Is my NCO allowed to refuse to give my CAC back?

2022-03-07T14:00:45-05:00

He asked if he could pull my CAC so that he could use my computer. I gave him verbal authorization and asked for my CAC. He told me he is going to hold on to it jokingly. He stated I could have it back when I did something for him. I was busy doing something that was of high priority. I respectfully asked for my CAC card back and he told it was unsecured so he’s keeping it. After about two hours of constantly asking for it back he still had not given it back. I went back to my work station and pulled his CAC because it was actually unsecured. I went to him and asked for my CAC back in exchange for his because it was a serious issue when he had a joking demeanor. He told me that I can not touch his CAC because he is an NCO and gave me a “direct order” to give it back. I dropped the CAC and went straight to my NCOIC to report the incident. Now the NCOIC is forcing the NCO to recommend me for UCMJ even though the NCO admitted that he was just hazing me. He said it was just a joke and did not realize I was being serious. UCMJ for violating a direct order from a Non Commissioned Officer. What can I do in this situation?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2022 2:05 PM

2022-03-07T14:05:07-05:00

Your NCO sounds like a dick for starters.

You were in the right because he left HIS CAC unsecured. You didn't as it sounds like you were right there next to the computer and he just wanted to use it. So you asked him to hand you your card so he could use it.

Your NCOIC also sounds like a dick. Recommend you for UCMJ? I mean should you have dropped it probably not. I'm not saying the attitude was unwarranted...

I highly doubt anyone is recommending your for UCMJ and your commander would laugh them out the door if they brought this to him/her. Your 1SG should laugh it out the door too.

That sounds like a lot of counterproductive leadership (what the Army used to call toxic leadership). Did you get your CAC back?

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 7 at 2022 3:32 PM

2022-03-07T15:32:41-05:00

This is completely insane if true. There is no merit for UCMJ, again if the accounts are true. You need to get an office call with your PLT Sgt., platoon leader and the 1SG. This will give the 1SG what they need to take a more directed action toward these Sgt.’s (not NCO’s).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2022 3:57 PM

2022-03-07T15:57:24-05:00

Your commander is going to laugh in the face of your NCOIC if they actually try to recommend you for UCMJ.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 7 at 2022 6:52 PM

2022-03-07T18:52:56-05:00

Always remember that in the Army (and in the civilian world, since you are ETSing soon) everyone has a boss. Even if it is the Commanding General or the Army Chief of Staff. Everyone has a boss. And if whoever it is screw up to such a degree that the only option is to talk to their boss.... Then you talk to their boss.

In this case, I would say an open door with 1SG or PL.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Mar 8 at 2022 11:17 AM

2022-03-08T11:17:34-05:00

An NCO can give you a LAWFUL order; IF it's indeed lawful. An OFFICER can give you a Direct Order. It's sort of semantics, but it's accurate; but a lot of troops confuse lawful vs direct.
As for punitive action ... I really don't know about CAC cards other than my sons had them. If indeed they are required to be secured, it sounds like the NCO whose card was left unsecured is the one in violation. I do NOT know if any NCO can ask for, and/or use, your CAC but there's probably an AR that would clarify that.

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 8 at 2022 12:09 PM

2022-03-08T12:09:37-05:00

I would call their BLUF. Sounds like all around a bunch of grab ass BS.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2022 7:09 PM

2022-03-11T19:09:49-05:00

Whichever JAG office that sees that recommendation is going to laugh behind closed doors if they receive this. Additionally I would be willing to bet the documentation for this incident will be virtually non-existent so it would get kicked back to the commander with reasons as to why making the NCO chain look bad.

I've seen enough 1SG/CSM's tear into NCO's for playing games and sending up crayon drawn recommendations for UCMJ or other counselings that get denied by a BLO or OSJA that usually ends in LOR's, counselings, or retraining of the NCO's.

All that aside though...

AR 600-20, 4-19 should be an interesting read regarding situations like this or similar to it.

Write a timeline of events while this information is still fresh in your head with a list of persons with rank and position who were involved. Prepare a written statement of events in memorandum format (see AR 25-50 for examples) to give to your CSM when utilizing their open door policy. It's possible that you may have to submit a sworn statement (DA Form 2823), but with the memo that might not be necessary. If it does happen and you're not a good writer, request to fill out the form on a computer and print it.

You're on your way out, if they're playing stupid games with you they're playing stupid games with others. You've got nothing to lose by reporting their conduct if you are in fact being truthful.