Posted on Dec 12, 2016
Is the F-35 toast now, as far as a multi-branch airframe? PEOTUS thinks it should be. What say you?
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Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 15
I think he's gaining leverage, and leverage is what has been sorely needed by the DoD acquisition community with the defense industry for some time now. I cannot recollect the last time DoD acquisition lawyers and contracting officers grabbed a nut and Terminated For Cause. It is simply not done anymore. Every Congressman with jobs in his district will ALWAYS fight for a failed and over-cost program, rather than what is best for the DoD and the nation. LM stock lost $3.5B (and counting) in stock value today. Does he have their attention? Is he (and DoD acquisition) in a better negotiating position as a result of this simple demonstration of what a president-elect tweet can do? Yes, and in order to get major defense contractors cost under control, this is a sneaky and effective tactic.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I have long been against this bird. It isn't better than the F-22. It appears to nebe an ideal platform for carriers, and the Marines seem to like it. Knock down the coat and focus on what the Marines want out of it.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSgt (Join to see) - I agree, should planes share parts when possible to save on sustainment costs? yes. Should they be building flying Swiss Army Knives? no.
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Maj (Join to see)
SSgt (Join to see) There certainly are issues with the F-35 just to understate it, but to be fair the F-22 and F-35 are different platforms with different missions. The F-22 is an air supremacy fighter, meant to replace the F-15C, while the F-35 is really an air to ground attack plane, replacing the F-16 and the F-15E. You can't compare them at all. If you said the F-22 has super cruise and longer range air to air engagement and the F-35 does not, that's because the F-22 was designed for air to air engagements and the F-35 was not.
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Col Joseph Lenertz
Capt Brent Moll - I'm not so sure unmanned but otherwise equivalent strike aircraft or bombers would be at a far lower cost. While the reaper is only $15M, it's speed/range/payload is far inferior to an F-15/16/35. And while a Global Hawk is $131M unit price ($223M including R&D), it would cost more if weaponized, and more yet to be fast and maneuverable, and even more to be stealthy. Most of the cost of an aircraft is built in to it's range/payload/speed/manueverability/stealth and sensors & weapons suites. You can easily match or exceed the touted $85M unit costs of the F-35, without a human on board, but still paying the $35K annual bonus to RPV operators at Creech.
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This belongs to a much larger discussion of an acquisition law overhaul. The F-35 was conceived as a result of limitations to acquisition law and defense planning, programming, budgeting, and execution. Yes, the F-35 acquisition should be terminated as a multi service platform. As long as their are three services' budgets (Departments of the Army, Navy, and Air Force), there should not be a requirement to combine, convolve, and confuse disparate requirements on multi billion dollar programs. Multi billion dollar acquisitions turn into political fights over cash cows in Congressional districts. Smaller programs such as the Joint Direct Attack Munition at $100M/FY97 are a good model of a good multi service weapons system.
Each of the services should continue to procure the F-35 on the existing contracts, but should be authorized to cut back on orders so the services can reprogram funding in the out years for new aircraft. Once Mr. Trump realizes the bureaucracy involved in all of this, he should be a driving force in the overall picture--true defense acquisition reform. The end result for the OP and some follow-on comments would be realized, e.g. termination of F-35 acquisition, restructuring procurement, service life extension of A-10/ F-16/ F/A-18/ etc, planning/ programming/budgeting of new aircraft. In the bigger picture, Mr Trump would bring new perspective as a driving force in overhauling defense acquisitions.
Each of the services should continue to procure the F-35 on the existing contracts, but should be authorized to cut back on orders so the services can reprogram funding in the out years for new aircraft. Once Mr. Trump realizes the bureaucracy involved in all of this, he should be a driving force in the overall picture--true defense acquisition reform. The end result for the OP and some follow-on comments would be realized, e.g. termination of F-35 acquisition, restructuring procurement, service life extension of A-10/ F-16/ F/A-18/ etc, planning/ programming/budgeting of new aircraft. In the bigger picture, Mr Trump would bring new perspective as a driving force in overhauling defense acquisitions.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I agree, sir. I think the funds guided for the 35 with the Air Force should be redirected to those frames, as well as renewing the 22 - which was the next gen fighter of choice by the Air Force until the 35 got its push.
The 35 could NEVER be the CAS replacement it was pushed as being for the Force.
The 35 could NEVER be the CAS replacement it was pushed as being for the Force.
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Maj Walter Kilar
The F-22 and F-35 fulfill different roles, so the funding and requirements should not be mixed together--not in conversation, and not in the PPBE cycle. I would not rule out the F-35 as a "combat air support" or "not-quite-close air support" platform if the Air Force wants to apply a different set of strategies and tactics, but if the Army and Marines disagree with the Air Force's decision to move away from the joint doctrine of CAS and move to "combat air support"/ "not-quite-close-but-close-in-terms-of-new-technology air support" then the Air Force should not complain if the Army and Marines opt to build a new CAS platform and they have no ground to stand on if the Air Force is forced to do service life extension programs (SLEPs) on the A-10 until the Army and Marine CAS platforms are fielded. Again, I would hope that the new President and SecDef have new perspectives to bring to bear on defense acquisitions as demonstrated in the F-35 example.
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I don't think because he raised cost concerns for the F35 that Trump is going to scrap the program. We elected an alert businessman whose going to change the way the government makes purchases. There is going to be heavy scrutiny with all government expenditures. The old government attitude of spend it because we have it or we'll lose it next time is over.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Probably not scrap the whole program - especially seeing as how the Marines like it - but perhaps scaling it down to only those that want the bird have it and try to force it on those that don't.
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SSgt Ray McCaslin
Don't forget, the plane is being sold to other governments which is a plus point for Mr Trump because it helps to reduce our trade deficit.
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Maj (Join to see)
I sure hope you're right! That could be one of the best things a Pres. Trump does: revamp acquisitions such that we have more current technology/equipment and money to continue operations/mnx and supporting the people to operate it.
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MCPO Roger Collins
Given the many years to design, manufacture and test for field deployment, this is all we have. Look at the time and expense involved with this air frame and the Osprey. The F-35 is the bird of the immediate future and will be redesigned until it is acceptable.
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