Is the Marine Corps to strict with its enforcement of "proper civilian attire" while off duty?

Capt Andrew Hairston — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 08:28:20 -0400

So (correct me if I'm wrong) there's no overarching policy or regulation from CMC or HQMC, but TECOM has their civilian attire policy which it seems like every other unit has adopted. I don't mind this, actually I think it makes perfect sense. If you're on a Marine Corps base or traveling for official business it's definitely great to have some guidelines to follow when out of uniform. I'm pretty sure TECOM created it with the thought of young kids from bootcamp or OCS in the back of their minds, not wanting to be embarrassed by their poor style choices.

Where I think it becomes problematic is once you're off-base in the comfort of your home and neighborhood. An example I'll use is the time I was given a hard time by another Marine when I was picking up food a few years ago, the only time this has happened. I left the gym and ordered food from a restaurant to go, and the other Marine tried to prevent me from walking in the "To-Go" door. My retort was do you know if I'm a Marine or just a civilian who likes to wear a fade.

That's my concern with this is you have Marines now attempting to blast people in public with no idea as to their service history or standing. I'm not saying Marines should be allowed to dress like bags of crap (if you're going out dress appropriately); but if you adhere to a business or institution's clothing policy, as lax as it may be, then what's the issue?

The Marine Corps has it's policy on base for good reason, but to try to enforce it out in town while not on duty is pretty invasive. It doesn't make sense to change over into a good set of clothes to take the car across the street to fill up the gas tank, or make a quick run to the hardware store in the middle of doing yard work. Those are just my thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours on this.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Jul 18 at 2020 9:12 AM

SSG Carlos Madden — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 09:12:12 -0400

This does sound like a overreaching and impractical policy. What is the intended purpose? How is it even enforced?

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Jul 18 at 2020 9:31 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 09:31:25 -0400

I thought it was stupid myself when the Marines first rolled it out around 2008-2010. Nobody challenged it though, everyone in the Marines just rolled over and accepted it. The only civilian clothing that the Marines should be concerned about on base or via those living in the barracks is what the Army is concerned about, inappropriately mixing Military clothing with Civilian clothing or improper wear of the PT uniform. Otherwise I think they are crossing the line as well into areas they shouldn't be doing so. Business casual dress is a real expense for a new Private, in my opinion and most of them do not arrive at MCRD wearing that or it no longer fits after the training. If the Marines are going to do that why aren't they concerned about the other side of the equation and buy better government furniture for the barracks rooms and common areas of the barracks that are more condusive to wear of such clothing? Turnabout is fair play in my opinion.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 18 at 2020 9:42 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 09:42:15 -0400

It has always existed within the military. Some locations more restrictive than others. Oversees, special duty etc. require stricter standards based on how one is representing the Military and Country.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Jul 18 at 2020 10:14 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:14:00 -0400

Simply put, quitchurbitchin. When I was in the time you could stop anywhere in fatigues, bdu, acu, pt shorts or whatever it's called now is NO PLACE. You couldn't stop for gas, pick up food, hit the 7-11, etc. If you stopped anywhere it had damn sure better be an emergency.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Jul 18 at 2020 10:16 AM

PO3 Donald Murphy — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:16:55 -0400

Bottom line is that the military is a huge HOA. When you're living on base, you're in their HOA. I would get "stopped" for walking too fast, hands in pockets, etc, WHILE IN CIVILIAN CLOTHES. And of course, that's cuz I was living on base in the barracks. Same if you shop on base. Had a "nothing-better-to-do" doo-gooder stop me two years ago at the commissary and tell me I needed a shave. I laughed it off and kept walking/shopping. Clown then followed me. Obvious at this point that he's serious...

"Wow - I'm really impressed that you think I'm still active active duty. Have a nice day doing your shopping..." Guy stood there speechless. I then showed my blue ID card. To make sure he understood. "You do realize retirees don't follow dress code, right?" Kept on walking at that point... Now that commissary command has allowed civilians to shop at the stores, this guy's gonna be really screwed...

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Jul 18 at 2020 11:11 AM

MSgt Steve Sweeney — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 11:11:52 -0400

Marine Corps Order (MCO) P1020.34G provides the overarching policy and directive on civilian attire. (Paragraph 1005). Keep in mind that the first sentence under Para 1005 is, "The CMC has extended the privilege of wearing civilian clothing to officers and enlisted Marines within the limitations of these regulations." - Wearing civilian clothes is a privilege, not a right.

Subordinate commands can enact regulations that are more restrictive than the MCO, and some do. I would have to see the TECOM policy to know exactly what is in dispute and how it applies to your case.

That said, often times regulations, like religion, can be open to interpretation and the exercise of the regulation is dependent on the judgement and attitude of the people attempting to enforce the regulation. There can be a lot of gray area between the letter and the spirit of the law. Much of the time the problem isn't with the regulation itself, but the interpretation and means of application.

Response by Sgt Jordan Foster made Jul 18 at 2020 11:19 AM

Sgt Jordan Foster — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 11:19:12 -0400

Yes, But the farther you stray away from base the more of a minority you become, and less people care.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2020 1:34 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 13:34:50 -0400

While overseas during non-combat deployments, the strict code actually made us stand out. Greece was off limits as a port of call due to terrorist activity which was targeting US military. The ship watch was denying debarkation if you didn't wear the correct attire. I understand the need or want for professionalism, but prudence may be the best approach. Wear what the locals wear, blend in, especially while engaged in asymmetric warfare against a very non-conventional enemy.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 18 at 2020 1:48 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 13:48:08 -0400

If you adhere to a business or institution's clothing policy, as lax as it may be, then what's the issue?

The issue is that Arby's doesn't set policy for for Marines. Had your Battalion XO or CO seen you going through that door (the only time it happened), would they have said you were in compliance with Marine Corps policy?

Now let's go back to the Marine who called you out. The next day he sees you on post, in uniform, and sees you are a Captain. What message did he just get about officers setting the example?

I was stationed at Camp Pendleton, and lived off-base in Fallbrook. The Base CG and Division CG decided to see if Marines off-base could handle a policy that allowed them to commute to and from their appointed place of duty in "utes and boots." Once you left base you were not allowed to stop and exit your vehicle in "utes and boots" until you got home. Once you got home you were expected to to change into appropriate attire.
"But sir, I was almost out of gas."
"But sir, I was just picking up a pizza for dinner."
"But sir, I just stopped to pick up a video for the night."
"But sir, I needed a pack of smokes."

The experiment didn't last 30 days.

Officers were not allowed to wear blue denim. Even outside at their on-base MOQ residence. I work on my own car. Unless I kept the garage door closed, I better be in slacks, or serviceable coveralls. Once I got on-base quarters, I had the last house in Company grade Country. My Battalion XO lived two doors down and the S-3 lived across the street. I never once saw them in blue denim, and if they were PT'ing they were in clean serviceable PT uniforms. And we never had Marines call us out for our attire. Even in an establishment full of high and tights, everyone was pretty sure who were officers and SNCO's and who were not.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jul 18 at 2020 4:03 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 16:03:36 -0400

All right, I'll give you an opinion from an old fart who drew his first issue of uniforms 54 years ago at Parris Island. Not only did I get clothing that was appropriate for any situation, but a seabag that it could be carried in that protected the clothing like a civilian suitcase. When my compatriots and I went home on leave after we completed our post recruit infantry training, we wore our A Greens for two reasons; first, as has been cited in this string, we only made $90 a month and didn't have the money to go out and get muftis, and secondly, we got a discount off the train fare if we were in uniform. If the Corps wanted you to have civilian clothing, they would issue them to you as they do those assigned to Embassy duty. As time went on, and, quite frankly, we started being harassed by anti war protestors, they started allowing us to travel out of uniform, but as always happens, some Marines started traveling in clothing that made them look more like hippies than Marines and the Corps became more restrictive regarding what civilian clothing we could wear. The CMC expected we would adhere to the same standards of dress we were taught in basic training. We would PT prior to breakfast, but a shower and change out of PT gear was scheduled before we went to the chow hall out of courtesy to the others eating there who may not have wanted to eat their meal sitting next to a platoon of sweaty, smelly Marines who had just done their daily dozen exercises. When we left training, you didn't go to the Commissary or Exchange in a dirty uniform because it was considered inappropriate to mingle with the dependents and retirees (of course it hadn't been long since the ladies were expected to be in dresses and wear gloves to the clubs).
The same standards applied off base. Marines are recognizable. Even 30 years after I retired, as a 73 year old with my now bearded face and civilian haircut, living four hours from the nearest base, more than once I am told "you're a Marine aren't you?". It's not my clothing or grooming, it's the way we carry ourself.
So I disagree. While on active duty you are no less a Marine no matter where you are, and the fact is, if you adhere to those basic standards of hygiene and dress, there will rarely be an occasion where you will be inappropriate.

Response by LTC Erik Spike Thiesmeyer, Sr. made Jul 18 at 2020 5:25 PM

LTC Erik Spike Thiesmeyer, Sr. — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 17:25:16 -0400

What about the veteran who keeps their hair in regulation? Will we be stopped by the "fashion police"? And who decides what's inappropriate civilian attire? In Oceanside, CA people might be in swim suits/board shorts and flip flops. It's summer time. Will they treat female service members the same? I think they have no business enforcing civilian clothing standards off base.

Response by Cpl Benjamin Long made Jul 18 at 2020 10:55 PM

Cpl Benjamin Long — Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:55:41 -0400

Depends on the command

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2020 7:29 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 19:29:08 -0400

The only places I have seen strict enforcement is while aboard a base or overseas on liberty. As far as your example it use to be relevant before 1020.34h which states "Within the confines of a military base or a DoD installation, civilian clothing will be worn subject to local regulations." Updates have basically only ruled out items considered inappropriate due to not being conservative in nature and not wearing a belt if you have belt loops.

Response by SgtMaj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2021 11:38 PM

SgtMaj Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 23:38:14 -0500

Great question!
Most of the so-called leaders(Managers frankly speaking) who enjoy “blasting” Marines especially in public are zombies who have drowned in the kool-Aid. They are the types who have more years on the drill field than the operating force. Disclaimer: I spent about 7 years on the drill field as well. In this day and age, we need to blend into our environments by lowering our profiles as much as possible. Most of us who grew up in the ground side care about intangibles that will save your life in combat...situation awareness, presence of mind, et al..One of the sayings in my community was “ Be like Water” as in conforming with your surroundings so as not to stand out. We will always have them in our Corps; No need to loose your bearings to a robot! We need them in the force to help keep our junior ranks in line.
Thanks for the question/comment!

Response by MSG Bob Goble made Nov 28 at 2021 3:05 PM

MSG Bob Goble — Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:05:40 -0500

Some of the can or can't rules for uniform or civilian attire are downright ridiculous.

Response by 1LT Katherine Hubbard made Feb 16 at 2023 2:43 PM

1LT Katherine Hubbard — Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:43:03 -0500

It’s too, as in too strict. More strict than necessary.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Aug 20 at 2023 10:46 AM

1SG James Kelly — Sun, 20 Aug 2023 10:46:49 -0400

They let you wear them.
Shut up.