Is the M16 that different from the M4?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:25:54 -0400

I went to the range to day for the first tome since basic training, 3 years ago, and did really poorly. I know it’s my own fault for not doing well but many people are telling me the M16 and M4 are really different to shoot. Contrary to my performance today I’m not a terrible shot.

They didn’t feel too different. The biggest change for me was using iron sites, as in basic we use CCOs. If anything I’d say that was part of my poor performance.

Are they that different? Different enough to go from shooting 32-34 targets with easy to not qualifying.

I know I need to fix it and I will. Also, anyone have any tips?

Response by PO1 H Gene Lawrence made Sep 25 at 2019 8:32 PM

PO1 H Gene Lawrence — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:32:51 -0400

More range time.

Response by SSG Michael Noll made Sep 25 at 2019 8:37 PM

SSG Michael Noll — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:37:42 -0400

Make sure you have a good zero first. Then go with the basics. I love shooting them but old eyes like optics and all of mine have something. Also try to stay with the same ammo at first.

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Sep 25 at 2019 8:40 PM

CW5 Jack Cardwell — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:40:28 -0400

Biggest difference barrel length and fixed versus collapsible stock. What were you shooting? If M16 what version?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2019 8:55 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:55:14 -0400

They're not that different. You have probably gotten rusty on some basic skills, due to lack of practice.

Check out the video I link, as it has the plainest instructions you'll get on proper shooting technique. You'll notice that the soldier demonstrating is wearing a presidents 100 tab. That is the elite of the elite as far as rifle marksmanship is concerned.
For my personal recommendations?
I recommend practicing the dry fire with a quarter balanced on the barrel. It will help you know how you're doing on trigger pull. Hold the weapon very tightly. The tighter you pull the rifle into your shoulder, the more you control the rifle, the less the rifle can move around.
Consider natural point of aim as well. You should be laying or kneeling in such a position that you can close your eyes, count to 5 re-open your eyes, and still be on target laterally. (You'll be off a little vertically) If you're not on, change your body position until you are. Practice until you naturally get into position.
With iron sights, making sure that you place your cheek against the stock in the same place every time is very important. The M68 is far more forgiving in that matter than irons are. Place your cheek in a position that you can find every time. It should also be a tight press. In basic I was taught to touch my nose to the charging handle. That way you're forced to take the same cheek weld each time. I don't like it, because it forces me I to a very uncomfortable position, but it works for some people.
I would also recommend reading TC 3-22.9. It has excellent, and quite up to date infor on rifle marksmanship. Reading it actually did help me become a better rifleman.
https://youtu.be/_6x1cLByjgw

Shooter's Corner: "Sight Alignment and Trigger Control"

Part 3 in a series. This time, SSG Andrew McElroy of the Army Marksmanship Unit goes over the two main firing tasks of Sight Alignment and Trigger Control. T...

Response by SPC Thomas Baldwin made Sep 25 at 2019 9:10 PM

SPC Thomas Baldwin — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 21:10:32 -0400

Make sure you zero the iron sites and maintain cheek to stock when aiming.

Response by CPL Dave Hoover made Sep 25 at 2019 10:34 PM

CPL Dave Hoover — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 22:34:07 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member What SSgt Private RallyPoint Member advised is spot on and PO1 H Gene Lawrence is correct. Technique and practice, technique and practice brother.

Response by TSgt David L. made Sep 25 at 2019 10:43 PM

TSgt David L. — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 22:43:36 -0400

Lots of good advice so far SPC Private RallyPoint Member, and a good video from SSgt Private RallyPoint Member. I'll just throw this out there and you can take it or leave it. Buy an AR-15 and go to the range once a month. It's pretty addictive and cheap to buy and shoot. Then you can follow the advice of the guys that offered it up. Trigger squeeze while keeping the sights aligned is probably the hardest part, but easy enough to achieve with practice.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2019 11:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 23:16:42 -0400

3 years? In what unit you are?.
Your poor performance is most likely because of lack of practice

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Sep 25 at 2019 11:54 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 23:54:18 -0400

I had to qualify with a M14. M16 was shit in nam

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 26 at 2019 12:30 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 00:30:10 -0400

If you are tall, the M4 can be too small to get a good steady hold and repeatable sight picture. I did not shoot the M4 well, but could shoot an M16A2.

Small arms marksmanship is perishable. Three year gap with no other marksmanship....yikes. Is there an Engagement Skills Trainer where you are? Book it through DPTMS and use the marksmanship training modules. You can shoot until you work out the fundamentals like breathing, consistent sight picture, steady hold, trigger squeeze, grouping. It can also show you in playback what you are doing whether you know it or not. No ammo, so you can just bang away until you've got it. You can also qualify on the EST, score card and all.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2019 12:36 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 00:36:52 -0400

Short answer, yes. Different. CCO to iron sights. Barrel length. Collapsing butt stock. Hand guards to the rail system. Did you use that grip attachment? Did you hold it the same? Use the block under the guards or barrel or not at all? More or less sling wrap around?

I strongly urge you speak to your FLL and such and bring up the SARG. Small Arms Readiness Group. Their training and fundamentals during NTC brought me from a 26 up to high 30's. Overall you'll need more range time and weapon familiarity.
Do you have access to the small sized laser ranges? Bore laser sights?
There are a lot of tips for this, just depends what you are doing and what fits best. Message me and I can give you all the details possible that I use every time and I use for coaching others.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Sep 26 at 2019 6:14 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 06:14:11 -0400

If you learned to shoot with a CCO and are now shooting with iron sights that is likely the difference. Ensuring you have good "dope" on your weapon, good check weld on the stock and other fundamentals is important. Zero the sights and then working on adjusting them based upon the distance you are shooting.

The only significant difference in the M4 and the M16 is barrel length. That could impact you at greater distances but not in close (less than 200 yards).

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Sep 26 at 2019 7:35 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:35:25 -0400

All other things being equal, the M16 should be more accurate since it has a longer barrel and a solid stock. If you aren't used to shooting with iron sights, there are a number of YouTube videos that can show you the basics. Hopefully, before you shot qualification, they ran you through a zero range. Also, remember that the rear peep sight as an aperture for zero and one to shoot. Many a soldier has failed shooting through the wrong sight. As a hint to pass, it's damn hard to see that 300 meter target through the peep and you don't have to shoot it to pass. Concentrate on shooting all of the closer ones first.
Trigger time makes for a better shooter. It's hard to find an M16 style AR around here, but if you can come up with one, range time will improve your shooting.

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Sep 26 at 2019 8:02 AM

MSgt Steve Sweeney — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:02:28 -0400

To practice trigger control at any time, get an angle-head flashlight - don't know if they still issue these - and tape a clothespin to the flashlight. You can pull it out just about anywhere (the flashlight) and practice your trigger squeeze. Just squeeze the clothespin as you would a trigger, and try to keep the light on the wall as steady as possible.

Response by PV2 Robert H. made Sep 26 at 2019 8:16 AM

PV2 Robert H. — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:16:29 -0400

I only fired the M4 in BCT. Irons vs CCO are very different. I qualified 40/40 with iron sights and only 37/40 with the CCO. I do not know if its because the CCO's we where using have been used and abused so much that even the slight recoil from the carbine could throw it out of zero, of if i just was not comprehending the optic, but i was constantly using Kentucky windage to make my shots with the CCO. irons i was on with every shot, every time. You just have to practice sight picture, breath control, trigger control, and cheek to stock. But bo amount of "tips and tricks" will make up for range time practice! If you cannot afford to spend hundreds on ammo to practice, they have lazer bullets now for dry fire practice. I recommend looking into that. It'll help with sight picture, breath, and trigger control. But again, nothing replaces true range time... as you need to be familiar with recoil and target sight alignment and re-alignment.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Sep 26 at 2019 9:04 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 09:04:34 -0400

Three years is a long time my friend. The fundamentals aren't really any different, but the skills are perishable. Things like running iron sights vs. optics, barrel length, and cheek weld all come into play...but the "cure" is time on the range. None of the above will matter if your sights aren't properly zeroed. If owning your own isn't practical at the moment, you might invest in a .22 and membership to a civilian range. If you can get your hands on something that closely resembles your service weapon in weight, form, and function...even better. If the .223 gets pricey, maybe consider an "AR" style rifle chambered for .22 long. If the money's less of a problem, consider a shooting coach...I did, and it paid off in spades.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Sep 26 at 2019 11:47 AM

CPL Gary Pifer — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 11:47:26 -0400

Depends on the day...sometimes you score high ...sometimes low. When I was younger in the 70's..USMC.. all the rifle range scores were fake including the PFT. I looked at my records...and rhought..when did I do that? The ANG did the same thing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2019 4:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 16:41:52 -0400

M4 is the updated, more improved, less malfunctioning model.