Is taking apart a soldier's ACH when it has been left unattended hazing or corrective action?

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:39:12 -0400

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 10:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 10:50:40 -0400

Disassembling a Soldiers ACH because they left it unattended, IMHO, does not constitute Corrective Action. Now, assigning that Soldier to PCC/PCI (say, for a week or every time y'all go to the field or to the range) other Soldiers in the section/squad to ensure everyone has their ACH, that would be a good Corrective Action.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 29 at 2022 2:08 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:08:49 -0400

I don't really think it is either.

Corrective action has to address the deficiency. Reassembling the ACH does nothing to address the Soldier's failure to secure it.

But I wouldn't really consider it hazing, either. Putting the ACH back together does not seem to be particularly time-consuming, arduous, or embarrassing. I don't think any Soldier is going to suffer any sort of trauma - physical, mental, or emotional - having to spend 2 minutes putting the ACH back together. Heck, I took my OWN ACH apart on multiple occasions to clean it.

I wouldn't say it was hazing, but I wouldn't say there was any value in it, either. And it seems pretty uncreative, too. If you are going to get creative, make it memorable (within left and right limits) - those are the lessons that really stick.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 2:09 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:09:43 -0400

Since anyone with a gerber or two quarters could put it back together again, pointless fuckery and a waste of time. Hazing/Bullying? I doubt it would pass muster when it hit the CO and JAG if it were a singular event with no follow on actions.

Have the Soldier disassemble and reassemble it as apart of a drill with their team or squad along with explaining the necessity of ACH cleanliness, maintenance, and necessity of use? That sounds like corrective training.

If you want to play "fuck-fuck games" with your joes, go ahead and play, just be prepared when a return shot comes back your way if you take it too far or form a habit of it. Corrective Training is supposed to be training that corrects a deficiency and so it has to have value and purpose towards that deficiency. Soldier forgot their helmet, make them understand why it's such an important issue rather than make them think, "My NCO's are just being dicks".

Story time as it relates to this issue.

I was a PV2 at NTC and hadn't slept more that 2-3 hours in a 24 hour period, react to contact happens at maybe 0200. Roll out of my sleep system, IOTV on, SAW up, ammo bag and mask on, assault pack with MOPP4 and a run to my sector in the dark following the faint glow of red light. I get to my sector just fine, prone out, weapon up, and I forgot my nods. I still engage, targeting muzzle flashes, but I can't use my NVG's to communicate enemy movement.

My SGT knew I had left my nods because normally I communicate more about movement. He knew that because he knew me. He also knew we were all tired as hell but that wasn't an excuse. So we went over correct mounting, usage, battery care, and of course 550 wrapping my gear better. Or he could have just hid my stuff or disassembled my gear, etc. Which action do you think I would have actually learned from better?

Response by CSM William Everroad made Mar 29 at 2022 3:28 PM

CSM William Everroad — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:28:54 -0400

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member, Lots of great replies that say the same thing.

If this is your idea, don't do it. Take the advice in regulatory guidance and train your soldiers the importance of accountability by explaining the "why" and base your corrective training around that. Disassembling an ACH that was left unattended only serves to reinforce the ability to assemble the thing back together. The "why" in that case is if you leave your ACH unattended someone is going to mess with it, which doesn't enforce the importance of having it and wearing it. The Soldier will just get good at putting it back together. Personally, I like MSG Private RallyPoint Member's idea of "assigning that Soldier to PCC/PCI (say, for a week or every time y'all go to the field or to the range) other Soldiers in the section/squad to ensure everyone has their ACH". It also has the side benefit of preparing the Soldier for leadership responsibility.

If it happened to one of your Soldiers, make a big deal about it; professionally. Too often I see stuff like this happen and junior NCOs "let it go" because a peer did it. Don't let other people train your Soldiers.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 29 at 2022 4:55 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:55:49 -0400

Not at all, hopefully they get more than just disassembly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 5:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:06:35 -0400

I agree with the anonymous 1SG. Nothing scares a Soldier more than standing on the 1SG's carpet knowing they messed up. Really, it's as simple as this: Grab your ACH and go see the 1SG at 0900. Be prepared for sweating bullets.

Yeah, you could disassemble it. Some pieces will probably get lost that will take you days to replace and be more of a pain to you than them. Nothing wrong with it, just as a future SSG you need to expand your toolbox past that of a Buck SGT.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 6:40 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:40:10 -0400

What do you think?

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 30 at 2022 1:56 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 01:56:14 -0400

Will, an azzhole could bring the SM up for an Art 15. instead. As an NCO what do you think? Possible ruin a career with UCMJ, or some minor corrective action>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2022 9:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:01:06 -0400

I personally think it is just a waste of time either way... what action of the SM is this correcting? If there is no training or operational value; it is pointless BS. It would be better to have them do some sort of extra detail, or be responsible to conduct all PCC/PCI's for the squad for an FTX. I get the importance of gear and accountability; but there has to be a desired reaction from the corrective action or it is just FF Games.... Also, what happens when that same SM losses a screw and now the ACH is not usable and negatively effects field training? Think through the solution.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 30 at 2022 7:03 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:03:27 -0400

Stop losing your ACH big Sarge ;o)

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 31 at 2022 8:43 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 08:43:31 -0400

"YES", In Fact They Are.
Actually, I Never Understood Hazing As It Accomplishes Nothing Anyway.
Just A Bunch Of Immature Kids Screwing Around Not Realizing It's Stupid As Well As Dangerous,
Nor Does It Prove ANY Of Them Are More Than Kids, But Definitely Doesn't Make Them Men..

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Mar 31 at 2022 4:47 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:47:06 -0400

Depends:
In a training environment I'd go with it's a darn good way of getting the point across about securing your gear or keeping it on your head .

In a combat zone I'd go with WTF were you thinking? Snuffy should have had their gear with them but you just created a worse cluster since it's out of service.

Hazing would have been painting it fluorescent orange with line marker paint and making snuffy run around chanting they were a dumb ass.