Is the awarding of the Meritorious Service Medal being watered down due to lack of standardization across the services?

2017-07-25T00:26:14-04:00

I recently attended an Air Force Boot Camp Graduation and I saw an Air Force SSgt (E-5) and an Army SSgt (E-6) each wearing an Meritorious Service Medal (Both with less than 12 years service). Now I know there are some difference between branches of service, but this was very surprising considering in the Marine Corps there is a very high standard required to receive the award. Opinions please.

Response by TSgt David L. made Jul 25 at 2017 12:31 AM

2017-07-25T00:31:00-04:00

It happens, GySgt John O'Donnell. It depends on where they work and what their job is. When I got to Germany an E-3 female on the Wing Commander's staff had an MSM. We always wondered what miracles were performed. Not everyone in any service holds the standards I guess.

Response by SCPO Carl Wayne Boss made Jul 25 at 2017 12:48 AM

2017-07-25T00:48:12-04:00

Perhaps the "Give the Young 'ne a Trophy just for participating" has made its way into the Services? It's pretty much permeated every other aspect of American Society these days.

In case youse haven't noticed, in an ever widening profile of areas, that used to require a pretty impressive array of standards have all been pretty much reduced to allow participation of various & sundry what used to be called "protected classes". I've been Retired since 2006, I don't know what you're "allowed" to call them these days?

"Standards" in most areas aren't what they were 20, 30, 40 years ago.

There may come a day when they're issued along with their duffle bag & other accoutrements of the initial uniform & equipment package, kind of like the National Defense Service Medal.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 2:20 AM

2017-07-25T02:20:15-04:00

I was very surprised by this as well when stationed at Misawa AFB. In the Navy MSM usually only go to COs(O4-O6) and CMCs as an EOT award. E8-E9 merit a Navy COM, E7 can go either NAM or COM, especially if the CO is an O5 as an O6 is required to approve COMs in the Navy. There are a couple Chiefs and Senior Chiefs with MSM and higher awards at my command. They all received them while attached to the Army during IA assignments.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 3:43 AM

2017-07-25T03:43:04-04:00

As a personnel officer who see a myriad of MSMs, the standards have been "watered" down. For other branches, depending on the level you work for and your rank, an MSM may be warranted. For soldiers, I have seen some BS write ups or fluffed up citations to make it seem as though troops have walked on water when they really showed up for work and left on time. I agree that this award should be for those who go above and beyond, show marked zeal and intelligence. But it is true that the " everyone's a winner" mentality has ushered its way into the awards process. And it sucks to have to process that garbage.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jul 25 at 2017 7:09 AM

2017-07-25T07:09:02-04:00

Yes I would say it is

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Jul 25 at 2017 7:43 AM

2017-07-25T07:43:00-04:00

Yes, the examples you saw were very likely examples of the MSM being watered down. Given the breadth and scope of responsibility given to E-5s and E-6s in garrison or on staff, it would be a very rare set of events which would enable them to have such a broad and lasting impact that SHOULD be required to earn an MSM. Many O-4s/O-5s/O-6s have also been given un-earned MSMs as a PCS/PCA medal, and all of them are due to commanding officers who want to be nice rather than uphold standards.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 9:00 AM

2017-07-25T09:00:33-04:00

Are you sure it wasn't a good conduct medal?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 9:36 AM

2017-07-25T09:36:51-04:00

Did you ask them why they received their MSMs? What else was on their uniforms? In your picture, it looks like you have an MSM. What did you do to get your MSM?

Sure, it is possible that some higher-up gave it to them as a prize for serving on his or her staff, but why assume it was awarded to someone who didn't deserve it?

Here is the criteria for it: "On or after September 11, 2001, for outstanding non-combat meritorious achievement or service in a non-combat or combat area."

As you know, the fight has changed and people find themselves in situations that they otherwise normally wouldn't. It is entirely possible that these people performed their duties exceptionally and were awarded for it. My ribbon rack would be confusing to people because my highest award is an ARCOM I got as an E-4 while doing LLVI with 10th Mountain in Afghanistan during Operations Mountain Lion and Mountain Thrust in 2006. Did I join the Navy to ruck in the mountains of Southern Afghanistan with Army infantry? No. Did it happen? Yes.
In my career field (Cryptology) it was not uncommon to see sailors walking around with higher awards (and from different services) than you would normally see because of the opportunities that job provides. The same could apply to this situation.

On the flip-side, I have seen some people get rewards for ridiculous things as well.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2008-title32-vol3/xml/CFR-2008-title32-vol3-sec578-18.xml

CFR-2008-title32-vol3-sec578-18.xml

(a) Criteria. The Meritorious Service Medal was established by Executive Order 11448, January 16, 1969 as amended by Executive Order 12312, July 2, 1981. It is awarded to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or to any member of the Armed Forces of a friendly foreign nation who, has distinguished himself or herself by outstanding meritorious achievement or service under the following circumstances:

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 9:42 AM

2017-07-25T09:42:24-04:00

I really think it depends on the Leadership to uphold or water down. Take myself, as an example. I was placed in the Detachment Sergeant position (SFC/E-7) as a SGT/E-5. I've been in this position for three years. In that time, I have worked hard to improve Readiness (both medical and physical), PME/NOCES/OES attendance with ZERO no shows and 100% graduation rate of my Soldiers that attended, corrected and resolved thousands and thousands of dollars worth of supply and equipment. While my previous and current Commander are working on an MSM for me, I am not truly holding my breath to receive it. It would be nice, but I'm not counting on it. I have yet to ever receive any kind of PCS award in all of my time in the Army. Why break tradition now.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 10:50 AM

2017-07-25T10:50:29-04:00

The MSM does not have a rank or TIS requirement despite the fact that it is normally awarded to senior ranks. Awards should be based on actions not ranks so I would say that certain people receiving BSMs in Afghanistan and Iraq while their subordinates received achievement medals would be more of an example of watering down the award, if both never left base or fired their weapon.

Response by SSG Ray Murphy made Jul 25 at 2017 11:13 AM

2017-07-25T11:13:28-04:00

So, you're saying that the award should be based on rank, rather than merit?

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Jul 25 at 2017 11:14 AM

2017-07-25T11:14:03-04:00

As I'm sure you realize there are set criteria to be awarded the MSM and it did have to be approved by some Command 0-6 or above. Heck I know of Units that were deployed to Iraq and most Officers received a Bronze Star including those that spent most of their time in an AC TOC with very few if any enlisted being awarded this Medal! Guess it depend on the Command.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 25 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-07-25T11:20:23-04:00

Gunny GySgt John O'Donnell "considering in the Marine Corps there is a very high standard required to receive the award"

I KNOW you know this, but as consideration for other readers...Lets keep in mind the "Marine Corps" does not recommend nor approve an MSM, individuals with personal beliefs standards and values do. And as such, yes, some Marines receive an MSM for service I would consider not worthy of the award..I also met some Marines that DID NOT receive the MSM and I felt they should have,,,, but alas, the individual commander a human with human thoughts, individual beliefs and standards felt otherwise.
I also agree awarding the MSM to a relatively young, and only moderately experienced NCO is likely inappropriate though I would have to review the background of that SM and the 638 before being willing to make that call.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jul 25 at 2017 11:26 AM

2017-07-25T11:26:57-04:00

GySgt John O'Donnell I Don't Know the Current Criteria but it was usually awarded at Retirement when I Retired.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 11:51 AM

2017-07-25T11:51:44-04:00

For many years, BSMs were handed out quite a bit for EOT awards. It seems that those are being cut back in favor of a lower-presidense award. I've seen E5s receive MSMs who were very much deserving, and E4s who should have but didn't for that reason. Awards should be driven based on achievement and not rank, but as they say, it is what it is.

Response by SFC Michael Spellman made Jul 25 at 2017 11:53 AM

2017-07-25T11:53:18-04:00

Unless there has been a change to the regulation, there is no regulatory guidance that says a service member must be of a certain rank or have a certain amount of time in service to qualify for an award. Yes, it does seem a bit odd to see someone below the rank of E-7 wearing an MSM, but there are many reasons why someone would. In my opinion, all awards have been watered down and handed out like candy.....it's not just the MSM!

Response by Maj Daniel Pempel made Jul 25 at 2017 12:02 PM

2017-07-25T12:02:07-04:00

What you saw regarding the Airman is out of the ordinary. It is almost impossible for anyone below E-7 to get an MSM in the Air Force. Even awarding it to a retiring TSgt isn't very common. There are plenty of junior MSgts in the Air Force without one.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Jul 25 at 2017 12:04 PM

2017-07-25T12:04:58-04:00

In my 30 years of service, the MSM is one medal that I do not think is inflated. It requires a 2-star GO commander approval. So I would guess that is an Army SSG was wearing one, he/she probably did something to earn that since it requires that level of approval. The exception I could see is if that person served on a GO staff and was taken care of that way.

Response by SrA Aaron Flanigan made Jul 25 at 2017 12:17 PM

2017-07-25T12:17:10-04:00

When I was in the Air Force (20 years ago), the MSM was really only seen on SNCOs. You would have to be one HOT airman to get that award at TSgt or below. It was often given to a retiring MSgt.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 12:25 PM

2017-07-25T12:25:44-04:00

True story. The only Marines I've seen get that award in their units were a SgtMaj, MGySgt, or a retiring E-8. I haven't been around enough soldiers, sailors, or airmen to witness anyone of lesser grade with it on, so I haven't a clue if it's a common thing in the other branches. I will say that NAMs (Navy/Marine Corps Achievement Medal, for the other branches in here) seem to be handed out like candy, depending on your MOS though.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jul 25 at 2017 12:32 PM

2017-07-25T12:32:04-04:00

I've seen where awards have been given out like candy from a bag. I got out in 2004, at that time I saw a LTC get a BSM and was relieved twice from his job down range. As the SNCO of our unit, I was ask for input for awards, my list was very short and was never ask again. When we got back, everyone either got a BSM or an ARCOM, which I thought was bogus. The award I have the most pride in is an AAM. All members of my 12B squad (I was sqd leader), it because we came in first in our BN competition. My next prized one was a MSM my CDR put me in for was for leading the unit, developing and writing OPORDS for on the range CTT testing (among other things). The BSM I got, to be honest I never really know why I got it. There was a write up, but never seen it.
To me awards have gotten too much like "everyone" gets an award just for being there. I really hope the system gets straighten out.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 1:18 PM

2017-07-25T13:18:29-04:00

What we are talking about here is the difference in culture between the services. One service might be more stingy, while others more liberal.
What is the case though is that each service has in their respective regulation guidance, authority, and some semblance of criteria for award. Since the MSM crosses the services, the criteria was set by Congress and Executive Order and reads more or less the same:
From AR 600-8-22 para 3-16
3–16. Meritorious Service Medal
a. The MSM was established by EO 11448, 16 January 1969 as amended by EO 12312, 2 July 1981, as amended by EO 13286, 28 March 2003. It is awarded to any Servicemember of the Armed Forces of the United States or to any member of the armed forces of a friendly foreign nation who has distinguished himself or herself by outstanding meritorious achievement or service.
b. After 16 January 1969 but prior to 11 September 2001, the MSM is authorized to be awarded only for meritorious service or achievement while serving in a noncombat area.
c. Effective 11 September 2001 to a date to be determined, the DCS, G–1 granted an exception to policy to award the MSM in a combat theater for noncombat meritorious achievement and service for the Global War on Terrorism era. This exception does not authorize the MSM to be used as an upgrade or downgrade to or from a recommended BSM.
d. An MSM recommendation that is downgraded will be approved as an ARCOM.

So the takeaway here is that the MSM is for "better" than an ARCOM, but "less" than an LOM.
Now, that allows for a wide range of latitude for an approval authority - a Flag Officer in all services - to bestow this award on assigned personnel.

Ultimately, if you have a beef, it is with the Approval Authority, not with the service or the military as a whole. I would agree that SSG (Army) guy and SGT (Air Force) guy probably did not meet the same test as some retiring E-8 or O-6 PCSing from BDE Command, but some General Officer thinks differently.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 1:20 PM

2017-07-25T13:20:44-04:00

The MSM has become a standardized EOT award for fobbits. Even the BSM has been watered down. I served alongside a unit that knew what EOT awards would be awarded, before they did their right seat ride...

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jul 25 at 2017 2:06 PM

2017-07-25T14:06:44-04:00

The first half of my career in the signals intelligence field, one of the E-4s in my section put together his own analysis of what our mission had collected over time. He presented it like a master's thesis. His primary job was listening, not analyzing. He did a great job & the study he did went quite far. Because of the intelligence impact that had on our mission, he ended up getting an MSM. I know explaining MI stuff to folks is difficult for folks to understand but the award was well deserved.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 2:22 PM

2017-07-25T14:22:11-04:00

I don't believe it is a watered down award. I didn't see a lot of soldiers wearing the MSM, let me rephrase that, I didn't see many EM's or NCO's wearing the MSN. It takes much more that accomplishing your duties to get the award. Now I do admit that my last award of the MSN, which isn't in my photo here was sent to me after my retirement, I didn't think that I did anything out of the norm to receive the award. Being last duty station and retirement

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 2:51 PM

2017-07-25T14:51:10-04:00

Respect what each branch determines. Get to know the person. Understand the circumstances in an individuals life during the time it was given. Humble your thoughts about any medal. Be patient. Be the best person you can. Read up on the goals for them, set them in your evaluation as a goal. Peace.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 3:41 PM

2017-07-25T15:41:37-04:00

I guess I have trouble with the statement/question since we don't know anything about the background of either individual and why they received the medals. I guess the assumption is they couldn't have done anything to warrant the MSM because of their rank and time in service.

Response by TSgt Jamie Boylan made Jul 25 at 2017 3:47 PM

2017-07-25T15:47:08-04:00

So what you are saying is that no matter what an E-5 or E-6 does, he or she could never earn that award? That is BS, if someone has earned a award, no matter what rank he or she is, then they should receive it. I will not say that the AF SSgt or Army SSG should not have received it, because I did not serve with them. I do believe to base what award someone gets purely on rank/TIS is complete BS.

Response by SGT Eliyahu Rooff made Jul 25 at 2017 5:00 PM

2017-07-25T17:00:14-04:00

I've long felt that awards of many decorations depend on politics, prejudices and connections of the people involved. While I was at Fort Campbell, I knew a Colonel who had received an ARCOM for performing duties that would have guaranteed a Legion of Merit had she been a male surgeon instead of female. For an even more egregious example, read the history behind the 50-year-late award of the Medal of Honor to Tibor Rubin. He was recommended for the medal on four different occasions for four separate acts of heroism only to have the paperwork put in the circular file by an antisemitic First Sergeant. Perhaps part of the solution might be to have blind processing of recommendations -- that is, with identifying data redacted from the paperwork so that the focus remains on the actions and performance being reviewed and not on the identity of the person performing them.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Jul 25 at 2017 5:02 PM

2017-07-25T17:02:11-04:00

As a E-5, I received an MSM for my last deployment. I ran the S3 of a Civil Affair company, and set the standard for how its done for the rest of the battalion.

Response by CW3 Jared Hickox made Jul 25 at 2017 5:51 PM

2017-07-25T17:51:07-04:00

Unfortunately, the only requirement for an MSM is the following: "a. The MSM was established by EO 11448, 16 January 1969 as amended by EO 12312, 2 July 1981, as amended by EO 13286, 28 March 2003. It is awarded to any Servicemember of the Armed Forces of the United States or to any
member of the armed forces of a friendly foreign nation who has distinguished himself or herself by outstanding meritorious achievement or service."

Some units, typically BDE and higher, have SOP's which outline additional requirements. For instance, to get an MSM in one of my previous units, you had to show significant contributions outside your higher organizations. Example: Soldier who belongs to A. Company had to show they had a significant impact on another unit or group of units within the Division, but outside their Brigade.

I've seen other units give MSM's to Soldiers who won BDE or DIV level Soldier of the Month Boards.

Response by GySgt Bill Smith made Jul 25 at 2017 5:51 PM

2017-07-25T17:51:19-04:00

Simply yes. I used to look at BS and MSM's and think wow, now after seeing so many and hearing what they got them for the BS and MSM do not impress me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 6:12 PM

2017-07-25T18:12:36-04:00

I am not sure about the Air Force, but in the Army an E-6 with an MSM usually got it awarded for doing a difficult duty assignment like drill sergeant, recruiter, or certain instructor positions, and even then it is still pretty rare. There also has been a change in how end of tour awards in combat zones are processed (for the Army at least). Soldiers doing administrative jobs in combat zones can now be awarded a MSM instead of a Bronze Star for Meritorious Service. The reality is though, the MSM or BSM for Meritorious Service in a combat zone is the equivalent of a Commendation Medal for peacetime activities. You are going to see them more often now because of the changes in the regulations as far as awarding an MSM in a combat zone.

Response by SFC Tommy Serio made Jul 25 at 2017 6:33 PM

2017-07-25T18:33:19-04:00

I don't know the circumstances, or the reason for the award, and neither do you, you don't know what they did or went through, neither do I, I would hope to think they earned the awards!

Response by MAJ Don Bigger made Jul 25 at 2017 6:37 PM

2017-07-25T18:37:10-04:00

If it has been watered down, as some have stated, I'm quite sure it started happening after I received mine :) Which, btw, was a little over 25 years ago. Damn. I'm getting old

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jul 25 at 2017 7:30 PM

2017-07-25T19:30:46-04:00

Do you know what jobs they held? It would not be unusual to see a PJ or Combat Controller E5/E6 get an award usually awarded to those of higher grade......

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Jul 25 at 2017 8:37 PM

2017-07-25T20:37:46-04:00

What are the standards for the award? We're the standards met? Napolean once said: "...give me a mile of ribbon and I can win any battle...". Commanders need to award soldiers for their service and action, be it the Medal of Honor to a Court Martial. Make believe traditions are not the regulations or law. If the soldier did it let them flaunt it.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Jul 25 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-07-25T21:10:57-04:00

An AF E-5 with an MSM is a very rare sight! Probably a life support dude, they're like the pilots enlisted pets.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 9:57 PM

2017-07-25T21:57:55-04:00

I taught at the Air Force's Senior NCO Academy, and the usual term for the MSM there was the "Master Sergeant's Medal." It was pretty telling when E-8s from the Navy and Coast Guard, and senior E-8s and E-9s from the Army would show up with a Commendation medal being their highest award, and nearly every Air Force E-7 would have oak leaf clusters on their MSMs. And the number of SILVER oak leaf clusters I've seen on MSMs STILL has me amazed!

Response by MSgt Dan Calhoun made Jul 25 at 2017 11:07 PM

2017-07-25T23:07:22-04:00

This is not isolated to this decoration, it is decorations in general. Over time awards became more and more common. It will continue on this path as society becomes more and more about personnel recognition. When they started making a big deal about "end of tour" decorations it was bound to happen.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Jul 25 at 2017 11:46 PM

2017-07-25T23:46:16-04:00

I have seen junior NCOs outperform senior NCOs and they have been very deserving of the award. I don't believe that one should have to go to hell and back for an MSM. I my opinion if you meet the standards in the regulation then that should be more than sufficient. The award is not exclusive to a certain rank or position.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Jul 25 at 2017 11:48 PM

2017-07-25T23:48:07-04:00

I've long ago stopped wondering how or why certain branches or even units within the same branch determine awards. The Eagle, Globe and Anchor is the award Marines should cherish the most. Everything else is just gravy. It doesn't matter whats on your sleeve or chest, its whats in your heart.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 3:36 AM

2017-07-26T03:36:35-04:00

I work in a headquarters battalion, and I can tell you that sometimes MSMs are attempted to be passed on to young NCOs/officers all the time - and it honestly isn't warranted. But because of the high level they work at, it is approved.

Awards aren't really rank fixed sure, but they are impact and influence fixed. An O-6 who is working as a director at the Army level can expect an MSM as a PCS award because her level of influence and impact was appropriately that large. An E-6 driver working on that office may have done an excellent job too, but doesn't neccesarily mean that he should walk out with an MSM. Some people seem to confuse that.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 6:34 AM

2017-07-26T06:34:29-04:00

Typically I've seen MSMs awarded to senior personnel either as retirement awards or EOT awards. I've submitted several MSMs for retiring senior NCOs in my formation. I've also seen CSMs receive an MSM after completing a tour at the BN level. However, I would also be very surprised to see an E5 with an MSM. It's not that E5s don't accomplish outstanding things on occasion, but in most cases they don't have the level of influence for MSM qualifying achievements.

An E6 under certain circumstances is more plausible. During my last tour I wrote BSMs for my PSG and 4 SLs. Of the 58 missions my Platoon completed, I personally led 18. I typically took the longest escort missions, which resulted in my squad leaders often running the short missions independently. At one point myself, my PSG, and 3 out of 4 of my squads were all outside the wire running separate missions. That was enough for me to justify their awards, but it's still probably a rarity.

I think what's more frustrating than fluctuating standards is "unofficial" quotas. Such as a Higher HQ saying they'll only sign X number of BSMs or ARCOMs, because apparently it's just too inconvenient for a commander to sign them all. If the person submitting the awards can justify them, it shouldn't matter how many are sent up. The higher HQ commander should be proud to sign those awards, as it means his/her people are doing great things.

Response by MSgt Paul Brown made Jul 26 at 2017 7:56 AM

2017-07-26T07:56:10-04:00

I did not get one of these till I retired, and for most of my peers, it was the same.

Response by SGT Mark Braden made Jul 26 at 2017 8:43 AM

2017-07-26T08:43:23-04:00

I agree, I had one but it was for 20 years of service and what I did in Iraq for 63 months from being a platform gunner to doing hometown articles for my unit... I do understand the frustration and I understand and empathize with you on this issue. Sincerely Mark

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jul 26 at 2017 10:54 AM

2017-07-26T10:54:33-04:00

GySgt John O'Donnell I know we all have our own opinions, but having served 33 years in the Army, and dealt with awards as Soldier and Commander, with experience on a large JTF in combat, and with many other combat and operational tours... I can tell you all 4 branches are very different.

1. It seems to me, in terms of awards, the USAF is most liberal, then the Army, then the Navy, then the Marines.
2. I got my 1st MSM as an newly promoted Captain, after I took command of a failing facility (ahead of many other Captains); I guess I helped right the ship. That was an anomaly in the Army at the time.
3. As a Captain at Fort Drum, I saw folks get MSMs for going on an exercise (REFORGER).... At Fort Drum, we gave out awards like candy. Other places, not so much.
4. As another example, I can still remember an issue, during Operation Allied Force (Kosovo Bombing) when I was forward deployed during security for a MAGTF, and the USAF was giving BSMs to USAF personal controlling and working in Italy, but who never left their bases.... I get the pilots and the air crews... But the dudes in the ATOC or staying at Aviano?
5. During OEF, we had a near impossible task, if we tried to award the BSM or even the DMSM to a Sailor or Marine in our JTF. We recommended a Marine O-6 for a BSM, who commanded the FOB at Camp Bucca, and Navy Captain too, and neither would be approved. Not an issue with USAF or Army.
From my experiences, this is an issue that has always been with us. I could cite many examples.... But, I think my batting order is close.

Response by SFC Phillip Allen made Jul 26 at 2017 11:56 AM

2017-07-26T11:56:31-04:00

I've seen many a senior leader, officer or NCO, with the most colorful salad on their chest you could ever wish to see, I myself had a fairly impressive rack, and frankly I feel like I earned every single award I ever received. Which I'm sure is the case with these two, as well. There is no rank requirement, no TIS requirement, nothing other than what the standards to receive that award require.

Let me relate a story to you. At the end of my first deployment to Iraq, 03-04, initial invasion, I had 2 soldiers who, based on their actions and duty responsibilities I felt deserved at least an ARCOM, thusly I put them in for it, filled out the 638, and submitted it. Several weeks later the list came out to the staffs, and looking through I discovered that not only did my 2 soldiers not receive an ARCOM, they didn't receive anything other than the blanket AAM that every single swinging Richard who deployed, got. The whole FOBBIT's thing, folks who never left FOB, never fired a shot, who soaked up AC and had a cold soda with every meal soldiers got. Needless to say I was annoyed. I brought it up to my FSO, and the story I received was, and I quote "there weren't enough awards available, the quota had been met", for ARCOMs, now I was no longer annoyed, I was livid. Things being what they were we had a ton of work to do in order to redeploy, so awards went to the wayside. We returned home a few weeks later, and when the awards ceremonies were held, those who received any award above ARCOM or any award with a V device were presented by the Brigade commander, and so on, ARCOMs were presented by the Battalion commander, and so on. The soldiers who received the 'blanket' AAM were presented by the Battery commander, the next day. The soldiers were quite happy to receive an award and an acknowledgement of their performance, I not so much, because I had a different understanding of the circumstances. Following the awards ceremony, I recalled my conversation with my FSO, at which I vented my frustrations on Army Times, and low and behold a couple weeks later, Army Times comes out, and boom, there's my comment published. Later that day sitting in an auditorium receiving yet another redeployment briefing the 1SG comes and pulls me from the event, and asks me if I wrote a letter to Army Times, which I of course confirmed, "well, good job, you're being ordered to report to the Corps commander, with the entire chain of command, in one hour" meaning Division/CSM on down. Needless to say, I was a little nervous, as a SSG having to walk the hall outside the Corps commander's office with the eyes of every person I worked for staring at me, but not daring to raise voices given where we were. So, we get called in, we are lined up by rank and position in front of the LTG's desk, and he calls me forward, I report, and he asks, "did you write this letter to Army Times?" to which I responded, "yes sir I did". And to everyone's surprise, or consternation, depending on your point of view, he replied. "you are absolutely correct", he then told all of them to go back to their commands, the read the letter I wrote, and really give some thought to the awards process and how we do business, and dismissed all of them, except my Battery Cdr/1SG, he told them to wait outside for me. I sat in there with him for over an hour, and he explained his consternation with the whole process, but also made it clear that in order to not cheapen the award there had to more stringent requirements on how the awards are given, rather than blank awards based on position or level of responsibility only, he called it the lazy man's way of giving awards. I guess he also passed down to the rest of my CoC to leave the issue with me alone, cause I never heard from any of the other members of said chain about the incident, but my 1SG and Cdr were quite happy to not be 'on the carpet in a bad way'.

My point for all of this, is to say, there is no quota, there is no rank/position requirement, each award recommendation should be evaluated on it's merits, not convenience of the chain of command, I would surmise that each of those 2 individuals you mentioned, were recommended for, and received those awards because someone took the time to read and decide whether the actions warranted the awards or not.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Jul 26 at 2017 12:12 PM

2017-07-26T12:12:30-04:00

I just snicker. Submariners get very few awards because everything we did was super secret. Our command all rec'd expeditionary medals. The written part basically said "Award given. Reason TOP SECRET. Date TOP SECRET". So we tended to care about 1 thing and 1 thing only. The dolphins. Your rack of ribbons/medals means nothing really. Those represent what you HAVE done. I want to see what you ARE doing. Don't get me wrong, some of those medals are impressive but for the most part they are just fancy "attaboys". Where I am now, military get a medal when they transfer out just for having been here.

The award I rec'd that meant the most to me (not even a medal) was a letter of commendation from outside my command. An outside element put me in for it and it pissed my CO off really bad but it meant that my hard work was recognized by people outside the command.

Oh, and back to the original question. Don't sweat it (others getting the medal that is) unless you know for a fact they aren't supposed to be wearing it. A lot of medals, probably this one too are a matter of butt kissing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 12:43 PM

2017-07-26T12:43:50-04:00

Maybe he did something awesome, you dont know.

Response by CMSgt Tim Garland made Jul 26 at 2017 1:09 PM

2017-07-26T13:09:17-04:00

To comment on the "standardization across the services" for the Meritorious Service Medal (MSM). Here is the criteria for the MSM for all the branches of the services:
CRITERIA
The Meritorious Service Medal may be awarded to any member (notice it doesn't say anything about rank requirement) of the armed forces of the United States who distinguishes themselves by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service to the United States.

Additionally, from SECNAVINST 1650.1H, SECTION 3 - REQUIREMENTS, 230. SPECIFIC MILITARY DECORATIONS, 10. MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL, b., it states the following:
Eligibility Requirements. Awarded to members of the Armed Forces of the United States, or members of the armed forces of a friendly foreign nation, who distinguish themselves by outstanding meritorious achievement or service to the United States. To justify this decoration, the acts or services
rendered by an individual, regardless of grade or rate, must have be comparable to that required for the Legion of Merit, but in a duty of lesser responsibility. The Meritorious Service Medal is the counterpart of the Bronze Star Medal for the recognition of meritorious non-combat service. When the degree of meritorious achievement or service rendered is not sufficient to warrant the award of the Meritorious Service Medal, the Navy Commendation Medal, when appropriate, should be considered.

Notice in the last paragraph it states, "regardless of grade or rate"...it doesn't state they have to be a certain rank nor have more than 12 years of service to be awarded the MSM.

As far as the ranks of the individuals who were wearing the MSM's...irrelevant, period! These two individuals (regardless of which branch of service) distinguished themselves enough through their outstanding achievement or meritorious service that their leadership felt their actions had such an impact on the mission it warranted the medal. Through the vetting process of each service, their actions warranted the award.

Second, apparently you were curious enough about the medals to find out that they both had less than 12 years of service. Since you were asking how many years of service they had, why didn't you take the time to ask each of them what they did to EARN the MSM's? Better yet, you should have asked them to justify (to you) why they earned the medals...since this is basically what you're wanting.

Third, "in the Marine Corps there is a very high standard required to receive the award." So what's being inferred here is the Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard don't have a "very high standard required to receive the award." That's a very bold and disparaging statement in a time were we're doing more and more joint operations supporting all the services.

What's even more surprising is you're a GySgt. A Senior NCO who's suppose to be building cohesiveness between the services, not trying to drive wedges between them. Come on Gunney, let's get with the program.

Enough said...

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Jul 28 at 2017 11:49 PM

2017-07-28T23:49:50-04:00

Same reasons why it takes someone 50 years to receive a MoH. It rests on the people in charge at that time. In five years perhaps no one will get a MSM. In fifteen, it may be something for everyone. Guy gets scratched by a cactus during a 45 second firefight. Goes to the aid station for a Band-Aid. A year later, receives a Purple Heart. There just aren't any answers to the mysteries of decorations.

Response by MSgt Jason McClish made Jul 29 at 2017 4:35 PM

2017-07-29T16:35:53-04:00

I still disagree with putting names and ranks on award recommendations. The merits are in the package. If criteria are met in the write up, then award the member. A junior member really can 'pop' on paper, going above and beyond normal duties. Awards have consistently been reserved for specific pay grades. It's the scope of responsibility and how they carried out those responsibilities. If an E5 or E6 is performing very well and has a significant impact to the mission or influences far beyond their respective unit, and does it meritoriously and with distinction, absolutely, submit this member for an MSM or BSM. The criteria is subjective, but only to a point. Are awards inflated some? Many would say yes, but also keep in mind, no one serving today wrote the award criteria. Don't punish the member by disapproving or downgrading an award in which the criteria have been met or in some cases exceeded. By doing so, you're part of the problem and it'll have second and third order effects down the road for sure! That's my two pennies.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2017 7:58 AM

2017-07-30T07:58:06-04:00

The MSM from my experience is very tough for an enlisted Soldier to earn. However CDR's seem to get this automatically regardless of their standing when they leave the unit.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2017 11:33 PM

2017-07-30T23:33:36-04:00

By the time I ETS'ed as an E-6 I had 2 so I'm going to say yes.

Response by TSgt Michael Newman made Jul 31 at 2017 11:01 AM

2017-07-31T11:01:12-04:00

Honestly, I think the assumption in your question is one of the biggest problem with the military awards. Awards are intended to be based off merit and not rank. When those with higher ranks stop getting BS awards for doing jack shit, then maybe their subordinates will start giving them "earned" respect. Until then, subordinates will continue to respect the rank and not the individual. I would like to believe most service members would prefer to earn their respect.

Response by 1LT Kurt Mccarthy made Oct 28 at 2017 10:11 PM

2017-10-28T22:11:30-04:00

We had a CPT with less than a year at the duty station get an MSM for a PCS. The bullets on the award were from something myself and the CPT prior put together that we got ARCOMs for. Yes, I pick yes!

Response by LCDR Frederick Clem made Oct 31 at 2017 8:38 AM

2017-10-31T08:38:43-04:00

Gunny, before I provide my opinion on awarding the Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) to an Air Force SSGT and Army SSGT, I would like to provide some of my professional experience, military and civilian, which I believe uniquely qualifies me to provide an informed opinion on this subject, at least to a degree.

I enlisted in the Navy in 1969 and advanced to Chief Personnelman (E-7) on 16 Sep 78. At the that time, I had absolutely zero personal awards despite having outstanding enlisted performance evaluations at every duty station that i was assigned to. On 2 Apr 80, I received a commission as an Ensign (O1-E) in the Limited Duty Officer (LDO) field of Administration. I served 26 years on active duty and retired as a Lieutenant Commander (O-4) on 1 Jul 95. After retiring from the Navy, I initially obtained a job with a defense contractor which provides on site support to the Navy and Marine Corps. After a couple of years, I obtained a Government Service (GS) job as a Case Examiner at the Board for the Correction of Naval Records. Then, I took a job as the Director of a Navy Personnel Support Detachment. After working for the Navy as a contractor and GS for almost 20 more years, I retired on 1 Jan 15. In all my jobs as a Naval Officer and the majority of my time as a GS employee with the Department of the Navy, I was tasked with writing and reviewing personal award recommendations for both Officer and Enlisted Personnel as well as Unit Award Recommendations.

At the time that I was serving in the Navy as enlisted, it was not uncommon for enlisted personnel in pay grades E-1 to E-6 to have no personal awards at all and E-7 and above to have been awarded personal awards no higher than the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement or Commendation Medal. It was rare to see an enlisted person that had been awarded a MSM. For Officers, Navy Achievement or Commendation Medals was the norm to pay grades O-1 to O-4. MSMs were and still are primarily awarded to O-5s and Legions of Merits for O-6s. The higher personal awards are primarily reserved for the Flag Community as least in the Department of Navy.

I have observed or been assigned to units or commands where outstanding performance that clearly was a benefit to the organization and the Navy was not recognized as well as abuse of the authority to award personal awards. At one of the commands that I was assigned to, a Yeoman Second Class (YN2/E-5) had six Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals and had been on active duty less than ten years. I also seen where a Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) that was serving as the Executive Officer of a unit get the award recommended downgraded from a MSM to Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal despite the fact that the scope and authority of the job was at the O-5 level and his performance had clearly exceeded what was required and contributed significantly to the unit and Department of the Navy. The reason provided was that the awarding authority, a Rear Admiral , refused to award a LCDR a MSM because he never received one at that pay grade. And, another unit that i reported to had not recommended any enlisted for personal awards for years.

I believe the standard for awarding personal awards are clearly defined in the awards manuals for all the Branches of the Armed Forces. Pay grades and years of service are not specified in the awards manuals. Scope of authority and responsibility is. And, that is where enlisted personnel generally don't have the opportunity to have performed in a unit with increased authority and responsibility that would warrant the awarding of a MSM. However, personal bias and the difficulty in getting everyone in the chain of commands of units to apply fair and consistent standards to the awarding of personal awards is almost impossible to do.

In regards to the MSM awarded to the SSGT in the Air Force and Army that you observed, they might have been assigned to positions of authority and responsibility much higher than their pay grades and performed at a level that was exceedingly higher than expected and had a positive and lasting impact to the units that they were assigned. Or, it could have been that the entire chain of command failed to comply with the guidelines in the awards manuals when recommending and reviewing the awards.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Nov 2 at 2017 10:49 AM

2017-11-02T10:49:03-04:00

Gunny, each service handles its own and each unit determines the award. During my time, it was normal if PCSing form OCONUS that if you wee an E6 and above and keep your nose clean, you were GIVEN an MSM. I never served a tour OCONUS other than deployments, Rangers awarded a ARCOM, after almost 15 years the 82nd Awarded an MSM and upon my retirement, XVIII G1 downgraded a Legion of Merit to my 2nd MSM. It's the typical unit/PAC BS drill. We just drive on, and suck it up. Thanks for your service, comparing awards is often like pecker checks.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2017 1:48 PM

2017-11-02T13:48:48-04:00

My first MSM was for my tenure in the G-1 as I was leaving for another unit. In a nutshell, the award for creating innovative ideas and improving business rules that affected the organization, administratively, technically and operationally, etc etc etc. My 2nd would have been while in theatre but only E-7 & above could get those, got an ARCOM 4th award instead. So my actual 2nd actual MSM came by as a result of my retirement, for the usual, service, duty, worked hard, etc etc. I had already maxed my awards anyways.

So, I don't think it's a matter of standardization, the standards for the awards are there as defined by regulation of each service branch. The Meritorious Service Medal is recommended, "For outstanding meritorious achievement or service ...", so now the issue comes to formulate that achievement or service.
Interpretation of regulations is yet another thing, not to mention whatever criteria in the unit/BN/BDE/DIV SOP for awards may have. Quick example, if you went to a school course and awarded Honor Grad/Distinguished Honor Grad/Commandants List, you were almost guaranteed to get an AAM. But as with my experiences, I've also seen that you have to be of a certain rank, know someone in the inner sanctum or meet whatever made-up criteria to get a particular award. Just my two cents, or do I have to adjust that for today's inflation?

Response by PO2 James Spiers made Nov 2 at 2017 6:12 PM

2017-11-02T18:12:59-04:00

I think all medals are worth(less) nowadays. I busted my ass and recieved a NAM and then saw folks sitting on their collective asses doing nothing and getting one and I'm like "Really!!"

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2017 6:30 PM

2017-11-02T18:30:11-04:00

Did you stop and ask what they received the MSM for? Perhaps they surpassed the “very high standard” you referenced to in the Marine Corps. The USAF also sets a high standard, and guidance that those below specific pay grades should only be awarded one in extremely rare circumstances and only for extremely meritorious service.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2017 6:34 PM

2017-11-02T18:34:35-04:00

This is a prime example of the garbage leadership that exists in the military. You think that medals should be based on race or tune in service rather than what people actually accomplish. Hell I'm surprised people don't bitch at medals of valor being given to E-6's and below.

Response by SSG Shawn Kent made Nov 2 at 2017 7:28 PM

2017-11-02T19:28:52-04:00

I received my MSM as a SSG for 5 years in a unit while there I did 6 months Sinai rotation the war in Panama as a Plt Sgt. 2 cohort rotations ,honor grad bncoc, ranger school ,jump school,95% or higher on every sqt test 5 arcoms 12 send they awarded it to me when I pcs with 9 years in by I was the only SSG I knew with it

Response by SPC Christopher Combs made Nov 2 at 2017 7:50 PM

2017-11-02T19:50:52-04:00

I was awarded my MSM as an E4 for my duties in Iraq. Did I deserve this award I didn’t think so but my command did which is why they put me in for it, and I guess the O5, O6 and O8 who signed off on it did as well. Awards should be based on actions that go beyond normal duties in my opinion, no one should receive an award for doing there job.

Response by SSgt Tim Fink made Nov 2 at 2017 9:11 PM

2017-11-02T21:11:29-04:00

If you know nothing about their service, other than their Time in Service, you are making assumptions. No medal should be based upon Time in Service. If that’s the case, it becomes a participation trophy.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Nov 2 at 2017 9:26 PM

2017-11-02T21:26:07-04:00

Medals - Awards- Evaluation Reports? All of them are so full of BS.

Inflation and lack of personal courage by the rater and endorser to tell the absolut truth contribute to inflated EERs and OERs. Those same people award medals. Questions?

Response by CPL Ben Garcia made Nov 2 at 2017 11:03 PM

2017-11-02T23:03:59-04:00

As standards fall across branches so do standards for medal achievements

Response by PO1 Gerald Lis made Nov 3 at 2017 2:08 AM

2017-11-03T02:08:42-04:00

Well going IA to Afghanistan with a PRT. I saw the Army E-3 to E-5 getting the Army Commendation medals as an EOT (end of tour) awards, the E-6 and above were given Bronze Stars. Being an E-6 in the Navy I was giving the same Army commendation medal as were the Chiefs, Sr. Chiefs and Officers. They were going to give My Department Head, A Full Commander, the same but I do believe her's was changed to MSM. I know that in the Navy it was very RARE to see an E-6 and below with a Navy Commendation Medal. Crap it was hard enough to get a NAM. But that is why the Navy and Marine Corps Team leads the way. Hell even after 20 years of Honorable service at my retirement I only received a Navy Achievement Medal.

Response by SGT Mark Saint Cyr made Nov 3 at 2017 2:33 AM

2017-11-03T02:33:24-04:00

It's watered down and cheapened often by some persons in positions of responsibility, who got there simply because of the color of their skin, not for any great service. They then go on to award medals to others persons of the so called minority, who do little to earn them, while ignoring those who do more, but simply aren't the right color. During the mid 90's in the Arizona National Guard this happened so much, that I decided it was time for me to move on.

Response by SSgt Julius Bob Midgett made Nov 3 at 2017 11:59 AM

2017-11-03T11:59:13-04:00

A bronze star without device is nothing mor than a MSM

Response by John H Green Jr made Nov 4 at 2017 9:45 PM

2017-11-04T21:45:23-04:00

Awards are all about someone higher than you wanting to receive it. As a BS S4 I was modest and get a MSM during my first deployment. Everyone else got BSMs. I also saw jr enlisted get MSMs in 2005. In my army experance 04s got MSMs, ARCOMS for everyone else.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2017 10:26 PM

2017-11-04T22:26:51-04:00

I can only speak about what,I have witnessed and seen in my 22 years in The Army. The MSM in my experience has often been awarded to Soldiers retiring, Senior NCOs PCSing on occasion and Field Grade officers at times PCSing. More specifically it was awarded to Senior NCOs and Field Grade officers in the tough or key jobs that were successful in those jobs. Now that has been my experience, I can only speak on what I have observed. I can share that as a BN XO I was awarded an MSM, but that was my second time as a BN XO, my first time as a BN XO I was awarded an ARCOM (Army Commendation Medal).

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2017 9:59 PM

2017-11-05T21:59:58-05:00

I taught in a joint-service school - the Air Force Senior NCO Academy. The MSM is commonly called the "Master Sergeant's Medal," and _EVERY_ Air Force E-7 and above had at least one - usually three or four. I saw two with SILVER oak leaves on their MSMs. I saw several Army Sergeants Major there with ARCOMs - no MSM. Only a couple Navy Senior Chiefs had one, and NONE of the Coastie Chiefs I saw had one.

Yes. It is being watered down.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 11 at 2017 12:06 PM

2017-11-11T12:06:58-05:00

I have 2 MSMs and 3 Defense MSMs. During my time in the service the Air Force MSM was normally given to field grade officers when they PCSed. Company grade officers normally got the AF Commendation Medal on PCS. (Achievement Medals didn't come along until several years after I was commissioned.) My DMSMs were awarded for achievement, upon PCS, and Retirement. The DMSM for achievement is the only medal I truly value--I worked had on a project and was recognized for it. Awarding MSMs and AFComs for PCS is a tradition in the Air Force. I don't necessarily agree with it because it does tend to make the awards less valuable. In my time in the service, the PCS awards tended to show up after you had arrived at your new unit. They were presented at a Commander's Call or similar event. The citation was read and your new Commander presented the medal. Very nice, but everybody knew they were "we're glad you're gone" awards.

Response by CW2 Louis Melendez made Jan 9 at 2018 7:39 PM

2018-01-09T19:39:23-05:00

It depends Gunny. Typically the chances of a SSG receiving an MSM in a conventional Army unit are slim to none because of the bureaucracy and maybe due to the lack of supporting information to back up the narrative.

However, this is not always the case in other parts of the Army. You can probably take that same SSG in Special Operations and have higher chances to get it approved due to the broader impact that ARSOF Soldiers have in the battlefield or whatever mission you can name.

It boils down to what you have done that made a significant impact and how well this gets captured on the DA Form 638 or your narrative (DMSM). Hope this helps

Response by PO3 Michael James made Jan 9 at 2018 9:00 PM

2018-01-09T21:00:52-05:00

Possibly Gunny, those who have NOT been awarded this medal, resent those who have.... Semper fi..

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2018 10:34 PM

2018-03-08T22:34:51-05:00

You gotta be on your way out basically, highly seasoned Marines get this award. Very rare.

Response by CPO Wally Smith made Mar 9 at 2018 11:15 AM

2018-03-09T11:15:51-05:00

I agree that there probably have been instances where this award has been "watered down" In my 23 year career I did witness this with both the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal and the Navy Commendation Medal. When I first entered the military it was common to see an enlisted person complete an entire career without receiving one of these awards until the very end of their career. And it wasn't common for "any" enlisted person to receive any personal award higher than a Navy Achievement Medal as an end of tour award. A Letter of Commendation used to be a typical end of your award for anyone E-6 and below. I definitely did witness a significant change over the years, particularly in light of the fact that I had 7 years of broken service in my total career. In my early years I never ever saw a Meritorious Service Medal awarded to any enlisted person "regardless" of what position they held. I have personal experience with this having served on an Admiral's staff.

Response by CW4 Bruce Howell made Mar 9 at 2018 11:38 AM

2018-03-09T11:38:06-05:00

You have to be in a click or sneeze to get one.

Response by MAJ Glenn Smith made Mar 9 at 2018 1:04 PM

2018-03-09T13:04:44-05:00

It could be. Awards in general get watered down if Criteria is not tightly adhered to.

Response by CMC Keith Livingstone made Mar 9 at 2018 5:14 PM

2018-03-09T17:14:50-05:00

Today’s world is all about making everyone feel good the awards system is broken!

Response by PO2 James Davis made Mar 9 at 2018 7:43 PM

2018-03-09T19:43:48-05:00

I want to read about who recommended them to get the medal and for what reason. To many medals are given out for the wrong reasons - the bronze star and flying cross are good examples of medals that are given out to freely. To many medals given out for no reason - John Kerry is a prime example.

Response by SSG John Enright made Mar 9 at 2018 8:01 PM

2018-03-09T20:01:00-05:00

I recieved my first MSM as an E4, original award was sent up as an ARCOM, CG upgraded it to MSM for the extra work and briefings I had done not related to my job, recieved my 2nd MSM as an E-6, and was put in for a 3rd MSM that was downgraded to an ARCOM because “the CO had his MSM downgraded”

Response by CPO Robert Fleck made Mar 9 at 2018 10:43 PM

2018-03-09T22:43:49-05:00

I think a lot of awards have been watered down Bronze Stars are now given as end of deployment award.

Response by LTC Charles Hamilton made Mar 9 at 2018 10:55 PM

2018-03-09T22:55:24-05:00

Used to be, in the 80-90s, this was an O-6 award. Almost never awarded to a lower grade rank. USA Rtd

Response by LCpl Patrick Lindley made Mar 10 at 2018 8:20 AM

2018-03-10T08:20:03-05:00

Lets face it, you will never see anyone in the air force, or army, or navy, or coast guard held to as high of standards as their equivalent rank in the Marines.

On a day to day basis, a Marine is excpected to be the best of the best, and on a day to day basis, they are.

That being said, the true American Dogs of War arent kept savage and ready for action by pampering. You dont pin medals or give pats on the back when a Marine does what is expected of them. But you punish ruthlessly when they fall short.

Often times, the only medals a Marine will receive untill they reach NCO status besides deployment medals and shooting badge are, Fire Watch, and a Good Cookie. (Active Duty & Good Conduct for those who haven't served)

After 4 years in the Marines I had my Active Service, Good Conduct, GWAT, Sea Service, and Afganistan Campaing w/single Bronze Star, and a 4th award Expert Rifleman badge.
I had been up for one NAM nomination but didn't make the final cut, and on one meritorious promotion board, E-3 to E-4 that I lost due to not remebering the name of the first female Marine... (Knowing Marine Corps History is mandatory for things like this.)

Friends from high school that joined the Army and Navy had more ribbons and medals than I did before they had ever deployed. They also reached higher rank much faster than the Marine Corps promotes.

So it wouldn't surprise me to find out that lesser ranking members of lesser branches got awards and medals that would typically be reserved for only the best of Marines.

Response by Sgt Robert Brushaber made Mar 10 at 2018 10:00 AM

2018-03-10T10:00:27-05:00

Apparently the award has been watered down. - Ref: SECNAVINST 1650.1G, Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual: "To justify this decoration, the acts or services rendered by an individual, regardless of grade or rate, must have been comparable to that required for the Legion of Merit but in a duty of lesser responsibility. The Meritorious Service Medal is the counterpart of the Bronze Star Medal for the recognition of meritorious non-combat service."

Response by SGT Steve McCart made Mar 10 at 2018 10:40 AM

2018-03-10T10:40:46-05:00

Awards are nice but what about the troops who accomplished incredible feats and received nothing. It is just a piece of metal and cloth, the real award is in your mind and heart.

Response by LCDR Rich Mahone made Mar 10 at 2018 1:48 PM

2018-03-10T13:48:53-05:00

In '95, I put my Master Chief and Senior Chief in for the MSM. They received it despite the protest of our command's Chief of Staff (CSO), who was a Navy Captain. I was put in for the same award in '96 by my new CSO and that same Navy Captain was now my CO. He downgraded it to a NMCCM. Though I didn't ask for an explanation, he felt compelled to give me one. He stated an MSM was for senior officers and that the two he was awarded were for O-5 command and being the number one recruiter in the Mid-West. Oh well.

Response by SFC Bill Gillespie made Mar 10 at 2018 5:47 PM

2018-03-10T17:47:14-05:00

I recieved my first MSM after 3 yrs of being a Drill Sgt. During that time I was Drill Sgt. of the qtr.3 times,earned my EIB,and graduate some of the finest soldiers in the army between 78 and 81.
It doesn't matter if I think I deserved it or not,but an 05..06..and 08 did...

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Mar 10 at 2018 8:23 PM

2018-03-10T20:23:35-05:00

It seems that in a military where PC was made priority over combat readiness, all awards have been cheapened and given without merit.

Response by SSgt Ward Huffine made Mar 11 at 2018 11:51 AM

2018-03-11T11:51:58-04:00

Back in the day if you were enlisted, an MSM might come when you retired. An AFCM might come after a three year assignment and you were top notch excellent. This was before the Achivement
Metals that seem to be Dime a dozen now.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Mar 11 at 2018 9:44 PM

2018-03-11T21:44:51-04:00

The challenge is that it is the commander's program. In the Army I've seen different standards from one organization to the other. Sometimes too loose, and in others too tight.

If the Army within its subordinate commands they do things differently, I see an uphill battle to standarize across services

I get it, some folks fall through the cracks.

In my view what maters is, "are we rewarding those who should?"

Response by MSgt Jim Cunningham made Mar 12 at 2018 6:49 AM

2018-03-12T06:49:16-04:00

When I was in the AF, we called it the Master Sergeant Medal. It was awarded to those who typically had much more leadership responsibility and having a greater impact. I was given three in my last few years of service at short stints before I retired. Prior to that when at a lower rank and still having an impact, I received Accomadations.

Response by Sgt Don Hill made Mar 12 at 2018 1:23 PM

2018-03-12T13:23:40-04:00

During my time, I only saw it awarded to those members who were retiring, having served honorably.

Response by SP6 Stephen Eaton made Mar 12 at 2018 1:32 PM

2018-03-12T13:32:37-04:00

I retired as a E6 but I have two MSM’s

Response by SPC Alec Feltri made Mar 12 at 2018 1:35 PM

2018-03-12T13:35:09-04:00

I thought awards were supposed to be about actions done to complete missions and your overall contribution to the mission. The whole award by rank standard is garbage. Just because you’re a SFC etc doesn’t mean you HAD more of an impact. It’s up to that commander to judge who gets what ultimately, but a lot of the time contribution and actual work gets overshadowed by tis and rank.

Response by LCpl Bob Eisbach made Mar 12 at 2018 1:46 PM

2018-03-12T13:46:50-04:00

That is what makes the Corps,nothing is given away, it must be earned. I would only be concerned if the Marines lowered their standards. Screw the rest of them

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2018 2:19 PM

2018-03-12T14:19:16-04:00

DMSM or MSM?

Joint Service/Commands will usually award higher than being attached to your own service. However an MSM for an E5 or E6 is extremely high.

Response by SMSgt John Chapman made Mar 12 at 2018 4:27 PM

2018-03-12T16:27:35-04:00

From personal experience and observation, the MSM is practically handed out in the USAFR and ANG. I've seen some senior NCO's with as many as FOUR oak leaf clusters on them. They are practically a guarantee for retirement for E-7 and above. I spent 12 years in the USMC/USMCR and transferred to the USAFR with five ribbons. It cheapens the award when they are pretty much handed out.

Response by SP6 Tod Hiller made Mar 12 at 2018 4:38 PM

2018-03-12T16:38:01-04:00

I believe that the award should reflect the actions of the awardee in the environment and circumstances it was earned in. "Participation trophies" were also handed out after Ft. Indiantown Gap, PA., Grenada, and Panama. The change must come from within the ranks; guided by true leaders.

Response by TSgt John Beaman made Mar 12 at 2018 5:16 PM

2018-03-12T17:16:27-04:00

I was told to write my own recommendation for the MSM and my commander would ensure the General would endorse it. This was at my retirement.

Response by Capt Gregory Rush made Mar 12 at 2018 6:01 PM

2018-03-12T18:01:22-04:00

I always thought of this as a retirement medal.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Mar 12 at 2018 6:11 PM

2018-03-12T18:11:47-04:00

Let me get this straight. Other branches have, in any way shape or form, lower standards, and this actually surprises you? =)

Response by SFC Bradley Walker made Mar 12 at 2018 6:24 PM

2018-03-12T18:24:18-04:00

I retired as a U.S. Sergeant First Class (E7) back in 2005 and was awarded my first and only Meritorious Service Medal. Yet there were many of my peers that were awarded that same award back when they were Staff Sergeants and promoted ahead of me aince they were in units that allowed "awards inflation"...there is no level playing field.

Response by SSG Jon Cartier made Mar 12 at 2018 7:47 PM

2018-03-12T19:47:41-04:00

I learned that the closer you are to the typewriters, the more medals you are "eligible" for.

Response by MCPO Barry Burge made Mar 12 at 2018 8:02 PM

2018-03-12T20:02:20-04:00

Depends entirely on what the MSM was awarded for. Rank/Rate or TIS are irrelevant.

Response by SSgt Ray Jones made Mar 12 at 2018 9:19 PM

2018-03-12T21:19:16-04:00

Must be, I've never heard of that award

Response by Cpl Michael Daniel made Mar 12 at 2018 9:50 PM

2018-03-12T21:50:53-04:00

No opinion without seeing the citation. In the Corps, I saw some highly questionable NAM's given to officers while others got meritorious masts for actually doing the work and taking initiative beyond the requirements. This particular officer was a dweeb at best and a royal screw-up in the field. The NAM was given because his platoon did well on an inspection (peace time).

Response by PO1 Andrew Grabowski made Mar 12 at 2018 10:37 PM

2018-03-12T22:37:55-04:00

How far up the Chain does the MSM in either branch need to go. If it is a Unit or Wing type Commander it is likely it is watered down a bit. If the award was selected by a board that's away from the unit or wing commander then I venture to guess, at least on the paper version of the award it read very well, and possibly deservingly so.

Response by CMDCM James Ryan made Mar 12 at 2018 11:08 PM

2018-03-12T23:08:50-04:00

I received mine after 31 years and completing a 2 year project for a 3 star. Medals need to be protected and passed out when earned. MCPO Retired

Response by LTC John Russell made Mar 12 at 2018 11:12 PM

2018-03-12T23:12:54-04:00

I was refused a LOM nomination from an O-8 because 18th Airborne Corps policy was, as a retiring O5, I had to have 28 years. My 24.5 was not enough. Why hang around if that O6 promo was not going to happen and my O8 didn't have the weight to get it done. Throw away the LOM and Distinguished Service awards.

Response by MSgt Mitchell Chang made Mar 12 at 2018 11:30 PM

2018-03-12T23:30:50-04:00

Yes it has. The criteria for awarding the MSM has been watered down to improve an individuals chance for retention and promotion.

Response by SSG Kim Crea made Mar 12 at 2018 11:42 PM

2018-03-12T23:42:24-04:00

On the flip side, I’ve met marines with over 20 years of service I wouldn’t follow out of curiosity.

Response by SSgt Dale Maddox made Mar 12 at 2018 11:54 PM

2018-03-12T23:54:50-04:00

it is not a time in service medal the marines some times over do there awards

Response by Cpl Justin Bannister made Mar 13 at 2018 12:06 AM

2018-03-13T00:06:27-04:00

You think that’s bad you should see how easy it is in the Air Force to receive a bronze/silver star. They literally have a checklist for supervision to follow to receive one.

Response by Maj Gilbert Cancio made Mar 13 at 2018 1:53 AM

2018-03-13T01:53:03-04:00

Each service has their own guidelines and in some cases their own medals. The Marines don't issue a new private a ribbon for completing boot camp. Yet all of the other services do, it devalues the importance of the ribbon. I would say that it isn't the quantity of the awards but rather the quality. I have run into a few "medal collectors" who turned out not to be worth a darn!

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Mar 13 at 2018 2:29 AM

2018-03-13T02:29:18-04:00

Your point is well taken. Let take a history lesson. (I am going to speak mostly about the Army because that's what I am most familiar with.) First, the MSM was established in 1969 as an intermediate award between the Legion of Merit (then awarded almost exclusively to senior officers) and the Navy and Army Commendation Medals which were awarded to lower ranks. Each service, of course, has its own philosophy as to awards. In the case of the MSM around the year 2000, the Marines awarded them only to majors and above for officers and E-8s and E9s on the enlisted side. In the Army they were awarded to captains and above for officers and to outstanding E-6s but more usually to E-7s and above. Then 9-11 era started when combat deployments were more the norm than the exception. One of the flaws in the regulation is that the MSM, being a non-combat award, was in the regulation as a "peacetime" award and, therefore, could not be awarded for service "in theater". (The same was the case with the Army Achievement Medal.) The created the Bronze Star debacle which was that Bronze Star Medals can be awarded for either valor or meritorious service. The problem was this - who is going to get what decoration? To make matters worse, there were few options. A commander had, basically, three options to recognize service on a deployment - 1. Bronze Star Medal, 2. Army Commendation Medal (ARCM) or 3. nothing. So what happened? Basically - E-7s and above got mostly Bronze Stars and E-6s and below got mostly Army Commendation Medals. This, of course, created resentment among two groups - 1. Junior enlisteds who saw the BSM as a medal only for higher ranks and 2. combat veterans (ie. those outside the wire) who resented REMFs and Fobbits getting BSMs for doing desk jobs.
This went on for a few years until they decided to allow MSMs and AAMs to be awarded for in theater service. This helped the problem of the Bronze Star debacle by giving commanders a wider range of options in giving awards. So far so good. But then, it created the problem of who deserves an MSM. Some commanders decided to award MSMs to lower enlisteds because the awards of ARCMs and AAMs were so frequent they had lost their meaning. This, of course, created resentment for those who had to wait 10, 20 or more years to get an MSM - which is the source of your question.
I personally feel the MSM should only be awarded to outstanding E-6s, W-3s or O-3s or higher ranks. It should be kept exclusive if it is to be a prestigious award. As to the BSM - it should only be awarded for combat valor and not for meritorious service in a combat zone - as is the case with 98 percent of the BSM awards.
Has the MSM been cheapend? Probably, but the problem stems from a lack of consistent guidelines as to who should receive and for what.
Full disclosure - I received a BSM for a tour in Iraq where I had an office job. (To be honest, I worked by butt off.) I also received a retirement MSM after almost 36 years of service in the reserve components. I feel I earned both of them but would have also been very happy to get an MSM instead of the BSM if it were an option at the time.

Response by MSgt Martin Jones made Mar 13 at 2018 4:53 AM

2018-03-13T04:53:37-04:00

One thing that I noted in my 21 years of service. Medals are given to folk that go beyond the call of duty. One of the requirements is that some one that has: The rank to put the person in for the medal and the writing skills to word it right. I saw a lot of folk that earned a medal but did not receive one. I also saw quite a few folk that did not earn a metal but go one.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2018 7:36 AM

2018-03-13T07:36:04-04:00

Awards in general are handed out like candy now days.

Response by TSgt Scotty Pigg made Mar 13 at 2018 7:51 AM

2018-03-13T07:51:09-04:00

Come on Gunny, a freaking financial desk jockey in the Air Force got a Bronze Star for doing their job - sitting at a desk - wtf?

Response by Sgt Kevin Cameron made Mar 13 at 2018 8:39 AM

2018-03-13T08:39:48-04:00

The Marine Corp has always been a Service of Pride and Integrity. The other Services are Honary but not like the Marine Corp. Everything is Special, that's why we say maybe you can be one of us!

Response by SSG Dickie Swindle made Mar 13 at 2018 10:36 AM

2018-03-13T10:36:20-04:00

Requirements should be standard for all branches on this award.

Response by MSgt Steve Bedsole made Mar 13 at 2018 1:01 PM

2018-03-13T13:01:07-04:00

I have been retired over 20 years but in the old days it was understood that the MSM was to recognize top three enlisted and field grade officers with only few exceptions. Also, command level assignments but even then the recognition for junior enlisted and officers was done in most cases by the service’s commendation, joint service commendation, or achievement medal. In looking at the news over the past several years, it appears that the MSM is only one of the medals being watered down. When I see a picture that a crew member on a bomber is receiving their 8, 9, or 10 DFC, it really makes you wonder who’s screening these awards.

Response by CW4 Roger Pettner made Mar 13 at 2018 2:26 PM

2018-03-13T14:26:41-04:00

I received mine in 2005 after 36yrs of service. 12yrs sounds a little short to me. I am sceptical that they could active the high standards of this award in souch a short time.

Response by CCMSgt Fred Robohn made Mar 13 at 2018 4:45 PM

2018-03-13T16:45:40-04:00

It would have been unusual in my day to see an E-5 or E-6 wearing an MSM. However, I would need to know what career field these two were serving in.

Response by SCPO Mike Creazzo made Mar 13 at 2018 5:39 PM

2018-03-13T17:39:32-04:00

I retired as a Senior Chief Petty Officer in 97. As an outgoing award I was recommended for the Meritorious Service Medal. The recommendation was refused because I wasn't a Master Chief and was told it was for E9 and up.

Response by SCPO Mike Creazzo made Mar 13 at 2018 5:42 PM

2018-03-13T17:42:13-04:00

The helo pilots lined up on the flight deck of the USS New Orleans so that they could take turns flying over the beach. Every pilot that went "feet dry" received the Bronze Star.

Response by PO1 Richard Tipton made Mar 13 at 2018 6:22 PM

2018-03-13T18:22:39-04:00

GySgt O'Donnell, A very interesting thought provoking set of words you have asked. As a receiver of military awards and a recommender for certain awards I believe in the orders of the officers appointed over me, no need to cite verbatim the Oath we all have taken, now when I let my feelings convolute whether a fellow shipmate deserves/merits an award lesser or greater than me it destroys the very fabric of our flag and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, "It's above my paygrade" still has merit, the front line is to do... not to ask... I will carry a message to Garcia and not be jealous with how come I didn't get one, why Johnny? Me too? Quite a bit of interesting reading, you have definitely stirred the pot, Thanks.

Response by MSgt Terry Mahan made Mar 13 at 2018 6:37 PM

2018-03-13T18:37:43-04:00

I recieved a AF MSM when I was an E-5 Staff Sergeant with 13 years in service. It took my Majors recomedation plus a 1 star indorsement. The General was Chuck Horner prior to Desert Storm while he was the Commander of the Air Defence Weapons Center at Tyndal AFB. The Major, my supervisor had to rewrite the recomendation twice to get Headquarters TAC to approve the award. I earned it. Do not pass judgement without knowing the details of the award and what the achievement was. Back in the 80's Staff Sergeants normally did not get a MSM's, was even difficult for E-6 Technical Sergeants to get one. Award is given for achievement not rank.

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Mar 13 at 2018 6:42 PM

2018-03-13T18:42:45-04:00

I think there has been some, as you say, "Watering down" across the board, with the exception of the MOH and the other top 3 or so. I think the all volunteer force has a lot to do with this. Who wants eye candy upon the chest. Seems like Hearldy is hard a work.

Response by LTC Karl Swanson made Mar 13 at 2018 6:54 PM

2018-03-13T18:54:13-04:00

I left active duty in 1992, but worked as a DA civilian from 1996-2013 in Korea. The first ARCOM I ever saw awarded was in 1962 to a notably outstanding 1LT. That was the only ARCOM award I knew of during the 3+ years I served in that infantry battalion. By the time I retired, just about every soldier received an award upon completion of his assignment to his or her unit and AAMs and ARCOMs were commonly awarded to some folks after completing an major event or exercise. That was still going on when I left Korea in 2013 and I suspect it still is today. In my experience, the Marines have the strictest awards policy, followed by the Navy, the Air Force and the Army where end of tour awards (AAM, ARCOM, MSM) are the rule rather than the exception.

Response by Maj Joe Kirkman made Mar 13 at 2018 7:05 PM

2018-03-13T19:05:27-04:00

After seeing the abuse of "I was there" awards during Desert Storm from CAR to Purple Hearts on up to Silver Stars by all branches, this does not surprise me. The best are still going to perform professionally so I don't think it really matters.

Response by MAJ Wes Reynolds made Mar 13 at 2018 7:24 PM

2018-03-13T19:24:07-04:00

Usually in USA, MSM or ARCOM awarded at PCS, MSM is rare but dependent on responsibilities and performance, not time in service

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Mar 13 at 2018 8:11 PM

2018-03-13T20:11:56-04:00

Any award is nothing more than a strip of ribbon and chunk of metal poured into a die. That said its value is what we put on it. I would worry more about the service that isn't awarding it. What criteria are they using. If the MOH can be given to a private, why does everyone make a big deal about every other award out there? Should all awards be one why have so many different awards? The Air Force came out with a Nuclear Service Medal, is the Air force the only people who ever worked with a Nuc? We all know that is not the case, should not every service issue that to anyone who worked with them? Why should some Whiney Officer get a medal for sitting in a silo when Nuclear weapons were at sea, under the sea, on the ground, in forward locations damn near up the Soviet Bloc sphincter muscle. Sorry Duty in Minot sucked, try it in a 60 Man Artillery Detachment in Turkey. My Brothers in Nuclear Artillery just loved that duty station. Commands do weird irrational things, some based on how it was when I was a Private or 2LT.

Response by SFC Kristie Young made Mar 13 at 2018 8:26 PM

2018-03-13T20:26:41-04:00

Awards are supposed to be awarded based on accomplishments not on rank.

Response by SFC Paul Smith made Mar 13 at 2018 8:39 PM

2018-03-13T20:39:07-04:00

took me 36 years to get mine

Response by TSgt Jerry Combs made Mar 13 at 2018 8:40 PM

2018-03-13T20:40:31-04:00

I was awarded the MSM at 9 years of service in the Air Force. It is NOT a common award. It also has no time in service requirement. I’ll bet the guys you saw did something extraordinary.

Response by Cpl Rainsford Deware III made Mar 13 at 2018 8:42 PM

2018-03-13T20:42:49-04:00

Meritorious service is meritorious service no matter what rank you hold or how much experience you have! If you comply with the written requirements you should receive the award! It funny how staff nci’s and officers think they deserve these type awards due to their rank!

Response by SSG Michael Raysses made Mar 13 at 2018 8:53 PM

2018-03-13T20:53:22-04:00

Cmon gunny!... this award is prestigious in itself.. and for those awarded it I'm sure it didn't come across someone's desk to say, "oh yea, he or she gets one too"???.... meritorious SERVICE ... is exactly THAT!... you were distinguished in your duties... plain and simple... SSgt Mike Raysses, USAR-Ret.... HOOAH/OORAH, Gunz!...

Response by SrA Brock L. made Mar 13 at 2018 8:56 PM

2018-03-13T20:56:16-04:00

I did 6.5 years in the USAF. I am a retired E4 with joint combat experience. I have seen AF E7s that have done nothing on a deployment. *AND I MEAN LITERALLY NOTHING* and get awarded an MSM because they were up Commands ass so far that i guess they felt sorry for them. I have been in situations where I have seen these awards being handed out like candy based solely on rank. It makes me sick. At the same time Ive done more than any of these "desk pilots" in the field and have received an ARAM and an AFCOM.

Response by LTC Scott McLean made Mar 13 at 2018 9:36 PM

2018-03-13T21:36:17-04:00

Yeah. Guess so. But when you have earned that inner peace because you know you did more than you thought you were capable of, and you know your buds and the people you were leading know the same thing about you, you just realize - internally and silently - that you don't need the medal, and you don't need anyone else to have this or that medal to appreciate who they are and give them the right respect. Usually a nod, a handshake that has that extra energy that says, "I get you, and I got your 6."

Response by GySgt Joseph Sebelisr made Mar 13 at 2018 10:11 PM

2018-03-13T22:11:00-04:00

When you said what branch that tells the whole story. I had a clean 22yr. career and got out as a E7.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 13 at 2018 11:50 PM

2018-03-13T23:50:51-04:00

25 July 2017

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2018 12:01 AM

2018-03-14T00:01:38-04:00

The army has standards in their regulations however, most commanders base the awarding of those medals based on scope of influence, which mean by rank. They don’t down grade them, they just tell the recommendor to re-write for the lower award. Happened to me at my last two jobs where I did as much or more than the people in equivalent jobs but the had higher rank. That’s just the way it is.

Response by SrA Jim Kosmicki made Mar 14 at 2018 3:01 AM

2018-03-14T03:01:45-04:00

I have great respect for the Marines,maybe you should have more respect for other GI’s?!

Response by MSgt Jerry Welch made Mar 14 at 2018 5:55 AM

2018-03-14T05:55:41-04:00

Sadly, if awarded before 20 years of service, means nothing!

Response by SCPO Mark Adams made Mar 14 at 2018 8:40 AM

2018-03-14T08:40:00-04:00

Yes! We need to go back to the good ole days.

Response by CPO Scott Powell made Mar 14 at 2018 9:46 AM

2018-03-14T09:46:46-04:00

I see this all the time now. Many awards are given as end of tour. Unreal! I'm jealous, maybe! Pissed, hell yes! Twenty years and service to be proud of, didn't even know what an end of tour award was!

Response by MSgt William Ewing made Mar 14 at 2018 10:14 AM

2018-03-14T10:14:08-04:00

I received this award at retirement (25 years in 1985). Until this article, I never saw it awarded an enlisted before 16 years service. Usually at retirement.

The Bronze Star has really been watered down since it became an "I Was There" award where an MSM (Non-combat) would be more appropriate.

Response by SSG Frank Cosgrove made Mar 14 at 2018 11:13 AM

2018-03-14T11:13:50-04:00

I received an MSM for three years service with the 8th Infantry Division in Europe. I believe I earned it having served with honor and distinction. I am also proud of the four US Army Commendation Medals received for service in other commands. I had been recognized by the Division Commander with the Pathfinder Professionalism Award (8th Infantry Division). There were very high standards in the 1970s for these awards.

Response by 1stSgt Scott McKnight made Mar 14 at 2018 2:19 PM

2018-03-14T14:19:18-04:00

I agree no way a Ssgt should be sporting a msm

Response by GySgt Marty Nonya made Mar 14 at 2018 3:41 PM

2018-03-14T15:41:23-04:00

I wasnt awarded one after 21 yrs of service because i had been at the unit 13 months. My OIC and and CommChief were upset because they felt i had done more in 13 months than my prdecessor.in 3 years but rules are rules and i retired witha Navy Comm. I only found this out after i had retired.

Response by HN Ernest Ramsey made Mar 14 at 2018 3:42 PM

2018-03-14T15:42:57-04:00

When I was in I witnessed many category of awards that I believed to being watered down.

Response by Sgt Bill Rutledge made Mar 14 at 2018 4:47 PM

2018-03-14T16:47:24-04:00

They must have accomplished a meritorious achievement.
I made rank real fast in the Marines by Meritorious Promotions.

Response by CWO4 Ward Posey made Mar 14 at 2018 5:11 PM

2018-03-14T17:11:02-04:00

Metals are not awarded by rank, they awarded for achievements.

Response by CW4 Robert Augur made Mar 14 at 2018 5:37 PM

2018-03-14T17:37:53-04:00

I retired in 1996 and thought at that time the MSM was being over awarded. As much as things change they seem to stay the same.

Response by MAJ Francis Lee made Mar 14 at 2018 6:07 PM

2018-03-14T18:07:35-04:00

I served from 80 to 16... Infantry Officer/SOC, Two wars and cold war West Germany-South Korea. I felt honored to receive a MSM at retirement. Your right... It should remain a high standard/service award.

Response by SSgt Paul Mulwitz made Mar 14 at 2018 6:12 PM

2018-03-14T18:12:28-04:00

I was written up twice to receive the Meritorious Service Medal in 8 years active duty. Both times it was downgraded to Air Force Commendation Medal before being awarded. I suspect part of the reason was the fact my work was highly classified and the citation write up had few details.

Response by Sgt Chuck Sawyer made Mar 14 at 2018 7:37 PM

2018-03-14T19:37:51-04:00

TO BE AWARDED A 'BRONZE STAR' IN THE CORPS, ONE HAD TO DIE OR ALMOST. ARMY LT. , A FRIEND, GOT ONE FOR ADMIN. DUTIES WHILE IN COMBAT. MET ONE CORPORAL IN THE CORPS WHOM WAS AWARDED A 'BRONZE'.....A FLANKING MOVEMENT AGAINST AN ENTRENCHED ENEMY MACHINE NEST. THEY WERE STARTING TO MOVE ON THAT SAME FLANK. HE STATED HE AND HIS BUDDY WERE 'LUCKY'...MORE LIKE BLESSED !!

Response by SFC Richard Lee made Mar 14 at 2018 7:38 PM

2018-03-14T19:38:41-04:00

Before I retired, I learned that a lot of those award citations are written by the service member themselves and signed off on by their leadership. When I got mine at retirement, the citation was done by the !SG and commander and had to be signed by a General Officer. But I am aware of many senior noncommissioned officers who wrote their own citations having 2 and 3 awards of the MSM.

Response by SCPO William Kerker made Mar 14 at 2018 9:01 PM

2018-03-14T21:01:27-04:00

I've seen e-3's with Bronze and Silver Stars with no additional coverage ie V's or Oak's, Medals don't mean shit any more.

Response by Cpl Stephen Forest made Mar 14 at 2018 10:56 PM

2018-03-14T22:56:43-04:00

Everything is harder to achieve in the corps , that's what separates us from the others .
Semper Fi

Response by Col Mike Mounts made Mar 14 at 2018 11:36 PM

2018-03-14T23:36:40-04:00

MSMs are not easy to get generally speaking

Response by CW2 Kenneth Sanborn made Mar 15 at 2018 12:21 AM

2018-03-15T00:21:38-04:00

I've seen people who deserve certain medals not get them. Not delivering on a CUCV chair for my BC cost me a Bronze Star in ODS. I got my MSM after 23 years in the military it wasn't a retirement medal. It was for R&D work for systems that directly support combat soldiers.

Response by SFC Kevin Holdcraft made Mar 15 at 2018 12:43 AM

2018-03-15T00:43:13-04:00

When you consider that I only got mine awarded at my retirement from the Army after 39+ years(active & reserve) service, and a Legion of Merit was declined, it does seem like they are being given away more freely these days, although not as freely as the Army Achievement Medal and the Army Commendation Medal. Even Bronze Stars seem to be handed out like candy these days. So I’m not sure how any of the services are justifying the award of this medal at such an early time in a service members career. It seems like it could be a career killer if they don’t continue to “walk on water”, and it lessens the award of those that busted their ass to actually earn it.

Response by LT Hans Fett made Mar 15 at 2018 12:57 AM

2018-03-15T00:57:38-04:00

IMHO, standardization of medal award criteria across all military services is required in order to be equitable to all. Although I have no hard data to support it, I believe it fair to say if you see a Marine wearing an award, he or she EARNED it.

Response by SFC Don Lawrence made Mar 15 at 2018 1:59 AM

2018-03-15T01:59:42-04:00

Awards are not to be based on rank or length of service. This is in the Army regulation but has been forgotten or ignored. The act or acts are what is important.

Response by GySgt John O'Donnell made Mar 15 at 2018 9:35 AM

2018-03-15T09:35:44-04:00

In general, the Marine Corps awards superior performers with Achievement Medals for first two enlistments (E-1 thru E-5), Commendation Medals for next two enlistments (E-6 thru E-7), and MSM for next enlistment up to 20 years and beyond (E-8 thru E-9). Now there are out some “Meritorious/Outstanding” performers than may earn the next higher award due to the level responsibilities held, but they are the exceptions and not the rule.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2018 9:48 AM

2018-03-15T09:48:08-04:00

It's a genuine concern.

Response by MSgt Steven Treat made Mar 15 at 2018 2:46 PM

2018-03-15T14:46:09-04:00

When I was in the Air Force you weren't eligible for the MSM until E-7. That being said the MSM was established as an alternative to the bronze star. It is awarded to those who actions merit a bronze star, but were not engaged in direct action with an enemy. There is no real justifiable reason to limit the award to those E-7 or greater, specially if their efforts had a significant positive impact on mission accomplishment.

Response by SSG Ed Hover made Mar 15 at 2018 3:58 PM

2018-03-15T15:58:47-04:00

I always thought that the MSM was the peacetime equivilant of a Bronze star

Response by TSgt Rje English made Mar 15 at 2018 4:55 PM

2018-03-15T16:55:40-04:00

Last time I saw they were handing Bronze Stars out like they were candy for meritorious service.

Response by LCDR H.J. "Walt" Walter made Mar 15 at 2018 5:09 PM

2018-03-15T17:09:43-04:00

No, each service should set their own rules for the award

Response by PO3 Stan Colenso made Mar 15 at 2018 5:11 PM

2018-03-15T17:11:18-04:00

Dont know.

Response by PO1 David Daniel made Mar 15 at 2018 5:24 PM

2018-03-15T17:24:54-04:00

As far i I know the MSM was for Officers in Leadership roles who performed beyond the call of duty in either combat or non-combat Every one I saw awarded was to such.....Being in the service during non wartime is truly arduous duty for those people with a true warrior spirit.. while we do have to defend the integrity of Medals that reward heroism and self sacrifice such as Bronze and Silver Stars, and the CMH, Medals are for those of Earned them We either have the pride and Honor that we earned this or that we got it pencil fu--ed for promotion point. I know what you are talking about Gunny But without the personal pride and honor even these awards are nothing more than shiny gum wrappers glued to our uniforms Semper fi HM1 David R Daniel HM1 FMF USN ret.... 1st MarDiv 83-87

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2018 5:35 PM

2018-03-15T17:35:53-04:00

The Navy requires LCDR or CW03 at min and verifiable impact of service region wide or across multiple installations.

Response by SSG John Eller made Mar 15 at 2018 6:15 PM

2018-03-15T18:15:31-04:00

Without knowing circumstances surrounding the award in question I won't comment. However in my 20 years of service I think awards are given that should not have been which indicates to me a leadership/education problem.

Response by SgtMaj Gary Heinz made Mar 15 at 2018 8:28 PM

2018-03-15T20:28:55-04:00

Yes it is and always has been easier for members of the other services to get this award

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2018 10:40 PM

2018-03-15T22:40:24-04:00

After 20+ years, no one has it right, nor will they ever. One thing is for certain, if you feel rank equals a certain award, you are part of the problem. I was shot down two times in my career for MSMs because of my rank. Both as a SSG serving in a SFC position all while running circles around those other senior NCOs and watched every last one of them walk out with an MSM. I’ve had outstanding subordinates experience the same. I’ve also seen retards with rank walk out of a job with MSMs. The body of work that a service member puts in should be what matters. My suggestion (and many others through the years) is to remove the rank and name of the service member compleltey from the form. This could be digitally. All documents are filed under your SSN anyhow. So take the info off the form and award on write ups and merit alone. This would go a long way to remove what is obviously a rank issue when it comes to awards.

Response by GySgt Jesse Hoover made Mar 16 at 2018 12:36 AM

2018-03-16T00:36:02-04:00

Not just this medal..... I am a Marine Vet currently living outside of Fort Hood, Texas..... there must be at least one or two Thousand Bronze Star license plates running around here.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2018 4:29 AM

2018-03-16T04:29:52-04:00

The problem with the award system in the Marines is that it is somehow connected with rank and time in service! Like for example a well deserving lance corporal could do a lot more than a Ssgt or LT would under the same scenario during a combat op and receive a lesser medal, because of the rank of the Marines.(I have seen this happen) None of which has anything to do with the actual award. If you read the criteria it has nothing to do with any of those.

Criteria:
The acts or services that justify the awarding of the Meritorious Service Medal must be equivalent to that necessary for the awarding of the Legion of Merit, only performed while in a duty of lesser degree but still significant responsibility. It is awarded to a member of the military of the Armed Forces of the United States for having set him or herself apart from his/her comrades by outstanding non-combat meritorious achievement or service to the United States after 16 January 1969.

Response by SP6 Walt Rice made Mar 16 at 2018 6:20 AM

2018-03-16T06:20:19-04:00

Whiny civilians are now becoming whiny soldiers, used to be a time whenyou joinedthe military after you went through basic or boot you became a responsible and mature citizen they are now giving medals for just doing the things that you're supposed to be doing as kids they got medals and trophies for just participating that just now follow through to adulthood

Response by Sgt Richard Diaz made Mar 16 at 2018 8:59 AM

2018-03-16T08:59:00-04:00

I have notice that current serving military have many more rows of ribbons than when I served 1966-1970! I believe there are ribbons and medals for so many more things now!

Response by SSG John Clemons made Mar 20 at 2018 4:19 PM

2018-03-20T16:19:20-04:00

If they earned them and have proper paperwork what is the problem

Response by CW4 Leonard Glasser made Mar 22 at 2018 9:37 AM

2018-03-22T09:37:45-04:00

As a young Marine an aged Iwo Jima savior told me that when people start talking about medals get distance because it's usually at your expense. In Vietnam I performed an action that was questioned if it warranted a recommendation for an award, the Gunny asked "Was he being shot at" to which the reply was "No", Gunny said negative, end of conversation. You can see where I am coming from. (CW4 AUS RET)

Response by SSG William Edwards made Mar 26 at 2018 6:36 PM

2018-03-26T18:36:31-04:00

We all know that vaguely explained achievements may lead to an award for a “job well done” is that just to boost a ADSM cuz that’s all you got? Everyone knows wartime medals or awards increase in number & importance just cuz you’re receiving incoming. Should be for discipline, valor, & achievement. Example: Legion if Merit just cuz you made Lt Col for 16 years.

Response by SSG William Edwards made Mar 26 at 2018 6:43 PM

2018-03-26T18:43:33-04:00

Look at awards from WW11 & Korea & Viet Nam. Service members had to get combat wounded, POW, or dead just to get a PH or BSM now finally some are recognized 70 years later for bleeding out on the field of battle. Totes BS! We’re the the typewriters broken or the clerks too busy writing up Birds & Gens? The NCOs & EMS won the damned battles, yo!

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2018 10:44 AM

2018-03-27T10:44:25-04:00

Why doesn't anyone want to talk about the elephant in the room? You know, the sad joke that the Awards and Decorations process has become? My Grandfather fought in WWII and served with the USAAF in ETO and was forward deployed to Poltava AB in the Soviet Union. When he was mustered out in '45, he had four (4) ribbons. Now, I grant you, he didn't actually 'DO' much in the war but today, you can graduate Basic Training and have 4 (or more) ribbons! Yes, they are 'gimmies' but still.... As for the 'higher' awards and decorations, the ones that 'count', they have become a joke too. When 'our' officers awarded each other Bronze Stars I wasn't the only one who stood there thinking WTF but I looked it up: you CAN get a BS and NOT have it be for Valor. Having said all of this I would like to propose a solution to this issue: Remove consideration of Awards and Decorations from the Promotion system. I can hear the screaming already but the elephant would go back to the circus where it belongs....

Response by Sgt Jeffrey Warner made Apr 1 at 2018 7:57 PM

2018-04-01T19:57:09-04:00

Every branch of service has it's own level to issue and receive an award. Typically someone needs to be an exceptional service members, without any concern of rank or time in service to receive an award.
Just look at the persons who have been awarded Medals of Honor, branch Crosses, Silver Stars, Bronze Stars etc.
In WW2, Jimmy Doolittle was awarded the Medal of Honor for leading planes in an air bombing campaign over Japan. He was not fired upon, he was the man along with others, who dropped bombs on an island nation who believed itself unable to have such an incident occurred.
While Privates, Corporals, Sergeants, with fewer then two years were hero's in actions that cost them their lives or limbs. To witness a service member who has received such high awards, is proof that rank, age, time in, has nothing to do with the individuals actions. I knew several Marines and Sailors who had received high awards, yet had not been in for more then three years, but had achieved significant accomplishments that gave the the recognition of being in the top 1% of their service.
I have met three Medal of Honor recipients. One from WW2, one from Korea and one from Vietnam.
Not one of the three bragged about their award, in one case, the Korean War recipient refused to wear the award while in uniform. His reasoning was because it had nothing to do with the other military members around him. He believed it was a personal award.
So as for age, rank, time in, awards do not care!

Response by MSgt Daniel Toole made Apr 5 at 2018 12:00 AM

2018-04-05T00:00:12-04:00

You also have to realize that SSgt could have been a PJ or Combat Controller since their Indoc school is also there at Lackland.

Response by Col Jonathan Brazee made Apr 14 at 2018 6:39 PM

2018-04-14T18:39:58-04:00

WHile at the Pentagon, I volunteeres to work on several of the events for President Reagan's second inaguration. I worked two events and had to fun evenings. They had pulled quite a few people, however, for up to six weeks to work preparing for the inaguration. At the conclusion, all the longer-term volunteers received awards, and all based on rank. I found this rather odd, first that everyone received an award, then the rank determination. On one committee, a lieutenant colonel I knew received a Defense Meritorious Service Medal, as did the Army, Air Force, and Navy O5's. However, there was a Coast Guard lieutenant on the same committee, doing the same work as the O5's. Yet he received the Joint Service Commendation Medal--for the same work. Forget about the question of whether a person should get an award strictly because they served in a six-week billet, but it seems to me that if a junior military member does the same work as a more senior member, then they certainly deserve the same award--maybe higher.

Response by Sgt Tun Tavern made Apr 21 at 2018 11:56 AM

2018-04-21T11:56:44-04:00

Marine Corps side I’ve seen it only issued to retire’s... typically E-8’s, E-9’s a officers when they compete 20yrs or more... I agree with above, NCO level should only receive achievement or commendation level medals unless a combat award... Some branches tend to over write awards, especially the bronze star with no V

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2018 8:23 PM

2018-04-24T20:23:56-04:00

Hello there!!! As a 42A, i have processed literally thousands of awards, both deployed and in garrison. What grinds my gears to no end is the fact that more times than not, a Sr. NCO or officer would recieve an MSM/BSM just because of their grade or position. On the other hand, you have these high speed Soldiers working their behinds off, but because of their RANK, they are usually awarded AAMs and ARCOMS, when they clearly deserved a much higher award. Case in point, during my 2nd deployment, there was actual guidance put out saying what each rank would recieve; this clearly was in direct contradiction to regulatory guidance. This irked me down to my soul....but did anyone in leadership positions advice otherwise......i'll just leave this right here.

Response by CPT Alfred Smiley made Apr 25 at 2018 6:18 PM

2018-04-25T18:18:14-04:00

Awards are odd things.
As a lieutenant in the mid-1980s, I deployed from Panama on missions all over Central America -- frequently operating on my own and with no direct supervision. At the end of my three-year tour, all of the officers over me had already rotated out and I had to go to the Brigade XO, hat in hand, asking for an award. I was told to write myself up and ended up with a simple ARCOM.
My next assignment was doing staff work back at the school house (Ft. Huachuca). At the end of two years, I was shocked to be handed an MSM for essentially coming to work everyday.
Had my efforts been honestly recognized on the basis of merit, the two awards should have been reversed. In reality, I think they were awarded on the basis of time in service and rank. Lieutenants get ARCOMs; Captains get MSMs.

Response by SMSgt Dave Daughdrill made May 4 at 2018 7:59 AM

2018-05-04T07:59:50-04:00

During my active time in the Army I saw the award go to retiring commanders for their time in command. I never saw this award to lower enlisted rates for their work. They were lucky to receive an Army Commendation Medal for three years or more of excellent service and work. In 17 years of service in the Air Guard and Air Force Reserve I never saw a Meritorious Service Medal awarded.

Response by SSgt Joshua Hurley made May 6 at 2018 5:00 AM

2018-05-06T05:00:40-04:00

Meanwhile.... members of the other services look at Marines without one and wonder what commander's Wheaties that Marine pissed on, or how much of a dirtbag he/she must be.

Response by SSgt Joshua Hurley made May 6 at 2018 5:33 AM

2018-05-06T05:33:49-04:00

Jesus H Fuck. So many douchebags here, I'm suddenly reminded why I separated. If someone earned something (or even was awarded it without "earning" it), how about you just be happy for the person and move on with your life? And even if you felt like *you* were passed-over for an award that went to someone that did not deserve it..... well tough shit you little goddamn pansy. Your superiors obviously did not agree with you. Get over it, and get over yourselves.

Response by MSG Ray Manzano made May 9 at 2018 4:47 PM

2018-05-09T16:47:19-04:00

I guess from all my time in the service from 1972 to 2007. I've seen awards slowly get watered down. In 2003 Iraq I saw BSM given out more or less based on rank, E-8 and above, ARCOM to E-5 to E-7 and AAM to below E-5 for completing their tours and just doing their jobs. I torn up my award for a BSM, but I accepted my MSM back in the states for doing my job over there. Now a days if I don't see a Bronze Star Medal with a V device, I really don't give it much respect or recognition, because over there BSM were being handed out like candy. My later tours in Iraq and Afghanistan it got a little better, but they were still being given out just for doing their jobs.

Response by SSG Michael Davis made May 10 at 2018 5:29 PM

2018-05-10T17:29:39-04:00

Sorry, but the awarding of medals has never been standardized... even WITHIN a service. I'm guessing the Marines have a tight shot group due to their numbers, but that's about it.

Rank and time in service have nothing to do with it in the Army. Can't speak for the other services. There *is* an *unwritten* rule that you need an Achievement before a Commendation, and a Commendation before an MSM, but that's not codified anywhere.

The attitude of units tends to be driven by the senior approving official for each level of award. We all know that every CO has his/her take on things, pet peves, etc. and that's what drives the train including on awards that lack specific requirements.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 12:09 PM

2018-05-27T12:09:12-04:00

It is pretty clear that the awarding of medals is different across each branch of the service. It seems that it also is different across ranks within the services. It is a personal recognition by someone for the job you do and how well you do it. I don't consider it being watered down because it is different because of a lack of standardization. The system of Awards and Decorations has been in place for a lot of years and it will hold up over time. Most of us want personal recognition and it is the job of the Leadership to determine what that is. A Pat on the back or a full blown awards ceremony is cheap for what most of us did while in the service of our country.

Response by MSgt Joe Stults made Jun 2 at 2018 11:23 AM

2018-06-02T11:23:58-04:00

In 1979 I left Lackland AFB where I had served 4 years as a military training instructor, I was an E-5 but was selected for E-6. My supervisor recommended me for the MSM which was downgraded to the Air Force Commendation Medal of which I already had 3. It was pretty much common knowledge that the MSM for E-7 or higher.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2018 11:39 PM

2018-06-04T23:39:11-04:00

I found it interesting that in one of my commands I had a few soldiers who’d transferred call me to see if their awards were being processed. I, of course, asked “what award?” since they would have gone through me. They seemed to think they should be getting awards just for leaving our unit, which sounds like a strange reason for an award. I told them I would send their inquiry up to the 1SG, the CO, and the BN S-1, which I did, but since I never heard anything back nor was I asked to verify their eligibility, I can only guess that no one recommended them. So no awards for transferring out. I never received an award for transferring out of two different units after having done a ton of great stuff for both, so I’m guessing that just leaving a unit probably does not warrant an automatic award.

Response by SPC Jim Whitehead made Jun 6 at 2018 8:38 AM

2018-06-06T08:38:20-04:00

Medals, medal, medals, some of the brass need a brief case to haul them around. Make medal OF WAR an honor, for killing other people!!! Our military of which I was a Viet Nam Vet, have been fully trained to act and react like ruthless murderous! Let's make a medal for this! Ain't we proud?

Response by SGM Harvey Boone made Jun 10 at 2018 1:16 PM

2018-06-10T13:16:56-04:00

Awards are supposed to be for the individuals actions not his rank however we all know that the rank is the major think looked when putting in one in for an award if you are ""Senior"" NCO or officer then you will most likely get it other wise you are SOL. That's why you see seniors NCO's and Officers walking lopsided because they have received the awards that the individual soldier should have received 99% of those wearing them do not deserve them. I was in a unit once where they awarded a Caption a Bronze star and a letter of reprimand for the same action. When he should have been relieved also saw a captain who failed the A.P.F.T was on Overweight program and relieved from command for this receive an M. S. M. Now that's your Army today.

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Sep 4 at 2018 5:04 PM

2018-09-04T17:04:44-04:00

Many questions!!! Were there any overseas identifications on their uniform? Did Soldiers/Airman have Purple Hearts? Did the MSMs have a V? Did you speak to the military members?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2018 4:31 PM

2018-09-08T16:31:01-04:00

The whole awards process is skewered in my opinion but that is a topic for another discussion. I am a Staff Sergeant and I was awarded a MSM for performing the duties and responsibilities of a E7/E8 for the better part of a year which was the justification the first GO in my chain of command gave when it was awarded. I have noticed the award lately being given out as a PCS award for Enlisted and Officers being awarded the Legion of Merit. Yes. I agree, standards have been lowered for awarding it.

Response by SFC Mark Lathan made Nov 9 at 2018 6:53 PM

2018-11-09T18:53:46-05:00

Medals have become more about career management, than merit.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2018 9:16 PM

2018-11-09T21:16:26-05:00

As a health care provider, I feel I served honorably but didn’t deserve an MSM though I received one. Better than any medal or certificate that I have received is the satisfaction of having enlisted medics see my work and further their careers by going to the Army PA program and having them tell me that my example led to them furthering their careers.

Response by SP5 Dennis Loberger made Nov 9 at 2018 10:37 PM

2018-11-09T22:37:15-05:00

Unless you know what they did to earn an MSM, you have no reason to doubt they earned it. There is nothing to indicate the highest standards weren't achieved. 2 airmen near each other who have an MSM don't prove standards weren't met

Response by 1SG Frank Walker made Nov 10 at 2018 8:03 AM

2018-11-10T08:03:37-05:00

I agree. I was a First Sergeant in the Army with 15 years of service before I was awarded one of these. Went on the receive 2 more after that.

Response by SGM Wally Holston made Nov 10 at 2018 8:32 AM

2018-11-10T08:32:40-05:00

Received mine at retirement after 31 years. Never got to wear it while serving. Officers tend to start collecting them as soon as they become field grade.

Response by MAJ John Kirkbride made Nov 10 at 2018 10:16 AM

2018-11-10T10:16:59-05:00

It’s not only what you do to earn a MSM, but the scope and impact. That said, that is why you don’t generally see lower ranks with this award. I earned my first MSM when I gave up company command in the 82d Airborne Division, 210 rock steady paratroopers and close to $100M in equipment. During this period we won the Dept of Army Maintenance Award for Medium sized units, the Division flag football championship and several other award......all on top of our day to day job of supporting 3 Airborne Inf Brigades, Divardy and the divisions separate battalions. I can’t imagine what an E5 would do in terms of scope to earn such an award, but guess it’s possible.

Response by 1SG Mark Reed made Nov 11 at 2018 1:57 PM

2018-11-11T13:57:50-05:00

Time in service has nothing to do with the level of an Award being issued. I guess an 18 or 19 year old shouldn't be awarded a SS or MOH either. It's the individual that being awarded not the Rank on their lapels

Response by SFC William Huse made Nov 11 at 2018 5:15 PM

2018-11-11T17:15:19-05:00

I received the MSM when I retired. I always thought that was the primary reason for the award. All service is meritorious, but I don't see a reason for the award except for retirement.

Response by SPC George Jones made Nov 11 at 2018 5:45 PM

2018-11-11T17:45:05-05:00

Had a little problem with a 1st Sgt (not worth the details) in Vietnam. Article 15 ensued; I never signed it. I was never brought up for charges because I was guitless. All for which I never received the MSM. I took it very seriously.

Response by SFC Douglas Kirby made Nov 13 at 2018 10:32 AM

2018-11-13T10:32:36-05:00

Were they both prior service who may have earned them for their service then. I was put in for a LOM that got downgraded to a MSM twice.

Response by SSgt Bob Roberts made Nov 13 at 2018 12:07 PM

2018-11-13T12:07:42-05:00

A good deal of it is strictly politics. I saw a BSM awarded with the criteria being that it had to go to a female E-3. Same job as everyone else but somebody at the top wanted a person matching those parameters acknowledged.

Response by SSG Don Rollins made Nov 13 at 2018 12:10 PM

2018-11-13T12:10:10-05:00

i was awarded the msm at 19 yrs in service and oak leaf cluster at 21 yrs service prior to retirement.

Response by SFC Michael Robison made Nov 13 at 2018 12:59 PM

2018-11-13T12:59:46-05:00

Your post lacks forethought... what does your time in service have to do with how GREAT you perform a job?

If you look at length of service as the same as quality of time served, then you my friend may make another puss poor senior leader some day!

You do not judge the merit of a man by the amount of paychecks he has received, but by what he has done to receive those paycheck... does he just show up each and every day and do the MINIMUM to stay, or does he excel in each and every way?

You would do good to remember that, and not worry about when other got what award... but how they got it!!!

Response by SPC Craig Miller made Nov 13 at 2018 1:00 PM

2018-11-13T13:00:56-05:00

"Considering in the Marine Corp there is a very high standard"
Reminds of a joke I heard where St. Peter was showing a new soldier around heaven. They went into each branches area to meet the elders and then came to a brick wall. The new soldier in heaven asked what is behind the brick wall, to which St. Peter replied ssssshhhhhh, that's where the Marines are, they think they are the only ones up here.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 1:11 PM

2018-11-13T13:11:45-05:00

I'd say take that with MASSIVE grain of salt. Unless you've read the citation yourself, you have no idea what that service member did to receive such an award. I've met Marines who had a NAM with a V device, talked to him and from what he and his friends described it sounded like what would have beeb a BSM to any other branch. I know a couple of Air Force E5s who were awarded BSMs for tactical deployments to countries no one will know about and their citations say the standard redacted DoD b.s. don't get hung up on what other service members have on their chest. Service members find themselves in all manner of situations in today's battlespace and I've met very few who haven't risen to the occasion and served faithfully and honorably. Clearly someone thought they were deserving.

Response by SGT Stephen Crawford made Nov 13 at 2018 1:23 PM

2018-11-13T13:23:52-05:00

Is the award for time in service or actions of the service member. I was awarded the Bronze star as a E-5 the next lowest rank was a E-8 or a O-3. All except my self were awarded the Bronze Star for administrative a tions in theater. Were as I ran convoys throughout are sector and managed my battle space during contact. So again is the award for time in service or the actions of the service member.

Response by SSG Byron Howard Sr made Nov 13 at 2018 1:40 PM

2018-11-13T13:40:38-05:00

I was at a unit formation taking photos of awardes one guy got an Arcom he was on a helicopter it caught fire he alerted the crew they landed he put out the fire repaired the thing and they completed their mission. The guy next to him got an Arcom for typing up the orders of the guy in the helicopter.

Response by PO1 Michael Moe made Nov 13 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-11-13T14:28:47-05:00

I don’t get envious of others medals if one has them I hope they earned them.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Nov 13 at 2018 2:44 PM

2018-11-13T14:44:20-05:00

You're right, the MSM is awarded differently among the different branches. If branches only awarded it as originally intended, then it would be a retirement award after 20 years honorable service. I received 6 MSMs before 20 years of service. The 1st as a SFC (E7) coming off of 3 years drill sergeant duty. The "watering down" of awards value is too vague a question. As long as your branch stays consistant within itself, don't worry about the others. In 32 years, I never ever thought about the awards practices of the other branches. I wasn't competing with them for promotion. Just my 2 cents

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 3:10 PM

2018-11-13T15:10:52-05:00

I had my bronze star watered down to a second for I was a specialist and both my pl and co didn’t want a lower enlisted get the same award.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 3:17 PM

2018-11-13T15:17:59-05:00

No and that's a good thing. I've seen people deserve them, in lower pay grades and get less. Once again, we have to stop with this rank begets certain awards bullshit.

Response by MSgt John Duffy made Nov 13 at 2018 4:06 PM

2018-11-13T16:06:23-05:00

It use to be a high standard in the AF when I was in 68-91. Didn't get my first till 16 years in.

Response by SGT Richard Domenden made Nov 13 at 2018 4:07 PM

2018-11-13T16:07:14-05:00

There's not really a " high standard" as mentioed for receiving MSM. Pls read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritorious_Service_Medal_(United_States)

Meritorious Service Medal (United States) - Wikipedia

The Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) is a military award presented to members of the United States Armed Forces who distinguished themselves by outstanding meritorious achievement or service to the United States subsequent to January 16, 1969.

Response by SSG(P) Brian Kliesen made Nov 13 at 2018 4:38 PM

2018-11-13T16:38:15-05:00

As in all awards, it is not a time in grade or rank requirement, but what was actually accomplished. Too often boards downgrade awards based on this and personnel who should be recognized for their efforts are not. Boards are arbitrary and too often they ignore recommendations or information. The previous comment about the O4 Fobbit getting the MSM and the E4 trooper who was outside the wire for 300 days getting an AAM is spot on. The system is broken and is not likely to be fixed. In my reserve unit we send up award recommendations and they disappear, never to be seen again. It does no good if your approving authority doesnt read or act upon your recommendations.

Response by TSgt Michael Rhodes made Nov 13 at 2018 5:17 PM

2018-11-13T17:17:55-05:00

As a retired NCO in the Air Force, I believe this medal and a few others should be awarded based on outstanding action, above and beyond call of duty , not rank, nor TIS. I was a Cook during Viet Nam, and a Master Instructor the last twelve years. I resurected a Training program from unsatisfactory for two years, to an outstanding rating by the Air Forcr in a year, working 12-15 hours a day to turn it around. This was to a Group, not squadron, that played a major role in Desert Storm after put back on course. I was put in for The Air Force Commendation Medal...which would count as three points toward promotion. It was downgraded to an Achievement Medal
( 1 point). I missed promotion the last two times by 2 and 1 points respectively . But saw many Airmen be awarded the Commendation medal that contributed very little to the mission, so they would stand a better chance of promotion. I’m not a medal guy, so I just let it go, I knew the quality of my performance and that’s really all that mattered, and held my head up high. Funny thing is, upon retirement, I was awarded the Commendation medal, when I would never test again! Heck, I’d go back in a heartbeat in spite of the politics!

Response by Sgt Harold Martinez made Nov 13 at 2018 5:18 PM

2018-11-13T17:18:33-05:00

What the heck? Where was mine after basic? Oh thats right, I was a Marine. We had higher standards.

Response by Cpl Chance Trapp made Nov 13 at 2018 6:20 PM

2018-11-13T18:20:27-05:00

I was put in for a BSM while in Iraq as an E-4 (Army). It was downgraded to a MSM because I was not an E-6 or above. Units have BS criteria they establish for awards, regardless of what the regs say.

Response by SFC Glenn Kozak made Nov 13 at 2018 7:09 PM

2018-11-13T19:09:22-05:00

I got an MSM when I retired from the Army.

Response by CPT Charles Emery made Nov 13 at 2018 7:35 PM

2018-11-13T19:35:32-05:00

I was in the 82nd in peacetime in the late ‘70s and you had to do something truly outstanding to receive much more than a letter of commendation.

Response by SSG Jeff Gerfen made Nov 13 at 2018 7:47 PM

2018-11-13T19:47:07-05:00

There was a very high standard when I was in. After 20 years of dedicated service, no trouble, a good soldier my highest award was the Arcom. In the Army, an MSM recommendation that is downgraded will be approved as an Army Commendation Medal (ARCOM). I think it has been cheapened.

Response by LTC Kenneth Harris made Nov 13 at 2018 8:52 PM

2018-11-13T20:52:15-05:00

The biggest issue I saw before retirement - inconsistent awards. The Army awards system should be based on merit but is often based on rank and position at least for service awards. And you cannot separate easily those based on service versus achievement.

Response by LTC Kenneth Harris made Nov 13 at 2018 8:58 PM

2018-11-13T20:58:00-05:00

I have to add at some point awards don't mean a lot. I had a group of Soldiers who thought the greatest award was going home at the end of 14 months intact. Home was priceless.

Response by SFC Charlie Broadus II made Nov 13 at 2018 10:44 PM

2018-11-13T22:44:17-05:00

Rank and/or time in service should not matter when receiving an award although approving authority's unfairly downgrade awards to lower ranked solders that would otherwise be approved

Response by MSgt Eric Arvidson made Nov 13 at 2018 10:51 PM

2018-11-13T22:51:22-05:00

usually, the award of the MSM is for retirement. Questions about the award can be seen in the regulations.

Response by PO1 Tony Harris made Nov 13 at 2018 10:53 PM

2018-11-13T22:53:38-05:00

I know for a fact that most medals are "awarded" based on who likes you...the process is not always based on merit or regulations.

Response by SGT Mark Rhodes made Nov 14 at 2018 12:33 AM

2018-11-14T00:33:16-05:00

I think the whole awards and decorations needs an overhaul. I have a lot of chest candy, not to brag, because some units gave them out left and right. I will say the one I worked my ass off for was the MSM but it was down graded to an ARCOM. While this unit gave every officer an MSM for just being stationed there and mine got downgraded because I wasn’t an officer just goes to show the system is broken.

Response by SGT Mark Estes made Nov 14 at 2018 12:44 AM

2018-11-14T00:44:54-05:00

I believe so and it’s higher than a BSM in order of presidence, kind of a joke

Response by SFC Eduardo Figueroa made Nov 14 at 2018 7:06 AM

2018-11-14T07:06:47-05:00

Took me 20 yrs of service to get the award, & I was a SFC (E-7) in the Regular ARMY, combat vet, w a Bronse Star w V device! Something is wrong in today’s military!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 8:22 AM

2018-11-14T08:22:54-05:00

It’s being watered down because the BSM can’t be given out now without valor

Response by MSgt Steve LaFata made Nov 14 at 2018 8:28 AM

2018-11-14T08:28:14-05:00

Agree 100%. I’ve seen both enlisted and officer USAF members wearing up to 5 stars on the MSM. They give it away as end-of-tour awards. Disgusting...keep in mind after my 21 year Marine Career, I served as a Senior Civilian wit the Air Force for 20 years.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 8:46 AM

2018-11-14T08:46:26-05:00

Still high expectations. It’s hard as hell to get an MSM in the army below the rank of SFC. Whoever has it has worked their ass off to get it

Response by SFC Howard Kempf made Nov 14 at 2018 9:54 AM

2018-11-14T09:54:42-05:00

I received mine for in lieu of a BSM while in OIF3. Army gives these out regularly if you already have a few ARCOMs.

Response by SFC Richard Pineda made Nov 14 at 2018 11:09 AM

2018-11-14T11:09:01-05:00

The award is based on the merit of the accomplishment, not the rank or T.I.S of the individual. If you don’t believe me look it up. There is no rank requirement for the Army.

Response by TSgt Patrick Doyle made Nov 14 at 2018 11:11 AM

2018-11-14T11:11:25-05:00

Have seen it to, the airforce seems to give this one away

Response by SFC Kenneth Kreps made Nov 14 at 2018 11:16 AM

2018-11-14T11:16:51-05:00

Awards and decorations should be awarded by merit, not by rank or time. MSM is an award lateral to the bronze star, awarded for valor in combat, whereas the MSM is awarded for meritorious svcs, NOT necessarily combat.

Response by SSG Paul's Page made Nov 14 at 2018 11:38 AM

2018-11-14T11:38:35-05:00

The award system anymore is a joke. I had guys under fire everyday dang near it and get an atom for being in country for a year. If you were an E7 or above with as little as a month in country and at the CG command base you get a BSM meritorious. Just do your job guys and Piss on the decorations. I would ask for unit coins for pcs awards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 2:02 PM

2018-11-14T14:02:54-05:00

Awards are not, by regulation, based off of any rank. Position, duties, mission, and accomplished tasks are what they are supposed to be based off of. A PFC can earn a BSM, so long as the recommendation is worded properly.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 2:18 PM

2018-11-14T14:18:26-05:00

After seeing the awards doled out over the past 17 years, I must agree their value has been diminished by the same 'everyone needs recognition' that has filled the participation trophy mentality.

Many units have a internal criteria designed to reduce excessive awards. The unfortunate result is if you aren't a senior NCO or a field grade officer, you won't be considered for an awards like the BSM, REGARDLESS of achievement.

I had to argue with my CO (BG) and XO on the merits of a 2LT for his award, and I barely succeeded. His work was easily 2 pay grades above his rank, his efforts were commended in multiple inspections/audits and noted to have saved the USG a ton of money.

No, he didn't kick down doors, or take out a cell or even get into a serious TIC. He did do the job he was directed, dug in and did a better job than any of his peers, and never shy'd away from travel between FOB's when required. Yes we had small arms fired at our vehicles fairly regularly, but nothing to stop the travel. I mention this for all who would question the award at all for a semi-fobbit-type job. As a former enlited 11B, I felt the same way at one time. However, Service should be recognized, and exceptional service needs to be differentiated from honorable service, and of course heroic service for those few among us. The latter is why some of these awards have a "V" device attached.

In my humble (Army) opinion, the USMC is a bit stingy on recognition, while the Army is a little excessive.

That said, appreciate your Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and yes, even Airmen! Everyone has a job to do, they are all essential to the door-kicker's support.

All service should be recognized and no award or recognition should be denigrated because you feel you got cheated. As another person here noted, it's really about the individual that takes the time to compete the award recommendation and their willingness to argue on behalf of the recipients.

Response by LCDR Tim McKenzie made Nov 14 at 2018 4:16 PM

2018-11-14T16:16:45-05:00

I got that when I retired in 08. I never really believed in the award system. My views would seem extreme to some. I propose only a few medals like we had 150 years ago. Medal of Honor. Combat related or non combat heroic/bravery (ex: Bronze Star) and Purple Heart. All other awards should be letters of commendation, appreciation, etc.

Response by PO1 Gary Hopson made Nov 14 at 2018 4:26 PM

2018-11-14T16:26:01-05:00

I believe the meritorious service metal should be given for MERITORIOUS SERVICE. Time in service or rank shouldn't be an issue. One services meritorious service may differ from another. My first submarine was put in four the presidential unit commendation, for a surveillance operation we conducted. The airdale in charge denied it with the reasoning that planes do that routinely. Just showed his own ignorance.

Response by SGT Floyd Shown made Nov 14 at 2018 4:39 PM

2018-11-14T16:39:39-05:00

I remember well spending 2 months at the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo working on some very important stuff. (Classified). The commanding general of the Defense Attache’ program recommended me for an MSM along with a letter of support from the U.S. Secret Service and Defense Intelligence Agency. Because all awards have to go through ones direct chain of command, it was all waiting for me to return to Ft Bragg.

Upon return to Bragg, I find out my company commander downgraded it to an Army Achievement medal. As if that wasn’t bad enough, another guy in the unit spent 1 day preparing to give a demo of a loud speaker system received an MSM. At this point I realized they are all ass kissing awards and don’t really mean anything. The only awards I respect any more are the bronze/silver stars and the Medal Of Honor.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Nov 14 at 2018 6:18 PM

2018-11-14T18:18:03-05:00

Maybe it’s time for a Meritorius Achievement ribbon. .. after 5 they can trade it in for a Meritorius service medal.

Response by Sgt Richard Sprague made Nov 14 at 2018 6:23 PM

2018-11-14T18:23:35-05:00

As long as the person who is receiving the MSM meets all the critirea there is no reason why one should not be awarded the MSM.

Criteria for the Meritorious Service Medal: Awarded to members of the Armed Forces of the United States who distinguished themselves by outstanding non-combat meritorious achievement or service to the United States subsequent to 16 January 1969. Normally, the acts or services rendered must be comparable to that required for the Legion of Merit but in a duty of lesser though considerable responsibility.

Criteria for the Legion of Merit Medal: The criteria are "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services and achievements" and is typically reserved for senior officers at O-6 level and above, typically in connection with senior leadership/command positions or other senior positions of significant responsibility.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 6:43 PM

2018-11-14T18:43:02-05:00

I spent 29 years in the Army Guard and I never saw anyone that young with this award. I received one as an LTC during my tenure as battalion commander. Don’t know about these folks but it seems a tad early in their career for such as award.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 7:19 PM

2018-11-14T19:19:18-05:00

The longevity of servoce has nothing to do with the conditions under which an individual performs their service. It is simply admirable or exeplary service.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Nov 14 at 2018 7:23 PM

2018-11-14T19:23:59-05:00

I agree with You, many medals are too easy to get. When I see first term troops that have mode medals than I received in over 20 years that tells Me a lot ! Many just seemniq to be automatic, they weren't before !

Response by SGT Maximo Sebastian made Nov 14 at 2018 8:20 PM

2018-11-14T20:20:27-05:00

AR 600 8 22
3–15. Meritorious Service Medal
a. The Meritorious Service Medal was established by Executive Order 11448, 16 January 1969 as amended by
Executive Order 12312, 2 July 1981, as amended by Executive Order 13286, 28 March 2003. It is awarded to any
member of the Armed Forces of the United States or to any member of the Armed Forces of a friendly foreign nation
who has distinguished himself or herself by outstanding meritorious achievement or service.
b. After 16 January 1969 but prior to 11 September 2001, the Meritorious Service Medal is authorized to be
awarded only for meritorious service or achievement while serving in a non-combat area.

Any soldier with any rank of any branch is entitle to this award.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 8:40 PM

2018-11-14T20:40:25-05:00

Hey Gunny, I believe that the MSM is a department of defence medal and there is no time in service requirements. If the Marines are choosing to make this a TIS medal then someone truly needs to read the regs. A medal issued foe TIS is the watered down version of the award. I'm not trying to argue or put down any service in any way. But word of mouth is the entire military's problem when it comes to awards and other actions. Find the regs, read them for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.

Response by MAJ William Bowlin made Nov 14 at 2018 10:23 PM

2018-11-14T22:23:54-05:00

In the late 80s I went to an Army major's office. He held a prior commission in the Corps. On his wall was a Certificate of Achievement for serving in the evacuation of the embassy in Saigon and the rescue of the crew of the Mayaguez. Had he been in any other branch he would have had a chest full of medals.

Response by TSgt David Brown made Nov 14 at 2018 10:56 PM

2018-11-14T22:56:03-05:00

The norm in the Air Force is the Achievement Medal, the Commendation Medal and THEN the MSM. Not knowing why he got it I really can’t say.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 12:01 AM

2018-11-15T00:01:23-05:00

If you saw an Airman wearing an MSM under the rank of E-7 they def did something to deserve it. Shit I got pushback for trying to write a commendation for one of my SrA (E-4) guys even though he was doing a MSgt (E-7) job.

Response by SFC Stanley Sayers made Nov 15 at 2018 2:44 AM

2018-11-15T02:44:30-05:00

I saw pretty much the same thing happen at the end of Desert Storm, however it was Bronze Stars being awarded. I was assigned to a medical battalion where most of the senior staff E-7’s and above received bronze stars. Our medical companies were all attached to other units in 18th Airborne Corp and we really had no command and control over those units. For the most part our Battalion Headquarters followed well behind the front line units. The only thing we really did was reconsolidate the Battalion once all ground actions ceased. Their was no reason for Bronze Stars to be awarded to any of the staff. Yet the Brigade we were assigned to was basically given Carte Blanche to request and receive those awards. Looking back except for the senior staff not one junior NCO or private received any awards for their efforts. Personally I didn’t receive one of those BSM’s. You could say I lost some decorum as I, a E-7 chewed out the Captain who was supposed to be keeping an eye on the terrain and air just in case there was a bad guy or two that our combat troops missed popped up. Instead he had his helmet off with a paperback book with his earbuds in listening to music while reading his book. Needless to say I got my point across, but I was one of those that didn’t receive an award. I would personally have refused it anyway. Too many past family members have served our country for me to take an award that didn’t have meaning behind it as it would have been insulting to those who went before me. Personal opinion those who received those BSM’s just got Butt Wipe Awards. Yes, I let my opinions be known to the Officers who wrote and accepted them. For me, I could have cared less as my retirement plans were already in place when the unit was deployed. I am much more happy with my 6 ARCOM’s and MSM than any Bronze Star that Med Battalion could have given me. I did not have a medical MOS and previously only served in High Speed Low Drag combat related units. So those awards I mentioned above mean more to me than what one of their bogus BSM’s would ever mean to them. I EARNED THEM ALL!

Response by Cpl Ed Hines made Nov 15 at 2018 4:16 AM

2018-11-15T04:16:24-05:00

What if I told you it is skill that matters and not medals?

Response by CMSAF Russ Kendall made Nov 15 at 2018 8:16 AM

2018-11-15T08:16:21-05:00

Disgraceful. The MSM was awarded at retirement or PCS after an outstanding career.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 8:45 AM

2018-11-15T08:45:41-05:00

It doesn't matter what rank someone is. If they've done the job to a higher standard to rate the award they should get it. Personally, I think the Marine Corps cares too much about rank when handing out awards. I've seen a Sgt get a NAM for doing less than a LCpl who got a CERTCOM on a MEU.

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Nov 15 at 2018 10:32 AM

2018-11-15T10:32:49-05:00

I recieved that reward .. after 30 some years !

Response by LtCol Dennis Ivan made Nov 15 at 2018 10:50 AM

2018-11-15T10:50:12-05:00

Rank based awards can be found in awards manuals at least as early as the 60s and the rational in those manuals has been applied informally and is generally appropriate.
MSM and higher awards were limited to higher ranks because they a. Are not combat awards, and b. Indicated the broad nature of the persons effect.

In short, the higher rank you are the bigger impact you have for the better or worse. A private that does well has limited effect compared to a SgtMaj that does well and the degree of responsibility and risk they assume is likewise comparable (for NON combat awards).

So. For an e5 or e6 to have received such an award i would expect to see a commensorately broad impact in their actions. I find that unlikey and more likely its an inflated award.

For those commenting on disparity between combat awards compared to noncombat awards, understand that most people i know would look at a NAM or NCOM with a V as a much more important and prestigious an award than a BS without a V. Everyone knows what a non valor award is and what it isnt. So its somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison, ie i respect the award of an e4 with a NAM w V way more than an O6 with a LOM. But i also know that O6 did a hell of alot in his 20+years that the E4 hasnt and his LOM level award is indicative of that.

So bottomline, its an inflated award to an e5 or e6 and cheapens the award and any future award they get. Bear in mind, whats next in that e5/e6s mind when they do something they personnally believe is more important and more difficult but get a lowet award by someone following the intent of the awards? And what about everyone else around them that may not agree it deserved such an overly high praise especially compared to others they have seen?
Inflating only creates more problems, it wrecks long term moral to give short term satisfaction. And its usually the product of a weak officer.

Response by MAJ J Scott made Nov 15 at 2018 11:16 AM

2018-11-15T11:16:18-05:00

At the end of my tour the Army CG made it known that he would only consider E-7s and above for MSMs. All 5 guys on my team were awarded - one O-5, two O-4s, one O-3 (me), and one E-7.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 12:41 PM

2018-11-15T12:41:25-05:00

I don’t think it is a branch thing, I think it is a gut check thing. I’ve seen a ton of awards that make you scratch your head when you see the wearer, but an MSM isn’t a “gimme.” Considering a GO has to sign off on it, most MSM recommendations never survive first contact with Battalion,

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 15 at 2018 1:00 PM

2018-11-15T13:00:09-05:00

I have two MSMs and three DMSMs. Of the five, three were the result of completing a tour of duty and going PCS. One was awarded upon closing of a unified command and transfer to a joint agency. In each case I was a field grade officer. One is for specific job performance--it is the most meaningful. In the Air Force the MSM was the standard "glad you're gone" award for field grade officers. Company Grade officers usually got the Air Force Commendation Medal. Each service has their award criteria and it's interpreted different ways by different commands. I wrote a bunch of MSMs and DMSMs for field grade officers who worked for me. They were generally well deserved.

Response by A1C Lexas Granger made Nov 15 at 2018 2:42 PM

2018-11-15T14:42:17-05:00

This decoration was established by Executive Order 11448 on Jan. 16, 1969. This award was established as the counterpart of the Bronze Star Medal for the recognition of meritorious noncombatant service.

Source: afpc.af.mil

Response by A1C Lexas Granger made Nov 15 at 2018 2:43 PM

2018-11-15T14:43:42-05:00

The Meritorious Service Medal may be awarded to any member of the armed forces of the United States who distinguishes themselves by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service to the United States.

Response by MSgt Pete Erkelenz made Nov 15 at 2018 3:20 PM

2018-11-15T15:20:28-05:00

It is presumptuous to assume that an E5 in the Air Force could not have risen up to the task and actually deserved MSM. I'm sure given the difference in culture and mission that it is understandable that a Marine would have to be at least an E7 to be taken seriously enough by his superiors to be put in for one. But than again, look at the number of CMOH's given out by Congress to Marines as opposed to AF enlisted since 1947. If you want to complain about making a medal lose its luster, calculate the number of Bronze Stars handed out for meritorious service in the last 20 years.

Response by Sgt Daniel Krenzke made Nov 15 at 2018 4:12 PM

2018-11-15T16:12:39-05:00

When I was in the Navy Achievement Medal (NAM) became known as the Normal Achievement Medal. Some people received the award for merely doing their job in a mediocre fashion while other did earn it. It depended on who you knew as to whether or not you got the mexal.

Response by SGM James Westover made Nov 15 at 2018 4:38 PM

2018-11-15T16:38:56-05:00

Almost never see below the grade of E-7 because the award is based on level of responsibility. Rarely do you see SSG E-6 with an MSM. I know sometimes lower enlisted complains but the level of responsibility must be commensurate with the award, yes sometimes 1 slips by but it is rare as an MSM requires the first GO or Flag Officer in the CoC for approval.

Response by Cpl Dave Ryan made Nov 15 at 2018 5:48 PM

2018-11-15T17:48:41-05:00

Perhaps it was awarded due to performance while deployed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 5:53 PM

2018-11-15T17:53:25-05:00

Awards should be given based on merit.. not rank or time in service

Response by 1SG Jefferson Paul made Nov 15 at 2018 8:25 PM

2018-11-15T20:25:17-05:00

Agreed, I recieved 2 during my 25 years in the army. Both were earned as a 1SG.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Nov 15 at 2018 8:52 PM

2018-11-15T20:52:04-05:00

Medals are nice bling on our class A’s and it is great to. Be recognized and appreciated for your efforts and dedication but often they get awarded because you were noticed by the right person not everyone who has done brave and extraordinary acts are noticed and rewarded. A warrior does these things because it is who he is and what his sense of duty demands of him. Be happy for the warrior who got an award but the true hero doesn’t do it for the bling

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 9:00 PM

2018-11-15T21:00:56-05:00

Depends what they did to earn it. Medals have nothing to do with “how many breaths you’ve taken”.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 9:07 PM

2018-11-15T21:07:35-05:00

During JTF-160 in Gitmo during Haitian and Cuban migrant crisis, I went in the water after 4 drowning migrants, and 3 great Americans followed me, jus happened to be E-3 to E-5 in USMC, USA, and USAF. I carefully researched awards manual, and determined they all merited individual Commendation medals. The Army amd Air Force wanted to upgrade, the USMC Chain of command wanted to know why I was writing a Cpl up for NC. I showed them the refs and they approved it. Difference in intrusive leadership I guess.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 10:27 PM

2018-11-15T22:27:59-05:00

Since when did time in service dictate how deserving you are of an award? Maybe I have a different definition of merit, but if you earn it then you earn it. Based on merit.

Response by 1SG Leo Leal made Nov 15 at 2018 11:58 PM

2018-11-15T23:58:20-05:00

Took me 26 years and a retirement as a 1SG ti get one

Response by SPC Kyle Williams made Nov 16 at 2018 9:15 AM

2018-11-16T09:15:10-05:00

My unit tried to fuck me. They wanted to give me the lowest award possible. U dont even get a medal, just a certificate for my deployment. Everyone else e4 and below were getting arcoms. I did everything that the others did. They tried to give me a lower award only cuz they were in iraq 3 months longer than i was. It was bullshit. And after i plead my case to my platoon sergeant he agreed and he saw to it that i got an arcom.

Point is awards are based on your actions your valour and courage, bravery. Not Time in Service and not your rank. So buy what yer saying we should strip all dead or alive medal of honor recipients because of thier time in service wasnt to your liking or thier rank. And lastly it you never said if u actually served. If you didnt then i would shut my mouth and move along as its none of your business.

Response by SSG Eugene Sukert made Nov 16 at 2018 9:17 AM

2018-11-16T09:17:14-05:00

To require a rank devalues the award. It is an award and should be based on merit. I am a retired Army E6 who decided to retire despite being #3 on the list for E7. I had previously received 3 MSM’s, but was only awarded an ARCOM for my retirement because I was an “E6”. Awards are supposed to be based on merit and achievement not rank. I was told that my retirement award was an ARCOM because a retiring SGM was only getting an MSM and not Legion of Merit.

Response by PO1 Andrew Jillard made Nov 16 at 2018 9:17 AM

2018-11-16T09:17:30-05:00

I spent 20 years in the Navy and along the way earned a Navy Commendation Medal as an E-6. My Master Chief had to fight to get it for me because a number of seniors had a belief that "only khakis deserved the NCM or higher." Of course, the award criteria mention nothing of the sort. In my opinion, if the servicemembers service meets the criteria of the award as written in the manual, they deserve the award, regardless of rank or years of service.

Response by MSgt Wes Tracy made Nov 16 at 2018 12:44 PM

2018-11-16T12:44:34-05:00

Yes, I think many awards are watered down in meaning by being tied to rank or TIS. One that has concerned me for a while though is the Medal of Honor. I have so much respect for any MOH recipient. But the Medal of Honor should be for someone who knowingly and willingly, of their own free will, risk or forfeit their life to help others or the mission. Occasionally, we see a MOH being awarded for thinly veiled political purposes. Often, the submissions don't come through the normal process; the President says to his lackeys "Go find me someone to give a Medal of Honor to". (They work great for drawing attention away from stealing, cheating, lying, betraying your country, etc.) Recently, a soldier inadvertently left behind was all by himself against a large enemy force. He fought bravely for many hours and, thus, single-handedly took on a large enemy force, to eventually die from his injuries. This man was a true hero in my book and I have nothing but respect for him. I'm sorry, though, but he was not, in my mind, eligible for the Medal of Honor. He was fighting for his life. He didn't willingly get left behind. I may get a lot of flame, but I hope you can see the distinction I'm trying to make. Definitely a hero, but only a very special category of heroes qualify for the Medal of Honor.

Response by MSgt Steve Bedsole made Nov 16 at 2018 3:14 PM

2018-11-16T15:14:33-05:00

I have been retired for 24 years but I know from personal experience that, even though it’s not specifically documented, there was an unwritten rule that the MSM was for field grade officers and Senior NCO’s. I had an E-6 retiring at a command level assignment and submitted the citation for an MSM. In no certain terms, I was called into the commander’s office and told that the proper retirement award was the commendation medal. It doesn’t surprise me that the requirements are being watered down. I see constantly where DFC’s seem to be handed out like hot cakes.

Response by MAJ Victor Alarcon made Nov 16 at 2018 7:02 PM

2018-11-16T19:02:21-05:00

Are you the ribbon monitor,,,do you know what those men did to earn the MSM? Just cause you are in the Marines does not give you authority to question another man’s service. I earned mine as an
E-3 when I was assigned to Fort Chaffee during the Cuban refugee crises.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2018 8:01 PM

2018-11-16T20:01:29-05:00

The entire award system has been watered down and abused since Desert Shield/Desert Storm.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Nov 16 at 2018 8:30 PM

2018-11-16T20:30:39-05:00

Servicemen that bitch about who has medals and who doesn't have a problem. The reason some people get them and others don't is a matter ignorance. You just can't look at a person and determine why he/she has a MSM. It takes a general officer to approve a medal recommendation. I got mine an an impact award that was mission related. I also got 2 higher awards for other missions. I was assigned to a Tier 1 unit. People that want lots of ribons should have joined the Air Force. Life is not fair and some of the times that applies to medals. All depends on where you serve, what you did and who commands you.

Response by SCPO Charles Steinbrook made Nov 16 at 2018 9:15 PM

2018-11-16T21:15:44-05:00

In my 26 years of active duty I never received one. I guess it all depends on how the award was written up. I have noticed that there is a big difference in awards given for each service.

Response by SrA James Cannon made Nov 16 at 2018 9:33 PM

2018-11-16T21:33:58-05:00

While the Marines may have a policy of only awarding an MSM to those with 12 years of service or more, the Army and Air Force don’t. They base the award on actual meritorious service, not simply time in service. Additionally, how do you know that the E-5 didn’t have 12 years time in service. The Air Force has typically been the hardest of the branches to make grade in. That guy may have 12 years or more in service.

Response by SSG Ronald Colwell made Nov 16 at 2018 10:00 PM

2018-11-16T22:00:48-05:00

How about an ARMY E-6, who shoplifted at the PX, and nothing happens and six months later received MSM for PCS award. Seriously SMH!!!

Response by SGT William Freitas made Nov 17 at 2018 4:03 AM

2018-11-17T04:03:43-05:00

I can’t comment on today’s military but I did receive my first of two Soldier’s Medal before making E-3. Rank and TIS are irrelevant to ability and accomplishments.
We’ve all witnessed some getting awards who weren’t deserving but you shouldn’t assume those of lower rank automatically don’t.

Response by Sgt Gerald Tate made Nov 17 at 2018 9:02 AM

2018-11-17T09:02:55-05:00

Army, Airforce. Navy are like Oprah. You get an award you get an award everybody gets an award

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2018 9:41 AM

2018-11-17T09:41:59-05:00

I agree. I can’t comment on the Marines, Navy or Air Force but the Army has just destroyed the awards process. Soldiers receive the MSM for changing duty stations. Down range is worse. I know for a fact that Purple Hearts have been given out that we’re not earned. Soldier falls out of chair when VBIED goes off outside compound and gets a PH. Yes that happened. It’s just a slap in the face to others who wear that award. I could go on for hours but the bottom line is you are correct the Army has water down awards to the point where they really don’t mean anything.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2018 9:57 AM

2018-11-17T09:57:00-05:00

All of the awards are being watered down. If you get an award for simply doing your job, then it is a participation award. It takes away from the worth of the awards for those who actually do something outstanding.

Response by SSgt ALex McDade made Nov 17 at 2018 3:00 PM

2018-11-17T15:00:03-05:00

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Semper Fi. I was a SSgt 87-96

Response by Sgt Paul Baughman made Nov 17 at 2018 3:31 PM

2018-11-17T15:31:44-05:00

How about we stop tying awards to rank/TIS and instead tie it to actions. I you’re so petty to think troops in a junior rank don’t deserve an award that you don’t have because you’ve been in longer, please re-evaluate what it means to be a leader.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2018 3:57 PM

2018-11-17T15:57:38-05:00

Well past 20 years before I was ever awarded one!

Response by PO2 Geoffrey LeNoir made Nov 17 at 2018 7:25 PM

2018-11-17T19:25:24-05:00

The lack of standardization across the services is very demotivational. Look at the requirements for a CAR compared to a CIB. Army handling out ARCOMs for end of tour awards and Navy/Marines hand out a handshake. It's really disparate.

Response by PO1 William Bargar made Nov 17 at 2018 8:26 PM

2018-11-17T20:26:32-05:00

I see a lot of differences in medals awarded between all the branches! Can all branches just have ONE STANDARD INSTRUCTION for all awards! Why should some receive awards over others? What's the difference between an say, an E-6 in the Air Force and an E-6 in the Marine Corps? None, they get paid the same! They must be treated the same! Enough said!

Response by SSgt Max Gonzales made Nov 17 at 2018 11:35 PM

2018-11-17T23:35:12-05:00

It's useless to complain,not knowing the circumstances.

Response by MSgt Shane Conley made Nov 18 at 2018 12:04 AM

2018-11-18T00:04:09-05:00

What does how long someone has been in have to do with with receiving a medal. If they met the criteria then they earned it regardless of rank or time in service.

Response by SGT David Nicholas made Nov 18 at 2018 12:13 AM

2018-11-18T00:13:27-05:00

Well it is the Air Force lol

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2018 1:19 AM

2018-11-18T01:19:08-05:00

I don’t think time is service is the determinant of what is worthy of an award as much as the acts that garner the recommendation.

Response by Capt Andrew Hairston made Nov 18 at 2018 8:00 AM

2018-11-18T08:00:21-05:00

Gunny, I agree with some of the comments, it's the people pushing these awards more so than the branch itself. Even within the Marine Corps we have our own flaws; a buddy of mine is currently being forced to write up an Navy Com for a retiring MSgt that most would argue deserves an LOA and a high five, yet my LCpl who busted his butt in his own initiative for 3 weeks in the field got his NAM I wrote up reduced down to Meritorious Mast. I don't want to start pointing fingers at another branch saying they're just handing them out (I don't know what they did to receive MSMs), especially if we have flaws within our own branch's award mentality (not system).

Response by MAJ Lee Goehl made Nov 18 at 2018 8:40 AM

2018-11-18T08:40:02-05:00

yes, when i got mine it was a big deal biw its like the AAM everyone seems to have one.

Response by PO2 Travis Oehmen made Nov 18 at 2018 9:01 AM

2018-11-18T09:01:06-05:00

The Army and Air Force hand out ribbons like candy on Halloween. My brother and girlfriend were both AF, both E-5, and they both had enough chest candy to make a salty ol' Master Chief shake his head in disbelief. I am not saying that some werr not truly earned, but most awards have entered the realm of participation trophies. I have my Seabee Combat Warfare pin, which took a hell of a long time to earn, so they can keep all their "shinies".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2018 9:18 AM

2018-11-18T09:18:21-05:00

The officers usually give them to each other for doing nothing more then signing their signatures during deployment... non combat related deployments at that ... another pointless medal

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2018 9:52 AM

2018-11-18T09:52:55-05:00

Sometimes it comes with the unit. Check with others from the same company. I know I felt weird with it not to mention the French fourragere. But, they were part of the company package. Expected for all formal uniforms.

Response by SPC Richard Dawson made Nov 18 at 2018 11:07 AM

2018-11-18T11:07:54-05:00

The running joke around the 82nd back in the 90s was that you put soldiers in for a higher award than you wanted, because if you put them in for an AAM it would be downgraded to an Article 15...

Response by SFC Aldo Garcia made Nov 18 at 2018 11:31 AM

2018-11-18T11:31:15-05:00

I seen an Army National Guard Specilist (E4) bake a cake for the Battalion Commanders (O5) Birthday out in the field and receive the MSM.

Response by CPL Derone Brown Jr made Nov 18 at 2018 1:18 PM

2018-11-18T13:18:08-05:00

Who cares? I mean every service branch has their regulations as to when ,where and how their service members wear their awards on said uniform.NEXT!

Response by SGT Mark Estes made Nov 18 at 2018 1:28 PM

2018-11-18T13:28:24-05:00

I could be wrong but I heard that they started awarding these rather than Bronze Star medals because the BSM was getting watered down as far as the meritorious Bronze Star goes. The BSM/V was still awarded for Valor but the BSM for meritorious service was getting out of hand.

Response by PFC Jason Rodrigues made Nov 18 at 2018 1:36 PM

2018-11-18T13:36:20-05:00

There have been many cases were Privates have earned a Congressional Medal of Honor for extreme acts of bravery and there have been PLENTY of officers that have received a Combat Infantryman's Badge without ever having fired a shot, taken fire or even left the relatively safe walls of the base they are assigned to. Bottom line...some medals are earned legitimately and some are given just because.

Response by PO2 Christopher Hamilton made Nov 18 at 2018 4:09 PM

2018-11-18T16:09:01-05:00

And I remember during my time being denied a Navy COM that was deserved by an asshole chief that didn’t believe anyone E-7 and below deserved one regardless of situation.

Response by PFC John McKenzie made Nov 18 at 2018 4:22 PM

2018-11-18T16:22:20-05:00

What is the Meritorious Service Medal??? Why is it awarded ???

Response by MSgt Chandos Clapper made Nov 18 at 2018 5:15 PM

2018-11-18T17:15:03-05:00

I have two MSMs, one awarded at 18 years and one when I retired at 22 years. USAF MSgt. (E-7).

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Nov 18 at 2018 5:57 PM

2018-11-18T17:57:15-05:00

I got the MSM as an E5 for my role during a deployment. Ray Odierno approved it, and he had a very good reason too.

Response by SSG Michael Medeiros made Nov 18 at 2018 7:35 PM

2018-11-18T19:35:56-05:00

It’s all based on the command. I was in Iraq and watched officer after officer receiving the BSM. I ran 2 to 3 missions a day with 3 vehicles and we were hit 3 times with IED’s. I put all my team members in for the MSM and only 1 was approved. I found out later that the high command approved all officers for a BSM and I was the only E-6 to receive one. Everyone else was given an ARCOM.

Response by PO1 Joseph Hughes made Nov 18 at 2018 8:28 PM

2018-11-18T20:28:11-05:00

Before I retired, in the Navy normally the only time you saw any enlisted with one they were E-7 and above and were getting it at around 18 yrs or retirement.

Response by SCPO Rick Hunter made Nov 18 at 2018 8:43 PM

2018-11-18T20:43:05-05:00

If your only goal in life is to get more medals and awards than Audie Murphy, I don't want to be within a hundred miles of your dumb ass. Cuz you're going to get yourself or your team members killed.

Response by CPT Don Kemp made Nov 18 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-11-18T22:47:54-05:00

I was awarded the MSM as an E-6 with 5 years of service. The rationale was selection as Drill Sergeant of the Cycle twice within 18 months and an additional Company Drill Sergeant of the Cycle. But truth be told, the real reason I got the award was a good friend was the former BN Clerk and knew how to write the award.
Historically, some deserving don’t get the award and some undeserving do get it. Life’s not fair. Deal with it.

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Nov 18 at 2018 11:12 PM

2018-11-18T23:12:07-05:00

Who cares?

Response by SCPO Rick Hunter made Nov 19 at 2018 12:50 AM

2018-11-19T00:50:16-05:00

Gunny SEMPER FI! No that wasn't necessarily the direction I thought your question was going in. Similar to you, I did 22 years active duty and never once saw anyone below E6 with an MSM. My last Command, CSSG-1, 1st FSSG, put me in for, and I was awarded the MSM as an E8. I was very much surprised as a) I did not know I was being put in for it and, mostly b) I didn't know they were awarded to anyone below Colonel.

I myself became a bit disillusioned with awards, specifically the Navy/Marine Corps Achievement Medal, as I felt it was being given out too often and way to often to Sailors for just doing their job. The Marines seemed to always have a higher standard. At the time I was in, I don't believe I ever saw a non-SNCO Marine with a NAM. I was especially leary of Sailors who had multiple awards of the NAM. To my way of thinking, it was, or should have been, a once in a career type award. Clearly not the level of a MoH, but still not given like pogey bait.

Anyway Gunny, I hope this clears the air and more answers your direct question. If not, yes, there should be some standardisation, however, awarding someone's merit is always subjective. Personally I wouldn't have given me an MSM. I feel I did my job to the best of my ability which was all the recognition I need. Obviously, my BN CO thought otherwise.

Response by SGT Mike Rocha made Nov 19 at 2018 7:13 AM

2018-11-19T07:13:52-05:00

Why does it matter ? The awards system isn’t one size fits all. A Marine not seeing value in another servicemember’s being awarded an MSM seems counter to the Marine Corps ethos. Why do you feel that you have to question a decision made by people who outrank you, from another service ? If the Marine Corps has a higher standard for awards, that’s their choice. To infer that younger members shouldn’t be awarded an MSM makes me think that the Marines don’t value their own young men and women. If that’s true, then something needs to change in that branch of service.

Response by SMSgt Dean Pursell made Nov 19 at 2018 7:31 AM

2018-11-19T07:31:45-05:00

There use to be in the Air Force as well, But take a look at the bronze star awards, they were handing them out like candy to CMSgts Just because they were in the AOR when I was over there. Point being some where along the line the unwritten standards for awards and decarations especially MSMs and Bronze stars were forgotten or ignored.

Response by LTC John Bush made Nov 23 at 2018 9:24 AM

2018-11-23T09:24:13-05:00

Awards should be made based on performance and rank should not be a factor. However in practice unfortunately that is not always the case and criteria varies not only by service but by command. I really do not see any actual possibility of achieving any sort of standardization in the real word.

Response by PO1 Gery Bastiani made Nov 23 at 2018 1:04 PM

2018-11-23T13:04:15-05:00

myself and 3 other Seabees received the Navy Commendation and two received Purple Hearts for surviving the bombing of the bombing of the American Embassy in Beirut in 1984. After recovering from the blast we helped in recovering the wounded then recovered the decease.

Response by SSG Aaron Gough made Nov 28 at 2018 7:09 AM

2018-11-28T07:09:21-05:00

I recently returned from Iraq and when the awards were being given before we left country I was just mind blown. Only 2 enlisted people received MSM's because they fully earned them. There were probably about 9 to 11 officers who received MSM's. A few fully earned them but others got them because their friends put them in for the award.

I'm in the National Guard so the people in my unit have known each other for many years. The ones that are full time know each other very well. So when I saw them giving each other MSM's, except for the O6 and the O5's who got bronze stars, it just threw me off at how easily this award can be thrown around. I even saw a female Major cry because she didn't get a MSM. She literally did nothing but was put in the S3 and she wasn't even the acting officer. There was already a Major who was earning his award.

So as you can see with this very small example, the award is only as good as your friends. The best award any of us can earn is a dd214 unscathed.

Response by Lt Col Walter Green made Nov 29 at 2018 12:22 AM

2018-11-29T00:22:25-05:00

I can't speak to the Army Staff Sergeant, but in general, in my AF service experience, decorations were awarded with three components: (1) the level of responsibility involved - for example my retirement DMSM was for service as a Deputy Director in the Joint Strategic Defense Planning Staff, an O-6 slot I filled as an O-5 in a JStaff office at US Space Command - my previous MSMs were for positions such as Director of Training in an Air Force School, Squadron command, etc. (2) the quality of the job done - when I was a Squadron Commander an end of tour award to a 1st Lt Combat Crew Commander who had led an outstanding crew was a Commendation Medal, a meets standards + a bit award for the same job was an Achievement Medal. (3) whether the award was appropriate given previous awards held. A MSM as a first award would require a really substantial achievement, a MSM for someone who already had a couple of Commendation Medals and an Achievement Medal and who was in progressively more responsible jobs would be less of a stretch. My experience is dated, but I would expect an Air Force E-5 with a MSM to have an otherwise impressive ribbon rack. Of course, he or she might have been a Captain passed over for Major who was serving out the rest of a career as an enlisted man. I would add a comment on level of responsibility. Level of responsibility means that you are responsible for more stuff, tougher stuff, with greater performance demanded. A higher level of responsibility means that if you are doing your job your are making a greater contribution to the outcome. As a sector battle commander in Alaska I sat in the operations room with responsibility for the performance of seven radar sites as an integrated defense. The senior director sitting two seats down was only responsible for defending the area assigned to our radar site. The 2nd Lt controller on the top deck of the dias was responsible for vectoring 2 fighters to engage an enemy bomber. Each of our jobs were difficult if we had to go to war. Each required perfect performance or we all would die (assuming the incoming bombers were nuclear armed). But the senior director had to make sure the controller did his or her job, and I had to make sure all of the sites were fighting the best battle possible. Level of responsibility is a very real thing, and has always been a component of award programs. That said, I was happy to get through a career where the battles were practice and without ever having to fight to defend North America from Soviet attack.

Response by SFC William Jones made Dec 24 at 2018 4:32 PM

2018-12-24T16:32:31-05:00

I earned an ARCOM for a deployment with the Rakkasans and a couple of years laters I earned one for going to annual training. I earned my first and only MSM when I retired. Go figure.

Response by SFC Kervin Stewart made Jan 7 at 2019 12:09 AM

2019-01-07T00:09:50-05:00

As a retiree, I can tell u out here in the civilian world it doesn’t even matter. I have 3 MSM’s and am thankful for them, as they are a reflection of my service. Even though it may seem out of the ordinary, they may have been worthy of their awards.

Response by SFC Don Lawrence made Jan 8 at 2019 9:12 PM

2019-01-08T21:12:53-05:00

Awards are based on impact not rank or time in service. The regulation even states that. Course it would be difficult for an E2 to do something that would merit an MSM but it is possible.

Response by MSgt Tony Marlin made Jun 28 at 2019 11:23 AM

2019-06-28T11:23:15-04:00

Rank has nothing to do with this award - it's based on merit not rank. What did the person do to get it is the bottom line....

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2019 11:29 AM

2019-06-28T11:29:40-04:00

Not my monkey, not my circus

Response by 1SG Ronald Rieck made Jun 28 at 2019 11:54 AM

2019-06-28T11:54:28-04:00

I watched two E-4's in Afghanistan get the DMSM. Both were on the CG's staff (LTG Eikenberry), one was his IT aid, and the other was administration. They also both received JCOM's as an impact award mid-tour. Never left the HQ area.

Response by Col Gonzalo Arturo Gutierrez Orozco made Jun 28 at 2019 12:39 PM

2019-06-28T12:39:21-04:00

The is robery on insignias and medals!!!!no juist tribut,Award onn NAVY,ARMY,AIR FORCE.The Honor is for,Hero no for!!! A Tak er O, I finde or stealing!!!!!Good bay.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2019 10:20 PM

2019-06-28T22:20:29-04:00

Are you sure it was an MSM and not a DMSM for meritorious service while deployed?

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Jun 29 at 2019 8:24 AM

2019-06-29T08:24:11-04:00

Ever wonder why awards go up with rank but accountability under the UCMJ goes down?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2019 9:38 AM

2019-06-29T09:38:35-04:00

Giving the USAF perspective - rule of thumb is MSMs go to E7/Master Sergeants and up, and O4/Majors and up. That said - if someone junior is doing the work, they should be considered. I got my first MSM as an O3/Captain because I served in an O5/Lt Col position for part of my tour (my O5 boss have been relieved for cause). In the same vein, just because someone has the rank does not mean they should get the higher award - especially if they served in a position not commensurate with their rank. But I will say that my opinion on this issue is not universal among my peers.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jun 29 at 2019 11:52 AM

2019-06-29T11:52:12-04:00

So glad to see people are getting their award where it isn't based on rank. We all know that being downrange, just about every E-7 & above got a Bronze Star for just being there. Many lower enlisted people do awesome things & get the the awards they rightfully earned. My one unit, we had an E-4 & an E-5 both get a Legion of Merit for the great work they did. Their jobs put them in the position to do that over someone with greater rank. Overall, it is wrong to give awards based solely on rank.

Response by SGT Bryan Hempel made Jul 1 at 2019 6:43 PM

2019-07-01T18:43:08-04:00

I would’ve asked them what they got it for. I was, as a Specialist put in for an MSM. I was put in for saving an off duty police officers life who crashed into the back of a car well I was stationed in AZ. It was downgraded to an ARCOM because as the reviewers remarks stated E-4s don’t earn MSMs. So in my opinion it’s very subjective to reviewing authority. For me, it was enough to safe this officers life. Didn’t need any other praise or ribbon.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Jul 21 at 2019 10:38 AM

2019-07-21T10:38:58-04:00

I was recommended for a MSM for a very specific action which helped enable the 3 CH53D squadrons located in HI deploy to Afghanistan. This eased the rotation burden for other units throughout the Marine Corps tremendously. It was also my swansong just before retiring.
My CO at the time simply remarked E7 = NCM. Yes, he was one of those guys.

Response by Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr made Sep 13 at 2019 6:20 PM

2019-09-13T18:20:18-04:00

And Promotions as well...

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Sep 14 at 2019 10:35 AM

2019-09-14T10:35:10-04:00

I know this is an older conversation, but it is popping in my feed as still active, so here goes.....

The guidance I was always given when writing/recommending awards is that you have to prove to the awarding authority that the actions you are recommending significantly and positively impacted the approving authority's formation.

If the approving authority is a BN CDR (O5 - AAM), you show that the Soldier had a significant and positive impact on the Battalion's mission. An MSM is approved by the Division Commander, so the four that I ever wrote up (all approved) were written to demonstrate that the SSG and the SFCs (1xE6 and 3xE7) had each and every one provided contributions to that Division as a whole. Without the contributions of those 4 individuals (different awards at different times), at least one of the Division Commander's missions would have failed, or at least been severely negatively impacted.

At the end of the day, Commanders approve awards. If you can demonatrate to the Commander, through your writing, that this individual is worthy of that Commander's notice, then that Commander will approve the award.

Response by MAJ Geiter Dunn made Jan 26 at 2020 12:38 PM

2020-01-26T12:38:00-05:00

In the Army (years ago) a successful company command could earn an MSM. However with the wars going on, if an E2 earned an MSM, then he/she darn well better get it.
In the Air Force, I believe the standard for an MSM is 5+ days in a barracks w/o carpeting and a Keurig.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2020 12:46 PM

2020-01-26T12:46:08-05:00

MSMs (and all decorations for that matter) are awarded for accomplishments/roles or responsibilities, not based on TIS.

Response by SFC Timothy Ross made Jan 26 at 2020 1:03 PM

2020-01-26T13:03:01-05:00

I didn't receive one until I was retiring.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jan 26 at 2020 1:22 PM

2020-01-26T13:22:52-05:00

While in the SIGINT community, I saw an E-4 & an E-5 get a Legion of Merit. That is higher than the MSM. They did highly important, real world intel work that had great implications. Awards were never supposed to awarded by rank. That has become a massive problem with military politics interfering with deserving people getting the right awards & giving the higher awards based on rank, location, & merely drawing breath.

Response by SSgt William Norvell made Jan 26 at 2020 1:31 PM

2020-01-26T13:31:16-05:00

I retired Air Force with 28 years did not get a damn thing
and I did not want anything

Response by SSgt William Norvell made Jan 26 at 2020 1:32 PM

2020-01-26T13:32:04-05:00

Retired Air Force they did not give me anything would not want them to break their arm or anything

Response by SFC Bill Kurtz made Jan 26 at 2020 2:35 PM

2020-01-26T14:35:41-05:00

Before judging the SMS on rank, remember troops like Alvin York and Audie Murphy. The deeds, not the rank, determines the award (or should)

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2020 9:43 PM

2020-02-01T21:43:45-05:00

Mine cost me 20 years, with easily half of it deployed or separated from family. Not complaining because many did far more and got far less. Got mine in the mail.

Response by SSG Jason Penn made May 25 at 2020 3:15 PM

2020-05-25T15:15:36-04:00

Unless you personally know their service history, I don't think you have anything to complain about. I personally feel that we have gone away from what the awards are meant for. An award should always be given based on the merit of the individual's actions, not on what rank is sewn on their arm!

Response by CWO5 Ray Lee made May 25 at 2020 11:43 PM

2020-05-25T23:43:52-04:00

You are correct, Gunny. Years ago I came across and Army Sgt with a MC good conduct wearing a MSM which is very uncommon in the Marines E6 and below. But then in Vietnam it was pretty much SOP in the army to get a Bronze Star end of tour award for E5 and up. E4 gets a Army Comm. Even though it was not restricted by any rank, Marines takes on a higher ground. Usually awarded to E8 and E9 upon retirement or PCS. Occasional Gunnys serving in critical billets whose superior performance while working in upper echelon billets are among those receiving the MSM. For officers, usually for senior staff officers with critical billets upon completion of tour of duty.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made May 27 at 2020 3:16 PM

2020-05-27T15:16:06-04:00

This just the type of mentality that has to change. Awards are not tied to rank or time in service (good conduct medal is the only exception for time). I have seen many soldiers who were deserving of a higher award, and yet they received a lower award because of their rank. The regulation make no such criteria as part of the requirement for the award.

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Oct 24 at 2020 12:56 PM

2020-10-24T12:56:29-04:00

I returned from Viet Nam as a Marine with 3 ribbons. I switched to the Army after college. From my experience, there is a great deal of difference between services regarding awards. All awards, especially non-combat "attaboys", are especially subjective. Award inflation began as Viet Nam wound on. Now there are ribbons/awards/badges for nearly everything.

Response by Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr made Mar 11 at 2021 10:39 PM

2021-03-11T22:39:18-05:00

The CROPS does not just give anything away!

Response by TSgt Tony Cooper made Feb 26 at 2022 11:47 PM

2022-02-26T23:47:35-05:00

I was awarded my MSM at the pay grade of E-3 Air Force in 1979. I pinned it on finally as a E-4 Sr Airman however.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2022 7:06 PM

2022-05-20T19:06:28-04:00

While I appreciate the comments on this thread, the award, much like all others look at the recipients overall impact on the mission and success, even individual achievement. As a young captain and even prior to my first MSM, I made sure that a SSG in my unit received his due to his impact on not only our mission success but that of our higher command’s. I read a comment about a TOC jockey receiving a BSM, which isn’t incredibly rare, but I would ask how this Soldiers impact effected the battle space.

Response by SPC Joe Lane made May 20 at 2022 8:40 PM

2022-05-20T20:40:46-04:00

We were literally told, by a LTC, that no one below an E6 could possibly do anything to earn a bronze star because anything we did we were ordered to do.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made May 21 at 2022 3:34 AM

2022-05-21T03:34:04-04:00

What did they receive the medals for? There is no rank requirement for the award. Should we require personnel to carry a copy of the DA638 in their pocket so you can read and decide if the medal should be revoked because it failed to meet your high standards? While I can agree that awards are often times awarded for things we do not feel were deserving of the award, there are times when we just do not know the details behind it. In this case, someone did and they received the medal. Maybe they earned it. It is not my place to decide that. I wrote a BSM for a SGT in Iraq and it was approved/awarded for what he did, not his rank.