Is my award an MSM or an ARCOM if the Brigade Commander signed it saying to downgrade it, but the "Approved Award" says MSM?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 20:36:17 -0400

I have a DA Form 638 written for an MSM. The brigade commander signed it saying to downgrade it. However, the "Approved Award" says MSM. It has an order number and is signed by the Deputy G1. I have never seen this happen before, and my S1 clerks have been split in their answers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 9:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:28:50 -0400

Congrats on your MSM!

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Mar 20 at 2021 9:37 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:37:36 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Were you not issued an actual medal with paperwork? If not request a one time issue and see what you receive.

Response by SGM Jeff Bullard made Mar 20 at 2021 9:39 PM

SGM Jeff Bullard — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:39:33 -0400

No matter what the Chain of Command recommends, the award much go all the way to the approving authority. So if the final authority says MSM then it’s an MSM.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 10:02 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:02:28 -0400

What's disappointing about this whole story is that your S1 section is split on the the answer.
There's only one answer here, what does it say on block 26 d. of the DA 638, and what does AR 600-8-22 say about that?

TL;DR, unless the CG has delegated, in writing, authority for BDE CDRs to disapprove an MSM and approve downgrade award of ARCOM without forwarding, (and I have never heard of a CG doing that), then MSMs go to the CG for approval or downgrade to ARCOM.

If block 26 d. says approved, and that person's first name is "general", then it's approved as an MSM.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 10:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:23:18 -0400

If the brigade commander is not the approving authority, he can recommend a downgrade but does not have the final say, only the approving authority has the final say.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 10:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:28:45 -0400

It’s an MSM. The approving authority for the award is the only one who can downgrade it. Unless that authority delegated their authority to the lower lever. Bottom line is you were awarded an MSM. Congrats!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 10:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:52:33 -0400

If the order is for an MSM, you have an MSM.

Response by SSG Jer Green made Mar 20 at 2021 11:21 PM

SSG Jer Green — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:21:05 -0400

If I’m not mistaking the final approval of an MSM is not an 0-5. But, I guess it’s possible that has been changed since I was on active duty.

Response by SSG Jer Green made Mar 20 at 2021 11:22 PM

SSG Jer Green — Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:22:29 -0400

I meant, is not an 0-6.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 21 at 2021 2:13 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 02:13:49 -0400

If you were given an MSM certificate with a Order number then it’s approved. It’s up to the approval authority, which is a two star. If the O6 commander recommended downgrade and now it’s going to the approval authority the award will likely be downgraded to an ARCOM.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Mar 21 at 2021 2:35 AM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 02:35:54 -0400

Go with the order

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2021 3:03 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 03:03:49 -0400

The Approving Authority is the GO in your chain. Your BDE CDR recommended downgrade. So, if your CG marked Approved and they signed it, then you now have an MSM.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Mar 21 at 2021 8:57 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 08:57:03 -0400

What grade do BDE commanders have currently? I know when I started with the 199th Inf BDE back in 1966, it was BG*. While still in country it was downgraded to COL. The 199th is at Benning now, replaced the 197th, I'd guess. What grade is the Commander now?

*After BG Bond was KIA,

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2021 9:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:39:02 -0400

Brigade commanders are not the approving authority for MSM’s

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2021 1:46 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 13:46:52 -0400

If the DA Form 638 was submitted as an MSM and the block for the Deputy G1 is signed and checked as "approval", then the award was approved for MSM.
The Bde Cdr can recommend a downgrade to ARCOM, but the Deputy G1 has final authority.
I had a similar situation where my 1st recommendation for an MSM was recommended for a downgrade to an ARCOM (the BDE CSM and I had a difference of opinion on how to deal with a subordinate of mine-the BDE CDR allowed the CSM to make judgements on NCO awards). In that case, the BDE CDR signed the award and never sent it to the G1.

Response by SGM Jeffrey Hall made Mar 21 at 2021 4:32 PM

SGM Jeffrey Hall — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 16:32:29 -0400

The Bde commander makes a recommendation. The approving official does not have to follow that recommendation.

Response by MSG Terry Lingle made Mar 21 at 2021 7:11 PM

MSG Terry Lingle — Sun, 21 Mar 2021 19:11:12 -0400

It depends on who the “approval authority” is in the reg. I doubt that it’s your brigade commander unless he’s a general of some level. It’s most likely a division commander level approval and if you have orders saying you have an MSM, you have an MSM. Your brigade commander made a recommendation which appears to have been overruled by the approval authority. Having said this, I should point out that if your brigade commander goes directly to the approval authority and argues for his position, the approval could be rescinded. I received two MSMs, both of which were approved by general officers. In wartime the approval authority can be delegated to a subordinate commander. Your S1 should probably check with G1, or maybe you should just tread lightly until you PCS, ETS or retire. Authority to wear the award is whatever is documented in your military personnel records or on your DD 214.

Response by SFC Dennis Rodriguez made Mar 22 at 2021 12:25 AM

SFC Dennis Rodriguez — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 00:25:56 -0400

It's an ARCOM. Better to hear it from me here and not when you go in front of a board while wearing the wrong award. When I was in MSMs were approved by a General. It may have changed though, but still, I think you know the answer.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Mar 22 at 2021 2:34 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:34:05 -0400

What does the award order say, who signed it, and what were you presented with?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2021 9:38 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:38:02 -0400

Please stop confusing this soldier. Regardless what the intermediate commander recommends... it’s what the approving authority approves. In this case, it’s crystal clear, it’s an MSM.

Response by CSM Jim Corrin made Mar 29 at 2021 10:50 AM

CSM Jim Corrin — Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:50:27 -0400

A DA 638 with all the correct approving authorities signatures is the final answer to your question.

Response by CPT Cavett Ishihara made May 31 at 2021 10:28 AM

CPT Cavett Ishihara — Mon, 31 May 2021 10:28:38 -0400

Years later you will ask yourself what was important. Awards on your uniform aren't worth a burnt bridge or sour relationship with the 1-Shop. When you go to retire, every "thank you" to those guys will pay off big time. Don't get caught in the now when someting larger is at stake.