act is communicating the standards, then reinforcing them at every opportunity through actions and corrective actions. If everyone is following the standards, except for a select few, then it will become obvious to everyone who is refusing to perform. They tend not to get awards, promotions or recommendations for re-enlistments (well, that is the way it should work). As a result, they get on board or depart to another career.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Jan 16 at 2016 6:43 PM

LTC John Shaw — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:43:40 -0500

The fact that you are interested in correcting this means that we have it in our power to make it happen. It is a continuous struggle that starts with squad, platoon and company leadership and must be reinforced by BN and above in both the officer and NCO chain. Senior leadership need recognize that mentoring programs for junior soldiers are required, we must spend time showing what right looks like and be worthy of the military bearing that should be shown.

Response by SSG Kelly Ferguson made Jan 16 at 2016 11:27 PM

SSG Kelly Ferguson — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 23:27:13 -0500

Yes it is

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Jan 17 at 2016 8:29 AM

CSM Michael Chavaree — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 08:29:09 -0500

I hate to be "that guy", but I don't see this as an issue from my unit. My medics are extremely disciplined.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Jan 17 at 2016 10:38 AM

SSG Byron Hewett — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 10:38:01 -0500

your not the only one who has noticed and it is spreading like a cancer. and the best thing that can be done is to keep instilling the army values, pushing the proper use of the chain of command, and teaching military customs and courtesies and using good judgment in correcting and counseling and teaching soldier in how to properly use the system the way it was meant to be used. This all starts with and ends with the NCO Corps setting, teaching, living and leading the way as the example for the Army and remembering that its the NCO Corps that is the backbone of the Army.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2016 12:23 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:23:22 -0500

I agree with you, I am a Soldier of the 80's. And I know and have seen how NCO's are suppose to conduct themselves. Throughout the past two decades, the PROFESSIONALISM of a NCO has been deminished by the focus of combat missions and field promotions. Which brings us to our current situation. Combat tours and high APFT scores are the one that are promoted. I get it, but where is the mentors hip and leadership development? It placed on the back burner due to high deployments. I know of some Squadleader that have less than 5 years time in service, that DO NOT have the knowledge and experience to be in those positions. So how can I expect those same Squadleader to enforce those same standards and military bearing.
When I do my NCOPD, I am shocked by how Squadleaders do not know how to a NCO LEADERSHIP COUNSELING OR A INITIAL COUNSELING. So it takes more time from training Soldier to training my NCOs to Professional NCOs; not to mention accountability of their Soldier. There is too much friendship driven leadership that cause the lack of military bearing. I believe that it's part of the new generation of Soldier. Hopefully, the Army can weed some of those individual out and get back to the "Old School" Army.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 17 at 2016 12:52 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:52:55 -0500

I just get the feeling some of our soldiers don't want to be the best.

Response by SSG Glen Krinsky made Jan 17 at 2016 4:38 PM

SSG Glen Krinsky — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 16:38:28 -0500

I think so. In my early days you were worried about getting smoked, or extra duty at the very least. But now, we are more worried about hurting someone feelings. I think we have lost the toughness we once had, and it reflects in the attitude of the soldiers.

Response by SPC Nathan Freeman made Jan 17 at 2016 5:44 PM

SPC Nathan Freeman — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 17:44:30 -0500

Solving this problem begins at the top. Commanders and 1SGs should first ask if the sm used the chain of command. NCOs need to enforce the rules. SPC should be empowered to enforce rules as they once did. This all begins at the top.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2016 6:38 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:38:30 -0500

Felix go back in time to when you first joined. Remember eavesdropping on the Old Timers and Lifers when you thought they didn't know you were there? What were they bitching about?

Invariably, it was about the total lack of bearing in "today's" soldier, and the total degradation of training in the troops coming in. If you were to track one of those old farts down and ask them what the "old timers" said when THEY first joined - it was exactly the same.

Excerpts from Plutarch and Pliny the Younger read exactly the same from the days of Rome...

We've ALWAYS complained about the same stuff. The kids today are slackers and have no motivation and aren't properly trained like _WE_ were back in the day.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2016 12:59 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 00:59:54 -0500

To fast of promotion young NCOs with no leadership skills and also lost of pride when they did away with uniform appearances (boots shine, uniform pressed)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2016 8:40 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:40:05 -0500

SSG you are in a perfect position to retrain soldiers and peers to enforce standards.
As a reservist you will see discipline in disarray because soldiers are only soldiers once a month. A gentle reminder and a swift boot often works wonders when reminding soldiers of their basic soldiering skills.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2016 11:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 23:30:21 -0500

These past couple years in my current guard unit I've noticed it usually depends on the chain itself. Some times lower enlisted feel more inclined to talk to their first line leader if they respect or are comfortable in knowing their first line leader can actually help. Too often they have one that doesn't seem to get much done at any other time so they feel as if they need to go around. So in my opinion it's a total failure in the leadership itself.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 4:56 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:56:51 -0500

I think it is a matter of command climate. Why are the Soldiers going to the 1SG or Commander first? What is it about them that makes them more approachable that their first line supervisor? Do the NCO's go to Parade rest when addressing officers or senior NCO's? It's all about setting the example. The thing that frustrates me is when a leader (senior or otherwise) begins with the loud bombastic yelling. Look, you get the same message across than to start to yell at people. It's not about a feelings thing or a kinder or gentler Army per se, it's the realization that we will bear this out for the weekend but come Sunday evening/Monday morning, we revert back to our civilian selves. I understand the concept of the professional Soldier and such, but let's be honest if you take that stuff with you back to your house it will drive you crazy. Instead, instill as sense of professionalism, by first doing your part, that is, address senior NCO's and Officers the way you expect your junior Soldiers to. This goes a long way, set the example and they will follow accordingly.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Jan 20 at 2016 10:39 AM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:39:08 -0500

Everything you've just said seems like there is a distinct failure in NCOs. If there's a loss in military bearing, that's a NCOs responsibility to fix. If they don't know drill and ceremony, that's something a NCO should be training them on. If they have to go to their First Sergeant and Commander with their issues, it's because they do not think their NCO is capable of fixing it or do not trust their NCO. Stop blaming your soldiers, and start training them.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2016 10:39 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:39:44 -0500

I hate to say it as a private, but yes. I honestly thought we'd have more discipline in the military, but I was shocked. I even saw it as a dependant. Don't get me wrong, there's many that do the right thing and wear the uniform with pride, others not so much. It goes alongside with today's society though as well, parents would rather be their child's best buddy rather than disciplining them. I do my best to properly address higher ups and I do my best to wear the uniform properly. With the drill and ceremony concerns, just keeping up with it and practicing it may help. To me it's second nature since it's mostly all we did in JROTC.

Response by Sgt Able Snider made Jan 22 at 2016 11:13 AM

Sgt Able Snider — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:13:38 -0500

I saw a guy once go from E-3 to E6 on one deployment. Really? Some of us older guys were like that is impossible, but not today.

Response by SGT Jason Keefer made Jan 22 at 2016 11:28 AM

SGT Jason Keefer — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:28:14 -0500

A good 1SG will ask them if they've spoke to their section chief before coming to them.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jan 22 at 2016 12:28 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:28:33 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member - We might have a few moving parts here. The Reserves are a different animal, and if one has comes from Active (particularly Combat Arms) as I did, the "culture shock" is like wearing the same uniform, but having joined an entirely different military branch. Being a civilian for 94% of the month will carry itself over to those 2 days a month in uniform. And as you made mention of D&C, I can certainly attest to the fact that I am rusty in that regard...I can honestly say--good or bad, right or wrong--I cannot remember the last time we did anything D&C related in our unit; even marching.

Another factor, whether Guard, Reserve or Active, may be the use (or misunderstanding of the purpose for) "open door policies" that may encourage soldiers to bypass the chain-of-command. Perhaps that's just a hypothesis on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was a factor to an extent.

Lastly, the command climate either allows for a relaxed attitude or it enforces proper bearing. I am mindful of military bearing, but I am certainly not blameless either. I am a Team Leader and sometimes forget my roll and place. I cannot change the command climate in which I operate, but I can work on myself and be the better example.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jan 22 at 2016 12:42 PM

SFC Don Ward — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:42:30 -0500

Yet they wrote a "white paper" declaring the military to be a Profession. Just like teaching values in the 1990's, when you have to turn it into teaching it is too late.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 12:59 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:59:20 -0500

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves "why" more often. As in "Why do we still enforce codes behavior that were in vogue 50 or more years ago?" Why does an English degree confer the ability to command troops in battle? Why do we still have Military academies? Personally, I would like to see the entire military simplified and modernized to get rid of anything that does not directly contribute to fighting and winning America's wars. Just because we have always done something is not a good enough reason to continue it. Grooming standards from the 1940's? Commissions for college degrees? Promotions based on calendars instead of proven merit? Medals and ribbons for anything? Traveling everywhere for "training" that could be done online or meetings that could be done with platforms like Skype? Wasteful and inefficient.

We can show respect enough to our Officers and NCO's by following orders and executing the mission without all the pageantry. I certainly have better uses for my limited time than worrying about whether Joe's socks are the wrong color. For the record, I do enforce the standards, I just think that my time and the time of other senior NCOs could be better utilized.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 1:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:02:09 -0500

you are not the onlyl one noticing this, I have seen it, I saw it rather when I was in. I thought some of my nco's were hard asses, but I became an NCO and realized they were NOT hard asses, they were the ones I continually went to about questions of what you related above. I guess I became like them. I didn't 'suffer fools' and became a stickler...I guess I got it right, I got pulled into the 1SG office WEEKLY to be told, 'you are NOT a hard ass, you're doing it right, I wish more NCO's were like you SGT Nuss.'

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 1:07 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:07:57 -0500

SSG- there are multiple reasons for all you listed.

Firstly. "The Open Door Policy" - I believe whole heartedly in this program. If it was utilized as it should. A SM unable to get answers to problems, unable to get an NCO to work, basically a serious issue. One which a SM might have issue with going to their first line or psg or pl. either something wrong happening at the lower levels that the SM feels reprocussion could come from, or confidence in leadership has broken down and the SM feels his NCOs will fail him once again. Great policy. But it has been used and abused now by people who play the mommy/daddy game.

Not standing at parade rest/attention- this one came from our long years of war. Little things fall to the sidelines as important things have to happen and in a hurry.
I'm not one who believes doing this is necessary for our everyday operations. When going about the days mission... But if it's an NCO I don't know I'm talking to. You're right. First the parade rest of attention should be given out of respect of rank until told to relax. It's a failure of leadership and lower level SM combined. Leaders not correcting it when it happens and SMs simply not doing it anyway... But we can't forget us regular old joes will take every inch and run a mile.
D&C is again the fast pace life of 14-15 years of war. No one has time to form up correctly and march somewhere it's show up ready, at the right time, uniform, and we're moving.

Response by SPC Matt Davidson made Jan 22 at 2016 1:29 PM

SPC Matt Davidson — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:29:40 -0500

I've been out almost 3yrs now after 8yrs in and yes the "questioning of orders" is somewhat generational having grown up hearing about how things went so wrong in Vietnam but when I went through WLC in 06' down in FT.Hood they flat out told us they didn't want soldiers that would blindly follow orders especially if they were illegal, immoral or unlawful. don't get me wrong I agree with you to a large extent with lower enlisted not going to parade rest etc... but when you've been in a unit that basically does everything they shouldn't and it starts at the top with things like your battalion commander shooting another soldier in the foot because he doesn't know how to clear his weapon properly to NCO's that threaten married soldiers by saying things like "you better pick which is more important to you your family or your career" or that sit in front of the company building and work on their car but won't allow a lower enlisted to go re-register their car because "something might come up" when there's nothing going on that causes a breakdown in the unit. don't get me wrong I'm not bitching about NCO's or officers we had plenty of lower enlisted fuck up all the time , when we came back from Iraq we had 2 SPC's get busted for drugs in less than 48 hr's and 4 soldiers seriously injured because one drove drunk and that was just for starters. but that was my last unit before I got out and the point I'm trying to make is if lower enlisted see upper personnel doing the wrong thing and not having any real repercussions then you have problems with military bearing.

Response by SPC Jason Westerling made Jan 22 at 2016 2:45 PM

SPC Jason Westerling — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 14:45:01 -0500

Poor NCO skills. From E5 up. If you are whining about it and being proactive then you are part of the problem.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 3:43 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:43:40 -0500

Having worked for some pretty high-speed people in pretty high-speed places, the best leaders I've worked for are the ones who care about getting the job done - not the ones who care about being spoken to from parade rest. The NCOs who take the best care of their troops are the ones that address them professionally, but know them by name - and how they think and work. You won't ever learn that from someone if they can't loosen up around you, nor will you ever learn about the problems that could keep them from being effective at work.

Best officer I've ever worked for, I called "sir" not because he demanded it (he didn't) but because I respected him. It didn't start that way; he earned it the hard way. I'd go to work, or put my life on the line, for him in a second... not so for someone whose first concern is how many times I call them "sergeant". Those guys typically make it clear through other means that they're focused on themselves, hence the demand they be treated with the respect the book says they deserve.

I think the issue is that many leaders who demand customs and courtesies be spot-on at all times generally do so because they lead through the authority invested in them by law - not through charisma or personal leadership skill.

There are exceptions. My CSM in my last unit would have skinned anyone who didn't address him properly - obviously. But he also took the time to get to know his troops, and he always emphasized how much he cared about us. He would follow up, too. If he was aware of an issue, he'd fix it, and make sure everyone knew he was trying to fix it so that it wouldn't look like the problem was being ignored. He never had the problem of not being properly addressed because not only did the book say "talk to CSM this way", everyone respected him enough to do it without hesitation.

On the flip side, there are quite a few junior soldiers who just don't have military bearing... the ones with crazy hairstyles in uniform, the ones who hide from reveille and retreat, the ones who don't seem to understand their job could be life-or-death at any second. But if they haven't been taught better, it's not their fault. That blame falls on the people teaching them. Problem is, if you tell someone that - for example - "you set your kit up this way because the SOP says so", they probably won't understand why it's important. If you point out "you will set your kit up in this manner so that if you're injured, your buddy can de-rig you and access your IFAK instantly" the results might be more positive.

As far as D&C goes, typically GRF and special units suck at it because we have more important things to train. Marching in lines stopped being a critical soldier task when the machine gun was introduced. Sure, it has its place, but it's not as important as marksmanship or first aid training, skills many units seem to be behind in training anyway.

But I'm not an NCO, just an intel analyst, so take it for what it's worth.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 4:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:02:55 -0500

YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN NOTICING THIS!!!!!

Response by SPC James Dollins made Jan 22 at 2016 7:04 PM

SPC James Dollins — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:04:01 -0500

I've noticed that for years. I went in in 2002. About 2004 is when military bearing went to hell. I noticed too, a lot of it depended where they went to BMT.

Response by SSG Opa Shaw made Jan 22 at 2016 7:52 PM

SSG Opa Shaw — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:52:34 -0500

Yes from the lowest to the highest and from the highest to the lowest...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 10:57 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 22:57:14 -0500

Hummm. I'm one to argue that there is a time and place for Soldiers speaking directly to their senior NCO'S and Officers. While on a patrol in combat I had a PFC ask me about something. I can't recall what it really wasn't that important and it was a long time ago, his Squad Leader proceed to rip him a new one right there in front of everyone . After he was done, I pulled the NCO a side and asked him. We still have three hours left on this mission how combat effective do you think that soldier is now?. ... He's going to be playing that ass chewing over and over in his head until we get back to the FOB. When I need him to be scanning the next possible choke point with his M2 as we roll down the road. What I'm trying to say there's no need to be an asshole for the sake of miltary bearing. Up hold the standards but a part of leadership is knowing how to effectively manage your Soldiers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 11:12 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 23:12:41 -0500

Cause drill and ceremony wins wars

Response by SSG Kelly Melton made Jan 26 at 2016 9:10 AM

SSG Kelly Melton — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 09:10:29 -0500

An NCO can only expect to see respect from an subordinate by displaying respect him self and direct support from the chain of command
A soild that goes straight to the 1st sergeant should be told use his chain of command tech support your hus first line lead r r

Response by SGT Jason Eley made Jan 26 at 2016 3:05 PM

SGT Jason Eley — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:05:00 -0500

Problem is this. The military wants to get rid of people so, they push out all these good N CO's that actually care for their soldiers. Some may have some troubled backgrounds but when it comes to their job and taking care of their Soldiers they exceeded the standard. There is other instances where the leader made his first mistake of his career, despite his outstanding background, the military basically says screw you get out of my Army. While they are letting other soldiers with harsher backgrounds stay in and continue being the same screw up they have always been. Leaders these days are all about there own and expect everyone else to catch up to them including the joes. You can not yell at soldiers like you used to and you can not discipline soldiers like you used to. There is certain MOS's that need this type of disciplinary action to help the soldier understand the significance of their failures.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 11:58 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 23:58:59 -0500

I have seen my fair share of people in the military getting treated like dirt. My first unit the higher-ups didn't display respect they demanded it. They always talked about rank and what-not and everything else. You would have people talking to you about how terrible you are when they themselves were no better. Plus everybody had their little groups and their friends while the rest of us got cheated. My next unit had it's problem but I respected that unit more because they looked out for it's soldiers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 1:40 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:40:36 -0500

From what I’ve seen, the biggest culprits in a lack of discipline are the support MOS. Anytime I’ve gone to an ssa or armament shop, I’ve seen nothing that resembles bearing. I reached into my pockets once and was corrected on that by a Sfc with no blouse on and a fleece cap in 60 degree weather in doors.

Response by SPC Kyle Williams made Jan 26 at 2019 2:27 AM

SPC Kyle Williams — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:27:37 -0500

When i was in iraq a sgt. I was bullshitting with stopped to correct a random soldier, she had her hair in a ponytail. Her response was "oh im reserves it doesnt matter" he is a really chill nco but he came unglued on her ass.

Response by SPC Kyle Williams made Jan 26 at 2019 2:42 AM

SPC Kyle Williams — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:42:05 -0500

I never questioned a order per say, but i hated being told to do something (ussually when it was a asinine task) with zero explanation. I was always told that i was wrong but i say this...if u tell me to dig a 5ft hole i will do it, if u tell me why im digging a 5ft hole chances are i can dig it more accurately for the task u have in mind. Thats a generic explanation but u get the idea. Clarity is not a bad thing

Response by SPC Denton McLaughlim made Jan 26 at 2019 11:02 AM

SPC Denton McLaughlim — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:02:31 -0500

There are ew appropriate times to question orders:
If it is a legal, moral, or safety issue. Absolutely. You can overlook something and unintentionally order something done that could be an issue. Grow a pair and speak up, no issues there. Now, that does not mean because you dont like it or prefer it another way, no. Only if it is an unnecessary risk.
The other reason to "question" a task is if you do not understand what you are to be doing. Rather than "just executing" and screwing it all up. I believe it is perfectly to ask for further instruction. This is questioning the "how" and NOT the "why."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 3:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:36:28 -0500

I see this as well, but I have several counterpoints.
1. On the subject of soldiers skipping the chain of command, I agree that it's an issue but one also has to look back on his or her self. Why does this soldier feel it necessary to jump the chain? Very often I think this is caused by that soldiers first line not being able or willing to solve a problem at their level. "If soldiers stop coming to you with problems it means that either they've concluded that you cannot or will not solve them. Both are a failure of leadership."
2. I do see fewer and fewer soldiers standing at parade rest/attention when speaking with seniors. I don't see this as an issue. Aside from arbitrary regulations how is it actually toxic to mission readiness. If you have to rely on arbitrary regulations to pad your ego and feel in charge, then chances are you're not as respected as you think you are.
3. This isn't the late 19th century, we don't fight in neat formations, nor do we get to any battlefield in cadence. Drill and ceremony is an outdated and useless skill today. Stop clinging to outdated traditions with the falacy of "Enforcement of uniformity and discipline."
If you have to rely on ancient traditions and regulations to feel respected you probably haven't earned your subordinates true respect.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 6:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 18:19:12 -0500

It hadn’t seemed that way in active infantry units but I’ve noticed some slipping. I think it comes down junior ncos and senior leaders. The junior ncos seem to be afraid to be hard chargers because their senior leadership won’t have their back when it comes down to it. This problem extends beyond just bearing and adherence to the CoC, but ttp’s, sop’s, etc. Everything. There’s no trust from the top down, and without that trust ncos aren’t using their influence or authority.

Response by SFC Manny Santana made Jan 26 at 2019 6:56 PM

SFC Manny Santana — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 18:56:32 -0500

In 1983 to 1985 the army did a huge rift. The same problem existed. The problem?? And overload of war time leadership in a peace time environment.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 26 at 2019 8:21 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 20:21:17 -0500

This new generation is generally not ambitious, want their way, pragmatic, don't want to work, and think they are always right even if they lack the experience.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 9:44 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 21:44:04 -0500

This isn't new. When I first enlisted, the senior NCOs and retirees said the same thing.
Set and enforce what you have authority and responsibility for in your span of control and influence. Teach your Soldiers what right looks like, and lead.
Continue to make on the spot corrections and enforcing standards.
Discipline and military bearing begins with the Cdr and 1SG, then PLs and PSGs, rh6en SLs and section chiefs, and finally every NCO.
If any NCO approached my CDR about something, the first question he would ask is, have you spoken with the 1SG. If no, he'd ask why they were talking to him, and send them to me. Same thing if a Soldier showed up at my door without going through their PSG. Even for the Soldiers who had additional duties. If the CDR and 1SG permit it, that's their leadership issue, and they'll have more BS to deal with because of it. There will be BS, because this leads to communications failures, task and mission failures, and morale problems.
With regard to general military discipline, if I saw a Soldier not standing at parade rest when talking to an NCO, both of them pushed. If another NCO was an onlooker, they pushed, too. I did that as a SL, PSG, and 1SG. That usually corrected that in a couple of weeks.
I recall walking into my orderly room before PT one Monday morning, and found a newly assigned SSG with his headgear on, and in need of a shave and a haircut. I normally replied "Carry On" before "At Ease" was completed. That morning, I didn't. The PLs sensed danger, and rushed into the XOs office. Everyone else got smoked. Later, I asked my most senior PSG why he hadn't fixed it. He told me that he knew I was going to go off, but he and the other PSGs wanted the new SL to get acclimated to the unit.
With regard to questioning orders. I never minded most questions when time permitted. Whenever I took over a position, I briefed my Soldiers how I did business, and what I expected, which follows:
1. If I have time to explain an order, I will.
2. If I don't have time to explain, carry it out, and raise questions later, unless there is a safety issue, which you will always raise without fear of any negative repercussions.
3. If I give you a task without specific instructions, complete it to the best of your ability, and I'll take any hits if anyone doesn't like it, including me.
4. If I give you specific instructions, follow them explicitly, and I'll take any hits.
5. If given a task with specific instructions, and you fail to follow those instructions without very good reason (failure to plan, failure to conduct PCI/PCCs will never be a good reason), you'll experience a significant emotional event and receive counseling/corrective training to help you perform better in the future.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 10:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 22:33:33 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member the question I pose to any body with an issue: What are you doing to effect the issue; both positive and negative?

If you can say that you are doing everything you can to positively impact YOUR sphere of influence, then keep on keeping on. If you can’t, then identify where you can and take decisive action, if you care enough to.

It’s easy to point a finger and say “that’s the problem.” It’s easy to have the “answer” to fix it. However, It’s a lot harder to actually hold yourself accountable and do something about it.

Not just for this situation- in general.

Good luck being the change SSG Private RallyPoint Member

Response by LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. made Jan 27 at 2019 2:38 PM

LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 14:38:57 -0500

When I was a young Devil Dog, we had it pounded into us. Military bearing is the basis of communication. In Marine Boot Camp, we did even approach the Drill Instructor or the Senior Drill Instructor without going through our Squad Leader, then the Platoon Guidon Bearer to the D I or the Senior D I. At each point we came to attention requested permission to speak to S L/ Guide/D I . After given permission and told to stand at ease. Fast forward to reporting out in the fleet. When reporting to our commanding officer we set the expectations of our conduct as Marines in the eyes of our Bn, Co,Pl commanders our Platoon Sergeants and even Squad Leaders and even our Fire Team Leaders! She Marines are promoted to Cpl and Sgt, they go to an N C O Academy, even if they are not in Combat Arms they learn to lead a Squad and Platoon in the field and are re-aquatinted with Drill and Ceramony, including the manual of arms for the sword. Marine NCOs are still authorized to be armed with a sword.
Don’t know if the Army has NCO type Schoo or not, if they don’t it might be a good idea.
I’ve seen and heard a lot of other military branches and members make fun of the way we Marines are trained in Boot Camp. Combat is a Harsh, Chaotic environment! You have to be able to operate under extreme pressure, the old saying is true, “The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war!” We start in a stressful environment and continue to train under that type of environment. Passing the Company Gunnery Sergeants Office in the morning, I never saw the Platoon Sergeants lounging around drinking coffee and B Sing, they were standing at Parade Rest while the Top gave the word of the day before morning formation.
I guess by setting the expectations on the first day of Basic Training in the Corps, and carrying it on throughout the careers of each Marine whether 4 years or 20+ military bearing is still a major part of Marine Corps life.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jan 27 at 2019 6:33 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:33:09 -0500

My platoon is not a democracy, but I do mentor soldiers so that I can replicate strong and decisive leadership under stress. But, once a decision is made, all of my soldiers understand the only choice they have is whether they like it or not. That being said, I don't do stupid crap, and make sure there is purpose for whatever I expect of them. At the core is respect.

Response by SPC Sean Ramirez made Jan 27 at 2019 7:14 PM

SPC Sean Ramirez — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:14:32 -0500

I noticed the same thing when I was active army from 94 to 98....as an NCO it is sometimes necessary to remind soldiers with some "corrective training " to remind them what military bearing and respect for rank is.

Response by SFC Robert Maldonado made Jan 28 at 2019 11:57 AM

SFC Robert Maldonado — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 11:57:24 -0500

1sg/Cmdr should ask soldier if he informed his squad ldr or section sgt of issue if not called them in there to listen or have them go to them 1st let nco do his job taking care of the soldier watch your lane

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 1:45 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 13:45:27 -0500

I don't feel like those are the makings of a true Soldier. If that's what makes standards and dicipline to you I think you should reevaluate yourself.

Response by MSG Roger Billings made Jan 28 at 2019 2:52 PM

MSG Roger Billings — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 14:52:10 -0500

Nope I was in for forty yes (75-15) and saw the decline. It sickened me so glad I am retired

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Jan 28 at 2019 3:06 PM

MSG Scott McBride — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:06:18 -0500

BLUF: NCOs enforce standards. The longer the cycle of indiscipline, the more difficult it will be to recover. It starts with 1SG backing his/her subordinate leaders. Keep doing what your doing.

Response by HA Jace Gallagher made Jan 28 at 2019 3:15 PM

HA Jace Gallagher — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:15:41 -0500

For the most part I agree that military bearing needs to be strictly instilled, but there are occasions where a chain of command is so bad as to be useless, like the ones at the hospital at Fort Belvoir when I was in. Sometimes if you get that Sergeant or Petty Officer that wants you to fail for no good reason you have to go around them. Because of repeated instants of bad chains of command. I believe the military needs to evolve and have better measures in place where, when a junior and NCO have personal beef, the NCO's word is fact checked. I believe chains of command are getting worse, which is killing military bearing

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 7:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:15:28 -0500

Not all traditions are useful, there is a reason we dont sacrifice virgins anymore.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 7:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 19:37:54 -0500

It is my opinion that this problem is starting at basic training. I am not saying the drills aren’t doing their jobs I’m saying their hands are tied now on what they can and can’t do to the soldier. I remember when I was lower enlisted I did what I was told. It seems now soldiers always have to know why. I’m not saying this is right but at one time I was having issues doing what I was told, my Plt Sgt gave me a quick wall to wall and I had no other problems after that.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Jan 28 at 2019 9:22 PM

MAJ Steve Daugherty — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 21:22:37 -0500

I haven’t been in an active duty environment in a few decades but I remember that for some things the first stop in chain of command was Top. Ordinary stuff was your platoon or section leaders . So some flexibility was always there depending on the situation and environment.

Response by Cpl Jim Canning made Jan 28 at 2019 11:26 PM

Cpl Jim Canning — Mon, 28 Jan 2019 23:26:26 -0500

No, I noticed this before I got out in 2006. By then it was nothing like when I went in, in 1980.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jan 29 at 2019 1:59 AM

Cpl Rc Layne — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 01:59:42 -0500

If you see behavior on the part of your troops that is improper, and you don't deal with it, are you then endorsing the behavior? To quote Sun Tzu, "There are no bad soldiers, only bad generals."

Response by SFC William Evans made Jan 29 at 2019 2:22 AM

SFC William Evans — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 02:22:49 -0500

Don’t lower your Standards make others come to you

Response by Lt Col George Roll made Jan 29 at 2019 8:49 PM

Lt Col George Roll — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 20:49:33 -0500

No. I retired in 92 since that time I have noticed when coming on Eglin AFB the AF Security Forces personnel have me stop, display my ID card ( which identifies me as a O-5, Ltc.) After closely examining the card they wave me thrugh sometimes they say "have a nice day" but the customary "SIR" is not spoken otften the required Hand Salute is also skipped, even if I am weari g my flight suit and flight jacket with Ltc. Insignia displayed as I am a member of Civil Air Patrol flying missions from Eglin.
Often during the time I am having my ID checked, the other SEcurity Force Personnel are slouching in the guard house and shooting the breeze with the Airman checking my card.
It seems providing courtious service and security to the base.
I don't know how they would be in a combat situation but if their conduct at the gate indicates how they see their duties, I doubt they will be very effective. I blame the middle "managers" ( used to be called the NCO Corps)

Response by SFC Charlie Broadus II made Jan 30 at 2019 10:59 AM

SFC Charlie Broadus II — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 10:59:51 -0500

That is TOTALLY a leadership problem, from start to finish for a soldier if rules are not enforced from the start then the soldier thinks this is the way it is and when he gets rank the cycle continues

Response by Sgt Dennis Gray made Sep 10 at 2019 4:46 PM

Sgt Dennis Gray — Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:46:53 -0400

If I had taken a question straight to the CO, his first question was going to be " why didn't you use the chain of command?" And there better be a damned good reason. Not that I ever did that. But EVERY CO I ever had gave the same line so I never questioned it. If the CO wants to be a buddy and help everyone with their problems that is on him.

Response by SSG Tom Montgomery made Sep 11 at 2019 3:41 PM

SSG Tom Montgomery — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:41:13 -0400

I see this as well. My biggest problem is the questioning of orders. A soldiers life may well be on the line and questioning orders could get them killed. I hope that when they reach war zones they snap out of it.